Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] 64-bit install?

2010-06-04 Thread M. Daub
Hi Andrew,
hello *,

I know, that the packge manager pull down the 64-bit version, if they exist. 
But I assume, that the package manager will get the 32-bit version if this is 
the only one of the package.

So to be more precisely:

1.) Does all the maintainers of the various packages needed for lubuntu-
desktop (lxde-..., pcmanfm, osmo, deadbeef, ...) provide 64-bit versions?

2.) If some components are only provided as 32-bit, are there any concerns 
about such a mixed-system?

Best regards 

Marcus



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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] 64-bit install?

2010-06-04 Thread Andrew Woodhead
The packages in the metapackage will be available in both 32bit and 64bit.

On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 10:37 AM, M. Daub m.d...@web.de wrote:

 Hi Andrew,
 hello *,

 I know, that the packge manager pull down the 64-bit version, if they
 exist.
 But I assume, that the package manager will get the 32-bit version if this
 is
 the only one of the package.

 So to be more precisely:

 1.) Does all the maintainers of the various packages needed for lubuntu-
 desktop (lxde-..., pcmanfm, osmo, deadbeef, ...) provide 64-bit versions?

 2.) If some components are only provided as 32-bit, are there any concerns
 about such a mixed-system?

 Best regards

 Marcus



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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] 64-bit install?

2010-06-04 Thread Phillip Whiteside
Hi,

we seem to have lost where lubuntu 10.04 actually got up to.

Stable == Not crashing every 5 minutes.
Beta == Not a finished product.

As it was not even launched as 'RC' (Release Candidate) The reason you say
it behaves as a 'beta' is because that is exactly what it is.

IMHO, considering the 'fun' that was caused by Service Pack 2 for Windoze XP
(I also spell it the same way, but we get told off for that on the forums,
M$ is not allowed either) which was a full release that people paid good
money for, says a lot for the team being completely honest and open about
the state of development when April arrived.

As for regressions, I hope you are on the mailing list for Meerkat, I
thoroughly enjoyed the Lynx one even though most of the stuff was way beyond
my technical expertise. You get to see 'old' bugs resurfacing and patches
being removed as people have time to re-write sections of code more fully.

An example to me of how the very small team for lubuntu operates is easily
shown when the author of pcmanfm basically tore up all the code and started
again. It takes a 'big man' to appreciate they're boxing themselves into a
corner  re-hashing the lot.

As a further example of how bugs re-surface, go take a look at
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-manager/+bug/529794?comments=allI'm
still wondering how they broke it, not only in the testing cycle for
10.04, but managed to break it, retrospectively in 9.10.

But, we can do with our computers what we wish, we can use what ever
'flavour' of linux we choose - and we get to do all of that for free, unlike
some other operating systems that are 'out there'. It would be a very bad
day when there was only one version of linux out there.

You may want to have a read of
http://forum.phillw.net/viewtopic.php?f=18t=61 which is my take on the
*buntu family, I also do recommend people who are arguing the finer things
in life take a read of
http://www.jonobacon.org/2008/12/19/the-ubuntu-ethos/just so as you do
not loose sight of things we take for granted.

May the many discussions about linux carry on, for we only need worry when
there are no discussions. So far, so good - pop over to
http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=385 and hear the testers putting
the ubuntu world to right ;-)

Regards,

Phill.

On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 11:06 PM, CAD Outsourcing cad...@gmail.com wrote:

 hi Chow,
 I understand what you are saying, and you are perfectly correct in a
 theoretical world. You can be arrogant all you want, but that is not going
 to change the fact that we livein an imperfect world, where all the planets
 and starts are NOT in alignment to make everything work perfectly as you
 mention, when recompiling for 64bit. In the real world we live in,
 applications are not perfect, many things aren't done perfectly, especially
 when you have programmer contributors with various backgrounds,
 philosophies, and skill levels.
 The proof is in the bugs.  The proof is all the other 64 bit Ubuntus out
 there that are reputed to be less stable than their 32bit counterparts...
 even by their developers own admission, as you can often see the mention on
 the download pages 64bit is generally less stable. If you want a stable
 version, download the 32bit can often be read.
 Saying the opposite is either ignorant pretentiousness, or just a big
 battle of egos going on.  None of which is productve in any way to the
 bettering of the project.
 Some of the points you brought up as an attempt in displaying
 contradictions, were made to demonstrate the contradictions made by the
 Lubuntu team: trying to make a faster distro that will run better on old
 hardware, and sacrificing stability, for a no-benefits-64bit version for the
 computers this is going onto.
 ANYONE with a very very very fast computer will NOT be able to perceive the
 SLIGHTEST performance difference on their computer, brought about by this
 distro in 64bit. BUT what they WILL see, what will stick out like a sore
 thumb, is the elements of the distro that were neglected and are still
 buggy.
 Don't be naïve: 64bit DOES require extra human resources - there is a lot
 of debugging and fixing to do, because once it is recompiled in 64, strange
 things happen... and when you run those 32 bit apps on a 64 bit OS, you'll
 slow down anything that is not the new generation intels of this year (not
 exactly the crowd that would want lubuntu anyways).
 (It's the same problem as we had with .com versus .exe program files in DOS
 and Windoze (I just like to call it windoze) - many were not compiled so
 they still need an interpreter, because after compilation they may not have
 been as stable.  Otherwise everything would have been compiled on that
 platform.)
 And btw, all the apps we need are not all available in 64 bit. Skype for
 one, Gimp, and many others as well.
 If we had to choose, we would rather see a bug-free 32 bit version, and
 only 32 bit available, than having both maintained but some elements or
 

Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] 64-bit install?

2010-06-04 Thread CAD Outsourcing
I feel humbled by your eloquent way of defusing a situation that threatens
to get out of hand.  A bright mind you are.

BTW, we can use the term windoze on the forums and anywhere else we
please, because the trademarks that Microsoft has the rights to are MS,
XP, Microsoft, Windows and the like, not multiple sclerosis, not
microsoot, not windoze...

Of course, you will always see marketing people, and professional public
relationists, hired by the powers that be, use intimidation and any other
ways, on forums and anywhere else, as part of the company's overall
marketing and image campaign... generously funded I need not add.  (which
may even include threats made to forum owners...

Ironically, if you study the other kind of IP (as in intellectual
property), you will notice that whenever we do use the proper trademarked
terms, they COULD hit us legally for not including the mention windows is a
registered trademark of microsoft corporation each and every time we write
it... and we don't see them doing that now, do we?  because then everyone
would start using the term windoze to avoid such legal enforcement.

Windoze Windoze Windoze Windoze Windoze Windoze Windoze Windoze Windoze*
there! hahaha

* Windoze is not a registered trademark of M$



On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 18:42, Phillip Whiteside phi...@phillw.net wrote:

 Hi,

 we seem to have lost where lubuntu 10.04 actually got up to.

 Stable == Not crashing every 5 minutes.
 Beta == Not a finished product.

 As it was not even launched as 'RC' (Release Candidate) The reason you say
 it behaves as a 'beta' is because that is exactly what it is.

 IMHO, considering the 'fun' that was caused by Service Pack 2 for Windoze
 XP (I also spell it the same way, but we get told off for that on the
 forums, M$ is not allowed either) which was a full release that people paid
 good money for, says a lot for the team being completely honest and open
 about the state of development when April arrived.

 As for regressions, I hope you are on the mailing list for Meerkat, I
 thoroughly enjoyed the Lynx one even though most of the stuff was way beyond
 my technical expertise. You get to see 'old' bugs resurfacing and patches
 being removed as people have time to re-write sections of code more fully.

 An example to me of how the very small team for lubuntu operates is easily
 shown when the author of pcmanfm basically tore up all the code and started
 again. It takes a 'big man' to appreciate they're boxing themselves into a
 corner  re-hashing the lot.

 As a further example of how bugs re-surface, go take a look at
 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-manager/+bug/529794?comments=allI'm
  still wondering how they broke it, not only in the testing cycle for
 10.04, but managed to break it, retrospectively in 9.10.

 But, we can do with our computers what we wish, we can use what ever
 'flavour' of linux we choose - and we get to do all of that for free, unlike
 some other operating systems that are 'out there'. It would be a very bad
 day when there was only one version of linux out there.

 You may want to have a read of
 http://forum.phillw.net/viewtopic.php?f=18t=61 which is my take on the
 *buntu family, I also do recommend people who are arguing the finer things
 in life take a read of
 http://www.jonobacon.org/2008/12/19/the-ubuntu-ethos/ just so as you do
 not loose sight of things we take for granted.

 May the many discussions about linux carry on, for we only need worry when
 there are no discussions. So far, so good - pop over to
 http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=385 and hear the testers
 putting the ubuntu world to right ;-)

 Regards,

 Phill.

 On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 11:06 PM, CAD Outsourcing cad...@gmail.com wrote:

 hi Chow,
 I understand what you are saying, and you are perfectly correct in a
 theoretical world. You can be arrogant all you want, but that is not going
 to change the fact that we livein an imperfect world, where all the planets
 and starts are NOT in alignment to make everything work perfectly as you
 mention, when recompiling for 64bit. In the real world we live in,
 applications are not perfect, many things aren't done perfectly, especially
 when you have programmer contributors with various backgrounds,
 philosophies, and skill levels.
 The proof is in the bugs.  The proof is all the other 64 bit Ubuntus out
 there that are reputed to be less stable than their 32bit counterparts...
 even by their developers own admission, as you can often see the mention on
 the download pages 64bit is generally less stable. If you want a stable
 version, download the 32bit can often be read.
 Saying the opposite is either ignorant pretentiousness, or just a big
 battle of egos going on.  None of which is productve in any way to the
 bettering of the project.
 Some of the points you brought up as an attempt in displaying
 contradictions, were made to demonstrate the contradictions made by the
 Lubuntu team: trying to make a faster 

Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] 64-bit install?

2010-06-04 Thread PCMan
Here are my two cents:

1. Compiling for 64-bit will make executable binaries bigger and takes
more disk space
2. because of #1, 64-bit apps uses more memory, but the difference is minimal
3. the performance of most apps are bound to I/O and mainly affected
by speed of hard drives and internet transmission speed, not CPU. So
don't expect any visible performance gain if you go 64-bit. Most of
the deskop apps nowadays are I/O bound and 64-bit memory access won't
help much and the I/O can even increase due to increased binary sizes.
Get 64-bit version of nautilus and you'll see what I mean.
4. A well written C program can be used both in 32 and 64 bit
environment without any modification. So no additional develop work is
needed. If a C program runs in 32, but crashes in 64, that's a bug.
It's a packaging issue, not a developing one. No modification to
source code is not needed so developers are only needed for
packaging/testing, not coding. Given the automated build system, not
many developers are needed. Otherwise, it's a bug.
5. CPU intensive programs can benefit from 64 bit since your CPU can
handle more data in the same time, but this only holds true when the
applications are designed to take advantage of it. Most of our daily
apps won't get performance gain. Actually some will even become
slower. Try it at home if you don't believe it.

Conclusion:
1. Going 64-bit won't give much visible performance gain. So it's not
a must-have.
2. Going 64-bit won't take much work and should be easy, unless there
are bugs. So there is no reason not to do it. This can help find
potential bugs.
3. If a program runs well in 32-bit OS, but fail to run in 64-bit one,
this is not an architecture problem. It's a bug. Please report it
instead of complain of 64-bit.

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] 64-bit install?

2010-06-04 Thread Bob Trevithick
On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 10:51 PM, PCMan pcman...@gmail.com wrote:

snip

 3. If a program runs well in 32-bit OS, but fail to run in 64-bit one,
 this is not an architecture problem. It's a bug. Please report it
 instead of complain of 64-bit.

One example I found when playing with the Mini CD 64-bit install is
that NetworkManager Applet 0.8 doesn't work correctly in 64-bit.  The
eth0 connection itself works, but the applet reports there are no
network connections at all.  It also doesn't display it's icon in the
panel, although right-clicking on the space where it should be shows
it's actually there.

I'm guessing this is the sort of thing you're referring to, and which
should be reported as a bug?

Thanks,
Bob

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] 64-bit install?

2010-06-02 Thread Bob Trevithick
Hi Phill,

Sorry this took so long!  I'm happy to report that doing the install
with the 64-bit Mini CD worked just fine.  I haven't had time to try
everything, of course, but I've found zero problems so far.

Just one note on the install instruction; one step is to do a sudo
apt-get dist-upgrade.  When I did this, it told me there were zero
packages to install.  Perhaps that step could be removed, or perhaps
it's needed only sometimes.

Anyway, looking good so far for 64-bit.  Let me know if there's
anything special you'd like me to try.

Regards,
Bob

On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 10:15 AM, Phillip Whiteside phi...@phillw.net wrote:
 Hi Bob,

 if you could try using the instructions at
 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/DocumentationHelp#Minimal%20Install  Just go
 get the 64 bit instead of 32 bit mini-iso from
 http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/lucid/main/installer-amd64/current/images/netboot/
 I'd be grateful if you could reply back with how you get on, I have been
 asked a couple of times about such a method but not had anyone say yes it
 does work (or no, it does not).

 Regards,

 Phill.

 On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 2:40 PM, Bob Trevithick bob.trevith...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 9:34 AM, Andrew Woodhead
 andrew.woodhead...@googlemail.com wrote:
  Yes thats on way to get 64bit Lubuntu. You want a minimal amount of
  stuff
  installing to then install the metapackage. Your networking will need to
  be
  workable from command line too.

 Thanks.  Will this testing benefit the project, or would it be best to
 wait until you actually do a 64-bit version (if you do)?

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] 64-bit install?

2010-06-02 Thread Phillip Whiteside
Hi Bob,

thanks for getting back, you are still the first one to confirm it works.
The apt-get dist-upgrade could well be a bit of over-kill, but I'd rather it
spend a few moments working out all is well in the world than miss it out
and find out it is needed in certain circumstances :-)

What, with Yorvyk having a method to run lubuntu with RAID, this 'little,
low resource for older computers' version of the Ubuntu family is certainly
living up to my saying that although it is a low resource version, it is in
no way a crippled one.

Regards,

Phill.
P.S. I'd just like to add that I do appreciate the small team cannot support
people doing such 'odd' things to lubuntu, but you can all congratulate
yourselves on making one heck of a release.

On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 8:35 PM, Bob Trevithick bob.trevith...@gmail.comwrote:

 Hi Phill,

 Sorry this took so long!  I'm happy to report that doing the install
 with the 64-bit Mini CD worked just fine.  I haven't had time to try
 everything, of course, but I've found zero problems so far.

 Just one note on the install instruction; one step is to do a sudo
 apt-get dist-upgrade.  When I did this, it told me there were zero
 packages to install.  Perhaps that step could be removed, or perhaps
 it's needed only sometimes.

 Anyway, looking good so far for 64-bit.  Let me know if there's
 anything special you'd like me to try.

 Regards,
 Bob

 On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 10:15 AM, Phillip Whiteside phi...@phillw.net
 wrote:
  Hi Bob,
 
  if you could try using the instructions at
  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/DocumentationHelp#Minimal%20Install
 Just go
  get the 64 bit instead of 32 bit mini-iso from
 
 http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/lucid/main/installer-amd64/current/images/netboot/
  I'd be grateful if you could reply back with how you get on, I have been
  asked a couple of times about such a method but not had anyone say yes it
  does work (or no, it does not).
 
  Regards,
 
  Phill.
 
  On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 2:40 PM, Bob Trevithick 
 bob.trevith...@gmail.com
  wrote:
 
  On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 9:34 AM, Andrew Woodhead
  andrew.woodhead...@googlemail.com wrote:
   Yes thats on way to get 64bit Lubuntu. You want a minimal amount of
   stuff
   installing to then install the metapackage. Your networking will need
 to
   be
   workable from command line too.
 
  Thanks.  Will this testing benefit the project, or would it be best to
  wait until you actually do a 64-bit version (if you do)?
 
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] 64-bit install?

2010-06-02 Thread Bob Trevithick
On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 4:54 PM, Phillip Whiteside phi...@phillw.net wrote:
 Hi Bob,
 thanks for getting back, you are still the first one to confirm it works.
 The apt-get dist-upgrade could well be a bit of over-kill, but I'd rather it
 spend a few moments working out all is well in the world than miss it out
 and find out it is needed in certain circumstances :-)

Hi Phill,

My only concern about the dist-upgrade is that, well, somebody might
not *want* to do a distribution upgrade. :-)  They might inadvertently
do one because they think this one command is essential.  Or maybe I
just misunderstand the command myself?

I'm thinking that someone might be building their system based on
10.04, and 10.10 might be lurking and ready to pounce on them if they
issue this command?  Just thinking out loud. ;-)

Yes, it's a lovely distro!  I never boot anything else now.  I'm sure
I'm going to remove Ubuntu Gnome from my system, as it just sits there
now taking up space.  I really never go into it for anything.
Lubuntu, with a bit of idiosyncratic massaging on my part, is exactly
what I've been looking for.

Regards,
Bob

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] 64-bit install?

2010-06-02 Thread Steve
On Wed, 02 Jun 2010 21:54:31 +0100, Phillip Whiteside phi...@phillw.net  
wrote:



Hi Bob,

thanks for getting back, you are still the first one to confirm it works.
The apt-get dist-upgrade could well be a bit of over-kill, but I'd  
rather it

spend a few moments working out all is well in the world than miss it out
and find out it is needed in certain circumstances :-)

What, with Yorvyk having a method to run lubuntu with RAID, this 'little,
low resource for older computers' version of the Ubuntu family is  
certainly living up to my saying that although it is a low resource  
version, it is in no way a crippled one.


My RAID array is made up of 6 1.74GB HDDs for a total of 7.6GB, plus a  
600MB HDD for boot and swap.  Hardly worth it really but a good use for  
half a dozen old drives I had lying about. Better than them ending up in  
landfill.





Regards,

Phill.
P.S. I'd just like to add that I do appreciate the small team cannot  
support

people doing such 'odd' things to lubuntu, but you can all congratulate
yourselves on making one heck of a release.








--
Steve (Yorvyk)
http://lubuntu.net

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[Lubuntu-desktop] 64-bit install?

2010-05-22 Thread Bob Trevithick
If I were to use the Ubuntu 64-bit Alternate CD, do just a command
line install, and then pull in the lubuntu-desktop package, would I
have a workable 64-bit Lubuntu?  It will be a few days before my AMD
system is up and running again, so I can't test this at the moment.

A related question would be if there is an official 64-bit version
planned?  All other *buntu versions have both 32- and 64-bit options,
so I would guess that would be an expectation of Canonical's for
inclusion?

Thanks, and regards,
Bob

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] 64-bit install?

2010-05-22 Thread Andrew Woodhead
Yes thats on way to get 64bit Lubuntu. You want a minimal amount of stuff
installing to then install the metapackage. Your networking will need to be
workable from command line too.

On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 1:19 PM, Bob Trevithick bob.trevith...@gmail.comwrote:

 If I were to use the Ubuntu 64-bit Alternate CD, do just a command
 line install, and then pull in the lubuntu-desktop package, would I
 have a workable 64-bit Lubuntu?  It will be a few days before my AMD
 system is up and running again, so I can't test this at the moment.

 A related question would be if there is an official 64-bit version
 planned?  All other *buntu versions have both 32- and 64-bit options,
 so I would guess that would be an expectation of Canonical's for
 inclusion?

 Thanks, and regards,
 Bob

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] 64-bit install?

2010-05-22 Thread Bob Trevithick
On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 9:34 AM, Andrew Woodhead
andrew.woodhead...@googlemail.com wrote:
 Yes thats on way to get 64bit Lubuntu. You want a minimal amount of stuff
 installing to then install the metapackage. Your networking will need to be
 workable from command line too.

Thanks.  Will this testing benefit the project, or would it be best to
wait until you actually do a 64-bit version (if you do)?

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] 64-bit install?

2010-05-22 Thread Andrew Woodhead
Well if you want it now then the minimal ubuntu install is the way to go to
get 64bit Lubuntu. Depends if you can wait or not :)

On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 2:40 PM, Bob Trevithick bob.trevith...@gmail.comwrote:

 On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 9:34 AM, Andrew Woodhead
 andrew.woodhead...@googlemail.com wrote:
  Yes thats on way to get 64bit Lubuntu. You want a minimal amount of stuff
  installing to then install the metapackage. Your networking will need to
 be
  workable from command line too.

 Thanks.  Will this testing benefit the project, or would it be best to
 wait until you actually do a 64-bit version (if you do)?

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] 64-bit install?

2010-05-22 Thread Phillip Whiteside
Hi Bob,

if you could try using the instructions at
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/DocumentationHelp#Minimal%20Install  Just go
get the 64 bit instead of 32 bit mini-iso from
http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/lucid/main/installer-amd64/current/images/netboot/
I'd be grateful if you could reply back with how you get on, I have been
asked a couple of times about such a method but not had anyone say yes it
does work (or no, it does not).

Regards,

Phill.

On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 2:40 PM, Bob Trevithick bob.trevith...@gmail.comwrote:

 On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 9:34 AM, Andrew Woodhead
 andrew.woodhead...@googlemail.com wrote:
  Yes thats on way to get 64bit Lubuntu. You want a minimal amount of stuff
  installing to then install the metapackage. Your networking will need to
 be
  workable from command line too.

 Thanks.  Will this testing benefit the project, or would it be best to
 wait until you actually do a 64-bit version (if you do)?

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] 64-bit install?

2010-05-22 Thread Bob Trevithick
Hi Phill,

I'll be happy to just as soon as I get the 64-bit machine running
again. :)  I hope that's within a week or so.

Bob

On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 10:15 AM, Phillip Whiteside phi...@phillw.net wrote:
 Hi Bob,

 if you could try using the instructions at
 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/DocumentationHelp#Minimal%20Install  Just go
 get the 64 bit instead of 32 bit mini-iso from
 http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/lucid/main/installer-amd64/current/images/netboot/
 I'd be grateful if you could reply back with how you get on, I have been
 asked a couple of times about such a method but not had anyone say yes it
 does work (or no, it does not).

 Regards,

 Phill.

 On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 2:40 PM, Bob Trevithick bob.trevith...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 9:34 AM, Andrew Woodhead
 andrew.woodhead...@googlemail.com wrote:
  Yes thats on way to get 64bit Lubuntu. You want a minimal amount of
  stuff
  installing to then install the metapackage. Your networking will need to
  be
  workable from command line too.

 Thanks.  Will this testing benefit the project, or would it be best to
 wait until you actually do a 64-bit version (if you do)?

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