Perl is dead
In response to Ovid's post on use.perl: http://davehodg.blogspot.com/2008/12/perl-is-dead.html -- Dave HodgkinsonMSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Site: http://www.davehodgkinson.com UK: +44 7768 490620 Blog: http://davehodg.blogspot.comNL: +31 654 982906 Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/davehodg
Re: Perl is dead
On Wed 3.Dec'08 at 17:55:55 +, Dave Hodgkinson wrote: In response to Ovid's post on use.perl: http://davehodg.blogspot.com/2008/12/perl-is-dead.html Is there really no Ruby or Python on that list? pgpVMIO4lShST.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Perl is dead
On 3 Dec 2008, at 18:13, Jesse Vincent wrote: On Wed 3.Dec'08 at 17:55:55 +, Dave Hodgkinson wrote: In response to Ovid's post on use.perl: http://davehodg.blogspot.com/2008/12/perl-is-dead.html Is there really no Ruby or Python on that list? There weren't on the original list. Fixed. Perl at least kicks the ass of the upstarts. -- Dave HodgkinsonMSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Site: http://www.davehodgkinson.com UK: +44 7768 490620 Blog: http://davehodg.blogspot.comNL: +31 654 982906 Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/davehodg
Re: Perl is dead
On 2008-12-03 18:13, Jesse Vincent [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed 3.Dec'08 at 17:55:55 +, Dave Hodgkinson wrote: In response to Ovid's post on use.perl: http://davehodg.blogspot.com/2008/12/perl-is-dead.html Is there really no Ruby or Python on that list? At risk of being somewhat london-centric, how many jobs have you seen advertised for python down here recently? In the past year or so I've seen about 5 python jobs advertised (at least that I've noticed). Alongside this there have been a large number of perl jobs, a handful of ruby jobs and a surprisingly large amount of PHP jobs. It all depends what you're after. Certainly, to get employed in london, you shouldn't be focusing on python since the jobs just aren't really there. Most of the ruby jobs (usually rails) are startups that will die a couple of months in or those gigs the BBC can't seem to get rid of. Perl may have taken a huge hit with the banks going bust but it's still going (albeit somewhat wounded). On the other hand, the PHP market is brilliant, just for the most part it pays pretty badly (and you have to work with PHP...). --James
Re: Perl is dead
according to the info on the site, perl skills offer higher rates than most of the top 20 skills. -- Live in a world of your own, but always welcome visitors.
Re: Perl is dead
On Dec 3, 2008, at 18:37, Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 3 Dec 2008, at 18:13, Jesse Vincent wrote: On Wed 3.Dec'08 at 17:55:55 +, Dave Hodgkinson wrote: In response to Ovid's post on use.perl: http://davehodg.blogspot.com/2008/12/perl-is-dead.html Is there really no Ruby or Python on that list? There weren't on the original list. Fixed. Perl at least kicks the ass of the upstarts. For now. I do see that changing though. The other languages have their problems, but they have strengths that shouldn't be ignored. I had a really long example here, comparing python, perl and ruby, but I decided to hold there delete key on my iPhone for 5 mins to delete it. It's irrelevent. Even by your numbers, python an ruby combined are sneaking up on perl. WHY are they popular? They're not new. Python's been around for a long time, and I believe ruby has too. They've solidified their community, which doesn't just stick to the old way of doing things. (I can't believe I'm saying this next bit..) Javascript, Ajax, animated gifs, flash, embedded java applets. These are all GOOD things. The rest of the world likes them. Geeks might not, but ours is not the opinion which matters. Ovid's right. We should be taking a long hard look at ourselves and asking questions. Are we evolving? If not, why not? If we wanted to, what could we change? I do t think we really know what to change or how to change it.
Re: Perl is dead
On Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 06:42:14PM +, James Laver wrote: going bust but it's still going (albeit somewhat wounded). On the other hand, the PHP market is brilliant, just for the most part it pays pretty badly (and you have to work with PHP...). And, as conversations on IRC seem to be suggesting, you sometimes have to work with the things designed by people who self-taught themselves programming with PHP. Not that there isn't crack out there in the world of codebases written in Perl. Or, I suspect, in any other language. Except, maybe, APL. Nicholas Clark
Re: Perl is dead
On Wed, 3 Dec 2008, James Laver wrote: Most of the ruby jobs (usually rails) are startups that will die a couple of months in or those gigs the BBC can't seem to get rid of. not that there are any spare ruby programmers to go round anyway. Although hopefully this is changing soon with lots more startups going bust.($work are looking for at least 2 more currently(we even have paying customers(not that this is the place for job ads))) -- Bob Walker http://london.randomness.org.uk - http://tech.randomness.org.uk http://rwc.randomness.org.uk- http://londonjoinery.com for great beery justice!- meh! bah! indeeed!
Re: Perl is dead
2008/12/3 Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Wed 3.Dec'08 at 17:55:55 +, Dave Hodgkinson wrote: In response to Ovid's post on use.perl: http://davehodg.blogspot.com/2008/12/perl-is-dead.html Is there really no Ruby or Python on that list? There weren't on the original list. Fixed. Perl at least kicks the ass of the upstarts. Those stats are based on all skill keywords, not just languages though, programming as a keyword is only 20% or something on it, so you could extropolate that all the programming languages could be multipiled by 3 or 4 times. They are also non exclusive - the 15.1% of jobs listing SQL will include a large share of all other languages listed below it. A. -- http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting
Re: Perl is dead
On Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 06:42:14PM +, James Laver typed: At risk of being somewhat london-centric, how many jobs have you seen advertised for python down here recently? In the past year or so I've seen about 5 python jobs advertised (at least that I've noticed). Alongside this there have been a large number of perl jobs, a handful of ruby jobs and a surprisingly large amount of PHP jobs. Python seems more popular in the USA than UK from speaking with people at conferences. There have been a small number of test framework-type python roles here but not many. I suspect Django may increase the number of python roles but Rails has been popular (as has Catalyst). I like Python and I wish it were more widely used. -- Steve Mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Perl is dead
On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 7:42 PM, Steve Mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 06:42:14PM +, James Laver typed: At risk of being somewhat london-centric, how many jobs have you seen advertised for python down here recently? In the past year or so I've seen about 5 python jobs advertised (at least that I've noticed). Alongside this there have been a large number of perl jobs, a handful of ruby jobs and a surprisingly large amount of PHP jobs. Python seems more popular in the USA than UK from speaking with people at conferences. There have been a small number of test framework-type python roles here but not many. I suspect Django may increase the number of python roles but Rails has been popular (as has Catalyst). I like Python and I wish it were more widely used. It's a singular datapoint, but to answer the how many python jobs.., I would ask how many engineers has Google hired in London in the last few years? It's *one* job application with lots of hires, many of whom will have to use python at some point. Other companies have probably done the same. But I don't believe the same is true with Perl. Perl is fairly well entrenched. It's available everywhere. But Python is still growing and has a lot of headroom. Most people have tried Perl. The number trying Python and Ruby instead is growing. Fast. I like Python too and wish the same. I like that is enforces structure. I'd donate a kidney if perl could be made to do that.
Re: Perl is dead
On 2008-12-03 20:10, Avleen Vig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's a singular datapoint, but to answer the how many python jobs.., I would ask how many engineers has Google hired in London in the last few years? It's *one* job application with lots of hires, many of whom will have to use python at some point. Other companies have probably done the same. But I don't believe the same is true with Perl. Perl is fairly well entrenched. It's available everywhere. But Python is still growing and has a lot of headroom. Most people have tried Perl. The number trying Python and Ruby instead is growing. Fast. I like Python too and wish the same. I like that is enforces structure. I'd donate a kidney if perl could be made to do that. It's not the place of a language to do that, it's a case of Don't be an idiot when writing code. I've seen crappy python and other code often enough, you can't fix it inside the language, you have to fix the programmer. --James
Re: Perl is dead
On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 8:16 PM, James Laver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I like Python too and wish the same. I like that is enforces structure. I'd donate a kidney if perl could be made to do that. It's not the place of a language to do that, it's a case of Don't be an idiot when writing code. I've seen crappy python and other code often enough, you can't fix it inside the language, you have to fix the programmer. I completely agree. But by the same token, make it easier for the programmer. The reason we code in perl instead of assembler, is because perl makes it easier. I don't think that any harm is done in this particular case (enforcing style). Does it breed lazy programmers? I don't think so. The less I have to worry about small but important things like style/readability/documentation, the more I can focus on writing good code.
Re: Perl is dead
On 3 Dec 2008, at 17:55, Dave Hodgkinson wrote: In response to Ovid's post on use.perl: http://davehodg.blogspot.com/2008/12/perl-is-dead.html SQL's not a programming language like the others are. It's a minilanguage, like regular expressions or formats, so can be discounted. The rest add up to 47.9%, so if we divide by 47.9% we get a lower bound on the number of jobs listing a given language because some job adverts will list more than one language. That implies that at least one in thirty jobs that involve programming require Perl. So no, not dead. Just keeping quiet in the corners. I also note that JobStats is written in this dead language.
Re: Perl is dead
Dave Hodgkinson wrote: In response to Ovid's post on use.perl: Also see this lively discussion in Reddit. http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/7h3pa/perl_5_is_dying/ A
Re: London.pm Dim sum Thursday 1pm: Bamboo Basket
2008/12/1 Léon Brocard [EMAIL PROTECTED]: This is today! Who's coming? Bamboo Basket Westfield London Shephard's Bush Tube Station http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=W127SL http://uk.westfield.com/london/find/detail/dining?category=2020retailer=35482 http://uk.westfield.com/london/find/map/dining?category=2020retailer=35482 Léon, London.pm Dim Sum Mandarin
Re: [ANNOUNCE] December social - Bridge House, SE1 - Thurs 4 Dec
2008/12/1 Kake L Pugh [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hello! The December social of the London Perlmongers is this Thursday, 4th December. We're going back to the Bridge House, which is the Adnams place at the south end of Tower Bridge. We have the upstairs function room booked from 6:30pm. This is today! See you there ;-) It's a short walk from both London Bridge and Tower Hill stations. People who prefer buses have the choice of the RV1, 42, 47, 78, 188, 343, or 381. Maps, more info, etc: http://london.randomness.org.uk/wiki.cgi?Bridge_House,_SE1_2UP The pub has a full range of well-kept Adnams beers, Aspall cider, and good food. The upstairs bar will be staffed for us. Standard blurb: Social meets are a chance for the various members of the group to meet up face to face and chat with each other about things - both Perl and non-Perl - and newcomers are more than welcome. The monthly meets tend to be bigger than the other ad hoc meetings that take place at other times, and we make sure that they're in easy to get to locations and the pub serves food (meaning that people can eat in the bar if they want to). They normally start around 6.30pm (or whenever people get there after work) and a group tends to be left come closing time. If you're a newcomer or other first timer (even if you've been lurking on the mailing list or on IRC) then please seek Leon out - we have a tradition that the leader of this motley crew buys the new people a drink (orange or not, either's fine) and introduces them to people. Léon, London.pm Leader
