Re: Recommended IDE...?
I've never found any emacs related package that provides more than incremental improvements over dabbrev-expand (M-x /). Although I did use dconway's recommendations in my .emacs some years ago. I always curse that when working on TT templates (along with davorg's tt-mode) , but not enough to want to fix it. On 20/01/2014, at 10:49 PM, DAVID HODGKINSON wrote: > I did some research on this for emacs a while back. > > http://www.davehodgkinson.com/blog/2012/01/using-emacs-as-an-ide/ > > Having Perl::Critic integrated is nice, and I've done this in some > places that care. > > Perlysense got some votes. > > ctags/etags is good if you need to zap between files looking for symbols. > > I bind M-x compile to a key to run the perl script. > > But as I say in the blog, despite using emacs for 30 years I'm still > a philistine. My elisp-fu is long dead. > > > On 17 Jan 2014, at 10:18, Andrew wrote: > >> Looking to try using an Integrated Development Environment. >> Is there an industry standard everyone uses and I should get familiar with, >> or will any do? >> >> My previous experience is with NotePad and TextWrangler. >> I've Windows98SE and OSX 10.5.8 [Leopard] ;-), and use both in tandem via a >> KVM switch, XD. >> >> Thanks in advance, =). >> >> Yours, >> Andrew. >> >
Re: Recommended IDE...?
I did some research on this for emacs a while back. http://www.davehodgkinson.com/blog/2012/01/using-emacs-as-an-ide/ Having Perl::Critic integrated is nice, and I've done this in some places that care. Perlysense got some votes. ctags/etags is good if you need to zap between files looking for symbols. I bind M-x compile to a key to run the perl script. But as I say in the blog, despite using emacs for 30 years I'm still a philistine. My elisp-fu is long dead. On 17 Jan 2014, at 10:18, Andrew wrote: > Looking to try using an Integrated Development Environment. > Is there an industry standard everyone uses and I should get familiar with, > or will any do? > > My previous experience is with NotePad and TextWrangler. > I've Windows98SE and OSX 10.5.8 [Leopard] ;-), and use both in tandem via a > KVM switch, XD. > > Thanks in advance, =). > > Yours, > Andrew. >
Re: Recommended IDE...?
OK, OK, I give. I spent some time and cleaned up it up slightly (it's still
pretty bad):
https://github.com/Ovid/ovid-vim
Cheers,
Ovid
--
IT consulting, training, international recruiting
http://www.allaroundtheworld.fr/.
Buy my book! - http://bit.ly/beginning_perl
Live and work overseas - http://www.overseas-exile.com/
On Monday, 20 January 2014, 11:11, Ben Tisdall wrote:
On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 10:01 AM, Ovid wrote:
>
>>
>> Plus, it's hard to share my setup because it's "accreted" over the years
>> ("grown" is too kind of a word). I need to clean it up and put it out there.
>>
>
>+1 for that!
>
>
>
>
Re: Recommended IDE...?
On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 10:01 AM, Ovid wrote:
>
> Plus, it's hard to share my setup because it's "accreted" over the years
> ("grown" is too kind of a word). I need to clean it up and put it out there.
>
+1 for that!
Re: Recommended IDE...?
This is the downside of vim compared to Eclipse: I'm an old-school vim user
from long before plugins were so popular and easy to install. Thus, I have
scripted vim to do exactly what *I* do on a regular basis. ',tb', all tests in
all of my buffers are run. ',gg' (GoGo): goes to the module's tests or, if in a
test, goes to the module it's testing. ',r': rebuild my project. And so on.
What this means, unfortunately, is the same problem many people have when using
these tools: it's hard to sit down at someone else's editor and get stuff done.
Plus, it's hard to share my setup because it's "accreted" over the years
("grown" is too kind of a word). I need to clean it up and put it out there.
Cheers,
Ovid
--
IT consulting, training, international recruiting
http://www.allaroundtheworld.fr/.
Buy my book! - http://bit.ly/beginning_perl
Live and work overseas - http://www.overseas-exile.com/
On Monday, 20 January 2014, 9:48, Peter Sergeant wrote:
On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 7:38 AM, Ovid wrote:
>
>I would almost claim that I get most of the common benefits of an IDE out of
>my vim setup (completion, debugging, testing, refactoring tools, rebuilding
>the project, and so on)
>
>
>Google suggests these as good starting points:
> * https://github.com/vim-perl/vim-perl
> * http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=556
> *
>http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1573782/what-are-your-suggestions-for-an-ideal-vim-configuration-for-perl-development
>
>
>Anything else you'd recommend?
>
>
>-P
>
>
Re: Recommended IDE...?
On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 7:38 AM, Ovid wrote: > I would almost claim that I get most of the common benefits of an IDE out > of my vim setup (completion, debugging, testing, refactoring tools, > rebuilding the project, and so on) > Google suggests these as good starting points: * https://github.com/vim-perl/vim-perl * http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=556 * http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1573782/what-are-your-suggestions-for-an-ideal-vim-configuration-for-perl-development Anything else you'd recommend? -P
Re: Recommended IDE...?
On 20/01/2014, at 6:38 PM, Ovid wrote: > * Run something from the command line Having access to a decent command line also eliminates many use cases for IDEs. So on the rare occasions I do windows work, I tend to avoid using windows until the last possible minute, and I make sure I use CPAN libs that are robust to platform differences (especially Path::Class and whatever end of line library seems appropriate for the use-case). Once your development cycle involves working out how to make the problem testable, writing some code, testing it, lather. rinse repeat, flashy (rather than utilitarian) IDE features become unimportant, in my opinion.
Re: Recommended IDE...?
> These "oh but emacs/vi/nano is great!" responses are really irrelevant. I would almost claim that I get most of the common benefits of an IDE out of my vim setup (completion, debugging, testing, refactoring tools, rebuilding the project, and so on), but in watching other people use these tools, even if they've had years of experience, I still see them: * Open a file * Edit the file * Close the file * Run something from the command line And a little part of me dies each time. May as well be using Notepad. If that's your workflow and your happy with it, that's OK, but you can't compare it to an IDE (except Eclipse: I've watched more than one developer struggle like mad using Eclipse because it has all the speed of a snail on downers.) Cheers, Ovid -- IT consulting, training, international recruiting http://www.allaroundtheworld.fr/. Buy my book! - http://bit.ly/beginning_perl Live and work overseas - http://www.overseas-exile.com/ On Monday, 20 January 2014, 0:16, Paul Makepeace wrote: On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 8:39 AM, Peter Corlett wrote: >> On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 10:18:14AM -, Andrew wrote: >>> Looking to try using an Integrated Development Environment. >> >> Why? What problem are you having that you expect an IDE to solve? > >He wants to *try* it. > >> The features I find most compelling in IDEs is background parsing to >> immediately spot syntax errors and be able to auto-complete or otherwise spot >> typoes or confusion about what type a method returns. However, this only >> really >> works with statically-typed compiled languages such as Java. Perl is very >> much >> the antithesis of Java and you don't really get these benefits. > >Yes you do. It's 2014; parsing dynamic languages in IDEs is largely >solved. Any difficulty in finding such a thing for Perl is more a >reflection of Perl's status as a language in 2014 than any intrinsic >technical difficulty. > > >> They also provide various hot keys and shortcuts to perform test compiles, >> VCS >> integration and whatnot, but that's really only of marginal benefit. > >Says you. Maybe the OP would like to *try* it and not have someone >second guess their own motivations & preferences? Maybe they've read >something like http://www.jetbrains.com/ruby/features/ and thought >wouldn't they like that for perl? > >These "oh but emacs/vi/nano is great!" responses are really irrelevant. > >Paul > > > >
Re: Recommended IDE...?
On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 8:39 AM, Peter Corlett wrote: > On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 10:18:14AM -, Andrew wrote: >> Looking to try using an Integrated Development Environment. > > Why? What problem are you having that you expect an IDE to solve? He wants to *try* it. > The features I find most compelling in IDEs is background parsing to > immediately spot syntax errors and be able to auto-complete or otherwise spot > typoes or confusion about what type a method returns. However, this only > really > works with statically-typed compiled languages such as Java. Perl is very much > the antithesis of Java and you don't really get these benefits. Yes you do. It's 2014; parsing dynamic languages in IDEs is largely solved. Any difficulty in finding such a thing for Perl is more a reflection of Perl's status as a language in 2014 than any intrinsic technical difficulty. > They also provide various hot keys and shortcuts to perform test compiles, VCS > integration and whatnot, but that's really only of marginal benefit. Says you. Maybe the OP would like to *try* it and not have someone second guess their own motivations & preferences? Maybe they've read something like http://www.jetbrains.com/ruby/features/ and thought wouldn't they like that for perl? These "oh but emacs/vi/nano is great!" responses are really irrelevant. Paul
Re: Recommended IDE...?
On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 4:39 PM, Peter Corlett wrote: > On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 10:18:14AM -, Andrew wrote: > > Looking to try using an Integrated Development Environment. > Why? What problem are you having that you expect an IDE to solve? > I became quite partial to "Refactor" menus, integrated test execution, and integrated debugger, back when I was doing a little Java. -P
Re: Recommended IDE...?
On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 10:18:14AM -, Andrew wrote: > Looking to try using an Integrated Development Environment. Why? What problem are you having that you expect an IDE to solve? The features I find most compelling in IDEs is background parsing to immediately spot syntax errors and be able to auto-complete or otherwise spot typoes or confusion about what type a method returns. However, this only really works with statically-typed compiled languages such as Java. Perl is very much the antithesis of Java and you don't really get these benefits. They also provide various hot keys and shortcuts to perform test compiles, VCS integration and whatnot, but that's really only of marginal benefit. > Is there an industry standard everyone uses and I should get familiar with, > or will any do? Pretty much every Perl developer I know uses Emacs and/or (n)vi and a shell prompt, on some kind of Unix (typically Linux or MacOS). Windows is broken and has an unusable shell, so it comes as no surprise that IDEs are more popular on that platform. > My previous experience is with NotePad and TextWrangler. > I've Windows98SE and OSX 10.5.8 [Leopard] ;-), and use both in tandem via a > KVM switch, XD. If your hardware is contemporaneous with your operating system, it's not going to be powerful enough to run a modern IDE. Might I suggest you try GW-BASIC? :)
Re: Recommended IDE...?
On 18 January 2014 16:14, Peter Corlett wrote: > On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 08:38:43AM -0800, Paul Makepeace wrote: >> On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 4:27 AM, Dave Cross wrote: >>> Every few years I try installing Eclipse and EPIC and then look on appalled >>> as my machine grinds to a halt. >> Trade in your gold cat for a computer with an SSD drive. It's night & day >> with Eclipse. > > This here machine *has* an SSD, but because it has a mere two cores and 8GB of > RAM, Eclipse is still hateful. > The last time I tried it (probably 3 years ago so maybe their defaults are now changed?) -- at that time anyway when I gave it more memory on startup it seemed to perform a little better. -Xms512m -Xmx1024m in eclipse.ini (or double or bump even higher). But I abandoned it when I discovered it couldn't substitute 2000 lines in any reasonable time on a recent Dual Core Thinkpad (unlike vim or emacs). It's unlikely to be useable or even runnable on the Original Poster's Windows 98 box. S
Re: Recommended IDE...?
On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 08:38:43AM -0800, Paul Makepeace wrote: > On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 4:27 AM, Dave Cross wrote: >> Every few years I try installing Eclipse and EPIC and then look on appalled >> as my machine grinds to a halt. > Trade in your gold cat for a computer with an SSD drive. It's night & day > with Eclipse. This here machine *has* an SSD, but because it has a mere two cores and 8GB of RAM, Eclipse is still hateful.
Re: Recommended IDE...?
On 18 January 2014 10:31, Simon Cozens wrote: > > Windows >> > "He doesn't like you." > "I don't like you". "You just watch yourself. We're wanted men. I have the death sentence on 12 systems. "I'll be careful" "You'll be dead!" > If you're trying to develop software in such a hostile environment, no > amount of support from the editor is going to help you. > We have light sabers.
Re: Recommended IDE...?
On 17 January 2014 10:18, Andrew wrote: > Looking to try using an Integrated Development Environment. > Is there an industry standard everyone uses and I should get familiar with, > or will any do? > You've already received some recommendations. Do you mind sharing what sort of development you plan to do with the IDE? > My previous experience is with NotePad and TextWrangler. > I've Windows98SE and OSX 10.5.8 [Leopard] ;-), and use both in tandem via a > KVM switch, XD. > > Windows 98, hmm. I used to really like a Windows IDE called CodeWright years ago. You might still be able to get hold of a version that works on your system.
Re: Recommended IDE...?
On Jan 18, 2014, at 6:50 AM, Abigail wrote: > I don't know what professionalisme is, but I doubt it's criticizing > someone who doesn't complain about being forced to use a "crappy windows > environment", but rather states how he deals with it. > > I also don't think it's proffessional if you start your sentences with > a lowercase letter, and format your paragraphs using both very short and > overly long lines. >From one of my favourite books :-) “The term unprofessional is often used to characterize surprising and threatening behavior. Anything that upsets the weak manager is almost by definition unprofessional. So popcorn is unprofessional. Long hair is unprofessional if it grows out of a male head, but perfectly okay if it grows out of a female head. Posters of any kind are unprofessional. Comfortable shoes are unprofessional. Dancing around your desk when something good happens is unprofessional. Giggling and laughing is unprofessional. (It’s all right to smile, but not too often.) Conversely, professional means unsurprising. You will be considered professional to the extent you look, act, and think like everyone else, a perfect drone. Of course, this perverted sense of professionalism is pathological. In a healthier organizational culture, people are thought professional to the extent they are knowledgeable and competent.” Excerpt From: Tom DeMarco & Timothy Lister: “Peopleware: Productive Projects and Teams, Third Edition” -- Mike Stok http://www.stok.ca/~mike/ The "`Stok' disclaimers" apply.
Re: Recommended IDE...?
People said things: > >>> > >>> no-administrator-access > >> > >> > >> "I don't trust you". > >> > >>> Windows > >> > >> > >> "I don't like you". > >> > >> If you're trying to develop software in such a hostile environment, no > >> amount of support from the editor is going to help you. > > > > Welcome to 2014. I work in the same environment as do the majority of > > people who work commercially in large companies as opposed to hobbyist > > programmers at home. > > not knowing you personally, I do take this quite offensive. > > > To me a locked down Windows desktop without local admin access is no > > obstacle since all I need is a browser (Firefox portable) and SSH > > client (putty) to access a UNIX system where I do have root access. > > as if 'using a crappy windows environment' is a sign of professionalism > as opposed to > tons of programmers and developers that actually maintain Perl itself and > the bulk amount of CPAN > that either work on their fancy MacBooks > or work on some Linux configure laptop with multiple VMs And here we have, in a nutshell (TM) the reason why a large portion of the IT community thinks perl is in decline. Some one came in, asked a question, and a slanging match ensued. This is not what the community needs. We need to encourage people, not bite their heads off. Grow up, all of you! -- And a big "Hiya" goes out to the fun crew from GCHQ.
Re: Recommended IDE...?
On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 12:32:29PM +0100, Th. J. van Hoesel wrote: > > Op 18 jan. 2014, om 11:58 heeft Steve Mynott het volgende geschreven: > > > On 18 January 2014 10:31, Simon Cozens wrote: > >> On 18/01/2014 02:48, William Blunn wrote: > >>> > >>> no-administrator-access > >> > >> > >> "I don't trust you". > >> > >>> Windows > >> > >> > >> "I don't like you". > >> > >> If you're trying to develop software in such a hostile environment, no > >> amount of support from the editor is going to help you. > > > > Welcome to 2014. I work in the same environment as do the majority of > > people who work commercially in large companies as opposed to hobbyist > > programmers at home. > > not knowing you personally, I do take this quite offensive. Why? And so what? > > To me a locked down Windows desktop without local admin access is no > > obstacle since all I need is a browser (Firefox portable) and SSH > > client (putty) to access a UNIX system where I do have root access. > > as if 'using a crappy windows environment' is a sign of professionalism > as opposed to > tons of programmers and developers that actually maintain Perl itself and the > bulk amount of CPAN > that either work on their fancy MacBooks > or work on some Linux configure laptop with multiple VMs I don't know what professionalisme is, but I doubt it's criticizing someone who doesn't complain about being forced to use a "crappy windows environment", but rather states how he deals with it. I also don't think it's proffessional if you start your sentences with a lowercase letter, and format your paragraphs using both very short and overly long lines. I also don't get the idea that Perl programmers should use the same environments as the majority of the people maintaining perl do. Does that mean that if I don't wear a white jacket while eating meat, isn't professional, because butchers typically do? Abigail
Re: Recommended IDE...?
Op 18 jan. 2014, om 11:58 heeft Steve Mynott het volgende geschreven: > On 18 January 2014 10:31, Simon Cozens wrote: >> On 18/01/2014 02:48, William Blunn wrote: >>> >>> no-administrator-access >> >> >> "I don't trust you". >> >>> Windows >> >> >> "I don't like you". >> >> If you're trying to develop software in such a hostile environment, no >> amount of support from the editor is going to help you. > > Welcome to 2014. I work in the same environment as do the majority of > people who work commercially in large companies as opposed to hobbyist > programmers at home. not knowing you personally, I do take this quite offensive. > To me a locked down Windows desktop without local admin access is no > obstacle since all I need is a browser (Firefox portable) and SSH > client (putty) to access a UNIX system where I do have root access. as if 'using a crappy windows environment' is a sign of professionalism as opposed to tons of programmers and developers that actually maintain Perl itself and the bulk amount of CPAN that either work on their fancy MacBooks or work on some Linux configure laptop with multiple VMs > I've even successfully ran a Linux guest on QEMU on a Windows host > without local admin access. Working around these restrictions can > even be fun. > > I have developed Perl code on and targeted at Windows but don't > believe it's a common use case. > > Anyway why are we still arguing about paintbrushes rather than > building a new bike shed to replace the one which is showing signs of > collapse? Which Bike-shed? Perl itself? TIMTOWTDI IDE's? > S # # Send-a-Newbie - YAPC::EU::2013 Kiev # proudly sponsored by the community # http://www.send-a-newbie.enlightenedperl.org #
Re: Recommended IDE...?
On 18 January 2014 10:31, Simon Cozens wrote: > On 18/01/2014 02:48, William Blunn wrote: >> >> no-administrator-access > > > "I don't trust you". > >> Windows > > > "I don't like you". > > If you're trying to develop software in such a hostile environment, no > amount of support from the editor is going to help you. Welcome to 2014. I work in the same environment as do the majority of people who work commercially in large companies as opposed to hobbyist programmers at home. To me a locked down Windows desktop without local admin access is no obstacle since all I need is a browser (Firefox portable) and SSH client (putty) to access a UNIX system where I do have root access. I've even successfully ran a Linux guest on QEMU on a Windows host without local admin access. Working around these restrictions can even be fun. I have developed Perl code on and targeted at Windows but don't believe it's a common use case. Anyway why are we still arguing about paintbrushes rather than building a new bike shed to replace the one which is showing signs of collapse? S
Re: Recommended IDE...?
On 18/01/2014 02:48, William Blunn wrote: no-administrator-access "I don't trust you". Windows "I don't like you". If you're trying to develop software in such a hostile environment, no amount of support from the editor is going to help you.
Re: Recommended IDE...?
On 17/01/2014 10:18, Andrew wrote: Looking to try using an Integrated Development Environment. Is there an industry standard everyone uses and I should get familiar with, or will any do? My previous experience is with NotePad and TextWrangler. I've been using Sublime Text for a while, first under OSX, recently under Windows. Whilst I haven't used it myself under Linux, I've sat next to someone who did, and it seemed to work well there too. There's a even a portable version for anyone unfortunate enough to working in no-administrator-access Windows environments. I've Windows98SE and OSX 10.5.8 [Leopard];-), and use both in tandem via a KVM switch, XD. Why are you telling us about your retro-computing hobby setup rather than what you use for serious work? Regards, Bill
Re: Recommended IDE...?
On 18 January 2014 06:17, Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes wrote: > If you already mentioned those things, I missed it. Perhaps Kent did too. > Didn't read like a rant to me, just information. > Actually, upon double checking my mailing list log, I do see his requirements listed now. Though it was a in a seperate message, and my limited short-term memory and attention span unfortunately eclipsed, thinking it was 2 posts by 2 people, so I was responding to second as if the first had never existed. My mistake, sorry. Here's the relevant context: - contextual code completion, for example method names on a given object > (requires knowing what class / role that object is expected to > implement/perform) > - automated refactorings (e.g. "replace conditional with polymorphism" or > "extract inner class") > - workflow-based rather than simply file-based integration with testing, > version control, issue trackers > (and probably a load more but I have work I should be doing) > And indeed, those are hard things to deliver from a text-editor oriented system, which has no sense of project. And some of those are a bit hard to do in Perl in my experience. If you need those things and are in Java, then yes, upgrading to an IDE gives you those things. But my last IDE exploration indicated those things were still impossible/nightmarishly hard/broken on Perl. The workflow stuff does exist for Vim however, there's Git addons , and ability to run project tests, just they're atypical. ( And most IDEs for java don't come with Git support out of the box yet either ) -- Kent
Re: Recommended IDE...?
On 18 January 2014 05:59, Paul Makepeace wrote: > The rest of your answer and several others in this thread (not to be > combative) is pretty much the I'm Not Familiar With IDEs So I'm Going > To Be Dismissive of Them and Rationalize Why They Suck Anti-Pattern. > Not true. I have used IDE's in the past. And I've done Java work in the past. And by proxy of my rant, I explain there is no alternative *in java* Just for "perl" work, Java-style'd IDEs seem to be ineffective. At least for me. And I'm not saying "don't use one", go ahead, they just "don't work for me". I do know people are happy with Komodo, and I do know people are happy with Padre, and if that's what you're looking for, try them out. I guess my point was that people may also be unaware of features available in non-java-style IDE's, which do what they're looking for. Basically, I'm not saying you should be using "an IDE" or "An advanced IDE-like text editor", simply to clarify the set of features you're looking for, so that we may more objectively provide tools that meet those feature set requirements. For instance, if you're looking for interactive re-factoring and replacement tools like Eclipse has, then I don't know of anything comparable for Perl, and if you feel you need that, then do continue to explore java-style IDEs. However, if your featureset requirements can be satisified with a well tailored editor, that may be a good alternative too. -- Kent
Re: Recommended IDE...?
On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 8:56 AM, Joel Bernstein wrote: > I don't feel like this was in any way a reply to what I asked. You seem to > be trying to pick holes in the idea of "integration" as a differentiator > between a programmer's editor and an IDE. This seems at best to be missing > the point. I already mentioned, for example, integration with testing, > version control, issue trackers, and made clear that I meant this on a > workflow rather than merely per-file basis. Can you ask a better question? > Or perhaps you did, but it got lost in the ranting? If you already mentioned those things, I missed it. Perhaps Kent did too. Didn't read like a rant to me, just information.
Re: Recommended IDE...?
I don't feel like this was in any way a reply to what I asked. You seem to be trying to pick holes in the idea of "integration" as a differentiator between a programmer's editor and an IDE. This seems at best to be missing the point. I already mentioned, for example, integration with testing, version control, issue trackers, and made clear that I meant this on a workflow rather than merely per-file basis. Can you ask a better question? Or perhaps you did, but it got lost in the ranting? /joel On 17 January 2014 17:27, Kent Fredric wrote: > On 17 January 2014 23:36, Joel Bernstein wrote: > > > But vim isn't an IDE, at least not as I understand one. Isn't there a > > distinction to be made between "IDE" and "programmable text editor", in > > terms of the "integration"? I've heard people assert that dynamic > languages > > don't mix with IDEs but AFAIK most IDE features come from the Smalltalk > > browser, and Smalltalk is of course an incredibly dynamic language in > terms > > of typing and dispatch. > > > > I'm curious what the definition of "Integrated" means in this context. > > - Vim supports embedded Perl execution > - Vim extensions support running perl code from vim > - Vim extensions support running tests from vim > - Vim extensions do provide some kinds of method completion, albeit limited > and execute in a rather global scope. > > I don't use most of those features, but I guess what I'm saying is, when > you say "IDE", what features are you expecting as a result? > > Many the features you require are available as vim extensions, and many of > the features you expect of languages like Java are mostly unsupportable in > many IDE's as long as IDE's don't want to evaluate your code as-is. ( ie: > Java can make assumptions about what types are because of obvious lexical > markers of what types they are, and can look at those type definitions to > determine applicable methods. But its not foolproof, and if the type > casting casts the wrong types and will fail at runtime, java will still > complete methods for the assumed types as if they are valid ) > > http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=556 > > This vim extension provides most the features I look for in a Perl IDE, > which isn't really much, and it provides a whole lot of things I never use. > > The difference though for me, is in Java, you literally can't work on any > serious project without an IDE, some projects are so IDE centric that you > can /only/ work on them with the projects choice of IDE, or it can be very > non-obvious at least, how to work with a project with a different IDE. > > And for perly people, that requirement is a bit of a tall order. Many > people dislike the dzil toolkit because of 'the installtime' ( kinda > because they're not aware dzil authors do somewhat optimise for > contribution to be possible without dzil : > > http://www.dagolden.com/index.php/2275/distzilla-haters-shut-your-whiny-yaps/ > ), > but I'd rather be installing dzil than eclipse, or some other bloated > IDE, let alone a bloated IDE which is payware!. > > Though many Perl people can and do use IDE's for their stuff, I regularly > try IDE's and find them unusable for Perl things, and it makes me feel like > I'm lying down, thrashing, trying to get things done, essentially being > hamstrung by IDE's sense of workflow, when I could just be spawning a text > editor, making the fixes, and be done with it. > > > -- > Kent > >
Re: Recommended IDE...?
On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 8:27 AM, Kent Fredric wrote: > I'm curious what the definition of "Integrated" means in this context. Think of it as "already integrated" :) Sure you could make your editor do stuff like an IDE but the IDE *already does it*. The scripting IDEs from JetBrains do dynamic code parsing and it's good enough to appear to be black magic. The rest of your answer and several others in this thread (not to be combative) is pretty much the I'm Not Familiar With IDEs So I'm Going To Be Dismissive of Them and Rationalize Why They Suck Anti-Pattern. This is an anti-pattern because the OP asked for IDE recommendations not for any existential commentary. Paul
Re: Recommended IDE...?
On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 4:27 AM, Dave Cross wrote: > > Every few years I try installing Eclipse and EPIC and then look on appalled > as my machine grinds to a halt. Trade in your gold cat for a computer with an SSD drive. It's night & day with Eclipse. I'd second JetBrains' products; their support is really good too and they have a very accessible bug tracker. No Perl IDE yet but there's a lot of desire for one, http://plugins.jetbrains.com/wishlist/show?pr=&wid=368 and http://youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/IDEABKL-6838 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/537078/is-there-a-perl-plugin-for-intellij has info on writing a plugin for IntelliJ (the core IDE) Paul
Re: Recommended IDE...?
On 17 January 2014 23:36, Joel Bernstein wrote: > But vim isn't an IDE, at least not as I understand one. Isn't there a > distinction to be made between "IDE" and "programmable text editor", in > terms of the "integration"? I've heard people assert that dynamic languages > don't mix with IDEs but AFAIK most IDE features come from the Smalltalk > browser, and Smalltalk is of course an incredibly dynamic language in terms > of typing and dispatch. > I'm curious what the definition of "Integrated" means in this context. - Vim supports embedded Perl execution - Vim extensions support running perl code from vim - Vim extensions support running tests from vim - Vim extensions do provide some kinds of method completion, albeit limited and execute in a rather global scope. I don't use most of those features, but I guess what I'm saying is, when you say "IDE", what features are you expecting as a result? Many the features you require are available as vim extensions, and many of the features you expect of languages like Java are mostly unsupportable in many IDE's as long as IDE's don't want to evaluate your code as-is. ( ie: Java can make assumptions about what types are because of obvious lexical markers of what types they are, and can look at those type definitions to determine applicable methods. But its not foolproof, and if the type casting casts the wrong types and will fail at runtime, java will still complete methods for the assumed types as if they are valid ) http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=556 This vim extension provides most the features I look for in a Perl IDE, which isn't really much, and it provides a whole lot of things I never use. The difference though for me, is in Java, you literally can't work on any serious project without an IDE, some projects are so IDE centric that you can /only/ work on them with the projects choice of IDE, or it can be very non-obvious at least, how to work with a project with a different IDE. And for perly people, that requirement is a bit of a tall order. Many people dislike the dzil toolkit because of 'the installtime' ( kinda because they're not aware dzil authors do somewhat optimise for contribution to be possible without dzil : http://www.dagolden.com/index.php/2275/distzilla-haters-shut-your-whiny-yaps/), but I'd rather be installing dzil than eclipse, or some other bloated IDE, let alone a bloated IDE which is payware!. Though many Perl people can and do use IDE's for their stuff, I regularly try IDE's and find them unusable for Perl things, and it makes me feel like I'm lying down, thrashing, trying to get things done, essentially being hamstrung by IDE's sense of workflow, when I could just be spawning a text editor, making the fixes, and be done with it. -- Kent
Re: Recommended IDE...?
On 17/01/2014 10:18, Andrew wrote: Looking to try using an Integrated Development Environment. Is there an industry standard everyone uses and I should get familiar with, or will any do? Perl programmers don't tend to use an IDE. Most of us seem to use vi(m) or emacs. I've heard people say good things about Komodo. Every few years I try installing Eclipse and EPIC and then look on appalled as my machine grinds to a halt. Recently I've been using Padre and really like it. Cheers, Dave... p.s. You started this discussion by replying to an existing message and changing the subject line. Please don't do that. In my email program, this discussion is now annoyingly nested within the "LWP::UserAgent and Google thread".
Re: Recommended IDE...?
I would have been perfectly happy if Xcode for MacOS did the same thing for Perl as it does for Objective-C, it does all that: > - contextual code completion, for example method names on a given object > (requires knowing what class / role that object is expected to > implement/perform) > - automated refactorings (e.g. "replace conditional with polymorphism" or > "extract inner class") > - workflow-based rather than simply file-based integration with testing, > version control, issue trackers > (and probably a load more but I have work I should be doing) > Unfortunately, I can't get it further working for me (at this moment) as a nice code editor, with syntax highlighting and standard Perl autocompletion. It would be great if someone would know how do setup all targets and the build process for it. Annoyingly, our easy to write PODs are not conveniently being converted into a documentation bundles which is a lot of XML, PDF and SQLite. It would be great to see such a thing that already points out where your code fails while writing. # # Send-a-Newbie - YAPC::EU::2013 Kiev # proudly sponsored by the community # http://www.send-a-newbie.enlightenedperl.org #
Re: Recommended IDE...?
I liked the talk from Paul Johnson at last London Perl Workshop, (A Productivity Enhancing Perl Environment), and currently I'm using a very similar vim configuration http://pjcj.net/presentations/lpw-2013-environment/slides/ On 17 January 2014 10:50, James Laver wrote: > On 17 Jan 2014, at 10:18, Andrew wrote: > > > Looking to try using an Integrated Development Environment. > > Is there an industry standard everyone uses and I should get familiar > with, > > or will any do? > > > > My previous experience is with NotePad and TextWrangler. > > I've Windows98SE and OSX 10.5.8 [Leopard] ;-), and use both in tandem > via a > > KVM switch, XD. > > It’s rather a personal choice. If you’re writing Perl, I don’t think you > need anything other than a text editor. Komodo IDE has a lovely interface > for debugging though. > > My emacs configuration is quite IDE-like in many respects. I expect many > people have VIM configs that do more for you as well. > > In terms of actual IDEs, the standard is eclipse, I prefer Komodo. > > It really is intensely personal. Try a few. > > James > -- Dinis Rebolo dinisreb...@gmail.com
Re: Recommended IDE...?
On 17 Jan 2014, at 10:18, Andrew wrote: > Looking to try using an Integrated Development Environment. > Is there an industry standard everyone uses and I should get familiar with, > or will any do? > > My previous experience is with NotePad and TextWrangler. > I've Windows98SE and OSX 10.5.8 [Leopard] ;-), and use both in tandem via a > KVM switch, XD. It’s rather a personal choice. If you’re writing Perl, I don’t think you need anything other than a text editor. Komodo IDE has a lovely interface for debugging though. My emacs configuration is quite IDE-like in many respects. I expect many people have VIM configs that do more for you as well. In terms of actual IDEs, the standard is eclipse, I prefer Komodo. It really is intensely personal. Try a few. James
Re: Recommended IDE...?
On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 10:18:14AM -, Andrew wrote: > Looking to try using an Integrated Development Environment. > Is there an industry standard everyone uses No. > and I should get familiar with, > or will any do? I guess for any "ide" (for whatever definition of ide), there is at least someone who uses it happily. > My previous experience is with NotePad and TextWrangler. > I've Windows98SE and OSX 10.5.8 [Leopard] ;-), and use both in tandem via a > KVM switch, XD. Use whatever *YOU* feel most comformtable/efficient with. Don't let others make the decision for you. Some people prefer to learn a different tool for every language/company/platform they work with. Others just learn to use something generic, and use it for everything. I started with 'vi' 29 years ago, and a few years later, I added X-windows and switched to a vi-lookalike as editor. And I'm still using that, regardless of the programming language (or writing email, creating LaTeX documents, or something else). And over the years, I've been able to use that IDE on Solaris, HP-UX, SGI, Cygwin, AIX, a handful of flavours of Linux, and MacOS X. I doubt it's an industry standard, and many will not even call "vi + xterms" to be and IDE, but it works for me. And if I switch to a different project, I spend zero time learning a new IDE. Abigail
Re: Recommended IDE...?
I'd suggest either: Vim Emacs Sublime http://www.sublimetext.com/ (this is what I use) Padre http://padre.perlide.org/ All will work on Windows, OSX or Linux Leo On 17 January 2014 10:18, Andrew wrote: > Looking to try using an Integrated Development Environment. > Is there an industry standard everyone uses and I should get familiar with, > or will any do? > > My previous experience is with NotePad and TextWrangler. > I've Windows98SE and OSX 10.5.8 [Leopard] ;-), and use both in tandem via a > KVM switch, XD. > > Thanks in advance, =). > > Yours, > Andrew. > >
Re: Recommended IDE...?
On 17 January 2014 11:25, Toddy wrote: > Vim is probably the most popular But vim isn't an IDE, at least not as I understand one. Isn't there a distinction to be made between "IDE" and "programmable text editor", in terms of the "integration"? I've heard people assert that dynamic languages don't mix with IDEs but AFAIK most IDE features come from the Smalltalk browser, and Smalltalk is of course an incredibly dynamic language in terms of typing and dispatch. /joel
Re: Recommended IDE...?
There is no industry standard at all. What are you hoping to achieve from an IDE? For the most part I use vim for Perl and Ruby coding, but I've used IDEs for other languages in the past. My requirements for an IDE for C are very different from those for an IDE for Java, let alone for a language essentially integrated with the IDE like Smalltalk. Apart from the ancient and venerable VisualAge -- perfect for Smalltalk -- the best IDEs I've seen, in general, come from JetBrains (formerly IntelliJ, which is now the name of their Java IDE). The line between editor and IDE blurs a bit but there are some IDE features which I rarely see provided by programmable editors like emacs and vim (and which can be quite difficult to provide for dynamic languages without executing them): - contextual code completion, for example method names on a given object (requires knowing what class / role that object is expected to implement/perform) - automated refactorings (e.g. "replace conditional with polymorphism" or "extract inner class") - workflow-based rather than simply file-based integration with testing, version control, issue trackers (and probably a load more but I have work I should be doing) You should consider which of these features are important to you, and in which languages. Additionally, what you expect to achieve from an IDE, and how patient you'll be when its half-arsed parser misunderstands some modern Perl concept or syntax. I suspect that, at least for Perl, you may be better served with a well configured GUI vim with a decent set of plugins, rather than an actual IDE. For Ruby, the same, but take a look at RubyMine anyway. For Java, IntelliJ is the best choice. That said, I've never used Visual Studio, which some seem to think is the best IDE around. PS: Win98SE and a 6 year old version of OS X? Did you just flush the outbox of an email client you hadn't looked at for a while? /joel On 17 January 2014 11:18, Andrew wrote: > Looking to try using an Integrated Development Environment. > Is there an industry standard everyone uses and I should get familiar with, > or will any do? > > My previous experience is with NotePad and TextWrangler. > I've Windows98SE and OSX 10.5.8 [Leopard] ;-), and use both in tandem via a > KVM switch, XD. > > Thanks in advance, =). > > Yours, > Andrew. > > >
Re: Recommended IDE...?
Eclipse with the EPIC Perl plugin. For more basic stuff, there is Geany at http://www.geany.org/. -- Job Andrew schreef op 17-1-2014 11:18: Looking to try using an Integrated Development Environment. Is there an industry standard everyone uses and I should get familiar with, or will any do? My previous experience is with NotePad and TextWrangler. I've Windows98SE and OSX 10.5.8 [Leopard] ;-), and use both in tandem via a KVM switch, XD. Thanks in advance, =). Yours, Andrew.
Re: Recommended IDE...?
Vim is probably the most popular. If you prefer something with a GUI, I'd recommend Komodo Edit (or Komodo IDE if you want more features and don't mind paying!). On 17 January 2014 10:18, Andrew wrote: > Looking to try using an Integrated Development Environment. > Is there an industry standard everyone uses and I should get familiar with, > or will any do? > > My previous experience is with NotePad and TextWrangler. > I've Windows98SE and OSX 10.5.8 [Leopard] ;-), and use both in tandem via a > KVM switch, XD. > > Thanks in advance, =). > > Yours, > Andrew. > >
