Re: Complete copy of the 6-course vihuela by Belchior Dias
Just a small notice: in future I shall not respond to mail by Roman Turovsky that, in my opinion, is uninteresting or offers little or no contribution to our knowledge. My apologies for hogging the list. With best wishes for everyone, Antonio _ Do You Yahoo!? Información de Estados Unidos y América Latina, en Yahoo! Noticias. Visítanos en http://noticias.espanol.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: vihuela vs guitar
Again, just opinions, nothing worthwhile to respond to. --- Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > > >>> Not a bad idea altogether. Batov renames his > >>> instrument a five-course viguela/vihuela/biguela > >> (and > >>> there are further variations on the spelling), > and > >>> makes it as a five course instrument and we can > >> all > >>> get on with our lives; Roman as well. > >> Not quite. BIGUELA UNIVERSAL as opposed to > >> ORDINARIA. Any number of courses > >> he sees fit, as he is a practitioner rather than > a > >> methodologist. > >> RT > > > Go ahead, be practical and create your own > categories, > > as long as you don´t pretend they are based on > > historical fact there is no objection. > > AC > Why? Mainstream scholars of history do it all the > time, with relative > impunity. > RT > > __ > Roman M. Turovsky > http://polyhymnion.org/swv > > > _ Do You Yahoo!? Información de Estados Unidos y América Latina, en Yahoo! Noticias. Visítanos en http://noticias.espanol.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Complete copy of the 6-course vihuela by Belchior Dias
Since these are but mere opinions they were dismissed as lacking interest. --- Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > >>> I accept the E.0748 as a six-course vihuela; I > >> accept > >>> the Dias instrument for what it may be: either a > >>> five-course guitar or a five course-vihuela, > both > >>> options can be defended. I prefer (and stress > >>> "prefer") to consider it a guitar taking into > >> account > >>> the historical and musical context at the time > it > >> was > >>> made. > >> claim. > >> This all boils down to partisan defense of > friends, > >> rather than intellectual > >> evenhandedness. It's perfectly acceptable, and > I'm > >> not immune to this > >> myself. > >> RT > >> > > > > > > Being aware that an attack ad hominem is the last > Ad capram > > > resource when there are no academic arguments to > > defend a case, I thank you for this tacit > admission. > You are welcome. However the remark referred to YOUR > double-standard. > > > > Now, if you are prepared to back the opinion you > state > > with adequate evidence, > Evidence is interpretable, usually in several ways. > > > > I will be only to happy to > > continue the discussion. Otherwise you are welcome > to > > proclaim your personal opinions to whomsoever will > be > > willing to listen; I shall not be interested. > > > > With best regards, > > Antonio > Diversify your life, Antonio. Limiting your stock > options is, well, > limiting > RT > > _ Do You Yahoo!? Información de Estados Unidos y América Latina, en Yahoo! Noticias. Visítanos en http://noticias.espanol.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Complete copy of the 6-course vihuela by Belchior Dias
>>> I accept the E.0748 as a six-course vihuela; I >> accept >>> the Dias instrument for what it may be: either a >>> five-course guitar or a five course-vihuela, both >>> options can be defended. I prefer (and stress >>> "prefer") to consider it a guitar taking into >> account >>> the historical and musical context at the time it >> was >>> made. >> claim. >> This all boils down to partisan defense of friends, >> rather than intellectual >> evenhandedness. It's perfectly acceptable, and I'm >> not immune to this >> myself. >> RT >> > > > Being aware that an attack ad hominem is the last Ad capram > resource when there are no academic arguments to > defend a case, I thank you for this tacit admission. You are welcome. However the remark referred to YOUR double-standard. > Now, if you are prepared to back the opinion you state > with adequate evidence, Evidence is interpretable, usually in several ways. > I will be only to happy to > continue the discussion. Otherwise you are welcome to > proclaim your personal opinions to whomsoever will be > willing to listen; I shall not be interested. > > With best regards, > Antonio Diversify your life, Antonio. Limiting your stock options is, well, limiting RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: vihuela vs guitar
>>> Not a bad idea altogether. Batov renames his >>> instrument a five-course viguela/vihuela/biguela >> (and >>> there are further variations on the spelling), and >>> makes it as a five course instrument and we can >> all >>> get on with our lives; Roman as well. >> Not quite. BIGUELA UNIVERSAL as opposed to >> ORDINARIA. Any number of courses >> he sees fit, as he is a practitioner rather than a >> methodologist. >> RT > Go ahead, be practical and create your own categories, > as long as you don´t pretend they are based on > historical fact there is no objection. > AC Why? Mainstream scholars of history do it all the time, with relative impunity. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: vihuela/guitar
>>> Are you sure about this c,e,g,c,e,g tuning in Bermudo? >>> >>> I certainly haven't read the original but, years ago, when I was researching >>> into the guittar, I never found that tuning (nor transposed) before the 18th >>> century. I remember finding references (e.g. in Bermudo) to tunings close to >>> it, but never that tuning itself. >>> >>> The usual story of the Portuguese guitarra is that it was an adaptation of >>> the English guitar (itself an adaptation of an earlier German instrument). >> But nothing is what is seems to be.. >> RT > Some fado sites have an account of the origins of the guitarra. E.g.: > http://www.cidadevirtual.pt/fadocoimbra/ing/iguitar.html > pointing to its English guitar origins - same overall structure and tuning > (when publications appear in the 1790s) and lots of ingleza¹ pieces in the > repertoire. > > But also to a more ethereal, rhetorical background in an actual or imagined > ancient past. But it¹s not the past of vihuelas, or even guitars. It¹s the > instrument¹s > citternliness that is emphasised. Which is not necessarily true either. The QUITRA is the most ancient Mediterranian lute, predating Moors, but peoples' collective memories may be shorter than we thinks they are. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Vihuela/guitar
> Yes, I am absolutely sure, because Antonio gives the tuning > c,e,g,c',e',g' in the article I mentioned. I am sure he would have > corrected me, if I had got it wrong. It certainly is an unusual > tuning, and I would like to know more about its use in the 16th > century, assuming there is more to be known. > > As I understand it, mediaeval stringed instruments were tuned in > 4ths and 5ths, because their temperament favoured these intervals at > the expense of the major 3rd, which was too wide to be nice to > listen to. Early in the 15th century people moved away from > well-tuned 4ths and 5ths in favour of well-tuned major 3rds. > Meantone temperament replaced Pythagorean. This meant that stringed Unless this meant ET of some sort. RT > instruments started to be tuned with the interval of a major 3rd as > well as 4ths and 5ths. As far as I know, 16th-century stringed > instruments - lute, viol, viola da mano, guitar, vihuela, etc. - > typically involved 4ths (and sometimes 5ths) with just one major > 3rd. The C major tuning mentioned by Bermudo is the only one I can > think of with more than one major 3rd. > > Best wishes, > > Stewart. > > > - Original Message - > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Monica Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 8:28 PM > Subject: Re: vihuela/guitar > > >> >> >>> Most intriguing is one of Bermudo's guitar tunings: c, e, g, > c', e', g'; he writes, "This is a good tuning for a _guitarra grande_ > strung with 6 courses, like a Vihuela, or for a _discante_." > (translated from Bermudo, f. ciiiv). This tuning is, of course, the same > as the tuning of the wire-strung English guitar, popular in England > more than 200 years later than Bermudo. I wonder if there is any connection between the two, and if so, how the Portuguese > instrument fits in? >>> >>> Good question! Hovering at the back of my mind for some time > is the >>> question - is the instrument Bermudo refers to as "guitarra" > really a >>> guitar? Could it actually be a mandola/mandora? Or a vandola > which = >>> pops up >>> again in the 18th century? Bermudo also includes chapters on > the >>> bandurria - a lute type instrument which also pop up again in > the 18th >>> century. >>> >> Stewart, >> >> Are you sure about this c,e,g,c,e,g tuning in Bermudo? >> >> I certainly haven't read the original but, years ago, when I was > researching into the guittar, I never found that tuning (nor > transposed) before the 18th century. I remember finding references > (e.g. in Bermudo) to tunings close to it, but never that tuning > itself. >> >> The usual story of the Portuguese guitarra is that it was an > adaptation of the English guitar (itself an adaptation of an earlier > German instrument). > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Vihuela/guitar
Dear Stuart, Yes, I am absolutely sure, because Antonio gives the tuning c,e,g,c',e',g' in the article I mentioned. I am sure he would have corrected me, if I had got it wrong. It certainly is an unusual tuning, and I would like to know more about its use in the 16th century, assuming there is more to be known. As I understand it, mediaeval stringed instruments were tuned in 4ths and 5ths, because their temperament favoured these intervals at the expense of the major 3rd, which was too wide to be nice to listen to. Early in the 15th century people moved away from well-tuned 4ths and 5ths in favour of well-tuned major 3rds. Meantone temperament replaced Pythagorean. This meant that stringed instruments started to be tuned with the interval of a major 3rd as well as 4ths and 5ths. As far as I know, 16th-century stringed instruments - lute, viol, viola da mano, guitar, vihuela, etc. - typically involved 4ths (and sometimes 5ths) with just one major 3rd. The C major tuning mentioned by Bermudo is the only one I can think of with more than one major 3rd. Best wishes, Stewart. - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Monica Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 8:28 PM Subject: Re: vihuela/guitar > > > > > > > Most intriguing is one of Bermudo's guitar tunings: c, e, g, c', e', > > > g'; he writes, "This is a good tuning for a _guitarra grande_ strung > > > with 6 courses, like a Vihuela, or for a _discante_." (translated > > > from Bermudo, f. ciiiv). This tuning is, of course, the same as the > > > tuning of the wire-strung English guitar, popular in England more > > > than 200 years later than Bermudo. I wonder if there is any > > > connection between the two, and if so, how the Portuguese instrument > > > fits in? > > > > Good question! Hovering at the back of my mind for some time is the > > question - is the instrument Bermudo refers to as "guitarra" really a > > guitar? Could it actually be a mandola/mandora? Or a vandola which = > > pops up > > again in the 18th century? Bermudo also includes chapters on the > > bandurria - a lute type instrument which also pop up again in the 18th > > century. > > > Stewart, > > Are you sure about this c,e,g,c,e,g tuning in Bermudo? > > I certainly haven't read the original but, years ago, when I was researching into the guittar, I never found that tuning (nor transposed) before the 18th century. I remember finding references (e.g. in Bermudo) to tunings close to it, but never that tuning itself. > > The usual story of the Portuguese guitarra is that it was an adaptation of the English guitar (itself an adaptation of an earlier German instrument). To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Re: vihuela/guitar
re > > Stewart, > > > > Are you sure about this c,e,g,c,e,g tuning in Bermudo? > > > > I certainly haven't read the original but, years ago, when I was researching > > into the guittar, I never found that tuning (nor transposed) before the 18th > > century. I remember finding references (e.g. in Bermudo) to tunings close to > > it, but never that tuning itself. > > > > The usual story of the Portuguese guitarra is that it was an adaptation of > > the English guitar (itself an adaptation of an earlier German instrument). > But nothing is what is seems to be.. > RT Some fado sites have an account of the origins of the guitarra. E.g.: http://www.cidadevirtual.pt/fadocoimbra/ing/iguitar.html pointing to its English guitar origins - same overall structure and tuning (when publications appear in the 1790s) and lots of ingleza pieces in the repertoire. But also to a more ethereal, rhetorical background in an actual or imagined ancient past. But its not the past of vihuelas, or even guitars. Its the instruments citternliness that is emphasised. - Email provided by http://www.ntlhome.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: vihuela/guitar
>>> Most intriguing is one of Bermudo's guitar tunings: c, e, g, c', e', >>> g'; he writes, "This is a good tuning for a _guitarra grande_ strung >>> with 6 courses, like a Vihuela, or for a _discante_." (translated >>> from Bermudo, f. ciiiv). This tuning is, of course, the same as the >>> tuning of the wire-strung English guitar, popular in England more >>> than 200 years later than Bermudo. I wonder if there is any >>> connection between the two, and if so, how the Portuguese instrument >>> fits in? >> >> Good question! Hovering at the back of my mind for some time is the >> question - is the instrument Bermudo refers to as "guitarra" really a >> guitar? Could it actually be a mandola/mandora? Or a vandola which = >> pops up >> again in the 18th century? Bermudo also includes chapters on the >> bandurria - a lute type instrument which also pop up again in the 18th >> century. >> > Stewart, > > Are you sure about this c,e,g,c,e,g tuning in Bermudo? > > I certainly haven't read the original but, years ago, when I was researching > into the guittar, I never found that tuning (nor transposed) before the 18th > century. I remember finding references (e.g. in Bermudo) to tunings close to > it, but never that tuning itself. > > The usual story of the Portuguese guitarra is that it was an adaptation of > the English guitar (itself an adaptation of an earlier German instrument). But nothing is what is seems to be.. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: vihuela/guitar
> > > Most intriguing is one of Bermudo's guitar tunings: c, e, g, c', e', > > g'; he writes, "This is a good tuning for a _guitarra grande_ strung > > with 6 courses, like a Vihuela, or for a _discante_." (translated > > from Bermudo, f. ciiiv). This tuning is, of course, the same as the > > tuning of the wire-strung English guitar, popular in England more > > than 200 years later than Bermudo. I wonder if there is any > > connection between the two, and if so, how the Portuguese instrument > > fits in? > > Good question! Hovering at the back of my mind for some time is the > question - is the instrument Bermudo refers to as "guitarra" really a > guitar? Could it actually be a mandola/mandora? Or a vandola which = > pops up > again in the 18th century? Bermudo also includes chapters on the > bandurria - a lute type instrument which also pop up again in the 18th > century. > Stewart, Are you sure about this c,e,g,c,e,g tuning in Bermudo? I certainly haven't read the original but, years ago, when I was researching into the guittar, I never found that tuning (nor transposed) before the 18th century. I remember finding references (e.g. in Bermudo) to tunings close to it, but never that tuning itself. The usual story of the Portuguese guitarra is that it was an adaptation of the English guitar (itself an adaptation of an earlier German instrument). - Email provided by http://www.ntlhome.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Complete copy of the 6-course vihuela by Belchior Dias
> --- Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribi??> > --- bill kilpatrick > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> escribi??> whatever alexander batov calls his >> beautifully made instrument is fine with me - i call it >> desireable. >>> >>> >>> So it may be, bill, so it may be. As long as he >> does >>> not claim he is following historical criteria for >>> designing and making it. That put the discussion >> in a >>> totally different perspective. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Antonio >> The best vihuelas I have heard are by Cezar Mateus. >> They are entirely >> original in design, which is fine: there are no >> criteria for any vihuela >> design, except for Cit?e la Musique and Diaz. Both >> are intermittently >> disputed. >> RT > > > I have an excellent vihuela by Lourdes Uncilla, of > original design as well. What distinguishes the work > of both these luthiers from the case in question? > Neither claims to be reproducing a historical model. But neither do they emphasize that their designs are unhistorical. BTW, does your vihuela have those infamous black lines (fake barring) on the inside? RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Complete copy of the 6-course vihuela by Belchior Dias
I certainly wiil --- Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > Suit yourself > RT > > Since none of the questions posed below have been > > answered, I shall consider that they have been > evaded > > from lack of an adequate response. > > --- Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > escribi??> > If the comparison is > > apposite and germane to the > >>> discussion, now please tell us about the > >> similarities > >>> regarding this vihuela and guitar case. > >> This is lame. > >> If you actually compare a vihuela case against a > >> guitar case: you might get > >> a bit perplexed. > >>> Mainly the > >>> fact that, while coexisting, were regarded as > >> separate > >>> instruments in their own time. And about > specific > >>> instances where their identity is confused. > >> These specific instances seem to be pervasive. > >> > >> > >>> A further > >>> word about the approach to reconstructing a > >> succulent > >>> 11/13 course lute based on a historical mealy > >> 8-course > >>> mandora would not be amiss. > >> There is a 13-course gallichon in Budapest that > >> occupies a position similar > >> to Diaz. Some think it is a lute, some don't. > >> RT > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > _ Do You Yahoo!? Información de Estados Unidos y América Latina, en Yahoo! Noticias. Visítanos en http://noticias.espanol.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: vihuela vs guitar
--- Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > > --- Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > escribi??> >>> 16th century five- > > and six-course instruments > >> were > > called "vihuelas"; four-course instruments > were > called > > "guitars". During the late 1570s and early > 1580s > >> a > > "new" instrument was developed: the > five-course > > instrument we call "baroque guitar", which was > called > > "guitarra espa??". > But didn't this appellido come from outside of > >> the > country, while locals had > biguela? > >> A proposed solution: Batov renames his instrument > a > >> BIGUELA rather than > >> vihuela, so Antonio could get on with his life. > As > >> we say in Russian "wolves > >> sated and sheep intact". > >> RT > >> __ > >> Roman M. Turovsky > >> http://polyhymnion.org/swv > > > > > > Not a bad idea altogether. Batov renames his > > instrument a five-course viguela/vihuela/biguela > (and > > there are further variations on the spelling), and > > makes it as a five course instrument and we can > all > > get on with our lives; Roman as well. > Not quite. BIGUELA UNIVERSAL as opposed to > ORDINARIA. Any number of courses > he sees fit, as he is a practitioner rather than a > methodologist. > RT > Go ahead, be practical and create your own categories, as long as you don´t pretend they are based on historical fact there is no objection. _ Do You Yahoo!? Información de Estados Unidos y América Latina, en Yahoo! Noticias. Visítanos en http://noticias.espanol.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Complete copy of the 6-course vihuela by Belchior Dias
--- Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > > --- Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > escribi??> > I am questioning a > > rather dubious methodological > >>> approach, and I have stated my reasons for > >> considering > >>> it as such. If that reminds you of MO's atacks, > it > >> is > >>> your privilege to believe so. > >> If you accept E.7 as a vihuela there is no > >> reason not to accept Diaz. > > > > > > I accept the E.0748 as a six-course vihuela; I > accept > > the Dias instrument for what it may be: either a > > five-course guitar or a five course-vihuela, both > > options can be defended. I prefer (and stress > > "prefer") to consider it a guitar taking into > account > > the historical and musical context at the time it > was > > made. If you prefer to consider it a five-course > > vihuela I would have no qualms about that. What I > find > > objectionable is to assert that it was a > six-course > > vihuela without adequate support to back such a > claim. > This all boils down to partisan defense of friends, > rather than intellectual > evenhandedness. It's perfectly acceptable, and I'm > not immune to this > myself. > RT > Being aware that an attack ad hominem is the last resource when there are no academic arguments to defend a case, I thank you for this tacit admission. Now, if you are prepared to back the opinion you state with adequate evidence, I will be only to happy to continue the discussion. Otherwise you are welcome to proclaim your personal opinions to whomsoever will be willing to listen; I shall not be interested. With best regards, Antonio _ Do You Yahoo!? Información de Estados Unidos y América Latina, en Yahoo! Noticias. Visítanos en http://noticias.espanol.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Complete copy of the 6-course vihuela by Belchior Dias
Suit yourself RT > Since none of the questions posed below have been > answered, I shall consider that they have been evaded > from lack of an adequate response. > --- Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribi??> > If the comparison is > apposite and germane to the >>> discussion, now please tell us about the >> similarities >>> regarding this vihuela and guitar case. >> This is lame. >> If you actually compare a vihuela case against a >> guitar case: you might get >> a bit perplexed. >>> Mainly the >>> fact that, while coexisting, were regarded as >> separate >>> instruments in their own time. And about specific >>> instances where their identity is confused. >> These specific instances seem to be pervasive. >> >> >>> A further >>> word about the approach to reconstructing a >> succulent >>> 11/13 course lute based on a historical mealy >> 8-course >>> mandora would not be amiss. >> There is a 13-course gallichon in Budapest that >> occupies a position similar >> to Diaz. Some think it is a lute, some don't. >> RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Complete copy of the 6-course vihuela by Belchior Dias
Since none of the questions posed below have been answered, I shall consider that they have been evaded from lack of an adequate response. --- Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > > If the comparison is apposite and germane to the > > discussion, now please tell us about the > similarities > > regarding this vihuela and guitar case. > This is lame. > If you actually compare a vihuela case against a > guitar case: you might get > a bit perplexed. > > > > Mainly the > > fact that, while coexisting, were regarded as > separate > > instruments in their own time. And about specific > > instances where their identity is confused. > These specific instances seem to be pervasive. > > > > A further > > word about the approach to reconstructing a > succulent > > 11/13 course lute based on a historical mealy > 8-course > > mandora would not be amiss. > There is a 13-course gallichon in Budapest that > occupies a position similar > to Diaz. Some think it is a lute, some don't. > RT > > _ Do You Yahoo!? Información de Estados Unidos y América Latina, en Yahoo! Noticias. Visítanos en http://noticias.espanol.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: vihuela vs guitar
> --- Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribi??> >>> 16th century five- > and six-course instruments >> were > called "vihuelas"; four-course instruments were called > "guitars". During the late 1570s and early 1580s >> a > "new" instrument was developed: the five-course > instrument we call "baroque guitar", which was called > "guitarra espa??". But didn't this appellido come from outside of >> the country, while locals had biguela? >> A proposed solution: Batov renames his instrument a >> BIGUELA rather than >> vihuela, so Antonio could get on with his life. As >> we say in Russian "wolves >> sated and sheep intact". >> RT >> __ >> Roman M. Turovsky >> http://polyhymnion.org/swv > > > Not a bad idea altogether. Batov renames his > instrument a five-course viguela/vihuela/biguela (and > there are further variations on the spelling), and > makes it as a five course instrument and we can all > get on with our lives; Roman as well. Not quite. BIGUELA UNIVERSAL as opposed to ORDINARIA. Any number of courses he sees fit, as he is a practitioner rather than a methodologist. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Complete copy of the 6-course vihuela by Belchior Dias
--- Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > > --- bill kilpatrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > escribi??> whatever alexander batov calls his > beautifully made > >> instrument is fine with me - i call it > desireable. > >> > > > > > > So it may be, bill, so it may be. As long as he > does > > not claim he is following historical criteria for > > designing and making it. That put the discussion > in a > > totally different perspective. > > > > Regards, > > Antonio > The best vihuelas I have heard are by Cezar Mateus. > They are entirely > original in design, which is fine: there are no > criteria for any vihuela > design, except for Cité de la Musique and Diaz. Both > are intermittently > disputed. > RT I have an excellent vihuela by Lourdes Uncilla, of original design as well. What distinguishes the work of both these luthiers from the case in question? Neither claims to be reproducing a historical model. _ Do You Yahoo!? Información de Estados Unidos y América Latina, en Yahoo! Noticias. Visítanos en http://noticias.espanol.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: vihuela vs guitar
--- Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > >>> 16th century five- and six-course instruments > were > >>> called "vihuelas"; four-course instruments were > >> called > >>> "guitars". During the late 1570s and early 1580s > a > >>> "new" instrument was developed: the five-course > >>> instrument we call "baroque guitar", which was > >> called > >>> "guitarra espa??". > >> But didn't this appellido come from outside of > the > >> country, while locals had > >> biguela? > A proposed solution: Batov renames his instrument a > BIGUELA rather than > vihuela, so Antonio could get on with his life. As > we say in Russian "wolves > sated and sheep intact". > RT > __ > Roman M. Turovsky > http://polyhymnion.org/swv Not a bad idea altogether. Batov renames his instrument a five-course viguela/vihuela/biguela (and there are further variations on the spelling), and makes it as a five course instrument and we can all get on with our lives; Roman as well. _ Do You Yahoo!? Información de Estados Unidos y América Latina, en Yahoo! Noticias. Visítanos en http://noticias.espanol.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Complete copy of the 6-course vihuela by Belchior Dias
> re wolves and sheep - here in tuscany they say "in > bocca lupo" for good luck. could the russian sheep > you mention be satiated because of wolf chops? > > - bill Bravo Guglielmo, un'osservazione argutissima. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Complete copy of the 6-course vihuela by Belchior Dias
--- Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > > I am questioning a rather dubious methodological > > approach, and I have stated my reasons for > considering > > it as such. If that reminds you of MO's atacks, it > is > > your privilege to believe so. > If you accept E.7 as a vihuela there is no > reason not to accept Diaz. I accept the E.0748 as a six-course vihuela; I accept the Dias instrument for what it may be: either a five-course guitar or a five course-vihuela, both options can be defended. I prefer (and stress "prefer") to consider it a guitar taking into account the historical and musical context at the time it was made. If you prefer to consider it a five-course vihuela I would have no qualms about that. What I find objectionable is to assert that it was a six-course vihuela without adequate support to back such a claim. > As to endangering a > > livelihood, there is nothing to prevent Mr. Batov > from > > approching the reconstruction of vihuelas on more > > solid ground. > I haven't been convinced that there was any solid > ground in reconstruction > of the vihuela, besides the Jaquemart piece of > furniture. The only valid > methodology has been so far the empirical endeavors > of luthiers. All the luthiers who are now using the E.0748 as a model for their own instruments will be pleased to learn this. > > If you are impliying that the survival > > of Mr Batov depends on making instruments > following a > > mistaken approach, you must have a rather lowly > > opinion of him. > My lowly opinion of Mr.BAtov is actually very high, > rather than low. Then you should credit him with the ability to make other instruments and not make his livelihood depend on making this one in particular. > > > > By the way, which is my categoric statement? If > there > > are grounds to support it, I will certainly > confirm > > it, otherwise I will be pleased to apologiza. > > > > Still waiting _ Do You Yahoo!? Información de Estados Unidos y América Latina, en Yahoo! Noticias. Visítanos en http://noticias.espanol.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Complete copy of the 6-course vihuela by Belchior Dias
road kills are in keeping with an itinerant, medieval musician's source of construction material. call it street cred' ... or is it street crud ...? bet you can't wait to hear how i get on with my canjolin. re wolves and sheep - here in tuscany they say "in bocca lupo" for good luck. could the russian sheep you mention be satiated because of wolf chops? - bill --- Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > We know what you are driving at. I hope these are > desirable enough for YOU > to get something of the sort, without the aid of > South American roadkill. > RT > __ > Roman M. Turovsky > http://polyhymnion.org/swv > > > whatever alexander batov calls his beautifully > made > > instrument is fine with me - i call it desireable. > > > > you say potato > > i say potato > > let's call the hole thing spud > > > > rasgueado means never having to say you're > strumming - > > bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___ALL-NEW > Yahoo! > > Messenger - all new features - even more fun! > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > ___ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Complete copy of the 6-course vihuela by Belchior Dias
--- Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > >> We are comparing pink and yellow grapefruits, I'm > >> afraid. > > > > > > If such is the case please do tell us what are the > > lute's equivalents of vihuela and guitar. > A succulent 11/13-course vs. mealy 8-course mandora. If the comparison is apposite and germane to the discussion, now please tell us about the similarities regarding this vihuela and guitar case. Mainly the fact that, while coexisting, were regarded as separate instruments in their own time. And about specific instances where their identity is confused. A further word about the approach to reconstructing a succulent 11/13 course lute based on a historical mealy 8-course mandora would not be amiss. > > > > > Apples and > > pears still, i'm afraid, and still a deficient > > methodological aproach. A subjective perception > does > > not warrant considering it as a valid argument. > And you could claim objectivity for yourself? > RT I don't pretend to claim it, as all refection is influenced by certain subjective criteria. But I can claim to try and construct my own conclusions from known evidence and historical facts, and can produce the evidence to show how I arrived at those conclusions. And I still maintain that the comparison you propose is one of apples and pears and therefore not germane to the discussion. _ Do You Yahoo!? Información de Estados Unidos y América Latina, en Yahoo! Noticias. Visítanos en http://noticias.espanol.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Complete copy of the 6-course vihuela by Belchior Dias
> --- bill kilpatrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > escribi??> whatever alexander batov calls his beautifully made >> instrument is fine with me - i call it desireable. >> > > > So it may be, bill, so it may be. As long as he does > not claim he is following historical criteria for > designing and making it. That put the discussion in a > totally different perspective. > > Regards, > Antonio The best vihuelas I have heard are by Cezar Mateus. They are entirely original in design, which is fine: there are no criteria for any vihuela design, except for Cité de la Musique and Diaz. Both are intermittently disputed. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Complete copy of the 6-course vihuela by Belchior Dias
--- bill kilpatrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: > whatever alexander batov calls his beautifully made > instrument is fine with me - i call it desireable. > So it may be, bill, so it may be. As long as he does not claim he is following historical criteria for designing and making it. That put the discussion in a totally different perspective. Regards, Antonio _ Do You Yahoo!? Información de Estados Unidos y América Latina, en Yahoo! Noticias. Visítanos en http://noticias.espanol.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: vihuela vs guitar
>>> 16th century five- and six-course instruments were >>> called "vihuelas"; four-course instruments were >> called >>> "guitars". During the late 1570s and early 1580s a >>> "new" instrument was developed: the five-course >>> instrument we call "baroque guitar", which was >> called >>> "guitarra espa??". >> But didn't this appellido come from outside of the >> country, while locals had >> biguela? A proposed solution: Batov renames his instrument a BIGUELA rather than vihuela, so Antonio could get on with his life. As we say in Russian "wolves sated and sheep intact". RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Complete copy of the 6-course vihuela by Belchior Dias
> I am questioning a rather dubious methodological > approach, and I have stated my reasons for considering > it as such. If that reminds you of MO's atacks, it is > your privilege to believe so. If you accept E.7 as a vihuela there is no reason not to accept Diaz. As to endangering a > livelihood, there is nothing to prevent Mr. Batov from > approching the reconstruction of vihuelas on more > solid ground. I haven't been convinced that there was any solid ground in reconstruction of the vihuela, besides the Jaquemart piece of furniture. The only valid methodology has been so far the empirical endeavors of luthiers. > If you are impliying that the survival > of Mr Batov depends on making instruments following a > mistaken approach, you must have a rather lowly > opinion of him. My lowly opinion of Mr.BAtov is actually very high, rather than low. > > By the way, which is my categoric statement? If there > are grounds to support it, I will certainly confirm > it, otherwise I will be pleased to apologiza. > > > > --- Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribi??> >> E.0748, > being the most obvious), this particular murder left > behind a most enlightening iconographical trail. The differences between E.0748 and Diaz seem to >> be similar to the differences between Hoffmann and Edlinger, one >> being wider than the other, while no one questions luteness of Hoffmann >> because it is narrower. Besides, isn't Dugot of opinion that Diaz is a vihuela? RT >>> The case for the lute on the one hand, and for the >>> vihuela and guitar on the other are not similar. >> It is >> A matter of perception. >> >>> a rather deficient methodological approach to >> compare >>> oranges with apples. >> We are comparing pink and yellow grapefruits, I'm >> afraid. >> >> >>> And, no, Dugot has never made >>> such a categoric statement. >> But you did make a categoric one, while it is more >> customary among >> professional musicologists to use the noncommittal >> formula "this very well >> may/may not be so", especially considering that you >> are questioning the >> validity of Mr. Batov's efforts in a way that is >> reminiscent of MO's attack >> on Stephen Barber's E.0748 on the same grounds. >> If we give you a benefit of a doubt and agree that >> Diaz could be argued both >> ways, even that alone jeopardizes Batov's >> livelihood, and I don't like that. >> RT >> __ >> Roman M. Turovsky >> http://polyhymnion.org/swv >> >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > > _ > Do You Yahoo!? > Informaci??e Estados Unidos y Am?ca Latina, en Yahoo! Noticias. > Vis?nos en http://noticias.espanol.yahoo.com > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Fw: [luth-SFL] Tempérament
Temperament buffs might be interested in these links which appeared on the French list: - Original Message - From: "Bernard Azancot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 10:44 AM Subject: [luth-SFL] Tempérament Vu sur la liste de la LSA ces 3 adresses intéressantes: Le tempérament http://home.planet.nl/~d.v.ooijen/lgs/meantone.html Un accordeur http://homepage.mac.com/katsura/shareware.html#CHTN Un accordeur java (mais qui convient aussi très bien pour la Bourrée et la Gigue) http://www.zib.de/vgp/unheard/materialien/externeApplets/music_apps/ javatuner/acc.html Amicalement Bernard Liens Yahoo! Groupes <*> Pour consulter votre groupe en ligne, accédez à : http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/luth-SFL/ <*> Pour vous désincrire de ce groupe, envoyez un mail à : [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> L'utilisation de Yahoo! Groupes est soumise à l'acceptation des : http://fr.docs.yahoo.com/info/utos.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Complete copy of the 6-course vihuela by Belchior Dias
We know what you are driving at. I hope these are desirable enough for YOU to get something of the sort, without the aid of South American roadkill. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv > whatever alexander batov calls his beautifully made > instrument is fine with me - i call it desireable. > > you say potato > i say potato > let's call the hole thing spud > > rasgueado means never having to say you're strumming - > bill > > > > > > ___ALL-NEW Yahoo! > Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Complete copy of the 6-course vihuela by Belchior Dias
>> We are comparing pink and yellow grapefruits, I'm >> afraid. > > > If such is the case please do tell us what are the > lute's equivalents of vihuela and guitar. A succulent 11/13-course vs. mealy 8-course mandora. > Apples and > pears still, i'm afraid, and still a deficient > methodological aproach. A subjective perception does > not warrant considering it as a valid argument. And you could claim objectivity for yourself? RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Old religious paintings.
"Herbert Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > Given that lutenists' musical literature was contemporary with these paintings, > perhaps one > may ask here how a modern person can understand the esthetics which produced these > paintings. I shall make a cautious attempt. Please, note: not a sermon, but an attempted explanation of symbols. First, there is the creed that Christ died for our sins (i. e. for us, atoning for our sins) and was resurrected on the third day according to the Scriptures (1 Cor 15). Second, there were Gospels which spell out this creed in telling about the life of Christ (Gospels are not biographies but elaborated creeds). The Gospels according to Matthew and Luke in particular elaborate the creed as regards Christ's infancy: Even as a newborn child, Christ shared human condition (born *outside*) on his way to cause man's forthcoming redemption (Matthew has foreign, i. e. heathen, astrologers worshipping the Saviour, whereas Luke has the heavenly hosts singing of God's gracious choice to now send the Redeemer). That is why on old Europe's religious paintings that little child on Mary's arm isn't actually a sweet little stinky and harmless baby but Christ who delivers entire man from the curse of sin. -- Best wishes, Mathias Mathias Roesel, Grosze Annenstrasze 5, 28199 Bremen, Deutschland/ Germany, T/F +49 - 421 - 165 49 97, Fax +49 1805 060 334 480 67, E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] , [EMAIL PROTECTED] , [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Wanted: The City's Best" (Jeremiah 29:7) Ecumenical Stadtkirchentag of Bremen September 19-26! http://www.stadtkirchentag-bremen.de To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Complete copy of the 6-course vihuela by Belchior Dias
whatever alexander batov calls his beautifully made instrument is fine with me - i call it desireable. you say potato i say potato let's call the hole thing spud rasgueado means never having to say you're strumming - bill ___ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: italian church music online
On Sunday 19 September 2004 01:17, Candace Magner wrote: > Taco, I am very interested in this information! Could you copy to me the > article, or a link to the article? Which newspaper had the information (and > would it be online?). > > Thank you very much for bringing this to my attention! > Candace > It was in a dutch newspaper (NRC Handelsblad). Below is a translation of some parts. "After years of research and restorationwok the unique musical archive of the roman cathedral San Giovianni of the Laterans will be made available on the internet. 8000, mostly original, scores of famous and forgotten composers will be available THE COMING WEEKS (TW: i.e. it's not yet there!) free for downloading from www.paoloditarso.it. Amonst the scores in the archive of the basilique are Magnificat, stabat mater and other works by Pergolesi and music of all composers who served the pope between the 16th and 19th century. The project makes the religious and gregorian music available for research and musicians. In the end also the religious music from archives of other bisdoms will be available on internet. Projects starts in 150 churches in Piemonte, Toscany, Molise and Rome. .. Most of the original scores are written on parchment. In many cases restoration was necessary before digitizing. All music starts from 1546, the year when pope Paulus III started the musicchapel of the cathedral ." Taco Walstra To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
vihuela/guitar
> Most intriguing is one of Bermudo's guitar tunings: c, e, g, c', e', > g'; he writes, "This is a good tuning for a _guitarra grande_ strung > with 6 courses, like a Vihuela, or for a _discante_." (translated > from Bermudo, f. ciiiv). This tuning is, of course, the same as the > tuning of the wire-strung English guitar, popular in England more > than 200 years later than Bermudo. I wonder if there is any > connection between the two, and if so, how the Portuguese instrument > fits in? Good question! Hovering at the back of my mind for some time is the question - is the instrument Bermudo refers to as "guitarra" really a guitar? Could it actually be a mandola/mandora? Or a vandola which = pops up again in the 18th century? Bermudo also includes chapters on the bandurria - a lute type instrument which also pop up again in the 18th century. Another thought - how many courses did the vihuela have when it first appeared in the 15th century? 4, 5, 6? Perhaps it originally had 4 = (like the lute I think - correct me if I am wrong) ) and then went on to add courses; 4-course instruments continued to be played - because they are simpler and began to be called guitars to distinguish them from the 6-course instrument. Pure speculation of course! Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
