Re: Vio-print
Matt, thanks - you have just made my point. To coin a phrase: One man's dora' may be another man's lino. My introduction to the mandora came from the Ronn McFarlane Scot's Lute book. Most of his pieces are from the Straloch Lute Book (1627-29) and the Rowallen Lute Book (c. 1620). But there are others from the Skene Mandora Book (c. 1615). (And that latter he got as microfilm from LSA, who seems to call it Skine - I've looked it up as I want to get the original - but I'm not sure what I'd do with microfilm, so I await the librarian's answer). It gets more complicated, some of the mandora pieces he transcribes are in lute tuning, but most are in a tuning from the Skene Book, and the instrument is described as 5 courses. So perhaps I'm right, the name of the instrument is not necessarily the nature of the instrument. Names change over time and space (and as one moves from one language to another). The ukelele is a vihuela da mano, except that it isn't. The My Dog Has Fleas tuning is a guitar tuning with the 4th course up an octave. It is generally played as a strummed/chorded instrument. May I add that your obvious notion of what a mandora should be does not congrue with what it was in 18th century, namely 6c mandora (tuning: F-G-c-f-a-d', also G-A-d-g-b-e', with its 6th course retuning as required), aka calichone (bass tuning: C-D-G-c-e-a). Cf. Pietro OK, there is only one absolute for stringed instruments and that is the intervals between the open strings. The pitch may vary by the length (and within limits one's choice). All starting at the bass, the intervals. Using the pitches above your first 18th c. mandora (6 course); 1-4-4-3-4. Your second; 1-4-4-3-4. The calichone is 1-4-4-3-4. The 7 course lute is 1-4-4-3-4-4, and the guitar is 4-4-4-3-4. Do these numbers look similar? The mandora in the Skene Mandora Book (admittedly as interpreted by McFarlane, I haven't seen the original facsimile yet) has a tuning of 4-5-4-5. (Choosing d as the treble, as I have since that seems to be a comfortable level for the VL of 36cm., that gives me d, g, d', g', d, What can I say, nothing is absolute when it comes to naming. The Scot's mandora of the Skene Mandora Book may have been a borrowed name from the active cultural centers of Italy, a name lost in the wilderness of the north. I spent many years in NYC, I was born there and grew up in the culture. I'm probably the only one on this list who has ridden the subway for a nickel. I also spent many years living in the village (the green one, Greenwich Village is a redundancy as the wich means village in the early language). The point, never let the words define the substance. The music of intabulation can be played on any instrument that is tuned to the same intervals, but if one mandora has a different tuning than another the intabulation is useless - and the Skene Book apparently uses two different tunings. I rather like that 4-5-4-5 , it doesn't work well for three finger chords, but it is great for melody with an easy open chord. Which makes one wonder if the Skene Book was taking early instruments of the lute family and backtracking into the music. The fuller chordings of the guitar (and I'm convinced, but haven't tested, that the shift from the lute 4-4-3-4-4 to the guitar 4-4-4-3-4 is a matter of the chord fingering - moving from the historical melody instrument into the dual voice polyphony, and then to the vertical harmony). No one could have been more enamored of an easy fingering for the particular music than the real players. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Instrument Sounding
Correct--O'--Mundo, Oakland University it was. You sound like someone who was there. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: C Etter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 10:25 PM Subject: Re: Instrument Sounding on 12/28/04 1:39 PM, Vance Wood at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes!! In the 70's there was a very active early music program headed by Dr.Lyle Nordstrom. There were probably a dozen Lute students. Many concerts (part of the curriculum), Crum horns, Recorders, Sackbuts, Viola DaGambas, Citterns and even an Orpharion. Voice, Trios, Duets, Consort groups. It was a musical banquet for those into early music. Good heavens, sounds like Oakland U., N of Detroit?!? C. Etter To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re:Thomas Re: Elias
Hi Thomas, in the site i gave link there are a few german pieces (probably = you saw some). In the book however i've got only works by what they call 'trobadors' (trou= badours)--they=20 are from here--Occitania. Probably they have a german equivalent but its no= t covered in=20 this collection. However, about name you search, Ulrich von Liechtenstein, i found this site= (if you don't know it already) , it has no music but it has loads of his writings--in old German: http://www.fh-augsburg.de/~harsch/germanica/Chronologie/13Jh/Liechtenstein/= lie_intr.html also, huge list of others(with years) from the same site: http://www.fh-augsburg.de/~harsch/germanica/Autoren/d_alpha.html Hi Elias, here i send you a list of the composers that have more than ten s= ongs in the book: Raimon de Miraval Rimbaut de Vacair=E0s(7) Peirol P=E8ire Vidal Marcabrun(7) Giraud Riqui=E8r Gauselm Faudit Folquet de Marselha Bernard de Ventadorn Berenguer de Palou laters! R Hi, =20 Looks like an interesting book. I'm searching for such things, especially ArsNova/early renaissance-composers like Ciconia, Dufay, Dunstable, Landi= ni, Jacopo da Bologna, (they are all polyphonic though, mostly 3part) Cou= ld you give me an index of the authors? Which authors are having 10 or more songs in it? =20 Best, =20 Elias =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 -Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht- Von: rosinfiorini [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Mittwoch, 29. Dezember 2004 00:35 An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: Thomas-medievale s. =20 =20 Hello Thomas,=3D20 Here i have a huge book with virtually almost all known trobadors' works. It has more than fourty authors with their songs, and some have more=3D20 than twenty songs. The songs are presented in the notation of the time (13-14 hundreds) , pa= ra=3D llel with modern notation and text in the original ancient Occitan, German, En= gl=3D ish and Spanish. For each song there is also a system of letters that defines the Form. This is a system of greek letters, latin letters and numbers. Covered Forms in this collection are: =20 Laisse Laissenstrophe Retroencha Rondeau Virelai Balada Oda continua Can=3DE7on Can=3DE7on redonda Lai Estampida etc... If ever you think of some author or a song i can easilly scan it for you. Some of the songs are polyphonic, but not too often.. take care R -- =20 Faites un voeu et puis Voila ! www.voila.fr=3D20 =20 =20 -- =20 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html =20 =20 =20 -- Faites un voeu et puis Voila ! www.voila.fr=20 --
Re: Re:Jon
hi Jon, i tried several times to post this Re. to your message but it came up messed with things and numbers. a try one last time-for whatever it is worth-haha:) Whatever I can show on the sillyscope or prove as to the effects of spinning bodies or conical strings on the actual tone production there i= s only one instrument that can define music. The human ear, in my case it=92s more the Heart that defines music, but it=20 doesn=92t matter : big world, different ways Music is sound, a complex sound, yes. But still the alternate compressions and rarefactions of the sound (air) wave can only be heard as music by that ancient receiver. ..i feel differently about Music, I can hear music without=20 any physical vibrations in the air, can hear it, grasp it and put it on paper. Then it can appear as a alternate=20 sequence of variating air densities, but it was=20 already Music even before that.=20 The solely concern of =93creating alternate compressions in the air=94=97you can=92t be that =91Technical=92 to the core can you? There is more than the physical part to music=97it=92s Feeling. Feeling is=20 Intent. We are Humans--much more than machines. Machines can detect vocabulary and syntax commands,=20 mesure frequencies, classify in neat taxonomy categories, detect faults and missmatches etc, but=20 cannot be aware of Feeling. I (or millions others) can write a musical piece and Intend=20 you to feel a particular feeling, mood or even image from it. Without any =93syntax=94, no =93vocabulary=94. And if=20 my Intending has been impeccable, if I had enough personal power, energy and selflesness, then such a music can=20 move you to feel inexplicable joy, longing..: whatever=20 the feeling at hand is=97even from a sh-i-tt-y LoFi recording=20 that doesn't challenge even half of the humanly audable range=20 of sound frequencies.=20 The Vibratory Force-Intent, is ancient and mysterious, that=92s=20 why it=92s =91Old Age=92. It=92s everywhere and we can be friends=20 with it or command it. It starts by starting to examine your=20 true Intent for everything you do or say. Then you=92ll=20 discover that most of it is hooked on the =93Me=94, it=92s a=20 =91self-service=92 (mastur...). The =91Cult of ME=92 today=97we=20 can=92t even give a gift nowadays without contaminating=20 the whole thing with some issue of the =93Me=94 and its=20 endless worries for selfpresentation-lol. In =91New Age=92 there is no need to examine Intent: you=20 can just dress up in something, chant, and dance with=20 some =93godesses=94 in the forest (haha). A self presentation=20 circus where in the end you stay the same a s s =20 that you are (or even worse).=20 So they sharpen razor blades in pyramids? I haven't=20 heard of that but may-be they are simply pragmatic=20 people that use a phenomenon, not new-agers.=20 Did it ever occure to you that this phenomenon may=20 happen as a result of 'reversing time' effect in the pyramid (new age assid= e-lol)? The music of the spheres--John Keely's Solar System?=20 One thing is for sure---this world is more mysterious=20 and wonderous than we can ever dream of. To open=20 its wonders one need to explore honestly without=20 preconcieved judgements. There is one branch in=20 philosophy called phenomenology. There one is to=20 attempt to look at the world without priory. Epoche.=20 have a few problems with your like wow vocabulary, but I think I'm working my way through it (and enjoying it). Joy makes perfect:) like wow...haha--makes one think of the way =20 'Valley Girl's talk-they've got this lingo and one can be amazed at the number=20 of concepts they can communicate with 2-3 words. Unfortunately, they're not really=20 carried by genres that deal with abstractions or subtleties...like, yeah, whatever (lololol) -- Faites un voeu et puis Voila ! www.voila.fr=20 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re:Jon
Whatever I can show on the sillyscope or prove as to the effects of spinning bodies or conical strings on the actual tone production there is only one instrument that can define music. The human ear, in my case its more the Heart that defines music, but it doesnt matter : big world, different ways Music is sound, a complex sound, yes. But still the alternate compressions and rarefactions of the sound (air) wave can only be heard as music by that ancient receiver. ..i feel differently about Music, I can hear music without any physical vibrations in the air, can hear it, grasp it and put it on paper. Then it can appear as a alternate sequence of variating air densities, but it was already Music even before that. The solely concern of creating alternate compressions in the airyou cant be that Technical to the core can you? There is more than the physical part to musicits Feeling. Feeling is Intent. We are Humans--much more than machines. Machines can detect vocabulary and syntax commands, mesure frequencies, classify in neat taxonomy categories, detect faults and missmatches etc, but cannot be aware of Feeling. I (or millions others) can write a musical piece and Intend you to feel a particular feeling, mood or even image from it. Without any syntax, no vocabulary. And if my Intending has been impeccable, if I had enough personal power, energy and selflesness, then such a music can move you to feel inexplicable joy, longing..: whatever the feeling at hand iseven from a sh-i-tt-y LoFi recording that doesn't challenge even half of the humanly audable range of sound frequencies. The Vibratory Force-Intent, is ancient and mysterious, thats why its Old Age. Its everywhere and we can be friends with it or command it. It starts by starting to examine your true Intent for everything you do or say. Then youll discover that most of it is hooked on the Me, its a self-service (mastur...). The Cult of ME todaywe cant even give a gift nowadays without contaminating the whole thing with some issue of the Me and its endless worries for selfpresentation-lol. In New Age there is no need to examine Intent: you can just dress up in something, chant, and dance with some godesses in the forest (haha). A self presentation circus where in the end you stay the same a s s that you are (or even worse). So they sharpen razor blades in pyramids? I haven't heard of that but may-be they are simply pragmatic people that use a phenomenon, not new-agers. Did it ever occure to you that this phenomenon may happen as a result of 'reversing time' effect in the pyramid (new age asside-lol)? The music of the spheres--John Keely's Solar System? One thing is for sure---this world is more mysterious and wonderous than we can ever dream of. To open its wonders one need to explore honestly without preconcieved judgements. There is one branch in philosophy called phenomenology. There one is to attempt to look at the world without priory. Epoche. have a few problems with your like wow vocabulary, but I think I'm working my way through it (and enjoying it). Joy makes perfect:) like wow...haha--makes one think of the way 'Valley Girl's talk-they've got this lingo and one can be amazed at the number of concepts they can communicate with 2-3 words. Unfortunately, they're not really carried by genres that deal with abstractions or subtleties...like, yeah, whatever (lololol) _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Re:Jon
Carlos, I agree entirely - I misspoke. Music is defined within one's self. My intent was merely to describe the transmission process from an external source, and it was triggered by R's tongue in cheek speculation on conical strings. I should have said that the ear defines what we physically hear, not what we sense. A well educated ear may hear a two note open chord and feel the full sense of the chord. I fell into the trap of confusing the music with the sound, mea culpa, but understandable as I've been working on the technical aspects of the sounds of strings. As to Vibratory Force - Intent. That is above my pay grade. I am of a generation that hasn't given much attention to self examination, be it new Age or old Age. The 1956 book The Silent Generation was written by a Princeton professor based on interviews with my friends and classmates. They were all anonymous, but I could name them by the interviews - and they weren't really representative, as they talked about themselves. I think you characterized the new Agers quite well - and in the 70s they did claim to sharpen razor blades with mini pyramids (but to the best of my knowledge none of them tried to shave with them). I haven't the vaguest idea who John Keely is, nor what his Solar System is. The music of the spheres is a concept that I think dates back to the ancient Greeks, but if not then to the Middle Ages. A semi religious sense of the organization of the universe. But it has been too many years for me to remember the source of the phrase. I'm afraid I'm an inveterate materialist (in the sense of the physical universe, not in the sense of personal possessions). I see no invisible forces influencing us (excepting the confirmed statistical effect of the full moon on police reports, and the physical effect on the tides). I am interested in vibrating String Theory (both that of musical strings and the 13 dimensional galactic sized strings that are being proposed as a basis of modern astrophysics). But I'm only investigating the musical strings. Oh what a boring man I must be, I am not in contact with any Force. Nor do I introspect as to my Intent. I just like to play and hear music (much of it internal), watch a bird fly and wish I could do it, shape a piece of wood into something beautiful and read books (history, mystery, thrillers and chillers). (That was incomplete, but I liked the rhymes). Being in my 70th year it is probably that I'll find the eternal answers (if they are there) sooner than most of you. I'd just as soon wait as long as possible. Best, Jon .i feel differently about Music, I can hear music without any physical vibrations in the air, can hear it, grasp it and put it on paper. Then it can appear as a alternate sequence of variating air densities, but it was already Music even before that. The solely concern of creating alternate compressions in the air-you can't be that 'Technical' to the core can you? There is more than the physical part to music-it's Feeling. Feeling is Intent. We are Humans--much more than machines. Machines can detect vocabulary and syntax commands, mesure frequencies, classify in neat taxonomy categories, detect faults and missmatches etc, but cannot be aware of Feeling. I (or millions others) can write a musical piece and Intend you to feel a particular feeling, mood or even image from it. Without any syntax, no vocabulary. And if my Intending has been impeccable, if I had enough personal power, energy and selflesness, then such a music can move you to feel inexplicable joy, longing..: whatever the feeling at hand is-even from a sh-i-tt-y LoFi recording that doesn't challenge even half of the humanly audable range of sound frequencies. The Vibratory Force-Intent, is ancient and mysterious, that's why it's 'Old Age'. It's everywhere and we can be friends with it or command it. It starts by starting to examine your true Intent for everything you do or say. Then you'll discover that most of it is hooked on the Me, it's a 'self-service' (mastur...). The 'Cult of ME' today-we can't even give a gift nowadays without contaminating the whole thing with some issue of the Me and its endless worries for selfpresentation-lol. In 'New Age' there is no need to examine Intent: you can just dress up in something, chant, and dance with some godesses in the forest (haha). A self presentation circus where in the end you stay the same a s s that you are (or even worse). So they sharpen razor blades in pyramids? I haven't heard of that but may-be they are simply pragmatic people that use a phenomenon, not new-agers. Did it ever occure to you that this phenomenon may happen as a result of 'reversing time' effect in the pyramid (new age asside-lol)? The music of the spheres--John Keely's Solar System? One thing is for sure---this world is more mysterious and wonderous than we can ever dream of. To open its wonders one need to explore honestly without preconcieved judgements. There is one branch in philosophy
