Re: Perl publishing and attracting new developers
On 20/09/2013 00:21, Peter Corlett wrote: You clearly disagree. I'm also cool with that. I doubt that, judging by the tone of your replies. However, your petulant whinges on this mailing list aren't going to achieve anything, except perhaps to add your name to a few killfiles. If you are so passionate about seeing new niche Perl books written as you are making out, you had better fire up your editor and get cracking. Or to use an infamous Perl acronym, STFUAWSC. Except C stands for "copy". Oh well, I should have known better than to engage in discussion with someone whose email address begins with "abuse". Have a nice life. gvim
Re: Perl publishing and attracting new developers
On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 4:21 PM, Peter Corlett wrote: > > If somebody new discovers Perl and uses it, that's great. If they don't, I'm > cool with that too. Well if perl doesn't attract new developers, and the existing user base is a diminishing set, perl will eventually run out of developers. But maybe you don't care about that too, and you'll be alone in your shed with your aging perl binary Commodore 64... ;) Paul
Re: Perl publishing and attracting new developers
On 20/09/2013, at 9:21, Peter Corlett wrote: > If you are so passionate about seeing new niche Perl books written as you are > making out, you had better fire up your editor and get cracking. Many publishers prefer msword ;)
Re: Perl publishing and attracting new developers
On 19 Sep 2013, at 20:39, gvim wrote: [...] > Again, it's not about me. It's about what's out there in other scripting > languages and how that affects mindshare for new Perl developers. The REST > example was used only to make a point. The fact that you can get by on RFCs > and 15-year-old CGI books is irrelevant. A lot of new developers look at > what's on the (virtual) bookshelves and get a sense of which languages are > more active. So what? The Perl community is not a cult or dotcom hell-bent on growth. If somebody new discovers Perl and uses it, that's great. If they don't, I'm cool with that too. You clearly disagree. I'm also cool with that. However, your petulant whinges on this mailing list aren't going to achieve anything, except perhaps to add your name to a few killfiles. If you are so passionate about seeing new niche Perl books written as you are making out, you had better fire up your editor and get cracking. Or to use an infamous Perl acronym, STFUAWSC. Except C stands for "copy".
Re: Perl publishing and attracting new developers
On 19/09/2013 19:28, Peter Corlett wrote: As it happens, I own a copy of "REST in Practice". I fished it out > of my "to read" pile and given it a quick skim. The handful of > examples within are in C# and Java, but it's not called "RESTful APIs > with C#/Java" for a reason: this is a book about REST itself and > some of the common RESTful protocols, not a programming textbook. For similar reasons (I assume) the excellent "The Art Of Unit Testing" has "with examples in .NET" printed in a much smaller font, in grey, in a light weight typeface, on a white background: http://tinyurl.com/osherove-unit-testing-1e The language is irrelevant. That link, incidentally, is to the first edition, which is a very good book indeed. There's a second edition out next week, which I've not seen. -- David Cantrell | Reality Engineer, Ministry of Information NANOG makes me want to unplug everything and hide under the bed -- brian d foy
Re: Perl publishing and attracting new developers
On 19/09/2013 19:28, Peter Corlett wrote: I don't think a book published purely in German is that relevant. People who speak Mandarin, Hindi or Spanish no doubt have much the same opinion of books published purely in English. Relevant as in relevant to solving the suggested dearth of applied Perl titles. I didn't ask which books you would like to exist to sit unsold in bookshops on the off-chance they might influence other people's opinion. I asked which books you would buy with your own money. The original post raised the issue of what is available to new developers in terms of generating mindshare for Perl as a choice of language. I've been in Perl for a while so it's not about me. That you apparently desire this book to also include a tutorial on the various Perl APIs so as to spoon-feed the exact answers says more about you and/or your opinion of other developers than the state of the Perl publishing market. Again, it's not about me. It's about what's out there in other scripting languages and how that affects mindshare for new Perl developers. The REST example was used only to make a point. The fact that you can get by on RFCs and 15-year-old CGI books is irrelevant. A lot of new developers look at what's on the (virtual) bookshelves and get a sense of which languages are more active. gvim
Re: Perl publishing and attracting new developers
On Sep 19, 2013 2:39 PM, "Peter Corlett" wrote: > > On 18 Sep 2013, at 21:03, gvim wrote: > > On 18/09/2013 18:48, Peter Corlett wrote: > >> > >> Dancer and Mojolicious are lightweight, DBIx::Class only slightly less so, and are not separately enough material for a full-sized book. At best, you're talking a 100 page print-on-demand labour of love. > > I've come across no less than 3 Sinatra books so why should a Dancer book be considered lightweight? > > Sinatra is a library used for constructing web frameworks. Oh, and look, I see Lincoln Stein's CGI.pm book right there on my shelf. Sure, it's an awful book, but I bet at least two of those Sinatra books are as well. > > >> Mojolicious and Moose *have* such a book, and although I can't find the ISBN for the Moose book, Mojolicious's is http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/3848200953/improtripe-21. > > I don't think a book published purely in German is that relevant. > > People who speak Mandarin, Hindi or Spanish no doubt have much the same opinion of books published purely in English. > > [...] > > The "and Perl" makes all the difference. If I'm a new developer choosing a language and I see "RESTful APIs with Python/PHP/Ruby" and nothing from Perl it may influence my choice of language even if there is a chapter tucked away in a Catalyst book somewhere. Whether it's marketing or not, Ruby and Python are taking the initiative, as I see it, by producing plenty of books which combine the language with another technology. You may not like it but it seems to interest developers. > > I didn't ask which books you would like to exist to sit unsold in bookshops on the off-chance they might influence other people's opinion. I asked which books you would buy with your own money. > > As it happens, I own a copy of "REST in Practice". I fished it out of my "to read" pile and given it a quick skim. The handful of examples within are in C# and Java, but it's not called "RESTful APIs with C#/Java" for a reason: this is a book about REST itself and some of the common RESTful protocols, not a programming textbook. > > That you apparently desire this book to also include a tutorial on the various Perl APIs so as to spoon-feed the exact answers says more about you and/or your opinion of other developers than the state of the Perl publishing market. Well hold on just a minute there. One of the primary reasons Perl got to be hugely popular is exactly because books like Programming Perl and Learning Perl spoonfed the answers to new users. If the science of learning has taught us anything, it's that spoonfeeding answers in a constructive learning environment works very well. It isn't for seasoned programmers who are comfortable with just reading api docs, but my understanding of this thread is that we're talking about more junior programmers who would benefit from learning in a more spoonfed way. There's nothing wrong with that.
Re: Perl publishing and attracting new developers
On 18 Sep 2013, at 21:03, gvim wrote: > On 18/09/2013 18:48, Peter Corlett wrote: >> >> Dancer and Mojolicious are lightweight, DBIx::Class only slightly less so, >> and are not separately enough material for a full-sized book. At best, >> you're talking a 100 page print-on-demand labour of love. > I've come across no less than 3 Sinatra books so why should a Dancer book be > considered lightweight? Sinatra is a library used for constructing web frameworks. Oh, and look, I see Lincoln Stein's CGI.pm book right there on my shelf. Sure, it's an awful book, but I bet at least two of those Sinatra books are as well. >> Mojolicious and Moose *have* such a book, and although I can't find the ISBN >> for the Moose book, Mojolicious's is >> http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/3848200953/improtripe-21. > I don't think a book published purely in German is that relevant. People who speak Mandarin, Hindi or Spanish no doubt have much the same opinion of books published purely in English. [...] > The "and Perl" makes all the difference. If I'm a new developer choosing a > language and I see "RESTful APIs with Python/PHP/Ruby" and nothing from Perl > it may influence my choice of language even if there is a chapter tucked away > in a Catalyst book somewhere. Whether it's marketing or not, Ruby and Python > are taking the initiative, as I see it, by producing plenty of books which > combine the language with another technology. You may not like it but it > seems to interest developers. I didn't ask which books you would like to exist to sit unsold in bookshops on the off-chance they might influence other people's opinion. I asked which books you would buy with your own money. As it happens, I own a copy of "REST in Practice". I fished it out of my "to read" pile and given it a quick skim. The handful of examples within are in C# and Java, but it's not called "RESTful APIs with C#/Java" for a reason: this is a book about REST itself and some of the common RESTful protocols, not a programming textbook. That you apparently desire this book to also include a tutorial on the various Perl APIs so as to spoon-feed the exact answers says more about you and/or your opinion of other developers than the state of the Perl publishing market.
Re: Perl publishing and attracting new developers
On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 2:49 AM, Philippe Bruhat (BooK) <
philippe.bru...@free.fr> wrote:
> Some of the secret ops are actually awesome, used in production code,
> and deserve to be better known. From the top of my head: 0+ !! @{[]} ()x!!
>
Seriously. Perl's lack of a string eval interpolation operator (à la Ruby's
#{...}) is a real hole in the language.
Paul
[ANNOUNCE] London Perl Workshop: Call for Papers Deadline
Dear All, *TALK DEADLINE* This is your countdown notice that lets you all know that the deadline for submitting a talk to the London Perl Workshop is rapidly approaching. This year the date of Friday the 25th October has been chosen. The theme for the London Perl Workshop will be Decadon: A Decade of the London Perl Workshop. It will focus on the past ten years of the London Perl Mongueurs and the London Perl Workshop, and will focus on the manner in which Perl is used in the commercial world and the strength of Perl for development in an enterprise environment; we would also like to see talks on the usage of Perl in the past 25 years and the evolution of the environment. You can use any aspect of Perl such as Camelia, Rakudo, Raptor, etc. Speakers are invited to talk on any subject that relates to this theme, though we will also accept talks on other subjects. This year we hope to have access to three Workshop rooms and would like to run as many workshops as possible to introduce new users to the world of Perl and to refresh the skills of those wishing to engage with the latest developments in the Perl world. If you wish to submit a workshop please use the same submission form as the talks, please note that workshops will be 60, 120 or 240 minutes in length. *REGISTRATION* Once again I would like to inform you all that early registration is incredibly beneficial to the event. It allows us to judge numbers for the sponsored coffee, snacks and evening social event. Please sign up early and please help us spread the word. This year there is a second level to registration. We have tickets. All attendees need to state what ticket level they would like to have, this includes speakers. There is no barrier to entry and you should feel free to take the £0 ticket if you wish to do so. However, we also have 3 ticket levels above this (£25, £50 and £100) these voluntary ticket amounts wil contribute directly towards the hosting of this event and if we reach certain targets other special things in the coming year. Please make sure you select the ticket you want. We will also be collecting donations, as per last year, for a number of special Perl projects on the day. *SPONSORS* As always we would like to have as many sponsors as possible, not just for their valuable contribution to the holding of the event but as participants at the Workshop. If you know of anyone who wishes to sponsor the London Perl Workshop please have them contact Mark as soon as possible. As always we look forward to seeing you all at the Workshop on the 30th November. This is the 10th anniversary of the London Perl Workshop and we should mark this year with a special event. Regards Mark Keating (Overlord in Residence, LPW Organising team)
Re: Perl publishing and attracting new developers
On 18 September 2013 17:01, Paul LeoNerd wrote: > On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:45:10 +0100 > Peter Corlett wrote: > >> If you don't agree, do feel free to give the titles of a few >> hypothetical Perl books that you would be prepared to pay £30 for. > > Asynchronous Perl - > Achieving large-scale parallel concurrency without paying large > costs in shared memory or fine-grained locking. > > I would be prepared to pay £30 to write such a book. +1 me too -- Aaron J Trevena, BSc Hons http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk LAMP System Integration, Development and Consulting
Re: Perl publishing and attracting new developers
Trolling aside, I've come to an understanding about this recently which can best be described thus: Peel has entered the Erlang stage of its life cycle. It is a very capable language, which became popular at a time when there was a great need for the things it provided. Since then it has seen less and less use in the areas of industry which have had the most rapid growth (mostly web development and operations). Ruby and php pretty much dominate that sphere. Python has a decent foothold in parts of academia. Also a lot of this comes down to money. Guido, Rasmus, Matz all push the developments in their languages as part of their day jobs. They work at some pretty high profile places too. Larry? I honestly don't know what Larry does. And surprisingly I could find out quickly either. Yes, a lot of banks and other places use Perl, and Perl is not dying as so many like to proclaim. But it needsa lot of push from the top, a lot of evangelism, and more, faster development. Otherwise people just kinda lose interest, you know? Perl is fine. I don't think there will be some great Perl revival but it's not going away either. On Sep 18, 2013 8:24 AM, "gvim" wrote: > I don't mean to troll. In fact, to quote Stevan Little, "I totally asshat > Perl" :) but when I saw this today: > > http://wegotcoders.com > > ... I couldn't help thinking Perl is getting left behind. > > A contributing factor seems to be the narrow range of Perl books published > in recent years despite the Modern Perl renaissance. If you look at the > number of Ruby/Rails/Sinatra and Python books published in the last 5 years > compared with Perl the contrast is stark. There are stacks of Ruby and > Rails books covering very specialised applications. Perl books, by > contrast, tend to be just general tomes - Perl Best Practices, Programming > Perl, Modern Perl, Pro Perl etc. We have one decent web framework book on > Catalyst by Apress, if you discount the first effort by Packt, compared > with stacks of Rails and Sinatra books. > > Take a look at these new, vibrant publishing companies: > > www.leanpub.com > www.pragprog.com > > Not a single Perl title. Surely Moose, Mojolicious or Dancer would have > been a candidate? > > Something's gone wrong. Is it that publishers are not interested in > publishing Perl books or that Perl authors aren't writing about interesting > and specific applications of Perl? > > gvim >
Re: Perl publishing and attracting new developers
$20-30 per hour that should say. Why don't mailing lists have an edit button? On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 11:05 PM, Kieren Diment wrote: > think about $20-30 and at least one day out of your life per week for 6 > months to work on the book. It's not lucrative, but I found the whole > experience fun and rewarding. Except for the day when I wrote around 4000 > words and felt quite mentally unstable at the end. The following day I > threw at least 3/4s of that work out. > > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 11:01 PM, Kieren Diment wrote: > >> think about $6k for having at least one day of your life per week full >> time for six months. >> >> On 19/09/2013, at 10:01 PM, Peter Corlett wrote: >> >> On 19 Sep 2013, at 12:21, Chris Jack wrote: >> [...] >> >> - it would be more apparent how little money is sometimes available for >> the >> effort of writing a book >> >> >> >> I don't know the exact figures, but it's roughly a four figure sum for a >> reasonably successful Perl book. And given that one is having to resort to >> Kickstarter because no publisher will touch it does not bode well. >> >> To write such a book involves many months of work. In comparison, >> somebody skilled enough to write said book could also go contracting and >> make the same amount of money in a few weeks. It's a fair comparison, since >> writing books is also effectively contracting. >> >> I would very much like such a Kickstarter to be a success, but >> realistically it is likely to tank. >> >> >> >> >> >
Re: Perl publishing and attracting new developers
think about $20-30 and at least one day out of your life per week for 6 months to work on the book. It's not lucrative, but I found the whole experience fun and rewarding. Except for the day when I wrote around 4000 words and felt quite mentally unstable at the end. The following day I threw at least 3/4s of that work out. On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 11:01 PM, Kieren Diment wrote: > think about $6k for having at least one day of your life per week full > time for six months. > > On 19/09/2013, at 10:01 PM, Peter Corlett wrote: > > On 19 Sep 2013, at 12:21, Chris Jack wrote: > [...] > > - it would be more apparent how little money is sometimes available for the > effort of writing a book > > > > I don't know the exact figures, but it's roughly a four figure sum for a > reasonably successful Perl book. And given that one is having to resort to > Kickstarter because no publisher will touch it does not bode well. > > To write such a book involves many months of work. In comparison, somebody > skilled enough to write said book could also go contracting and make the > same amount of money in a few weeks. It's a fair comparison, since writing > books is also effectively contracting. > > I would very much like such a Kickstarter to be a success, but > realistically it is likely to tank. > > > > >
Re: Perl publishing and attracting new developers
On 19 Sep 2013, at 12:21, Chris Jack wrote: [...] > - it would be more apparent how little money is sometimes available for the > effort of writing a book I don't know the exact figures, but it's roughly a four figure sum for a reasonably successful Perl book. And given that one is having to resort to Kickstarter because no publisher will touch it does not bode well. To write such a book involves many months of work. In comparison, somebody skilled enough to write said book could also go contracting and make the same amount of money in a few weeks. It's a fair comparison, since writing books is also effectively contracting. I would very much like such a Kickstarter to be a success, but realistically it is likely to tank.
Re: Perl publishing and attracting new developers
Abigail wrote: > I'd call them niche books. If generic books don't sell, why would niche books? A thought. One way of mitigating the risk of writing a book that might not sell could be to use cloud funding (e.g. kickstarter.com). This would have a number of advantages: - it would make it much clearer if a subject/author combination were worth the effort - people could contribute to the writing of a book they think deserves to be written even if they don't want it (possibly at a contribution level less than that of people actually getting the book) - people could contribute more than the cost of the book in return for additional perks - it would be more apparent how little money is sometimes available for the effort of writing a book Chris
Re: Perl publishing and attracting new developers
On Wed, Sep 18, 2013 at 04:19:18PM +0100, gvim wrote: > On 18/09/2013 15:57, Jason Clifford wrote: >> >> I wonder whether part of the answer to this question lies in the fact >> that the things that could be covered in Perl books about frameworks, >> Moose, etc are fairly well documented and that the documentation is >> easily available. > > Ruby and Rails are well documented: > > http://ruby-doc.org/ > http://rubyonrails.org/documentation > > ... but the books sell very well. > >> All of this is not to say there are no new books. There is a new edition >> of Mastering Perl on the way. >> > > Considering the last edition was published in 2007 I would rather have > seen a new Perl Cookbook, Object-Oriented Perl or, better still, some > new titles on specific applications of Perl, eg. Perl for Android (ok, > ok but you get my drift), Perl REST APIs or Web Development with > Dancer/Mojolicious. I'd call them niche books. If generic books don't sell, why would niche books? What type of books about other languages sell well? Is it the more generic books, or limited subject books you're proposing? If I look at my two shelves of Perl books, there's only one Perl book I've actually used when programming, and that's the Perl/Tk book (but the last time was probably 10 years ago). And then mostly because I didn't go along with the Perl/Tk manual pages. The other books I've used to do Perl programming don't contain a shred of Perl, and the authors may be completely unaware of existance of a language called Perl. Advanced Programming in the UNIX Environment has, for me, always been the best book to help my Perl programming. Abigail
Re: Perl publishing and attracting new developers
On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 08:46:35PM +1200, Kent Fredric wrote:
> On 19 September 2013 19:41, Philippe Bruhat (BooK)
> wrote:
>
> > That book needs a chapter about the secret operators. ;-)
>
>
> I disagree, I don't see much value in promoting esoteric ways to use Perl.
>
> We just need to promote things that are good, and things that are awesome,
> and things that make programming in Perl *better*, things that serve as
> compelling arguments to use a more modern Perl, things that serve to
> inspire people to use more *CPAN*
>
I was merely reacting to the proposed "You don't know Perl" title,
and thought the smiley expressed how deeply serious I was on the topic.
On the other hand ,"Advanced Perl Programming, 2nd Edition" had a chapter
devoted to "Fun with Perl", mentioning golf, obfuscated Perl and the
Acme:: namespace. These things are also part of the Perl community, so
maybe a book "targeted explicitly at people who think they know Perl,
but aren't really part of the perl community" should mention them.
Some of the secret ops are actually awesome, used in production code,
and deserve to be better known. From the top of my head: 0+ !! @{[]} ()x!!
--
Philippe Bruhat (BooK)
Friendship is just brotherhood with a choice of brothers.
(Moral from Groo #9 (Image))
Re: Perl publishing and attracting new developers
On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 9:46 AM, Kent Fredric wrote: > On 19 September 2013 19:41, Philippe Bruhat (BooK) > wrote: > >> That book needs a chapter about the secret operators. ;-) > > > I disagree, I don't see much value in promoting esoteric ways to use Perl. > > We just need to promote things that are good, and things that are awesome, > and things that make programming in Perl *better*, things that serve as > compelling arguments to use a more modern Perl, things that serve to > inspire people to use more *CPAN* I'm actually inclined to write such a book. Anyone interested in coauthoring please message offlist and we can see if there's any mileage in it. James
Re: Perl publishing and attracting new developers
On 19 September 2013 19:41, Philippe Bruhat (BooK) wrote: > That book needs a chapter about the secret operators. ;-) I disagree, I don't see much value in promoting esoteric ways to use Perl. We just need to promote things that are good, and things that are awesome, and things that make programming in Perl *better*, things that serve as compelling arguments to use a more modern Perl, things that serve to inspire people to use more *CPAN* -- Kent
Re: Perl publishing and attracting new developers
On 19 September 2013 08:41, Philippe Bruhat (BooK) wrote: > On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 05:26:17AM +1200, Kent Fredric wrote: >> Maybe an interesting, and uniquely disruptive topic for a book could be >> "You don't know Perl" ( or something along those lines... > That book needs a chapter about the secret operators. ;-) That was my initial reaction, but: >>... a book with a similar intent to Modern Perl I think it actually doesn't. osf'
Re: Perl publishing and attracting new developers
On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 05:26:17AM +1200, Kent Fredric wrote: > On 19 September 2013 03:04, Nicholas Clark wrote: > > > Maybe "everyone" already feels that they know Perl well enough to blag an > > interview. > > > > Maybe an interesting, and uniquely disruptive topic for a book could be > "You don't know Perl" ( or something along those lines ), a book with a > similar intent to Modern Perl, ... but targeted explicitly at people who > think they know Perl, but aren't really part of the perl community, people > who learnt Perl from reading horrible scripts that have been copy pasted > around the internet. That book needs a chapter about the secret operators. ;-) -- Philippe Bruhat (BooK) Trust only in incompetence. You will never be disappointed. (Moral from Groo The Wanderer #16 (Epic))
