Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Proposed changes to lubuntu-desktop

[Chow Loong Jin]

On 09/06/2011 12:34, Jonathan Marsden wrote:
> Why?  What is the value of being able to "still keep lubuntu-desktop"?

Because new packages being added to lubuntu-desktop will be pulled in when it is
upgraded. If you remote lubuntu-desktop, you won't get any of the new additions.
And it can be hard to track down what you want and what you don't want manually.

-- 
Kind regards,
Loong Jin



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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Proposed changes to lubuntu-desktop

[Jonathan Marsden]

On 06/08/2011 08:01 AM, Markus Brummer wrote:

> For 2), you can now remove "useless" programs and install
> alternatives, and still keep lubuntu-desktop installed (I currently
> use lubuntu-core and install what I need on top of that).

Why?  What is the value of being able to "still keep lubuntu-desktop"?

The only benefit of changing the depends to recommends is that it avoids
the questions from people who do not realize that removing the
lubuntu-desktop metapackage is 100% safe -- your machine will not
suddenly stop running Lubuntu if you remove that metapackage :)

Can you please explain why are you avoiding using lubuntu-desktop, just
because you want to customize your package set afterwards?  You simply
use lubuntu-desktop, and go ahead and customize your package set,
removing lubuntu-desktop when so prompted.  No harm results.

Incidentally, at the moment, making that change from depends to
recommends could break the Lubuntu ISO build script, since it installs
lubuntu-desktop using --no-install-recommends, by design.  See line 81 of


http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop/+junk/lubuntu-tools/view/head:/iso/lubuntu-build.sh

This was changed experimentally in the recent Oneiric Alpha1 release,
and one result was that all language packs etc. had to be dropped to
make extra space on the CD image to make room for what was pulled in :)

That script and build process is becoming obsolete anyway, so this
information is probably (hopefully!) of only historical value... but
until that really happens, your proposed change to lubuntu-desktop would
have considerably greater consequences than you seem to realize.

Jonathan

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Proposed changes to lubuntu-desktop

[Chris]

Thanks for all the replies in gedit. I've currently got no machine to test
these things, that's why it was only a proposal. I'll install it myself when
I need to use it.

With metta,

Chris Druif
On Jun 8, 2011 8:03 PM, "Jean-Pierre Vidal Piesset" 
wrote:
> Gedit -1, way too slow on my old machines. (P3 and below)
>
> --
> jpxsat
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Proposed changes to lubuntu-desktop

[Jean-Pierre Vidal Piesset]

Gedit -1, way too slow on my old machines. (P3 and below)

--
jpxsat
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Proposed changes to lubuntu-desktop

[Markus Brummer]

Hi,

I'd like to clarify my point, why dropping depencies to recommends is a 
DRAW/WIN/WIN. There are three groups of people:

1) "I like lubuntu / lubuntu-desktop the way it is, please don't tinker around"
2) "I want another program for my needs than what lubuntu-desktop is proposing"
3) "I'm low on resources, so please keep lubuntu as light as possible"

For 1), dropping depencies to recommends doesn't change the normal 
installation: all packages marked as recommends are installed unless specified 
otherwise.

For 2), you can now remove "useless" programs and install alternatives, and 
still keep lubuntu-desktop installed (I currently use lubuntu-core and install 
what I need on top of that).

For 3), you can use command line installation and "--without-recommends" when 
installing lubuntu-desktop.

I will gladly bury the hatchet of midori and other proposed changes to default 
applications.

-Markus

On Wed, 8 Jun 2011 16:45:26 +0200
Leszek Lesner  wrote:

> Am Mittwoch 08 Juni 2011, 15:23:56 schrieb 神癒礁湖 "(Rafael Laguna)":
> > It's slow for me too. Even in Gnome, when using two or three plugins
> > it's annoying. Another option could be Scribes. It's a bit strange, but
> > it has syntax highlighting and doesn't have too much dependencies. But I
> > don't know if its development status.
> 
> 
> I have good experience with geany. Its has good syntax hightlighting and many 
> options more, like integrated terminal support and showing functions, 
> procedures and classes in a source tree.
> 
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-- 
Markus Brummer 

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Proposed changes to lubuntu-desktop

[Leszek Lesner]

Am Mittwoch 08 Juni 2011, 15:23:56 schrieb 神癒礁湖 "(Rafael Laguna)":
> It's slow for me too. Even in Gnome, when using two or three plugins
> it's annoying. Another option could be Scribes. It's a bit strange, but
> it has syntax highlighting and doesn't have too much dependencies. But I
> don't know if its development status.


I have good experience with geany. Its has good syntax hightlighting and many 
options more, like integrated terminal support and showing functions, 
procedures and classes in a source tree.

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Proposed changes to lubuntu-desktop

[(Rafael Laguna)]

It's slow for me too. Even in Gnome, when using two or three plugins
it's annoying. Another option could be Scribes. It's a bit strange, but
it has syntax highlighting and doesn't have too much dependencies. But I
don't know if its development status.

-- 

Go to rafaellaguna.com

Go to Lubuntu.net





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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Proposed changes to lubuntu-desktop

[PCMan]

GEdit is miserably slow even on my new laptop. I would say GEdit -1.

On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 8:28 AM, Chris  wrote:

> Aloha oukou,
>
> I've got one suggestion for replacement, which is to replace leafpad with
> gedit. Note bloated in any way and handy syntax highlighting to boon.
>
> With metta,
>
> Chris Druif
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 01:13, Phill Whiteside  wrote:
>
>> Hiyas Boss,
>>
>> Me thinks now would be a good time to decide these items. Setting up a
>> vote, followed by a meeting may be a good idea?
>>
>> We have
>>
>>- June 14th : End of proposal for applications by default
>>
>> Followed by
>>
>>
>>- June 19th : Decision for the modifications of default applications
>>
>> @ ALL
>>
>> Yes, I know everyone who proposes their favourite application that is not
>> installed by default feels sore, hopefully in Lubuntu we are not that petty
>> as to leave because of it.
>>
>> Any application can be added from the repositories, some of the 'weird'
>> stuff people do to Lubuntu is a testament to just how rock solid it is.
>>
>> The old, and so far, not replaced rule is that a proposed application may
>> not...
>>
>> 1) Use any hard disk space up
>> 2) Use any CPU time when running
>> 3) Use any RAM when running.
>>
>> Whilst we may laugh at such rules, they are what make Lubuntu able to do
>> what it does on our minimal spec. For those with lots of Hard Disk space and
>> RAM and really high CPU's - Great. Lubuntu is lean, mean, keen and green.
>> BUT we are going to remain within our "Pentium II or Celeron system with
>> 128 MiB of RAM"
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Phill.
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 10:21 PM, Lance  wrote:
>>
>>> "I say stick with what we've got and lets get Lubuntu twiddled and
>>> polished.
>>>
>>> "Remember when suggesting applications that the target is a couple of
>>> hundred MHz CPU and 128 MiB of RAM."
>>>
>>> Indeed, let's remain focused on keeping Lubuntu light. We also need to
>>> consider how many changes are already in the works ;^)
>>>
>>> I doubt the change to GTK+ 3 will be without numerous challenges, as will
>>> be transition to becoming a full-fledged Ubuntu release. No easy time for
>>> the limited number of devs.
>>>
>>> But, regarding software in particular this may come into play, from the
>>> ToDo (more than bite size) list:
>>>
>>> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Developers/TODO
>>>
>>> "Software-center : Work on a new minimal interface to see if it's
>>> possible to switch to SC: TODO "
>>>
>>> It may be possible that an appropriate version of SC could solve most of
>>> these problems. Maybe we could install even less and then let people decide
>>> what fits their needs and hardware best.
>>>
>>> But ATM we need to give the devs room to adjust to the changes at hand.
>>>
>>>
>>> --- On *Tue, 6/7/11, Yorvyk * wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Yorvyk 
>>> Subject: Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Proposed changes to lubuntu-desktop
>>> To: lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net
>>> Date: Tuesday, June 7, 2011, 2:19 PM
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, 7 Jun 2011 13:06:28 -0400
>>> Jean-Pierre Vidal Piesset 
>>> http://mc/compose?to=jpx...@gmail.com>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > >From a very-humble user point of view:
>>> >
>>> > I use Libre Office + Gnumeric (Abiword can't convince me). As i read
>>> > recently, Libre Office is getting performance improvements, but the
>>> problem
>>> > is still the ram consumption vs the ram used by abiword (i use LO for
>>> writer
>>> > and slideshows, but gnumeric is a magnificient tool), LO is an option?
>>> It
>>> > could bring a slideshow editor to Lubuntu... Let individually decide
>>> but my
>>> > guess is that Lubuntu should remain with abiword & gnumeric for the
>>> concept.
>>> > Midori: in many ways it could be best than chromium, but as PCMAN said,
>>> it's
>>> > not stable at all .
>>> Try running Libre/open Office on a 160 MIB, 300MHz machine and I think
>>> you'll find it just becomes unpleasant.  Abiword does everything I need of a
>>> word processor, and I install it on Ubuntu as Libre/Open Office is j

Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Proposed changes to lubuntu-desktop

[Chris]

Aloha oukou,

I've got one suggestion for replacement, which is to replace leafpad with
gedit. Note bloated in any way and handy syntax highlighting to boon.

With metta,

Chris Druif


On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 01:13, Phill Whiteside  wrote:

> Hiyas Boss,
>
> Me thinks now would be a good time to decide these items. Setting up a
> vote, followed by a meeting may be a good idea?
>
> We have
>
>- June 14th : End of proposal for applications by default
>
> Followed by
>
>
>- June 19th : Decision for the modifications of default applications
>
> @ ALL
>
> Yes, I know everyone who proposes their favourite application that is not
> installed by default feels sore, hopefully in Lubuntu we are not that petty
> as to leave because of it.
>
> Any application can be added from the repositories, some of the 'weird'
> stuff people do to Lubuntu is a testament to just how rock solid it is.
>
> The old, and so far, not replaced rule is that a proposed application may
> not...
>
> 1) Use any hard disk space up
> 2) Use any CPU time when running
> 3) Use any RAM when running.
>
> Whilst we may laugh at such rules, they are what make Lubuntu able to do
> what it does on our minimal spec. For those with lots of Hard Disk space and
> RAM and really high CPU's - Great. Lubuntu is lean, mean, keen and green.
> BUT we are going to remain within our "Pentium II or Celeron system with
> 128 MiB of RAM"
>
> Regards,
>
> Phill.
>
> On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 10:21 PM, Lance  wrote:
>
>> "I say stick with what we've got and lets get Lubuntu twiddled and
>> polished.
>>
>> "Remember when suggesting applications that the target is a couple of
>> hundred MHz CPU and 128 MiB of RAM."
>>
>> Indeed, let's remain focused on keeping Lubuntu light. We also need to
>> consider how many changes are already in the works ;^)
>>
>> I doubt the change to GTK+ 3 will be without numerous challenges, as will
>> be transition to becoming a full-fledged Ubuntu release. No easy time for
>> the limited number of devs.
>>
>> But, regarding software in particular this may come into play, from the
>> ToDo (more than bite size) list:
>>
>> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Developers/TODO
>>
>> "Software-center : Work on a new minimal interface to see if it's possible
>> to switch to SC: TODO "
>>
>> It may be possible that an appropriate version of SC could solve most of
>> these problems. Maybe we could install even less and then let people decide
>> what fits their needs and hardware best.
>>
>> But ATM we need to give the devs room to adjust to the changes at hand.
>>
>>
>> --- On *Tue, 6/7/11, Yorvyk * wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: Yorvyk 
>> Subject: Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Proposed changes to lubuntu-desktop
>> To: lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net
>> Date: Tuesday, June 7, 2011, 2:19 PM
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 7 Jun 2011 13:06:28 -0400
>> Jean-Pierre Vidal Piesset 
>> http://mc/compose?to=jpx...@gmail.com>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > >From a very-humble user point of view:
>> >
>> > I use Libre Office + Gnumeric (Abiword can't convince me). As i read
>> > recently, Libre Office is getting performance improvements, but the
>> problem
>> > is still the ram consumption vs the ram used by abiword (i use LO for
>> writer
>> > and slideshows, but gnumeric is a magnificient tool), LO is an option?
>> It
>> > could bring a slideshow editor to Lubuntu... Let individually decide but
>> my
>> > guess is that Lubuntu should remain with abiword & gnumeric for the
>> concept.
>> > Midori: in many ways it could be best than chromium, but as PCMAN said,
>> it's
>> > not stable at all .
>> Try running Libre/open Office on a 160 MIB, 300MHz machine and I think
>> you'll find it just becomes unpleasant.  Abiword does everything I need of a
>> word processor, and I install it on Ubuntu as Libre/Open Office is just
>> cumbersome.
>> As somebody who has had to sit through endless 'slide show' presentations
>> I believe it may be one of the worst uses for a computer ever.
>> I have Midori on one machine and keep trying it. It seems to take two
>> steps forward then one back.  It has a way to go before it is a real
>> alternative to FF or Chromium, sadly.
>>
>> > Games: ace of penguins is faster than anything, but they're not "cool"
>> at
>> > all. Everybody i've shown this says something like

Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Proposed changes to lubuntu-desktop

[Lance]

Generally speaking, packages like "lubuntu-desktop" or "ubuntu-desktop" are 
meta-packages:

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MetaPackages

It's generally OK to remove a meta-package but you must know what you're doing 
to some degree. For instance I could remove 'lxterminal' but if I did so prior 
to installing another terminal I'd be pretty well up a creek w/o a paddle.

Aysiu from Ubuntu forums created a guide here:

http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/index

If you look at the "Playing Around" section you'll get a good general idea what 
I'm talking about.

--- On Tue, 6/7/11, Todd Carnes  wrote:

From: Todd Carnes 
Subject: Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Proposed changes to lubuntu-desktop
To: lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net
Date: Tuesday, June 7, 2011, 6:08 PM

On Tue, 7 Jun 2011 08:15:16 -0400
Tim Bernhard  wrote:

> The only thing I don't like is the games.  (Is there an easy way for me to
> remove the games all at once??  I never really looked into it.)

I wanted to remove them (as well as Abiword & Gnumeric), but when I tell 
Synaptic to get rid of them, it says that it must remove lubuntu-desktop as 
well. So, not wanting to destroy an otherwise great system, I cancel out of it.

It does irk me though that lubuntu presumes to know better than I what is 
needed on my system and threatens to self-destruct if I don't do as it says.
-- 
Todd Carnes 

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Proposed changes to lubuntu-desktop

[Phill Whiteside]

Hiyas Boss,

Me thinks now would be a good time to decide these items. Setting up a vote,
followed by a meeting may be a good idea?

We have

   - June 14th : End of proposal for applications by default

Followed by


   - June 19th : Decision for the modifications of default applications

@ ALL

Yes, I know everyone who proposes their favourite application that is not
installed by default feels sore, hopefully in Lubuntu we are not that petty
as to leave because of it.

Any application can be added from the repositories, some of the 'weird'
stuff people do to Lubuntu is a testament to just how rock solid it is.

The old, and so far, not replaced rule is that a proposed application may
not...

1) Use any hard disk space up
2) Use any CPU time when running
3) Use any RAM when running.

Whilst we may laugh at such rules, they are what make Lubuntu able to do
what it does on our minimal spec. For those with lots of Hard Disk space and
RAM and really high CPU's - Great. Lubuntu is lean, mean, keen and green.
BUT we are going to remain within our "Pentium II or Celeron system with 128
MiB of RAM"

Regards,

Phill.

On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 10:21 PM, Lance  wrote:

> "I say stick with what we've got and lets get Lubuntu twiddled and
> polished.
>
> "Remember when suggesting applications that the target is a couple of
> hundred MHz CPU and 128 MiB of RAM."
>
> Indeed, let's remain focused on keeping Lubuntu light. We also need to
> consider how many changes are already in the works ;^)
>
> I doubt the change to GTK+ 3 will be without numerous challenges, as will
> be transition to becoming a full-fledged Ubuntu release. No easy time for
> the limited number of devs.
>
> But, regarding software in particular this may come into play, from the
> ToDo (more than bite size) list:
>
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Developers/TODO
>
> "Software-center : Work on a new minimal interface to see if it's possible
> to switch to SC: TODO "
>
> It may be possible that an appropriate version of SC could solve most of
> these problems. Maybe we could install even less and then let people decide
> what fits their needs and hardware best.
>
> But ATM we need to give the devs room to adjust to the changes at hand.
>
>
> --- On *Tue, 6/7/11, Yorvyk * wrote:
>
>
> From: Yorvyk 
> Subject: Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Proposed changes to lubuntu-desktop
> To: lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net
> Date: Tuesday, June 7, 2011, 2:19 PM
>
>
> On Tue, 7 Jun 2011 13:06:28 -0400
> Jean-Pierre Vidal Piesset 
> http://mc/compose?to=jpx...@gmail.com>>
> wrote:
>
> > >From a very-humble user point of view:
> >
> > I use Libre Office + Gnumeric (Abiword can't convince me). As i read
> > recently, Libre Office is getting performance improvements, but the
> problem
> > is still the ram consumption vs the ram used by abiword (i use LO for
> writer
> > and slideshows, but gnumeric is a magnificient tool), LO is an option? It
> > could bring a slideshow editor to Lubuntu... Let individually decide but
> my
> > guess is that Lubuntu should remain with abiword & gnumeric for the
> concept.
> > Midori: in many ways it could be best than chromium, but as PCMAN said,
> it's
> > not stable at all .
> Try running Libre/open Office on a 160 MIB, 300MHz machine and I think
> you'll find it just becomes unpleasant.  Abiword does everything I need of a
> word processor, and I install it on Ubuntu as Libre/Open Office is just
> cumbersome.
> As somebody who has had to sit through endless 'slide show' presentations I
> believe it may be one of the worst uses for a computer ever.
> I have Midori on one machine and keep trying it. It seems to take two steps
> forward then one back.  It has a way to go before it is a real alternative
> to FF or Chromium, sadly.
>
> > Games: ace of penguins is faster than anything, but they're not "cool" at
> > all. Everybody i've shown this says something like "looks ugly, how can i
> > configure it?". There's nothing better around?
> Ace of Penquins is probably best described as functional ;) but, who needs
> 'looks' in card games anyway?  There is however a set of icons being
> produced, slowly, for it. \o/
>
> > PDF viewers: i'm with Rafael on this, Evince is the best choice there is
> > (besides, it can read a lot of formats, not only pdf ;)
> Evince does appear to be the most functional of PDF reader on Linux.
>
> >
> > xscreensaver makes my installations crash on every old computer i own, i
> > already said this on the mailing list: it's heavy and it consumes energy
> > displaying

Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Proposed changes to lubuntu-desktop

[Todd Carnes]

On Tue, 7 Jun 2011 08:15:16 -0400
Tim Bernhard  wrote:

> The only thing I don't like is the games.  (Is there an easy way for me to
> remove the games all at once??  I never really looked into it.)

I wanted to remove them (as well as Abiword & Gnumeric), but when I tell 
Synaptic to get rid of them, it says that it must remove lubuntu-desktop as 
well. So, not wanting to destroy an otherwise great system, I cancel out of it.

It does irk me though that lubuntu presumes to know better than I what is 
needed on my system and threatens to self-destruct if I don't do as it says.
-- 
Todd Carnes 

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Proposed changes to lubuntu-desktop

[Lance]

"I say stick with what we've got and lets get Lubuntu twiddled and polished.

"Remember when suggesting applications that the target is a couple of hundred 
MHz CPU and 128 MiB of RAM."

Indeed, let's remain focused on keeping Lubuntu light. We also need to consider 
how many changes are already in the works ;^)

I doubt the change to GTK+ 3 will be without numerous challenges, as will be 
transition to becoming a full-fledged Ubuntu release. No easy time for the 
limited number of devs.

But, regarding software in particular this may come into play, from the ToDo 
(more than bite size) list:

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Developers/TODO

"Software-center : Work on a new minimal interface to see if it's possible to 
switch to SC: TODO "

It may be possible that an appropriate version of SC could solve most of these 
problems. Maybe we could install even less and then let people decide what fits 
their needs and hardware best.

But ATM we need to give the devs room to adjust to the changes at hand.


--- On Tue, 6/7/11, Yorvyk  wrote:

From: Yorvyk 
Subject: Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Proposed changes to lubuntu-desktop
To: lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net
Date: Tuesday, June 7, 2011, 2:19 PM

On Tue, 7 Jun 2011 13:06:28 -0400
Jean-Pierre Vidal Piesset  wrote:

> >From a very-humble user point of view:
> 
> I use Libre Office + Gnumeric (Abiword can't convince me). As i read
> recently, Libre Office is getting performance improvements, but the problem
> is still the ram consumption vs the ram used by abiword (i use LO for writer
> and slideshows, but gnumeric is a magnificient tool), LO is an option? It
> could bring a slideshow editor to Lubuntu... Let individually decide but my
> guess is that Lubuntu should remain with abiword & gnumeric for the concept.
> Midori: in many ways it could be best than chromium, but as PCMAN said, it's
> not stable at all .
Try running Libre/open Office on a 160 MIB, 300MHz machine and I think you'll 
find it just becomes unpleasant.  Abiword does everything I need of a word 
processor, and I install it on Ubuntu as Libre/Open Office is just cumbersome.
As somebody who has had to sit through endless 'slide show' presentations I 
believe it may be one of the worst uses for a computer ever.
I have Midori on one machine and keep trying it. It seems to take two steps 
forward then one back.  It has a way to go before it is a real alternative to 
FF or Chromium, sadly.

> Games: ace of penguins is faster than anything, but they're not "cool" at
> all. Everybody i've shown this says something like "looks ugly, how can i
> configure it?". There's nothing better around?
Ace of Penquins is probably best described as functional ;) but, who needs 
'looks' in card games anyway?  There is however a set of icons being produced, 
slowly, for it. \o/

> PDF viewers: i'm with Rafael on this, Evince is the best choice there is
> (besides, it can read a lot of formats, not only pdf ;)
Evince does appear to be the most functional of PDF reader on Linux.

> 
> xscreensaver makes my installations crash on every old computer i own, i
> already said this on the mailing list: it's heavy and it consumes energy
> displaying something fancy on the screen instead of just a black screen or
> turn it off (clearly i don't like it...); but it locks the screen, so it's
> necessary.
I have nothing nice to say about screen-savers so will say nothing.

>
> xchat as i know is on discussion as i read recently... Pidgin would be the
> option.
I hate Pidgin and will install XChat if it isn't installed by default.

I say stick with what we've got and lets get Lubuntu twiddled and polished.

Remember when suggesting applications that the target is a couple of hundred 
MHz CPU and 128 MiB of RAM.

-- 
Steve Cook (Yorvyk)

http://lubuntu.net 

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Proposed changes to lubuntu-desktop

[Yorvyk]

On Tue, 7 Jun 2011 13:06:28 -0400
Jean-Pierre Vidal Piesset  wrote:

> >From a very-humble user point of view:
> 
> I use Libre Office + Gnumeric (Abiword can't convince me). As i read
> recently, Libre Office is getting performance improvements, but the problem
> is still the ram consumption vs the ram used by abiword (i use LO for writer
> and slideshows, but gnumeric is a magnificient tool), LO is an option? It
> could bring a slideshow editor to Lubuntu... Let individually decide but my
> guess is that Lubuntu should remain with abiword & gnumeric for the concept.
> Midori: in many ways it could be best than chromium, but as PCMAN said, it's
> not stable at all .
Try running Libre/open Office on a 160 MIB, 300MHz machine and I think you'll 
find it just becomes unpleasant.  Abiword does everything I need of a word 
processor, and I install it on Ubuntu as Libre/Open Office is just cumbersome.
As somebody who has had to sit through endless 'slide show' presentations I 
believe it may be one of the worst uses for a computer ever.
I have Midori on one machine and keep trying it. It seems to take two steps 
forward then one back.  It has a way to go before it is a real alternative to 
FF or Chromium, sadly.

> Games: ace of penguins is faster than anything, but they're not "cool" at
> all. Everybody i've shown this says something like "looks ugly, how can i
> configure it?". There's nothing better around?
Ace of Penquins is probably best described as functional ;) but, who needs 
'looks' in card games anyway?  There is however a set of icons being produced, 
slowly, for it. \o/

> PDF viewers: i'm with Rafael on this, Evince is the best choice there is
> (besides, it can read a lot of formats, not only pdf ;)
Evince does appear to be the most functional of PDF reader on Linux.

> 
> xscreensaver makes my installations crash on every old computer i own, i
> already said this on the mailing list: it's heavy and it consumes energy
> displaying something fancy on the screen instead of just a black screen or
> turn it off (clearly i don't like it...); but it locks the screen, so it's
> necessary.
I have nothing nice to say about screen-savers so will say nothing.

>
> xchat as i know is on discussion as i read recently... Pidgin would be the
> option.
I hate Pidgin and will install XChat if it isn't installed by default.

I say stick with what we've got and lets get Lubuntu twiddled and polished.

Remember when suggesting applications that the target is a couple of hundred 
MHz CPU and 128 MiB of RAM.

-- 
Steve Cook (Yorvyk)

http://lubuntu.net 

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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Proposed changes to lubuntu-desktop

[James Gifford]

2. Correct. My mistake.
Cheers,
James Gifford
http://jamesrgifford.com



On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 11:14 PM, PCMan  wrote:
> 1. Lubuntu is lightweght + "good usability". Sometimes usability
> should outweigh memory usage if the lighter alternatives are not as
> usable, xpdf for example. Midori is not stable enough. In addition,
> browser is the most critical part of a desktop system and is one of
> the largest security hole. A famous browser with large user base can
> have instant security fixes and more complete testing. So practically
> I don't think there should be any real lighter alternatives.
>
> 2. LibreOffice is not Java-based. Java AFAIK is an optional dependency.
>
> On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 10:02 AM, James Gifford  
> wrote:
>> Just my two cents here - libreoffice is Java based, so (in my
>> experience anyway) it probably isn't lighter-weight.
>>
>> You mentioned Midori. In my experience, Midori isn't good for the
>> average user, and some sites (namely, gmail) refuse to work with it at
>> all.
>>
>> Just my two cents, take it for what it's worth. :)
>>
>> --James Gifford
>> http://jamesrgifford.com
>>
>> On Jun 6, 2011, at 21:57, Markus Brummer  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I'd like to propose some changes to the lubuntu-desktop package. This is 
>>> primarily meant to the developers, but other users may be interested.
>>>
>>> The point of Lubuntu & LXDE is to make a very lightweight desktop to end 
>>> users. This proposal would 1) make many of the dependencies as recommends 
>>> and 2) add lighter / better alternatives. This would in the end make the 
>>> installation more flexible. Inspiration for this came from the 
>>> xubuntu-desktop package.
>>>
>>> The following recommendations are packages that aren't necessary for the 
>>> overall usability of Lubuntu: on a normal installation, all packages marked 
>>> as recommended are installed.
>>>
>>> Package list (dep > rec):
>>>
>>> abiword / libreoffice-writer
>>> ace-of-penguins
>>> audacious
>>> chromium-browser / midori
>>> evince / mupdf / xpdf
>>> file-roller / xarchiver
>>> gnome-disk-utility
>>> gnumeric / libreoffice-calc
>>> lxtask
>>> mobile-broadband-provider-info
>>> modemmanager
>>> mtpaint
>>> sylpheed
>>> transmission
>>> xchat
>>> xscreensaver
>>>
>>> -Markus
>>>
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>>
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Proposed changes to lubuntu-desktop

[Julien Lavergne]

Le Tuesday 07 June 2011 à 04:56 +0300, Markus Brummer a écrit :
> The following recommendations are packages that aren't necessary for
> the 
> overall usability of Lubuntu: on a normal installation, all packages 
> marked as recommended are installed. 
Having all packages depending on lubuntu-desktop is currently a
limitation of our way to generate ISO. I expect to fix this for 11.10.
In the meantime, you can use lubuntu-core, which only install essential
packages for Lubuntu.

Other suggested programs should be discussed case by case, and some have
been already discussed recently (PDF viewer, archives).

Regards,
Julien Lavergne


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Proposed changes to lubuntu-desktop

[Julien Lavergne]

Le Tuesday 07 June 2011 à 09:14 -0400, Tim Bernhard a écrit :
> I understand that it's a "standard" to have games, but the ones we
> have look worse than anything I've seen since DOS days!  I think they
> sort of bring the overall feel of the distro down, but I'm guessing
> they are really lightweight.  I don't really care one way or the other
> so whatever works for you guys if fine by me.  I really like the way
> everything else looks and functions and I never play the games
> anyway. 
If you have any suggestions, feel free to propose them :)

Regards,
Julien Lavergne


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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Proposed changes to lubuntu-desktop

[Jean-Pierre Vidal Piesset]

>From a very-humble user point of view:

I use Libre Office + Gnumeric (Abiword can't convince me). As i read
recently, Libre Office is getting performance improvements, but the problem
is still the ram consumption vs the ram used by abiword (i use LO for writer
and slideshows, but gnumeric is a magnificient tool), LO is an option? It
could bring a slideshow editor to Lubuntu... Let individually decide but my
guess is that Lubuntu should remain with abiword & gnumeric for the concept.
Midori: in many ways it could be best than chromium, but as PCMAN said, it's
not stable at all .
Games: ace of penguins is faster than anything, but they're not "cool" at
all. Everybody i've shown this says something like "looks ugly, how can i
configure it?". There's nothing better around?
PDF viewers: i'm with Rafael on this, Evince is the best choice there is
(besides, it can read a lot of formats, not only pdf ;)

xscreensaver makes my installations crash on every old computer i own, i
already said this on the mailing list: it's heavy and it consumes energy
displaying something fancy on the screen instead of just a black screen or
turn it off (clearly i don't like it...); but it locks the screen, so it's
necessary.
xchat as i know is on discussion as i read recently... Pidgin would be the
option.

That's "my" two cents :)


2011/6/7 Tim Bernhard 

> I understand that it's a "standard" to have games, but the ones we have
> look worse than anything I've seen since DOS days!  I think they sort of
> bring the overall feel of the distro down, but I'm guessing  they are really
> lightweight.  I don't really care one way or the other so whatever works for
> you guys if fine by me.  I really like the way everything else looks and
> functions and I never play the games anyway.
>
>
> 2011/6/7 神癒礁湖 (Rafael Laguna) 
>
>>  Well, it was a long discussion about this last time. I don't play at all,
>> but I must admit that theye're needed. Every distributon has a few games, at
>> least a Solitaire or something like that (kinda office spending time [image:
>> :D] ). Maybe we need to talk about changing them, choosing another
>> meta-package or individual ones.
>>
>>
>> The included applications poll started. Again.
>>
>>
>>   --
>>
>>   [image: Go to rafaellaguna.com]    
>> [image:
>> Go to Lubuntu.net] 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Proposed changes to lubuntu-desktop

[Tim Bernhard]

I understand that it's a "standard" to have games, but the ones we have look
worse than anything I've seen since DOS days!  I think they sort of bring
the overall feel of the distro down, but I'm guessing  they are really
lightweight.  I don't really care one way or the other so whatever works for
you guys if fine by me.  I really like the way everything else looks and
functions and I never play the games anyway.


2011/6/7 神癒礁湖 (Rafael Laguna) 

>  Well, it was a long discussion about this last time. I don't play at all,
> but I must admit that theye're needed. Every distributon has a few games, at
> least a Solitaire or something like that (kinda office spending time [image:
> :D] ). Maybe we need to talk about changing them, choosing another
> meta-package or individual ones.
>
> The included applications poll started. Again.
>
>
>   --
>
>   [image: Go to rafaellaguna.com]    
> [image:
> Go to Lubuntu.net] 
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Proposed changes to lubuntu-desktop

[(Rafael Laguna)]

Well, it was a long discussion about this last time. I don't play at
all, but I must admit that theye're needed. Every distributon has a few
games, at least a Solitaire or something like that (kinda office
spending time :D ). Maybe we need to talk about changing them, choosing
another meta-package or individual ones.

The included applications poll started. Again.

-- 

Go to rafaellaguna.com

Go to Lubuntu.net





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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Proposed changes to lubuntu-desktop

[Tim Bernhard]

2011/6/7 神癒礁湖 (Rafael Laguna) 

> ...
>

> I think the actual selection of Lubuntu's included software is near
> perfection. Balanced between size and resource needs, as well as opensource
> enough to ensure a long term support for developers.
>
>   --
>
>   [image: Go to rafaellaguna.com]    
> [image:
> Go to Lubuntu.net] 
>

As an end user, I'm satisfied with the included software.  Users can always
add specific software that suits their needs.

The only thing I don't like is the games.  (Is there an easy way for me to
remove the games all at once??  I never really looked into it.)

Tim
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Proposed changes to lubuntu-desktop

[(Rafael Laguna)]

I've tested every PDF reader and Evince is the only one that does not
distort truetype edges. The respective developments for MuPDF and XPdf
are "a bit paused" and, as PCMan said, usability increases due to the
user popularity, so it's easy making changes. Evince isn't as resource
hungry as we can expect, and its dependencies are small.

I'd like to remember all graphickers, photographers and people who use
compliant PDFs that the libraries used by xPDF and others are
deprecated. Evince uses a new version of Poppler already tested, now
used by Okular and ePDFViewer (who was candidate for a release of
Lubuntu and rejected due to rendering reasons).

I think the actual selection of Lubuntu's included software is near
perfection. Balanced between size and resource needs, as well as
opensource enough to ensure a long term support for developers.

-- 

Go to rafaellaguna.com

Go to Lubuntu.net





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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Proposed changes to lubuntu-desktop

[PCMan]

1. Lubuntu is lightweght + "good usability". Sometimes usability
should outweigh memory usage if the lighter alternatives are not as
usable, xpdf for example. Midori is not stable enough. In addition,
browser is the most critical part of a desktop system and is one of
the largest security hole. A famous browser with large user base can
have instant security fixes and more complete testing. So practically
I don't think there should be any real lighter alternatives.

2. LibreOffice is not Java-based. Java AFAIK is an optional dependency.

On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 10:02 AM, James Gifford  wrote:
> Just my two cents here - libreoffice is Java based, so (in my
> experience anyway) it probably isn't lighter-weight.
>
> You mentioned Midori. In my experience, Midori isn't good for the
> average user, and some sites (namely, gmail) refuse to work with it at
> all.
>
> Just my two cents, take it for what it's worth. :)
>
> --James Gifford
> http://jamesrgifford.com
>
> On Jun 6, 2011, at 21:57, Markus Brummer  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'd like to propose some changes to the lubuntu-desktop package. This is 
>> primarily meant to the developers, but other users may be interested.
>>
>> The point of Lubuntu & LXDE is to make a very lightweight desktop to end 
>> users. This proposal would 1) make many of the dependencies as recommends 
>> and 2) add lighter / better alternatives. This would in the end make the 
>> installation more flexible. Inspiration for this came from the 
>> xubuntu-desktop package.
>>
>> The following recommendations are packages that aren't necessary for the 
>> overall usability of Lubuntu: on a normal installation, all packages marked 
>> as recommended are installed.
>>
>> Package list (dep > rec):
>>
>> abiword / libreoffice-writer
>> ace-of-penguins
>> audacious
>> chromium-browser / midori
>> evince / mupdf / xpdf
>> file-roller / xarchiver
>> gnome-disk-utility
>> gnumeric / libreoffice-calc
>> lxtask
>> mobile-broadband-provider-info
>> modemmanager
>> mtpaint
>> sylpheed
>> transmission
>> xchat
>> xscreensaver
>>
>> -Markus
>>
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Re: [Lubuntu-desktop] Proposed changes to lubuntu-desktop

[James Gifford]

Just my two cents here - libreoffice is Java based, so (in my
experience anyway) it probably isn't lighter-weight.

You mentioned Midori. In my experience, Midori isn't good for the
average user, and some sites (namely, gmail) refuse to work with it at
all.

Just my two cents, take it for what it's worth. :)

--James Gifford
http://jamesrgifford.com

On Jun 6, 2011, at 21:57, Markus Brummer  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'd like to propose some changes to the lubuntu-desktop package. This is 
> primarily meant to the developers, but other users may be interested.
>
> The point of Lubuntu & LXDE is to make a very lightweight desktop to end 
> users. This proposal would 1) make many of the dependencies as recommends and 
> 2) add lighter / better alternatives. This would in the end make the 
> installation more flexible. Inspiration for this came from the 
> xubuntu-desktop package.
>
> The following recommendations are packages that aren't necessary for the 
> overall usability of Lubuntu: on a normal installation, all packages marked 
> as recommended are installed.
>
> Package list (dep > rec):
>
> abiword / libreoffice-writer
> ace-of-penguins
> audacious
> chromium-browser / midori
> evince / mupdf / xpdf
> file-roller / xarchiver
> gnome-disk-utility
> gnumeric / libreoffice-calc
> lxtask
> mobile-broadband-provider-info
> modemmanager
> mtpaint
> sylpheed
> transmission
> xchat
> xscreensaver
>
> -Markus
>
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[Lubuntu-desktop] Proposed changes to lubuntu-desktop

[Markus Brummer]

Hi,

I'd like to propose some changes to the lubuntu-desktop package. This is 
primarily meant to the developers, but other users may be interested.


The point of Lubuntu & LXDE is to make a very lightweight desktop to end 
users. This proposal would 1) make many of the dependencies as 
recommends and 2) add lighter / better alternatives. This would in the 
end make the installation more flexible. Inspiration for this came from 
the xubuntu-desktop package.


The following recommendations are packages that aren't necessary for the 
overall usability of Lubuntu: on a normal installation, all packages 
marked as recommended are installed.


Package list (dep > rec):

abiword / libreoffice-writer
ace-of-penguins
audacious
chromium-browser / midori
evince / mupdf / xpdf
file-roller / xarchiver
gnome-disk-utility
gnumeric / libreoffice-calc
lxtask
mobile-broadband-provider-info
modemmanager
mtpaint
sylpheed
transmission
xchat
xscreensaver

-Markus

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