Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise
Pick up a copy of Bulletproof web design by Dan Cederholm It's a sweet little book, and has a nice section on the usage of a dl, next to plenty of other standards based design examples. http://www.simplebits.com/publications/bulletproof/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/simplebitsdan/sets/663014/ Its example code === div id=sweden dl dtStockholm/dt dd class=imgimg src=img/gamlastan.jpg width=80 height=80 alt=Gamla Stan //dd ddThis was taken in Gamla Stan (Old Town) in a large square of amazing buildings./dd /dl dl dtGamla Uppsala/dt dd class=imgimg src=img/uppsala.jpg width=80 height=80 alt=Gamla Uppsala //dd ddThe first three Swedish kings are buried here, under ancient burial mounds./dd /dl dl dtPerpetual Sun/dt dd class=imgimg src=img/watch.jpg width=80 height=80 alt=Wristwatch //dd ddDuring the summer months, the sun takes forever to go down. This is a good thing./dd /dl /div === You can download the book's sourcecode from the site. There's some (unhelpful) preview on safari : http://safari.oreilly.com/0321346939/ch04?imagepage=69#X2ludGVybmFsX1NlY3Rpb25Db250ZW50P3htbGlkPTAzMjEzNDY5MzkvY2gwNGxldjFzZWMyJmltYWdlcGFnZT03NQ== Been there too, explaining my design decisions to the uninitiated... JJ On 10/12/06, Tee G. Peng [EMAIL PROTECTED]: -- Halans Jean-Jacques New Zealand Journal : http://nz.halans.be Honeymoon Australia : http://oz.halans.be *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise
At 10/11/2006 07:08 PM, Thierry Koblentz wrote: I'd agree it is rare to see more than one DT but not to see multiple DDs. Come on, you guys, revisit the spec: ___ W3C HTML 4.01 Specification 10 Lists 10.3 Definition lists: the DL, DT, and DD elements http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/lists.html#h-10.3 !-- definition lists - DT for term, DD for its definition -- ... Here is an example with multiple terms and descriptions: DL DTCenter DTCentre DD A point equidistant from all points on the surface of a sphere. DD In some field sports, the player who holds the middle position on the field, court, or forward line. /DL ___ It's clear that multiple terms and multiple definitions are part of the spec. It's all about a structure designed to describe multifaceted objects in linguistic space. It's made for describing things in the real world of human endeavor. It's simplistic because it's only got two types of facet, but it's not limited in the number of each it can support. Regards, Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise
Come on, you guys, revisit the spec: Or for those who have spec-aversion: http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/definition/ :) Russ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise
Paul Novitski wrote: At 10/11/2006 07:08 PM, Thierry Koblentz wrote: I'd agree it is rare to see more than one DT but not to see multiple DDs. Come on, you guys, revisit the spec: Revisit my post :) I said it was less common than a succession of DDs Out of Russ's 7 examples [1] there is not one with 2 DTs following each other ;) [1] http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/definition/ --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise
On 10/12/06, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Revisit my post :) I said it was less common than a succession of DDs Out of Russ's 7 examples [1] there is not one with 2 DTs following each other ;) [1] http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/definition/ My problem with this programmer is that he did not use the word common, but rather standard. As if to imply that Tee's use of definition lists is something she pulled out of a hat from magical css-web4.0 land* that should never be used in a production environment. Maybe I'm being a little extreme here, but I'm just looking at what standard means to someone from the programming world. * I plan to move there soon. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise
On Oct 11, 2006, at 1:13 PM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: What I'm saying is: the definition list is fine, the additional proposed use of a DL and a UL is probably fine as well, and you could even treat it as a small table (as long as appropriate headings are given for both columns and rows). I see! Thank you for the clarification. Jough made a good suggestion however, in regard with my markup, I have a question here, that a site nature is driven by pictures (products posted by members, and members' photos), it seems to me that image has higher emphases then text; also, we human eyes tend to draw first attention to image than text, so, in a situation that the image itself = the name. I do not feel Jough's proposal appropriate as adding UL for total posts and overall score, and moving person_profile to a div class throw away the structure. Why? I couldn't explain better than Nick showed us: dl class=member_profile dtAvatar Image/dt ddHAS-A username Orang Utandd ddHAS-A total post count of 1012/dd ddHAS-AN overall score of 3028/dd /dl Jough's reason was that the members 'name' defines his/her image. But to me, Orang utan is the 'image' of her, they do not define each other. I did not read the DL spec from W3C site when I worked on that markup, and was not aware I could use two dt in dl. My consideration was that the 'image' has higher emphases over the 'name', so placing image in dt was appropriate at that time of my thinking. Now I suppose I can do dl class=person_profile dtimg src=images/pic-temp.gif alt=p width=26 height=26 / /dt dt class=namea href=#Orang utan/a/dg dd class=postsa href=#1012/a total posts/dd dd class=scroea href=#3028/a overall score/dd /dl - On Oct 11, 2006, at 4:21 PM, Nick Lo wrote: In short the arguments that appear to be coming from the programmer do not make a lot of sense. I say appear as you do not seem to have spoken to the programmer directly which is something I'd encourage you to try and do if possible. The root problem here seems to be not a DL but a lack of a communication path between those involved in the work which will undoubtedly lead to confusion and wasted effort. Yes, you are correct. I do not have direct communication with the programmmer(s). Client started giving me many CSS coding assignments for this site since 3 months ago, never was once she returns with a feedback that my code has problem. The markup that was replaced was the first assignment I received for the site and I did not hear anything until two days ago I found out myself. Now it does seem a bit strange to me, that if my markup is not standard practice by client's client's in-house programmers, why they would agreed to have my client kept sending me more assignments. Still haven't hear from client for the explanation. I guess I just have to move on. Oh, and I forgot to give credit to Russ. He showed me how to do 3 columns layout in DL :) http://www.maxdesign.com.au/jobs/rating/index.htm Russ, I humbly recommend you make a link for above example to this page http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/definition/ It's in my bookmark and I have visited it so many times. I remember when I wanted to do the 3 column layout you showed me, I went to your definition page to look for example. Found none, so I posted the question, and was very grateful you response. Sincerely, tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise
Tee G. Peng wrote: Client came back that the member profile markup was replaced because her client's programmer said dl is not standard practise. She also questioned my choice of the new markup with definition list again, she said she can't submit it to her client therefor needs an explanation from me so that she can bring it with her to the meeting. Alright Tee, Definition lists are pretty cool but is it standard practice to have multiple dds ? That might be what they were getting at. You can nest almost anything inside a dd so that might be another solution. Do you know what the scripts will be doing with the markup e.g. resizing, hiding, doing backflips etc..? Divs are more stable for playing with css properties so that might be why. Annoying as it may be. Rob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise
On 10/11/06, Rob O'Rourke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tee G. Peng wrote: Client came back that the member profile markup was replaced because her client's programmer said dl is not standard practise. She also questioned my choice of the new markup with definition list again, she said she can't submit it to her client therefor needs an explanation from me so that she can bring it with her to the meeting. Alright Tee, Definition lists are pretty cool but is it standard practice to have multiple dds ? Yes. Divs are more stable for playing with css properties so that might be why. Playing with CSS properties always works regardless of the tag, as long as it is a block by default in this case. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise
On Oct 11, 2006, at 11:01 AM, Rob O'Rourke wrote: Alright Tee, Definition lists are pretty cool but is it standard practice to have multiple dds ? That might be what they were getting at. You can nest almost anything inside a dd so that might be another solution. Rob, Cool was not the intention I use definition list for that member profile. I also do not think you can nest almost everything inside a dd in this layout. http://project.lotusseedsdesign.com/test/user1.html Do you know what the scripts will be doing with the markup e.g. resizing, hiding, doing backflips etc..? I don't know. If you are interested, I can send you the site's url offlist. Can't post it on public though as I afraid I may lose my job :) tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise
Christian Montoya wrote: On 10/11/06, Rob O'Rourke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tee G. Peng wrote: Client came back that the member profile markup was replaced because her client's programmer said dl is not standard practise. She also questioned my choice of the new markup with definition list again, she said she can't submit it to her client therefor needs an explanation from me so that she can bring it with her to the meeting. Alright Tee, Definition lists are pretty cool but is it standard practice to have multiple dds ? Yes. Cool Divs are more stable for playing with css properties so that might be why. Playing with CSS properties always works regardless of the tag, as long as it is a block by default in this case. Well yeah but its never that straightforward though, I've been messing with dls inside forms recently and there are loads of IE quirks and cross browser differences even before adding any scripts. I'm just offering suggestions as to why the programmer might have said its not standard. I don't think its right to make a judgement about their html abilities without more info from Tee. Take it easy, Rob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise
dl class=person_profile dtimg src=images/pic-temp.gif alt=p width=26 height=26 / /dt dd class=namea href=#Orang utan/a/dd dd class=postsa href=#1012/a total posts/dd dd class=scroea href=#3028/a overall score/dd /dl I hate to bring this up because it will probably start one heck of an argument, but I would like to give my opinion on the semantics of this particular project. In some rare occasions multiple dd's are necessary to define a particular dt, but I do not think that is the case here. The members 'name' definitely defines his/her image, but do 'total posts' and 'score' define the image as well? Personally, I would recommend the following. div class=person_profile dl dtimg img src=images/pic-temp.gif alt=p width=26 height=26 //dt dda href=#Orang utan/a/dd /dl ul lia href=#1012/a total posts/li lia href=#3028/a overall score/li /ul /div Just my two pennies... Jough *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise
Rob O'Rourke wrote: Divs are more stable for playing with css properties so that might be why. Playing with CSS properties always works regardless of the tag, as long as it is a block by default in this case. Well yeah but its never that straightforward though, I've been messing with dls inside forms recently and there are loads of IE quirks and cross browser differences even before adding any scripts. Strange, I've never had issues like that with DLs...unless some bits of CSS got lost in the leaky internet tubes. Do you have any more info on this? Patrick -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise
Jough wrote: I hate to bring this up because it will probably start one heck of an argument DL is a badly (or rather, fluffily) designed construct, so there are probably 100s of ways to skin that particular cat (or orang utan). P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise
On Oct 11, 2006, at 12:44 PM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: so there are probably 100s of ways to skin that particular cat (or orang utan). Patrick, please enlighten me, so that next time I can do a better job. tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise
Tee G. Peng wrote: Patrick, please enlighten me, so that next time I can do a better job. What I'm saying is: the definition list is fine, the additional proposed use of a DL and a UL is probably fine as well, and you could even treat it as a small table (as long as appropriate headings are given for both columns and rows). Personally, I wouldn't see any problem just with the DL. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise
Title: Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise Tee, As patrick says wheb it comes to dl usage there are plenty of ways to skin the cat. The question to ask is a dl appropriate? If yes then the point moves to the programmers familiarity with the dl construct. Because generally through lack of knowledge it is not a common construct, but the point to relay is that this doesn't make it wrong. - Original Message - From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org listdad@webstandardsgroup.org To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wed Oct 11 20:56:10 2006 Subject: Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise On Oct 11, 2006, at 12:44 PM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: so there are probably 100s of ways to skin that particular cat (or orang utan). Patrick, please enlighten me, so that next time I can do a better job. tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]***
Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise
Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Rob O'Rourke wrote: Well yeah but its never that straightforward though, I've been messing with dls inside forms recently and there are loads of IE quirks and cross browser differences even before adding any scripts. Strange, I've never had issues like that with DLs...unless some bits of CSS got lost in the leaky internet tubes. Do you have any more info on this? Patrick I do indeed, its a combination of lost CSS (the tubes round here are FULL of holes) and too much CSS dependency going on (bad habit of mine). The problems were with a liquid form layout I was doing for a new cms with tooltips floated left and the labels and form controls in regular flow inside the dd's. Plus nearly everything had % widths which doesn't make things any easier for IE. Anyway, fluid stuff and floats can cause some issues if the CSS is not specific enough but quirksmode sorted it all out in the end. Rob (random css department) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise
On 10/11/06, Rob O'Rourke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The problems were with a liquid form layout I was doing for a new cms with tooltips floated left and the labels and form controls in regular flow inside the dd's. Plus nearly everything had % widths which doesn't make things any easier for IE. Anyway, fluid stuff and floats can cause some issues if the CSS is not specific enough but quirksmode sorted it all out in the end. Ah, sounds like issues with liquid and floats, which like to conflict with Javascript, which tends to work well only with things that have exact dimensions and are static. One way or another, the problem is not with the DLs, and I can't imagine why the programmer *can't* do this with DLs at all. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise
If the programmer's markup had been better than the example you gave then it would be ok to be picky about whether a DL is the best choice. However it isn't. DL is of course a standard that is included in the W3C spec. I do agree though, with Patrick's comment; DL is a badly (or rather, fluffily) designed construct in that a DL is vague enough to be used in a lot of circumstances. Even the specs are pretty loose: Definition lists vary only slightly from other types of lists in that list items consist of two parts: a term and a description. The term is given by the DT element and is restricted to inline content. The description is given with a DD element that contains block-level content. ... Another application of DL, for example, is for marking up dialogues, with each DT naming a speaker, and each DD containing his or her words. I personally always think of each DD of being in a HAS-A or IS-A relationship with it's DT so if we take a soccer player: dl class=player dtPlayer One/dt ddIS-A player for Team Uniteddd ddIS-A midfield player/dd ddHAS-A goal score record of 200/dd /dl In object-oriented programming terms these DD's are a little like the properties of an object and the DT is an instance of the object. In just the same way I see your listed items as defining the member in the context of this web application: dl class=member_profile dtAvatar Image/dt ddHAS-A username Orang Utandd ddHAS-A total post count of 1012/dd ddHAS-AN overall score of 3028/dd /dl In short the arguments that appear to be coming from the programmer do not make a lot of sense. I say appear as you do not seem to have spoken to the programmer directly which is something I'd encourage you to try and do if possible. The root problem here seems to be not a DL but a lack of a communication path between those involved in the work which will undoubtedly lead to confusion and wasted effort. Anyway, hope that helps a little, Nick On 12/10/2006, at 3:13 AM, Tee G. Peng wrote: A while ago I did a small layout (member profile) that looks like this for client for a social bookmarking application in Rails framework: http://project.lotusseedsdesign.com/test/user1.html I had it style in definition lists. Few days ago I was asked to add three tabs to the member profile, and a new section to a page that looks similar to above layout, except that it's two column, an image, title and descriptions. I had it style with definition list again with the image floated to left. dl class=person_profile dtimg src=images/pic-temp.gif alt=p width=26 height=26 / /dt dd class=namea href=#Orang utan/a/dd dd class=postsa href=#1012/a total posts/dd dd class=scroea href=#3028/a overall score/dd /dl When adding markup for three tabs to the member profile section, I realized my markup for member profile was replaced to div class=stats div class=detailspan class=labelTotal Posts/span div class=stat a href=#1437/a/div /div div class=detail span class=labelOverall score/span /div div class=stat a href=#39679/a/div /div and so on... and for some reason, it trigged the text disappearing bug in IE that was not fixed. I fixed it, told client and asked why my markup was not used (not that my ego bruised, but why they wasted money on me if they don't use the code) Client came back that the member profile markup was replaced because her client's programmer said dl is not standard practise. She also questioned my choice of the new markup with definition list again, she said she can't submit it to her client therefor needs an explanation from me so that she can bring it with her to the meeting. I told her I cannot explain better than the W3C has for the specification of Definition Lists, so I will just quote from there http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html#h-10.3 a) definition lists can contain multiple terms or definitions b) that definition lists can also be used for other applications, for example, a dialogue. and looking at the content: a picture name of the person total posts of the person overall score of the person. I couldn't think how I would have it markup otherwise, except maybe: div h3Orang utan/h3 pimg src=images/pic-temp.gif alt=p width=26 height=26 / /p p1012 total posts/p p3028 overall score/p /div Ever-since I work for this client, I realize many things I have learned about web standards have great difficulty to apply to web application that the contents are fed by users; so that have been confusion, doubts (about certain things you guys treated as top rules) and compromises. I am
Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise
I use definition lists to markup the semantics of name/value pairs. Can anyone suggest a better way of representing that a relation exists between two elements? - nello Nello Lucchesi The October Group, Ltd. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] programmmer said: difination list not a standard practise
Jough wrote: I hate to bring this up because it will probably start one heck of an argument, but I would like to give my opinion on the semantics of this particular project. In some rare occasions multiple dd's are necessary to define a particular dt, but I do not think that is the case here. The members 'name' definitely defines his/her image, but do 'total posts' and 'score' define the image as well? I don't agree with this definition (no pun intended) of a DD. DDs do not define the DT (the D stands for Description). I'd agree it is rare to see more than one DT but not to see multiple DDs. --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
