RE: [WSG] What version of IE should be build to

[Chris Williams]

Completely agreed.

IMHO, * html works just fine when used as intended

(in conjunction with a conscientiously applied program of oral hygiene
and regular professional care...) :)

-Original Message-
From: Lachlan Hunt
Subject: Re: [WSG] What version of IE should be build to

Don't get sucked into that nonsense about not using 
* html for anything. 


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Re: [WSG] What version of IE should be build to

[Lachlan Hunt]

Ted Drake wrote:

Don't use * html! That won't work.


Yes, it will work!  Don't get sucked into that nonsense about not using 
* html for anything.  Assuming you're using standards mode and you only 
want to target IE6 and earlier, * html is just fine.  The only time it 
is not appropriate is when the hack is still required for IE7.


Unfortunately, there are still some hacks required for IE7, which have 
traditionally used * html as the filter, and that is what has caused 
many sites to break.  It is *not* a problem with * html itself, but 
rather the way it is used.


(Of course, the usual warnings about only using hacks as a last resort 
in favour of a hack-free solution still apply)


--
Lachlan Hunt
http://lachy.id.au/


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Re: [WSG] What version of IE should be build to

[Jan Brasna]

Who knows what future problems may come with *html?


Future problems when targeting back to particular (dead) browsers do not 
bother me.


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Jan Brasna :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com | www.wdnews.net


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RE: [WSG] What version of IE should be build to

[Ted Drake]

I would still advise that you use the *property/_property hack instead of *
html. 

I don't have anything to point to other than some discussions with the IE7
folks and it's what they recommend.  Well, they're not going to recommend
any hacking. But they downplay * html.  I'd prefer to go with something that
has unofficial head nodding than something they plead that people don't use.

Who knows what future problems may come with *html?

Ted


-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of John Faulds - Tyssen Design
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 3:32 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] What version of IE should be build to

> Technically, I can see you using the * html inside an IE only style  
> sheet.

I've been doing that a bit lately as sometimes there may be only one or  
two rules that are different between <= 6 or 7 and it doesn't seem worth  
the effort creating a separate stylesheet for both and then conditional  
comments to call the two when * html will do the job just the same.

-- 
Tyssen Design
Web & print design services
www.tyssendesign.com.au
Ph: (07) 3300 3303
Mb: 0405 678 590


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Re: [WSG] What version of IE should be build to

[John Faulds - Tyssen Design]

Technically, I can see you using the * html inside an IE only style  
sheet.


I've been doing that a bit lately as sometimes there may be only one or  
two rules that are different between <= 6 or 7 and it doesn't seem worth  
the effort creating a separate stylesheet for both and then conditional  
comments to call the two when * html will do the job just the same.


--
Tyssen Design
Web & print design services
www.tyssendesign.com.au
Ph: (07) 3300 3303
Mb: 0405 678 590


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Re: [WSG] What version of IE should be build to

[Jan Brasna]

Technically, I can see you using the * html inside an IE only style sheet.


That is what I was writing about.

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Jan Brasna :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com | www.wdnews.net


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RE: [WSG] What version of IE should be build to

[Ted Drake]

Technically, I can see you using the * html inside an IE only style sheet.
However, it is a bad idea to use it in general. There are a lot of sites
breaking because people depended on *html, many I've built included. 

When I see someone suggest using it, my gut reaction is to say, no. Don't
use *html because it is an outdated hack. Use conditional comments and if
you have to use a hack, the *property and _property are two hacks that can
be used dependably with IE6 and IE7

Ted



-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Jan Brasna
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 10:41 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] What version of IE should be build to

> Don't use * html! That won't work.

How comes? You maybe didn't understand what I meant.

-- 
Jan Brasna :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com | www.wdnews.net


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Re: [WSG] What version of IE should be build to

[Jan Brasna]

Neither #header nor a#logo have *tiled* backgrounds.


Sorry, thought you meant PNGs placed on top of a tiled background.


Yup, I thought so ;) The issue is when you'd need the actual transparent 
background to repeat, then you can't use the filter. It would be handy 
in various stretching/collapsing boxes, shrinking headers, or just 
translucent shadows etc.


--
Jan Brasna :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com | www.wdnews.net


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Re: [WSG] What version of IE should be build to

[Jan Brasna]

Don't use * html! That won't work.


How comes? You maybe didn't understand what I meant.

--
Jan Brasna :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com | www.wdnews.net


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Re: [WSG] What version of IE should be build to

[Nick Fitzsimons]

On 21 Sep 2006, at 17:55, Ted Drake wrote:


No no no no no

Don't use * html! That won't work.



* html will work to separate IE6 rules from IE7 rules, as IE7 no  
longer understands it (given that it's parsing in strict mode). See



Regards,

Nick.
--
Nick Fitzsimons
http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/





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RE: [WSG] What version of IE should be build to

[Ted Drake]

No no no no no

Don't use * html! That won't work.

If you need to separate the browsers, use *border and _border on the
individual styles.

Ted




-Original Message-
From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Jan Brasna
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 9:21 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] What version of IE should be build to

> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: [WSG] What version of IE should be build to

[Jan Brasna]

RE: [WSG] What version of IE should be build to

[Ted Drake]

I've had significant, if not too much experience with IE7 and transparent
png behaviors. 
http://last-child.com/index.php?s=ie7+transparent+png 


Here's what I would suggest. 

IE6 is going to become a minor player for the majority of web sites within a
year. Microsoft has an aggressive schedule planned to get people to upgrade
to IE7. There are significant security issues that have been solved with the
new browser and it is going to be a high priority upgrade. That said, you
need to code your css for IE7, not IE6.

When it comes to transparent png images, IE7 will behave the same as firefox
and Safari as of IE7 RC1.  The bug I reported with the transparent png
sprites has been fixed.  You should create an IE6 style sheet and import
that via a conditional comment:  I have found that IE7 still needs you to
invoke hasLayout and the double margin float bug. You could either create a
new IE7 specific style sheet or add a couple innocuous styles to your main
style sheet.
To invoke hasLayout use {zoom:1}. Don't use height:1% anymore. IE7 will
treat that correctly.
To avoid double margin float issue, add {display:inline;} to your floated
objects.

Other than that, you may have some box-model issues left in your IE7 style
sheet.  Personally, I'm a fan of keeping your hacks out of the main style
sheet. However, it is an extra http:request for the majority of your
customers. That is a trade off you need to evaluate.

Here's the conditional comment code

Re: [WSG] What version of IE should be build to

[Matthew Pennell]

On 9/21/06, Jan Brasna <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Neither #header nor a#logo have *tiled* backgrounds.


Sorry, thought you meant PNGs placed on top of a tiled background.


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Re: [WSG] What version of IE should be build to

[Jan Brasna]

Issue with the filter is that it can't be applied to tiled background.


Works fine on my site.


Neither #header nor a#logo have *tiled* backgrounds.

--
Jan Brasna :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com | www.wdnews.net


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Re: [WSG] What version of IE should be build to

[Doug Wigginton]

In my CSS book, the author speaks about handling this issue by providing alternate images in GIF format for IE browsers and specifying these in a supplemental IE-targeted style sheet.
The gif images might represent a slightly degraded design, but the idea is that the site is still workable.
 
There are many ways to target specific browers in your CSS , for testing you could even use:
 
.someBackground { background-image:url(myfile.png) } !important

.someBackground { background-image:url(myfile.gif) } 
 
Most Non-IE browsers will recognize and use the style marked !important while IE will not and then use the GIF.
 
This is not the ultimate best practices solution but it's start. 
On 9/21/06, Matthew Pennell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 9/21/06, Jan Brasna <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > IE7 handles transparent PNGs, and IE5.5 and 6 can use a proprietary> > filter to display them correctly.>> Issue with the filter is that it can't be applied to tiled background.>
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Re: [WSG] What version of IE should be build to

[Matthew Pennell]

On 9/21/06, Jan Brasna <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> IE7 handles transparent PNGs, and IE5.5 and 6 can use a proprietary
> filter to display them correctly.

Issue with the filter is that it can't be applied to tiled background.



Works fine on my site.


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Re: [WSG] What version of IE should be build to

[Jan Brasna]

IE7 handles transparent PNGs, and IE5.5 and 6 can use a proprietary
filter to display them correctly.


Issue with the filter is that it can't be applied to tiled background.


The stats I have (massive europe-wide company dealing directly with
all types of consumer) is that IE5 is below 0.1%, IE5.5 around 1.2%
and IE6 still at 85-90% usage.


In entry analysis for our recent client (publishing company, technical 
book store) we found that IE5 is 1.2% which means approx. the same as 
Safari - it is a bit disappointing.


--
Jan Brasna :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com | www.wdnews.net


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Re: [WSG] What version of IE should be build to

[Matthew Pennell]

On 9/21/06, Able Net Design <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

So does anyone have a hack for transparent png's or do the later versions of
IE come inline with FF

What version of IE is mostly used?


IE7 handles transparent PNGs, and IE5.5 and 6 can use a proprietary
filter to display them correctly.

The stats I have (massive europe-wide company dealing directly with
all types of consumer) is that IE5 is below 0.1%, IE5.5 around 1.2%
and IE6 still at 85-90% usage.


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[WSG] What version of IE should be build to

[Able Net Design]

I'm playing around with some lovel web 2.0 inspired 
layouts, and found out that ie5 can't handle transparent png's. I also came 
across some z-index problems with IE
 
FF has no problems which is great.
 
So does anyone have a hack for transparent png's or 
do the later versions of IE come inline with FF
 
What version of IE is mostly used?
 
Kind Regards,
Tristan

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