Re: Perl Skills Test
On Saturday, November 5, 2011, Zbigniew Łukasiak zzb...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 3:14 PM, Dave Cross d...@dave.org.uk wrote: Interesting question from a training client: Do you know of a general Perl skills test (on-line or paper) that we could give to our Perl developers before you turn up. The idea is that the output could feed into the training you are doing for us. I don't[1]. Does anyone else have any ideas? I suppose I could write something. But I don't really have time. I don't want to get into the whole certification issue. That's not what this is about at all. I guess it might be too late - but codility.com has among others also Perl tests. These are on-line, automated tests where you write a short script and they run it against some precompiled input data and test for correctness and that they finish in some reasonable time. The tests are not meant to find the best candidate in the crowd - but only to filter out those that cannot code at all and I believe they are pretty efficient in that. For a full disclosure - I know the founder personally and I envy his business idea. While I just wonder how good his sandbox is.
Re: Perl Skills Test
On Sun, Nov 06, 2011 at 07:36:28AM +, Piers Cawley wrote: On Saturday, November 5, 2011, Zbigniew ??ukasiak zzb...@gmail.com wrote: For a full disclosure - I know the founder personally and I envy his business idea. While I just wonder how good his sandbox is. spoj.pl seems to have managed reasonably well so far. (Recommended, by the way.) R
Re: Perl Skills Test
On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 3:14 PM, Dave Cross d...@dave.org.uk wrote: Interesting question from a training client: Do you know of a general Perl skills test (on-line or paper) that we could give to our Perl developers before you turn up. The idea is that the output could feed into the training you are doing for us. I don't[1]. Does anyone else have any ideas? I suppose I could write something. But I don't really have time. I don't want to get into the whole certification issue. That's not what this is about at all. I guess it might be too late - but codility.com has among others also Perl tests. These are on-line, automated tests where you write a short script and they run it against some precompiled input data and test for correctness and that they finish in some reasonable time. The tests are not meant to find the best candidate in the crowd - but only to filter out those that cannot code at all and I believe they are pretty efficient in that. For a full disclosure - I know the founder personally and I envy his business idea. -- Zbigniew
Re: Perl Skills Test
On 30 Sep 2011, at 21:42, Wendy G.A. van Dijk wrote: Well, just the one... and that goes against my statement (which is enclosed...)... ...that this is actually a very helpful book for people who want to interview prospective employees and want to find out more about their Perl skills. Not all of the questions (and answers) in the book are of the desirable extreme high quality, but the majority is good enough to find out wether the prospective employee has any Perl skills or none, and even what level of skilfulness is in there. Anybody who needs more than a few Perl developers can use this book, aided by some really good Perl developers, to adapt the questions to the desired highest possible level and find out the exact level of Perl skills of the prospective developers. In the interview situation, I give them an obfuscated piece of code on paper and ask them what it does. If they get it, I'll probably just hire them on the spot. If not, I'll deobfuscate it a little and ask again, and so on and forth until they get it. Generally if they get it in 3 or 4 iterations i'm quite happy, and that gives flexibility for people who are good but have nerves etc. That is of course no use to the OP, who wanted to weed people out in advance... (code sample available privately on request if anyone is interested) /j
Re: Perl Skills Test
On 29/09/2011 01:30, Paul Tweedy wrote: != true I'm afraid. They just have the temerity to not live in (and are unable to move to) the south east or near a major city. If you want to be a fisherman, it helps to live near the sea. If you want to be a fisherman and not live near the sea and then complain about it, fine, but don't expect many others to be sympathetic.
Re: Perl Skills Test
On 29/09/2011, at 5:32 PM, Simon Cozens wrote: On 29/09/2011 01:30, Paul Tweedy wrote: != true I'm afraid. They just have the temerity to not live in (and are unable to move to) the south east or near a major city. If you want to be a fisherman, it helps to live near the sea. If you want to be a fisherman and not live near the sea and then complain about it, fine, but don't expect many others to be sympathetic. Remote opportunities are quite good once you have a reputation and a network of contacts ... In this case the sea is the intertubes and the fish are TCP/IP packets I suppose.
Re: Perl Skills Test
On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 05:40:25PM +1000, Kieren Diment wrote: On 29/09/2011, at 5:32 PM, Simon Cozens wrote: On 29/09/2011 01:30, Paul Tweedy wrote: != true I'm afraid. They just have the temerity to not live in (and are unable to move to) the south east or near a major city. If you want to be a fisherman, it helps to live near the sea. If you want to be a fisherman and not live near the sea and then complain about it, fine, but don't expect many others to be sympathetic. Remote opportunities are quite good once you have a reputation and a network of contacts ... In this case the sea is the intertubes and the fish are TCP/IP packets I suppose. feeding the forty thousand with TCP/IP packets and intertubes ...? An allegory for our times perhaps Regards L.
Re: Perl Skills Test
On 29 September 2011 08:40, Kieren Diment dim...@gmail.com wrote: On 29/09/2011, at 5:32 PM, Simon Cozens wrote: On 29/09/2011 01:30, Paul Tweedy wrote: != true I'm afraid. They just have the temerity to not live in (and are unable to move to) the south east or near a major city. If you want to be a fisherman, it helps to live near the sea. If you want to be a fisherman and not live near the sea and then complain about it, fine, but don't expect many others to be sympathetic. Remote opportunities are quite good once you have a reputation and a network of contacts ... In this case the sea is the intertubes and the fish are TCP/IP packets I suppose. Just to bring the discussion bang up-to-date, one of the friends in question has just accepted a 6 month remote working contract. Not so much 'get on your bike' than 'get on your kitchen table'. So all is well for him and his family, for 6 months at least. -- paul tweedy p...@70cities.net http://70cities.net
Re: Perl Skills Test
On 29/09/2011, at 6:17 PM, lesleyb wrote: On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 05:40:25PM +1000, Kieren Diment wrote: On 29/09/2011, at 5:32 PM, Simon Cozens wrote: On 29/09/2011 01:30, Paul Tweedy wrote: != true I'm afraid. They just have the temerity to not live in (and are unable to move to) the south east or near a major city. If you want to be a fisherman, it helps to live near the sea. If you want to be a fisherman and not live near the sea and then complain about it, fine, but don't expect many others to be sympathetic. Remote opportunities are quite good once you have a reputation and a network of contacts ... In this case the sea is the intertubes and the fish are TCP/IP packets I suppose. feeding the forty thousand with TCP/IP packets and intertubes ...? Well in my case feeding the 4, otherwise you seem to be correct :) An allegory for our times perhaps Regards L.
Re: Perl Skills Test
On 28 September 2011 13:54, David Cantrell da...@cantrell.org.uk wrote: On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 01:27:41PM +0100, Victoria Conlan wrote: Auntie is ALWAYS looking for perl people. ALWAYS. Really? I've been shunted into a non-programming job for the last year precisely because they aren't. We are. We had someone start just a coupla days ago, and we're still looking for MOAR PEEPUL. We're still looking for 3 more perl devs at headforwards btw - to join our 2 teams of 3 and 4 devs. not in london, but very nice location ;) A. -- Aaron J Trevena, BSc Hons http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk LAMP System Integration, Development and Consulting
Re: Perl Skills Test
For purposes of comparison, do these other firms pay better for perl programmers than the BBC? I was under the impression they all paid about the same. Ian Knopke On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 4:44 PM, Nicholas Clark n...@ccl4.org wrote: On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 04:07:50PM +0100, Paul Tweedy wrote: I know three people (all good engineers) who lost their jobs this year and are struggling to find work, so I find it hard to complain about any sort of adjustment to my salary in the current climate. I'm not sure how to respond to that, other than it made me stop and think, and Yes, good point well made. But it also made me think - that's not in London is it? There seems to be a hiring frenzy at the moment. IIRC currently recruiting are (at least) Net-A-Porter, Photobox, Venda, LOVEFiLM and Dave's-bit-of-the-BBC. (or if it is London, then is there a difference between companies who say that they are recruiting and those that actually *are*?) Nicholas Clark
Re: Perl Skills Test
If you want to be a fisherman, it helps to live near the sea. If you want to be a fisherman and not live near the sea and then complain about it, fine, but don't expect many others to be sympathetic. Did I mention we* once got an ex-lighthouse keeper with no computing experience whatsoever apply for a programming job? And he did live by the sea. (presumably some kind of Job Centre apply for anything even if it's irrelevant, or you don't get benefits method)
Re: Perl Skills Test
not in london, but very nice location ;) Not that I don't think everywhere is nicer than London, but ... could you be more specific?
Re: Perl Skills Test
On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 10:12:34AM +0100, Aaron Trevena wrote: On 28 September 2011 13:54, David Cantrell da...@cantrell.org.uk wrote: On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 01:27:41PM +0100, Victoria Conlan wrote: Auntie is ALWAYS looking for perl people. ALWAYS. Really? I've been shunted into a non-programming job for the last year precisely because they aren't. We are. We had someone start just a coupla days ago, and we're still looking for MOAR PEEPUL. We're still looking for 3 more perl devs at headforwards btw - to join our 2 teams of 3 and 4 devs. not in london, but very nice location ;) Just in case there's someone who has been living under a rock the past several years, and doesn't know it yet: Booking.com is hiring as well. AFAIK, it's still we want 20 more Perl devs (a number that doesn't seem to decrease regardless of how many devs we hire). We also hire sysadmins (Unix, Windows), DBAs, web designers, iPhone devs, etc. Some people even think Amsterdam is a nice location. I wouldn't leave London for it... Anyone who's interested can contact me. Abigail
Re: Perl Skills Test
On 29/09/2011, at 8:00 PM, Abigail wrote: On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 10:12:34AM +0100, Aaron Trevena wrote: On 28 September 2011 13:54, David Cantrell da...@cantrell.org.uk wrote: On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 01:27:41PM +0100, Victoria Conlan wrote: Auntie is ALWAYS looking for perl people. ALWAYS. Really? I've been shunted into a non-programming job for the last year precisely because they aren't. We are. We had someone start just a coupla days ago, and we're still looking for MOAR PEEPUL. We're still looking for 3 more perl devs at headforwards btw - to join our 2 teams of 3 and 4 devs. not in london, but very nice location ;) Just in case there's someone who has been living under a rock the past several years, and doesn't know it yet: Booking.com is hiring as well. AFAIK, it's still we want 20 more Perl devs (a number that doesn't seem to decrease regardless of how many devs we hire). We also hire sysadmins (Unix, Windows), DBAs, web designers, iPhone devs, etc. Some people even think Amsterdam is a nice location. I wouldn't leave London for it... Yeah, it would be interesting to do a large scale study on productivity/culture for remote versus office based setups.
Re: Perl Skills Test
Kieren Diment PhD Candidate Health Informatics Research Lab, Faculty of Informatics, University of Wollongong Tel: +61 4221 3952 On 29/09/2011, at 7:12 PM, Aaron Trevena wrote: On 28 September 2011 13:54, David Cantrell da...@cantrell.org.uk wrote: On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 01:27:41PM +0100, Victoria Conlan wrote: Auntie is ALWAYS looking for perl people. ALWAYS. Really? I've been shunted into a non-programming job for the last year precisely because they aren't. We are. We had someone start just a coupla days ago, and we're still looking for MOAR PEEPUL. We're still looking for 3 more perl devs at headforwards btw - to join our 2 teams of 3 and 4 devs. not in london, but very nice location ;) The only bit of the British Isles I would want to live in IIRC (Scotland's nice in May too). But as a wild colonial boy, I'm biased.
Re: Perl Skills Test
Yeah, it would be interesting to do a large scale study on productivity/culture for remote versus office based setups. I know I was a lot more productive before my manager unceremoniously halved my working from home allowance, so now I spend much more time on trains and rushing around trying to get home in time to pick kids up before they're shipped off to Social Services.
Re: Perl Skills Test
On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 06:29:26PM +0100, 'lesleyb' wrote: On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 05:30:09PM +0100, Paul Tweedy wrote: On 28 September 2011 17:05, David Cantrell da...@cantrell.org.uk wrote: On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 04:07:50PM +0100, Paul Tweedy wrote: I know three people (all good engineers) who lost their jobs this year and are struggling to find work, so I find it hard to complain about any sort of adjustment to my salary in the current climate. I think that amongst my circle of good engineer* friends and acquaintances, someone has been out of work and having trouble finding any for *all* of the last ten years, so I am unmoved by their plight. I'll be sure to let them know. As someone who has been out of work for far too long I'm with DC on this one. You either get work in somehow or re-train. Right. I was one of them for a while. I ended up taking a job which involved a horrible commute, in not the greatest of working conditions, and which paid far less than I needed to pay my bills. Temporarily. Because it was better than moping on the dole. I jumped ship at the first opportunity, of course. -- David Cantrell | Nth greatest programmer in the world It's my experience that neither users nor customers can articulate what it is they want, nor can they evaluate it when they see it -- Alan Cooper
Re: Perl Skills Test
On 29 September 2011 10:48, Victoria Conlan vi...@comps.org wrote: not in london, but very nice location ;) Not that I don't think everywhere is nicer than London, but ... could you be more specific? Sunny Cornwall : http://www.headforwards.com/perl-jobs.html A couple of us just went for a nice run through some woods and along the stream along one of the mineral trails here. A -- Aaron J Trevena, BSc Hons http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk LAMP System Integration, Development and Consulting
Re: Perl Skills Test
On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 10:13:28AM +0100, Ian Knopke wrote: For purposes of comparison, do these other firms pay better for perl programmers than the BBC? I was under the impression they all paid about the same. The others pay a little bit better - not enough better to be an over-riding factor in many cases, but a little bit better. The BBC, on the other hand, because it is so much bigger, offers more opportunities for moving around internally, working on different stuff, and cross-training with other technologies. Auntie also engenders a warm fluffy feeling, like having your trousers full of kittens, and is *great* CV fodder because the product is so much more visible. -- David Cantrell | Bourgeois reactionary pig It wouldn't hurt to think like a serial killer every so often. Purely for purposes of prevention, of course.
Re: Perl Skills Test
On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 1:45 PM, Aaron Trevena aaron.trev...@gmail.com wrote: Sunny Cornwall : http://www.headforwards.com/perl-jobs.html A couple of us just went for a nice run through some woods and along the stream along one of the mineral trails here. Anyone in that neighbourhood could do a lot worse than pop into the Porthcurno Telegraph Museum http://www.porthcurno.org.uk/ -- Michael
Re: Perl Skills Test
On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 02:06:53PM +0100, michael lush wrote: On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 1:45 PM, Aaron Trevena aaron.trev...@gmail.com wrote: Sunny Cornwall : http://www.headforwards.com/perl-jobs.html A couple of us just went for a nice run through some woods and along the stream along one of the mineral trails here. Anyone in that neighbourhood could do a lot worse than pop into the Porthcurno Telegraph Museum http://www.porthcurno.org.uk/ Yes! I was in one of the last classes to go through the CW college before it closed, and can heartily recommend it. I understand that the museum has been significantly expanded since I was there too, and expanded for the better unlike lots of other museums that expand and lose their focus. -- David Cantrell | top google result for topless karaoke murders You don't need to spam good porn
Re: Perl Skills Test
On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 1:45 PM, Aaron Trevena aaron.trev...@gmail.com wrote: On 29 September 2011 10:48, Victoria Conlan vi...@comps.org wrote: not in london, but very nice location ;) Not that I don't think everywhere is nicer than London, but ... could you be more specific? Sunny Cornwall : http://www.headforwards.com/perl-jobs.html A couple of us just went for a nice run through some woods and along the stream along one of the mineral trails here. I really should get my finger out and stick a CV in for that.
Re: Perl Skills Test
On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 01:56:14PM +0100, David Cantrell wrote: On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 10:13:28AM +0100, Ian Knopke wrote: Auntie also engenders a warm fluffy feeling, like having your trousers full of kittens... That sounds... painful actually. -Mallory
Re: Perl Skills Test
On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 04:28:10PM +0200, Mallory van Achterberg wrote: On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 01:56:14PM +0100, David Cantrell wrote: On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 10:13:28AM +0100, Ian Knopke wrote: Auntie also engenders a warm fluffy feeling, like having your trousers full of kittens... That sounds... painful actually. We de-claw them first, and put corks in both ends. -- David Cantrell | semi-evolved ape-thing In this episode, R2 and Luke weld the doors shut on their X-Wing, and Chewbacca discovers that his Ewok girlfriend is really just a Womble with its nose chopped off.
Re: Perl Skills Test
On 29 Sep 2011, at 15:28, Mallory van Achterberg wrote: On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 01:56:14PM +0100, David Cantrell wrote: Auntie also engenders a warm fluffy feeling, like having your trousers full of kittens... That sounds... painful actually. -Mallory I wonder how it compares to ferret legging[1][2]. /j [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferret_legging [2] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPQ6TuvqX7wt=1m35s
Re: Perl Skills Test
On 28/09/11 10:42, Wendy G.A. van Dijk wrote: I've got this very interesting book in my Perl library for quite a while. It does contain interview questions about Perl. Not all questions are excellent, but quite a bunch are. In my opinion, many questions can be used to find out the skill of interviewed prospective Perl developers. So, it's not a test, but with these questions you can make several. Perl Interview Questions: Perl Programming Frequently Asked Questions Equity Press http://itcookbook.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_infocPath=1products_id=1 2006, edited by Emilee Newman Bowles ISBN 1-933804-48-3 And on Amazon, from a self selected group of one, the review says: POOR If you are looking for some good in-depth material to help with Perl interviews then this book is definitely NOT for you.
Re: Perl Skills Test
On 29 Sep 2011, at 15:07, Piers Cawley wrote: On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 1:45 PM, Aaron Trevena aaron.trev...@gmail.com wrote: On 29 September 2011 10:48, Victoria Conlan vi...@comps.org wrote: not in london, but very nice location ;) Not that I don't think everywhere is nicer than London, but ... could you be more specific? Sunny Cornwall : http://www.headforwards.com/perl-jobs.html A couple of us just went for a nice run through some woods and along the stream along one of the mineral trails here. I really should get my finger out and stick a CV in for that. you need to submit a CV to go for a run?
Re: Perl Skills Test
And all that time you waste showering and getting dressed! You think I shower and dress for work? Pfft. You can tell you work on a different floor to me!
Re: Perl Skills Test
On 29 Sep 2011, at 23:59, Victoria Conlan wrote: And all that time you waste showering and getting dressed! You think I shower and dress for work? Pfft. You can tell you work on a different floor to me! I only come to BC4 under duress and I often bike it so I think we're quits ;)
Re: Perl Skills Test
At 03:14 PM 9/22/2011, Dave Cross wrote: Interesting question from a training client: Do you know of a general Perl skills test (on-line or paper) that we could give to our Perl developers before you turn up. The idea is that the output could feed into the training you are doing for us. I've got this very interesting book in my Perl library for quite a while. It does contain interview questions about Perl. Not all questions are excellent, but quite a bunch are. In my opinion, many questions can be used to find out the skill of interviewed prospective Perl developers. So, it's not a test, but with these questions you can make several. And with the help of some good Perl programmers, it should not be too difficult to make more questions like the ones in this book (to confuse the not-so-skilled-in-Perl-who-took-the-trouble-to-read-this-book-before-being-interviewed). Perl Interview Questions: Perl Programming Frequently Asked Questions Equity Press http://itcookbook.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_infocPath=1products_id=1 2006, edited by Emilee Newman Bowles ISBN 1-933804-48-3 Another book that might be considered useful (even though it contains no Perl related matter): Conducting the Webmaster Job Interview (IT Manager Guide with Webmaster Interview Questions) Janet Burleson Rampant TechPress 2004 ISBN 0-9745993-1-X http://www.rampant-books.com/book_0401_job_web_master.htm And another book by Burleson (I don't have ithis one just found the description on the Rampant website): Conducting the Programmer Job Interview (The IT Manager Guide with Java, J2EE, C, C++, UNIX, PHP and Oracle interview questions!) Janet Burleson Rampant TechPress 2004 ISBN: 978-0974599328 http://www.rampant-books.com/book_0401_job_programmer.htm If you want more books like these, search Amazon for the books and check the section Customers Who Bought This Item Also Bought. Sometimes something reasonably interesting pops up. I came on this page: http://www.amazon.com/Conducting-Programmer-Job-Interview-interview/dp/0974599328/ref=sr_1_1?s=booksie=UTF8qid=1317203912sr=1-1 and I found this in the alsoo bought section: Programming Interviews Exposed: Secrets to Landing Your Next Job, 2nd Edition (Programmer to Programmer) John Mongan (Author), Noah Suojanen (Author), Eric Giguère (Author) Wrox http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Interviews-Exposed-Secrets-Programmer/dp/047012167X/ref=pd_sim_b1 Have fun. Greetz, Wendy van Dijk I don't[1]. Does anyone else have any ideas? I suppose I could write something. But I don't really have time. I don't want to get into the whole certification issue. That's not what this is about at all. Dave... [1] Well, other than Brainbench but that costs money and the quality of the questions is somewhat dubious.
Re: Perl Skills Test
Auntie is ALWAYS looking for perl people. ALWAYS. Really? I've been shunted into a non-programming job for the last year precisely because they aren't.
Re: Perl Skills Test
Next you'll be asking if the permies got a pay rise this year or if their pension fund[1] didn't get raided. I got a pay rise, at the cost of signing up to their stupid pension fund raiding scheme. As with most things around here, I tutted to anyone willing to listen, and did nothing more about it. Apathy would rule if it could be bothered. *stands at a safe distance* I know* where you live. (* this is a lie)
Re: Perl Skills Test
On 27 September 2011 21:40, Paul Tweedy p...@70cities.net wrote: On 27 September 2011 17:18, Peter Edwards pe...@dragonstaff.co.uk wrote: Next you'll be asking if the permies got a pay rise this year or if their pension fund[1] didn't get raided. Actually, we permies did get a pay rise this year - 2% for those earning under 60k, which I'd think is nearly all of us. The first in three years IIRC. *looks at RPI figures* *looks at CPI figures* *looks at 2% BBC pay increase* Nope, we got a pay cut again this year. Just slightly less of a cut than if the increase had stayed at 0. Iain
Re: Perl Skills Test
On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 01:27:41PM +0100, Victoria Conlan wrote: Auntie is ALWAYS looking for perl people. ALWAYS. Really? I've been shunted into a non-programming job for the last year precisely because they aren't. We are. We had someone start just a coupla days ago, and we're still looking for MOAR PEEPUL. -- David Cantrell | Minister for Arbitrary Justice You may now start misinterpreting what I just wrote, and attacking that misinterpretation.
Re: Perl Skills Test
On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 01:54:35PM +0100, David Cantrell wrote: On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 01:27:41PM +0100, Victoria Conlan wrote: Auntie is ALWAYS looking for perl people. ALWAYS. Really? I've been shunted into a non-programming job for the last year precisely because they aren't. We are. We had someone start just a coupla days ago, and we're still looking for MOAR PEEPUL. Should the jobs list be told about this? Strikes me that even a 4 line message with little more meat than the department, location and a suitable contact address would be be sufficient. What's really not clear is the suitable contact address Find a sacrificial manager who needs to hire and volunteer its e-mail address for the greater good of Auntie? Nicholas Clark
Re: Perl Skills Test
We are. We had someone start just a coupla days ago, and we're still looking for MOAR PEEPUL. Hmm, maybe you lot just scare me too much. :-P I think I've forgotten how to write code now, anyhow. :-(
Come and work at the BBC! (was: Re: Perl Skills Test)
On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 02:13:12PM +0100, Nicholas Clark wrote: On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 01:54:35PM +0100, David Cantrell wrote: We had someone start just a coupla days ago, and we're still looking for MOAR PEEPUL. Should the jobs list be told about this? I think that whenever a position has opened here, I've mentioned it either on the jobs list or this 'ere list, and on IRC. As for who to contact - me. I can pass your CV etc on to the right people. -- David Cantrell | A machine for turning tea into grumpiness
Re: Perl Skills Test
On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 02:13:43PM +0100, Victoria Conlan wrote: We are. We had someone start just a coupla days ago, and we're still looking for MOAR PEEPUL. Hmm, maybe you lot just scare me too much. :-P I think I've forgotten how to write code now, anyhow. :-( Nah, coding is like falling off a bike - easy to do, hard to forget, and not very stylish :-) -- David Cantrell | Godless Liberal Elitist On the bright side, if sendmail is tied up routing spam and pointless uknot posts, it's not waving its arse around saying root me! -- Peter Corlett, in uknot
Re: Perl Skills Test
On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 02:25:10PM +0100, David Cantrell wrote: On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 02:13:43PM +0100, Victoria Conlan wrote: We are. We had someone start just a coupla days ago, and we're still looking for MOAR PEEPUL. Hmm, maybe you lot just scare me too much. :-P He's really not dangerous at all. Cute and cuddly, and easily disarmed by placing a pint glass of (decent) beer in each hand. I think I've forgotten how to write code now, anyhow. :-( Nah, coding is like falling off a bike - easy to do, hard to forget, and not very stylish :-) Surely not knowing how to code is a feature, as it makes it easier to unquestioningly accept the current fashion, without having to first unlearn last year's current fashion? Not that I know what this year's fad is. I merely know that I don't know it, and so usually fail to meet several of the ticky boxes of required experience on most job ads. Which pretty much goes to show how required required is, as people at said organisations when pointed at such ads usually then say that I'm still the sort of person that they'd want. Nicholas Clark PS If anyone's employer *is* recruiting, $10,000 is less than you'd pay a pimp. TPF would love to thank you for your donation on their front page: http://www.perlfoundation.org/ PPS london.pm's beer kitty will undercut TPF's price, but doesn't offer as much visibility.
Re: Perl Skills Test
On 28 September 2011 13:39, Iain Tatch iain.tatch+londo...@gmail.com wrote: On 27 September 2011 21:40, Paul Tweedy p...@70cities.net wrote: On 27 September 2011 17:18, Peter Edwards pe...@dragonstaff.co.uk wrote: Next you'll be asking if the permies got a pay rise this year or if their pension fund[1] didn't get raided. Actually, we permies did get a pay rise this year - 2% for those earning under 60k, which I'd think is nearly all of us. The first in three years IIRC. *looks at RPI figures* *looks at CPI figures* *looks at 2% BBC pay increase* Nope, we got a pay cut again this year. Just slightly less of a cut than if the increase had stayed at 0. I know three people (all good engineers) who lost their jobs this year and are struggling to find work, so I find it hard to complain about any sort of adjustment to my salary in the current climate. PT -- paul tweedy p...@70cities.net http://70cities.net
Re: Perl Skills Test
On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 04:07:50PM +0100, Paul Tweedy wrote: I know three people (all good engineers) who lost their jobs this year and are struggling to find work, so I find it hard to complain about any sort of adjustment to my salary in the current climate. I'm not sure how to respond to that, other than it made me stop and think, and Yes, good point well made. But it also made me think - that's not in London is it? There seems to be a hiring frenzy at the moment. IIRC currently recruiting are (at least) Net-A-Porter, Photobox, Venda, LOVEFiLM and Dave's-bit-of-the-BBC. (or if it is London, then is there a difference between companies who say that they are recruiting and those that actually *are*?) Nicholas Clark
Re: Perl Skills Test
On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 04:07:50PM +0100, Paul Tweedy wrote: I know three people (all good engineers) who lost their jobs this year and are struggling to find work, so I find it hard to complain about any sort of adjustment to my salary in the current climate. I think that amongst my circle of good engineer* friends and acquaintances, someone has been out of work and having trouble finding any for *all* of the last ten years, so I am unmoved by their plight. And not able to find any work usually means not able to find any work that I like and that pays lots of money, so I am moved even less. * I assume that for the purposes of this discussion, programmers, sysadmins and net-wookies are engineers -- David Cantrell | Reality Engineer, Ministry of Information engineer: n. one who, regardless of how much effort he puts in to a job, will never satisfy either the suits or the scientists
Re: Perl Skills Test
On 28 September 2011 17:05, David Cantrell da...@cantrell.org.uk wrote: On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 04:07:50PM +0100, Paul Tweedy wrote: I know three people (all good engineers) who lost their jobs this year and are struggling to find work, so I find it hard to complain about any sort of adjustment to my salary in the current climate. I think that amongst my circle of good engineer* friends and acquaintances, someone has been out of work and having trouble finding any for *all* of the last ten years, so I am unmoved by their plight. I'll be sure to let them know. And not able to find any work usually means not able to find any work that I like and that pays lots of money, so I am moved even less. != true I'm afraid. They just have the temerity to not live in (and are unable to move to) the south east or near a major city. -- paul tweedy p...@70cities.net http://70cities.net
Re: Perl Skills Test
On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 05:30:09PM +0100, Paul Tweedy wrote: On 28 September 2011 17:05, David Cantrell da...@cantrell.org.uk wrote: On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 04:07:50PM +0100, Paul Tweedy wrote: I know three people (all good engineers) who lost their jobs this year and are struggling to find work, so I find it hard to complain about any sort of adjustment to my salary in the current climate. I think that amongst my circle of good engineer* friends and acquaintances, someone has been out of work and having trouble finding any for *all* of the last ten years, so I am unmoved by their plight. I'll be sure to let them know. As someone who has been out of work for far too long I'm with DC on this one. You either get work in somehow or re-train. And not able to find any work usually means not able to find any work that I like and that pays lots of money, so I am moved even less. != true I'm afraid. They just have the temerity to not live in (and are unable to move to) the south east or near a major city. I've moved around for the sole purposes of staying in work: working out in the sticks, 'oop North' in a city as well as 'daarn Sarf' in three cities incl. London. The job-for-life died a long time ago. When the job dies and you're out in the sticks it is either time to move or, if there is a good reason to stay where you are - decrepit parents, A-level or GCSE kids - then you have to look for either remote or different work or create your own. Yes I am out there, it is tough, highly competitive and it isn't getting any easier. Kind Regards Lesley
Re: Perl Skills Test
At an interview with Auntie a few years ago, they gave me a Perl script and asked me to highlight all the problems/errors in it. Not sure if they were flattering me, but I found quite a few they didn't seem to be aware of.. I've been on the other side of that interview. I was astonished by how bad the script was. There are a couple of Perl tests at the beeb, but Dave will have been subjected to the Numpty-filtering-test that was on our team. Last set of interviews I took, the person who wanted more money than we could offer was the one who scored lowest. Strangely, he didn't even seem to have good Blagging skills.
Re: Perl Skills Test
On 26 September 2011 14:37, Aaron Trevena aaron.trev...@gmail.com wrote: I had a go at code dojo at the recent Agile on the Beach conference and thought to myself - this would be a handy technical test tool : http://jonjagger.blogspot.com/p/cyberdojo.html (and yes, it does come in perl flavour) Ah, that's a cool idea and would lend itself to testing a potential employee in a different country. I went to a [real world] Scala dojo recently and that was also great fun http://www.meetup.com/london-scala/ It even made me use GNU emacs for the evening! (runs away from holy war) Regards, Peter
Re: Perl Skills Test
On 27 September 2011 15:30, Peter Edwards pe...@dragonstaff.co.uk wrote: On 26 September 2011 14:37, Aaron Trevena aaron.trev...@gmail.com wrote: I had a go at code dojo at the recent Agile on the Beach conference and thought to myself - this would be a handy technical test tool : http://jonjagger.blogspot.com/p/cyberdojo.html (and yes, it does come in perl flavour) It doesn't appear to explain coding dojo but jumps straight into assuming you know what it means. Only Dojo I ever came across is a rather painful JS framework. Context? /joel
Re: Perl Skills Test
On 27 Sep 2011, at 14:14, Victoria Conlan wrote: At an interview with Auntie a few years ago, they gave me a Perl script and asked me to highlight all the problems/errors in it. Not sure if they were flattering me, but I found quite a few they didn't seem to be aware of.. I've been on the other side of that interview. I was astonished by how bad the script was. There are a couple of Perl tests at the beeb, but Dave will have been subjected to the Numpty-filtering-test that was on our team. Last set of interviews I took, the person who wanted more money than we could offer was the one who scored lowest. Strangely, he didn't even seem to have good Blagging skills. That's a coincidence - I wanted far more money that they could offer me, I had rubbish blagging skills, and I'm guessing I didn't get the highest score either! But it was 3 or 4 years ago, so maybe you're talking about someone else ;-) Chris PS I've since improved my blagging skills, would be happy with less money, and might spot a few more problems with the script than I did 4 years ago. Just in case Auntie is still hiring.
Re: Perl Skills Test
On Sep 27, 2011, at 3:36 PM, Joel Bernstein wrote: On 27 September 2011 15:30, Peter Edwards pe...@dragonstaff.co.uk wrote: On 26 September 2011 14:37, Aaron Trevena aaron.trev...@gmail.com wrote: I had a go at code dojo at the recent Agile on the Beach conference and thought to myself - this would be a handy technical test tool : http://jonjagger.blogspot.com/p/cyberdojo.html (and yes, it does come in perl flavour) It doesn't appear to explain coding dojo but jumps straight into assuming you know what it means. Only Dojo I ever came across is a rather painful JS framework. Context? A dojo (道場 dōjō?) is a Japanese term which literally means place of the way. Initially, dōjōs were adjunct to temples. The term can refer to a formal training place for any of the Japanese do arts but typically it is considered the formal gathering place for students of any Japanese martial arts style to conduct training, examinations and other related encounters. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dojo Liz
Re: Perl Skills Test
On 27 September 2011 14:36, Joel Bernstein j...@fysh.org wrote: It doesn't appear to explain coding dojo but jumps straight into assuming you know what it means. Only Dojo I ever came across is a rather painful JS framework. Context? The original term for dojo was where you practiced a martial art, I assume this is the context it was meant in. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dojo I assumed a coding dojo was where you go to practice your coding skills. Aside from that, it looks pretty neat, I may try it out when I get some free time. Gareth
Re: Perl Skills Test
On 27 September 2011 14:36, Joel Bernstein j...@fysh.org wrote: It doesn't appear to explain coding dojo but jumps straight into assuming you know what it means. Only Dojo I ever came across is a rather painful JS framework. Context? http://codingdojo.org/ an instance thereof http://www.meetup.com/london-scala/events/32717142/
Re: Perl Skills Test
On 27 Sep 2011, at 14:51, Jones, Christopher wrote: PS I've since improved my blagging skills, would be happy with less money, and might spot a few more problems with the script than I did 4 years ago. Just in case Auntie is still hiring. They are, I got double spammed by jobstheword about a BBC job this morning. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk
Re: Perl Skills Test
On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 03:08:13PM +0100, David Dorward wrote: On 27 Sep 2011, at 14:51, Jones, Christopher wrote: PS I've since improved my blagging skills, would be happy with less money, and might spot a few more problems with the script than I did 4 years ago. Just in case Auntie is still hiring. They are, I got double spammed by jobstheword about a BBC job this morning. Would be nice if $pimp knew to mail the jobs list. Nicholas Clark
Re: Perl Skills Test
On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 03:08:13PM +0100, David Dorward wrote: On 27 Sep 2011, at 14:51, Jones, Christopher wrote: PS I've since improved my blagging skills, would be happy with less money, and might spot a few more problems with the script than I did 4 years ago. Just in case Auntie is still hiring. They are, I got double spammed by jobstheword about a BBC job this morning. Auntie is ALWAYS looking for perl people. ALWAYS. Send CVs to whoever the hell you know here, and they'll get passed around to whichever group is hiring that week. -- David Cantrell | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david Are you feeling bored? depressed? slowed down? Evil Scientists may be manipulating the speed of light in your vicinity. Buy our patented instructional video to find out how, and maybe YOU can stop THEM
Re: Perl Skills Test
On 27 September 2011 17:44, David Cantrell da...@cantrell.org.uk wrote: On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 03:08:13PM +0100, David Dorward wrote: On 27 Sep 2011, at 14:51, Jones, Christopher wrote: PS I've since improved my blagging skills, would be happy with less money, and might spot a few more problems with the script than I did 4 years ago. Just in case Auntie is still hiring. They are, I got double spammed by jobstheword about a BBC job this morning. Auntie is ALWAYS looking for perl people. ALWAYS. Thing is, they only seem to pay market rates for contractors. I only ever see Grade 7D permanent Perl jobs advertised, though. According to a recent FOI request, Grade 7 on Day rate conditions translates to a maximum of about £45k. Which doesn't seem to be in line with what the larger London Perl employers offer for experienced staff. When I've asked BBC recruiters about this, they say stuff like well no, grade 8 programmers would be 'Lead Developer' positions and those are much rarer and tend to be internally promoted which doesn't bode well. Send CVs to whoever the hell you know here, and they'll get passed around to whichever group is hiring that week. Is it actually worth doing this for anybody who has any expectation of not taking a pay cut? There's a recent FOI request (with pay grade - salary band chart) here: http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/foi/classes/disclosure_logs/rfi20110278_pay_scales_lowest_paid_staff.pdf Maybe I've got this wrong, but I don't much like the idea of applying for a permanent job with little scope to negotiate the rate regardless of skills and experience, where (conventionally, without FOI requests) I don't know (until I get the inevitable low-ball offer) if it's even worth my time applying... I want to be wrong about this, please explain it to me? /joel
Re: Perl Skills Test
On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 06:00:26PM +0200, Joel Bernstein wrote: On 27 September 2011 17:44, David Cantrell da...@cantrell.org.uk wrote: Auntie is ALWAYS looking for perl people. ALWAYS. Thing is, they only seem to pay market rates for contractors. I only ever see Grade 7D permanent Perl jobs advertised Ignore that nonsense. I did. Send CVs to whoever the hell you know here, and they'll get passed around to whichever group is hiring that week. Is it actually worth doing this for anybody who has any expectation of not taking a pay cut? Yes. Maybe I've got this wrong, but I don't much like the idea of applying for a permanent job with little scope to negotiate the rate regardless of skills and experience, where (conventionally, without FOI requests) I don't know (until I get the inevitable low-ball offer) if it's even worth my time applying... You say to whoever it is that's hiring I have no idea what 7D means, but I'm looking for Eleventy Million Pounds, is it worth our while to continue? And you don't apply for a job. You send your CV to someone you know, they pass it around to whoever's hiring, who then contacts you to invite you to an interview. Well, that's what happened with me, anyway. Both times I got a job at Auntie. -- David Cantrell | A machine for turning tea into grumpiness There's a hole in my bucket, dear Liza, dear Liza. WHAT MAKES YOU SAY THERE IS A HOLE IN YOUR BUCKET?
Re: Perl Skills Test
On 27 September 2011 17:00, Joel Bernstein j...@fysh.org wrote: Maybe I've got this wrong, but I don't much like the idea of applying for a permanent job with little scope to negotiate the rate regardless of skills and experience, where (conventionally, without FOI requests) I don't know (until I get the inevitable low-ball offer) if it's even worth my time applying... I want to be wrong about this, please explain it to me? /joel Next you'll be asking if the permies got a pay rise this year or if their pension fund[1] didn't get raided. *stands at a safe distance* [1] http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/189027/BBC's-secret-pension-pot/ FAT CAT BBC director general Mark Thompson and his executive directors are pocketing cash from a “secret pension pot” while asking staff to accept cuts in their own retirement packages. A multi-million-pound “pension slush fund” allows Thompson and eight executive board members the cash but the rest of the workers are excluded. The revelation will infuriate the BBC http://www.express.co.uk/search/BBC/’s 19,000 staff asked by Thompson this week to accept a one per cent cap on their much smaller pensions http://www.express.co.uk/search/pensions/.
Re: Perl Skills Test
On Tue, 2011-09-27 at 16:20 +0100, Nicholas Clark wrote: On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 03:08:13PM +0100, David Dorward wrote: On 27 Sep 2011, at 14:51, Jones, Christopher wrote: PS I've since improved my blagging skills, would be happy with less money, and might spot a few more problems with the script than I did 4 years ago. Just in case Auntie is still hiring. They are, I got double spammed by jobstheword about a BBC job this morning. Would be nice if $pimp knew to mail the jobs list. They claim that they're a no-recruitment-agents website, although I assume this just makes them a slightly different shade of recruitment agent. I'll let them know about the list, anyway. Regards, Denny signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Perl Skills Test
Test On Sep 22, 2011 2:20 PM, Dave Cross d...@dave.org.uk wrote: Interesting question from a training client: Do you know of a general Perl skills test (on-line or paper) that we could give to our Perl developers before you turn up. The idea is that the output could feed into the training you are doing for us. I don't[1]. Does anyone else have any ideas? I suppose I could write something. But I don't really have time. I don't want to get into the whole certification issue. That's not what this is about at all. Dave... [1] Well, other than Brainbench but that costs money and the quality of the questions is somewhat dubious.
Re: Perl Skills Test
On 22 September 2011 22:13, Piers Cawley pdcaw...@bofh.org.uk wrote: On 22 September 2011 14:14, Dave Cross d...@dave.org.uk wrote: At an interview with Auntie a few years ago, they gave me a Perl script and asked me to highlight all the problems/errors in it. Not sure if they were flattering me, but I found quite a few they didn't seem to be aware of.. I've been on the other side of that interview. I was astonished by how bad the script was. I remember that, the Future Media Perl test. And a related database design test based on some shockingly poor Access DB schema. The idea was they would give you 30 minutes to scribbling down increasingly irate comments on your bit of paper on each. I think, though I could be wrong, that when they asked you to comment on the code and design they had a concealed sound level meter under the table and would give you a score based on how loud you ranted... :- More recently I did a good test which was basically a pair programming exercise where you are given a spec, some partial code, and a unit test you could run but not inspect. Then using your editor of choice go and make the code pass the test and discuss with the technical director your thought processes and why and what you are doing. That seems to me a very reliable way of working out whether someone can deliver the goods. And also whether they can work in a team. Regards, Peter
Re: Perl Skills Test
Could you share the name of the company which gave you this pair programming test? It should be a good place to work. -- Best regards, Egor Shipovalov. On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 9:18 AM, Peter Edwards pe...@dragonstaff.co.uk wrote: On 22 September 2011 22:13, Piers Cawley pdcaw...@bofh.org.uk wrote: On 22 September 2011 14:14, Dave Cross d...@dave.org.uk wrote: At an interview with Auntie a few years ago, they gave me a Perl script and asked me to highlight all the problems/errors in it. Not sure if they were flattering me, but I found quite a few they didn't seem to be aware of.. I've been on the other side of that interview. I was astonished by how bad the script was. I remember that, the Future Media Perl test. And a related database design test based on some shockingly poor Access DB schema. The idea was they would give you 30 minutes to scribbling down increasingly irate comments on your bit of paper on each. I think, though I could be wrong, that when they asked you to comment on the code and design they had a concealed sound level meter under the table and would give you a score based on how loud you ranted... :- More recently I did a good test which was basically a pair programming exercise where you are given a spec, some partial code, and a unit test you could run but not inspect. Then using your editor of choice go and make the code pass the test and discuss with the technical director your thought processes and why and what you are doing. That seems to me a very reliable way of working out whether someone can deliver the goods. And also whether they can work in a team. Regards, Peter
Re: Perl Skills Test
On 26 September 2011 09:44, Egor Shipovalov kogdaugo...@gmail.com wrote: Could you share the name of the company which gave you this pair programming test? It should be a good place to work. Hi Egor, it was a financial services company in the City of London providing backend stock swap tracking and completion, who I reached via http://osrecruit.com/ Regards, Peter
Re: Perl Skills Test
On 26 September 2011 09:18, Peter Edwards pe...@dragonstaff.co.uk wrote: More recently I did a good test which was basically a pair programming exercise where you are given a spec, some partial code, and a unit test you could run but not inspect. Then using your editor of choice go and make the code pass the test and discuss with the technical director your thought processes and why and what you are doing. That seems to me a very reliable way of working out whether someone can deliver the goods. And also whether they can work in a team. I had a go at code dojo at the recent Agile on the Beach conference and thought to myself - this would be a handy technical test tool : http://jonjagger.blogspot.com/p/cyberdojo.html (and yes, it does come in perl flavour) A -- Aaron J Trevena, BSc Hons http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk LAMP System Integration, Development and Consulting
Perl Skills Test
Interesting question from a training client: Do you know of a general Perl skills test (on-line or paper) that we could give to our Perl developers before you turn up. The idea is that the output could feed into the training you are doing for us. I don't[1]. Does anyone else have any ideas? I suppose I could write something. But I don't really have time. I don't want to get into the whole certification issue. That's not what this is about at all. Dave... [1] Well, other than Brainbench but that costs money and the quality of the questions is somewhat dubious.
Re: Perl Skills Test
What about the good old Perl Purity Test? I reckon some bits are out of date, but some others might still be useful. J. On 22 September 2011 14:14, Dave Cross d...@dave.org.uk wrote: Interesting question from a training client: Do you know of a general Perl skills test (on-line or paper) that we could give to our Perl developers before you turn up. The idea is that the output could feed into the training you are doing for us. I don't[1]. Does anyone else have any ideas? I suppose I could write something. But I don't really have time. I don't want to get into the whole certification issue. That's not what this is about at all. Dave... [1] Well, other than Brainbench but that costs money and the quality of the questions is somewhat dubious. -- Jerome Eteve. http://sigstp.blogspot.com/ http://twitter.com/jeteve
Re: Perl Skills Test
On 22 Sep 2011, at 14:14, Dave Cross wrote: [1] Well, other than Brainbench but that costs money and the quality of the questions is somewhat dubious. I was about to suggest that. If we have a brainbench subscriber here, could we cull some quesitons and sanitise them? :)
Re: Perl Skills Test
On 22 September 2011 14:14, Dave Cross d...@dave.org.uk wrote: Interesting question from a training client: Do you know of a general Perl skills test (on-line or paper) that we could give to our Perl developers before you turn up. my employer -2 had a test they would use as a vetting tool. It was only about a half a page, but perl being what it is there was more than one way to answer all the questions: one elegant, and probably several that were hard work, the idea being to find more of the elegant options. Either way, if your response was deemed to be not too useless, you're answers would be discussed at interview. -- Nonnullus unus commodo reddo is mihi. ABC*D1EFGHIJK2.LMNO3*4PQRST*ITUBE-STANDARD-ANTI-BULLSHEIT-EMAIL*U.56X
Re: Perl Skills Test
On 22 September 2011 14:14, Dave Cross d...@dave.org.uk wrote: Interesting question from a training client: Do you know of a general Perl skills test (on-line or paper) that we could give to our Perl developers before you turn up. At an interview with Auntie a few years ago, they gave me a Perl script and asked me to highlight all the problems/errors in it. Not sure if they were flattering me, but I found quite a few they didn't seem to be aware of.. Chris
Re: Perl Skills Test
On Thursday, September 22, 2011, Jones, Christopher c.jo...@ucl.ac.uk wrote: On 22 September 2011 14:14, Dave Cross d...@dave.org.uk wrote: Interesting question from a training client: Do you know of a general Perl skills test (on-line or paper) that we could give to our Perl developers before you turn up. At an interview with Auntie a few years ago, they gave me a Perl script and asked me to highlight all the problems/errors in it. Not sure if they were flattering me, but I found quite a few they didn't seem to be aware of.. I've been on the other side of that interview. I was astonished by how bad the script was.
