Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
In a message dated 8/1/2005 11:10:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But there are many original 19th century arrangements ;-) of Mozart pieces for guitar. Apart from the obvious Sor, Diabelli, Mertz, Morlitor and Traeg come to mind. There's a well-done new edition of 'Mozart for Guitar' from Doblinger (35 910). Not to mention James Edwards arrangements of Mozart's (so called) Viennese Sonatinas for solo guitar; published by Mel Bay. :) I guess my point was; wouldn't it be great to have a genius like Mozart ( assuming he would know the guitar as well as he did the piano) writing pieces for guitar? James -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Playing without a warm-up.
Herbert, I like all the answers so far, when I was singing for my supper I always opened with the same simple piece - I played it before introducing the program. Call it a signature piece instead of a prelude if you want. And Craig suggests a breathing for relaxation, but as one who likes his booze I always found a small drink to be relaxing (no more than a half a beer in a half hour, or a wee drappie well watered). I'm sure I'll be told that is an artificial means and that alcohol reduces performance (which is correct), but inhibitions and nerves also reduce performance. Each will have his own best method for relaxing. The key to opening with any audience is to realize that they are human also and will accept honesty, and enjoy it. Tell them, if you choose that route, that you are playing a warm-up prelude in front of them. Or perhaps develop a routine of scales and runs with an educational description of the lute to use as a signature prelude to each performance. Demonstrate the techniques, if you are a solo act, with the guise of giving them a better appreciation of the instrument and the pieces you are going to play (tough to do if you are a rock guitarist, but not so tough if you are playing the exotic lute). Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
Also OT, In my aging memory there is a quote from Mozart (probably apochryphal). The guitar is an orchestra unto itself. I have no idea where I saw it, or heard it, but it was many years ago so I have lost the context. If the quote is accurate then it might imply that Mozart might have had guitar sounds in mind when writing for piano. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
The quotation that the guitar is like a miniature orchestra is NOT from Mozart. The quotation is NOT from Beethoven. The quotation is in an essay about the guitar that BERLIOZ wrote for an obscure Parisian journal of the arts, _Debats_ (8 June 1855). While we're on the subject, there is no evidence that Chopin declared that the only sound lovelier than one guitar is two. That seems to be a paraphrase of something Mozart also did NOT say, The only thing worse than one flute, is two. Beethoven is sometimes said to have attended a guitar recital by Giuliani. If he did, of course, he heard nothing! He even wrote a little note to one of his Viennese publishers, asking please give my regards to Giuliani. Of course, the publisher's Giuliani might be the guy who polished up the brass on the big front door. The guitarist Giuliani played 'cello in the first performance of the Seventh Symphony, but I imagine Beethoven didn't hear him that time, either. He wasn't asked back to play in the Eighth. The point? There's no factual basis for the belief common in the guitar world that Giuliani influenced Beethoven. They may never even have spoken to one another. Oh yes, I also doubt that Schubert had a guitar hanging on the wall above his bed. This should end Guitar Mythology 101 for tonite. - Original Message - From: Jon Murphy To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 3:40 PM Subject: Re: OT: Mozart for guitar Also OT, In my aging memory there is a quote from Mozart (probably apochryphal). The guitar is an orchestra unto itself. I have no idea where I saw it, or heard it, but it was many years ago so I have lost the context. If the quote is accurate then it might imply that Mozart might have had guitar sounds in mind when writing for piano. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
- Original Message - From: Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wednesday, August 3, 2005 4:04 am Subject: Re: OT: Mozart for guitar ...There's no factual basis for the belief common in the guitar world that Giuliani influenced Beethoven. They may never even have spoken to one another. However, another contemporary guitarist, Anton Diabelli, certainly did. I'm not aware of any evidence that Diabelli's guitar playing ever entered Beethoven's perception, but their interaction is undeniable (consider Beethoven's op. 120, e.g.). There were also many period arrangements of Beethoven songs for guitar. Oh yes, I also doubt that Schubert had a guitar hanging on the wall above his bed. Having never seen a photo of him in his living quarters, I don't know, but Schubert certainly played and loved the guitar. I believe a fair number of his songs were published with guitar accompaniment before the piano accompaniment became available. It would be hard to argue against the fact that guitar enjoyed a wave of popularity in Viennese parlors around this time. There is no read to give this notion any more or less weight than it deserves. I like guitar as much as any other plucked string. There is no need to exaggerate its various historical appearances, but no need to belittle them either. Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wednesday, August 3, 2005 1:59 am Subject: Re: OT: Mozart for guitar ...I guess my point was; wouldn't it be great to have a genius like Mozart ( assuming he would know the guitar as well as he did the piano) writing pieces for guitar? I need to add the disclaimer that I appreciate Mozart, but have never been a great fan of his work. That said, there were plenty of just-post-Mozart guitarists who generated some very fine material for guitar. A couple of my favorites are de Fossa, Legnani, and Regondi. The Boccherini quintets and Sinfonia are pleasant enough. Paganini did pretty well by guitar as did the ubiquitous Sor and Giuliani. ...And Mertz, Carcassi, Carulli, Matiegka, von Call, Gragnani, Sychra, Weber, etc. Feel free to enjoy the guitar for what it is; there's no need to pine over what it has not been. Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Fw: Byrd
Dear Sal; Slight correction: Los Maestros Gary Digman - Original Message - From: Sal Salvaggio [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Howard Posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 4:32 AM Subject: Re: Fw: Byrd How 'bout this name for a vihuela Quartet EL MAESTROS SS Salvatore Salvaggio http://www.Salvaggio.50megs.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.9/62 - Release Date: 8/2/2005
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
Arthur, If I may, and I did spend some typing time saying how much I respect your opinion on another thread, may I ask you not to shout at me. I did say that it was a vague memory that the quote was from Mozart, and that it was probably apochryphal. You don't need the caps NOT from Mozart, nor the NOT from Beethoven. You could simply say I recognize the quote and it was from an obscure Parisian journal and attributed to Berlioz. ] When speculative answers are given to questions it is not a matter for correction in the sense of a beating, merely for a gentle correction with the facts. Should we deny the speculative answers then we would lose the threads of consciousness that lead to real answers. Best, Jon - Original Message - From: Arthur Ness To: Jon Murphy ; LGS-Europe ; Lute Net ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 4:04 AM Subject: Re: OT: Mozart for guitar The quotation that the guitar is like a miniature orchestra is NOT from Mozart. The quotation is NOT from Beethoven. The quotation is in an essay about the guitar that BERLIOZ wrote for an obscure Parisian journal of the arts, _Debats_ (8 June 1855). While we're on the subject, there is no evidence that Chopin declared that the only sound lovelier than one guitar is two. That seems to be a paraphrase of something Mozart also did NOT say, The only thing worse than one flute, is two. Beethoven is sometimes said to have attended a guitar recital by Giuliani. If he did, of course, he heard nothing! He even wrote a little note to one of his Viennese publishers, asking please give my regards to Giuliani. Of course, the publisher's Giuliani might be the guy who polished up the brass on the big front door. The guitarist Giuliani played 'cello in the first performance of the Seventh Symphony, but I imagine Beethoven didn't hear him that time, either. He wasn't asked back to play in the Eighth. The point? There's no factual basis for the belief common in the guitar world that Giuliani influenced Beethoven. They may never even have spoken to one another. Oh yes, I also doubt that Schubert had a guitar hanging on the wall above his bed. This should end Guitar Mythology 101 for tonite. - Original Message - From: Jon Murphy To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 3:40 PM Subject: Re: OT: Mozart for guitar Also OT, In my aging memory there is a quote from Mozart (probably apochryphal). The guitar is an orchestra unto itself. I have no idea where I saw it, or heard it, but it was many years ago so I have lost the context. If the quote is accurate then it might imply that Mozart might have had guitar sounds in mind when writing for piano. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
I seem to recall having read a quote attributed to Berlioz to the effect that, There is no sound worse than the sound of fifty guitars playing the same note at the same time. Was not Berlioz a guitarist? Gary Digman P.S: What's the definition of a minor second? Two guitarists playing the same note at the same time. What's the definition of counterpont? Two guitarists playing the same line at the same time. - Original Message - From: Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED]; LGS-Europe [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 1:04 AM Subject: Re: OT: Mozart for guitar The quotation that the guitar is like a miniature orchestra is NOT from Mozart. The quotation is NOT from Beethoven. The quotation is in an essay about the guitar that BERLIOZ wrote for an obscure Parisian journal of the arts, _Debats_ (8 June 1855). While we're on the subject, there is no evidence that Chopin declared that the only sound lovelier than one guitar is two. That seems to be a paraphrase of something Mozart also did NOT say, The only thing worse than one flute, is two. Beethoven is sometimes said to have attended a guitar recital by Giuliani. If he did, of course, he heard nothing! He even wrote a little note to one of his Viennese publishers, asking please give my regards to Giuliani. Of course, the publisher's Giuliani might be the guy who polished up the brass on the big front door. The guitarist Giuliani played 'cello in the first performance of the Seventh Symphony, but I imagine Beethoven didn't hear him that time, either. He wasn't asked back to play in the Eighth. The point? There's no factual basis for the belief common in the guitar world that Giuliani influenced Beethoven. They may never even have spoken to one another. Oh yes, I also doubt that Schubert had a guitar hanging on the wall above his bed. This should end Guitar Mythology 101 for tonite. - Original Message - From: Jon Murphy To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 3:40 PM Subject: Re: OT: Mozart for guitar Also OT, In my aging memory there is a quote from Mozart (probably apochryphal). The guitar is an orchestra unto itself. I have no idea where I saw it, or heard it, but it was many years ago so I have lost the context. If the quote is accurate then it might imply that Mozart might have had guitar sounds in mind when writing for piano. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.9/62 - Release Date: 8/2/2005
Re: Historical pitch (was lute notation)
Nicely said, But there is yet the question as to what note is correct. I'm sure we all know the format of the tempering of the natural scale, but that has put a memory scale into our heads that is the equal temperament piano scale. But you have made the point, the sound in one's head is the goal. The ascending and descending scales are different when dealing with other temperaments, or the natual scale. But most of us are indoctrinated to the sound of equal temperament - even in singing where the variations are infinite. There is no note that is correct, the Scot's pipes are in a limited mode, and the various whistles all have a bit of a variation in relative pitch. Nothing is perfect. I don't know the serpent, but I'm sure it all fits. The wind instruments, whether horn, trumpet, reed or whistle, all have fixed formats that can be bent a bit by fingering. The stringed instruments can be bent a bit by tuning, or on the fretted ones a bit of fussing behind the fret. It all comes back to the same thing, some instruments work off the modes and scales of the West, and some the less accurate (in the Pythagorean sense) of their own scales. Ir is fun to work with the quarter tones and the disharmonies. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
Hi All There is a fantastic biography by Thomas F. Heck entitled Mauro Giuliani Virtuoso Guitarist and Composer pub. by Editions Orphee 1995 that chronicles the guitarist's life, the guitar in Italy and it's place in the concert life of Vienna. A fascinating must read for those interested in guitar history. I picked the book in back in March at a bookshop in Baltimore - devoured it in two days. SS Salvatore Salvaggio http://www.Salvaggio.50megs.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
Beethoven is sometimes said to have attended a guitar recital by Giuliani. If he did, of course, he heard nothing! He even wrote a little note to one of his Viennese publishers, asking please give my regards to Giuliani. Of course, the publisher's Giuliani might be the guy who polished up the brass on the big front door. The guitarist Giuliani played 'cello in the first performance of the Seventh Symphony, but I imagine Beethoven didn't hear him that time, either. He wasn't asked back to play in the Eighth. The point? There's no factual basis for the belief common in the guitar world that Giuliani influenced Beethoven. They may never even have spoken to one another. In fact Giuliani's music is so memorable that it couldn't influence ANYONE.. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: OT: Mozart for guitar
Really, children. I thought we had moved on past the guitar-bashing stage. Roman doesn't like Giuliani (I wonder who will be discussing Roman after he's been dead for 150 years) and now the cheap-shot jokes? Some of us love the guitar - almost all of us began on the guitar. Give it a rest! Joseph Mayes From: gary digman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wed 8/3/2005 5:25 AM To: lutelist Subject: Re: OT: Mozart for guitar I seem to recall having read a quote attributed to Berlioz to the effect that, There is no sound worse than the sound of fifty guitars playing the same note at the same time. Was not Berlioz a guitarist? Gary Digman P.S: What's the definition of a minor second? Two guitarists playing the same note at the same time. What's the definition of counterpont? Two guitarists playing the same line at the same time. - Original Message - From: Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED]; LGS-Europe [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 1:04 AM Subject: Re: OT: Mozart for guitar The quotation that the guitar is like a miniature orchestra is NOT from Mozart. The quotation is NOT from Beethoven. The quotation is in an essay about the guitar that BERLIOZ wrote for an obscure Parisian journal of the arts, _Debats_ (8 June 1855). While we're on the subject, there is no evidence that Chopin declared that the only sound lovelier than one guitar is two. That seems to be a paraphrase of something Mozart also did NOT say, The only thing worse than one flute, is two. Beethoven is sometimes said to have attended a guitar recital by Giuliani. If he did, of course, he heard nothing! He even wrote a little note to one of his Viennese publishers, asking please give my regards to Giuliani. Of course, the publisher's Giuliani might be the guy who polished up the brass on the big front door. The guitarist Giuliani played 'cello in the first performance of the Seventh Symphony, but I imagine Beethoven didn't hear him that time, either. He wasn't asked back to play in the Eighth. The point? There's no factual basis for the belief common in the guitar world that Giuliani influenced Beethoven. They may never even have spoken to one another. Oh yes, I also doubt that Schubert had a guitar hanging on the wall above his bed. This should end Guitar Mythology 101 for tonite. - Original Message - From: Jon Murphy To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 3:40 PM Subject: Re: OT: Mozart for guitar Also OT, In my aging memory there is a quote from Mozart (probably apochryphal). The guitar is an orchestra unto itself. I have no idea where I saw it, or heard it, but it was many years ago so I have lost the context. If the quote is accurate then it might imply that Mozart might have had guitar sounds in mind when writing for piano. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.9/62 - Release Date: 8/2/2005 --
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
Don't forget Brian Jeffery's Sor biography. - Original Message - From: Sal Salvaggio To: Jon Murphy ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 7:37 AM Subject: Re: OT: Mozart for guitar Hi All There is a fantastic biography by Thomas F. Heck entitled Mauro Giuliani Virtuoso Guitarist and Composer pub. by Editions Orphee 1995 that chronicles the guitarist's life, the guitar in Italy and it's place in the concert life of Vienna. A fascinating must read for those interested in guitar history. I picked the book in back in March at a bookshop in Baltimore - devoured it in two days. SS Salvatore Salvaggio http://www.Salvaggio.50megs.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
Hi all, on Wednesday 03 August 2005 15:08, Mayes, Joseph wrote: I thought we had moved on past the guitar-bashing stage. Roman doesn't like Giuliani (I wonder who will be discussing Roman after he's been dead for 150 years) Roman just forgets the expression in my humble opinion in his composer and musician critics ... ;-) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT Mozart for guitar
Really, children. I thought we had moved on past the guitar-bashing stage. Roman doesn't like Giuliani (I wonder who will be discussing Roman after he's been dead for 150 years) 1. Happens to the best of us, as you may recall. 2. Some are discussing Kapsberger, although even his champions admit that as a composer he was simply incompetent. 21st century relativism legitimized a lot of crap. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
Roman just forgets the expression in my humble opinion in his composer and musician critics ... ;-) I always interpret the abbreviation IMHO as in my HONEST opinion. RT ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
...I guess my point was; wouldn't it be great to have a genius like Mozart ( assuming he would know the guitar as well as he did the piano) writing pieces for guitar? It would be nice indeed, but he obviously didn't find it inspirational. I need to add the disclaimer that I appreciate Mozart, but have never been a great fan of his work. That said, there were plenty of just-post-Mozart guitarists who generated some very fine material for guitar. A couple of my favorites are de Fossa, Legnani, and Regondi. I am glad you used the word material rather than music. The Boccherini quintets and Sinfonia are pleasant enough. P B's quintets are a lot more than pleasant. They are FINE music, with or without guitar.. aganini did pretty well by guitar as did the ubiquitous Sor and Giuliani. ..And Mertz, Carcassi, Carulli, Matiegka, von Call, Gragnani, Sychra, Weber, etc. Feel free to enjoy the guitar for what it is; there's no need to pine over what it has not been. Agree wholeheartedly. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
RE: OT: Mozart for guitar
..and since we're off-topic, who created the painting/lithograph/? of the guitarists engaged in a salon battle? I believe it was circa 1850. I'd love to find a copy of that one. All of those guitars being wielded as weapons! Sort of reminds me of this list occasionally :) Garry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
On Wednesday, Aug 3, 2005, at 07:02 America/Los_Angeles, Garry Bryan wrote: who created the painting/lithograph/? of the guitarists engaged in a salon battle? Are you thinking of the Discussion between the Carullists and the Molinists fro La Guitaromanie by Charles de Marescot? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Historical pitch (was lute notation)
I had a related experience which is probably not unique to the way *my* brain is wired. When I was a guitarist, I could never wrap my head around playing and singing at the same time from a vocal/instrument score.. I know many pianists and guitarists who have the same difficulty. Curiously, as soon as I started to learn lute tablature it all just fell into place pretty much overnight. I assume that staff and tab notation take slightly different paths through our mental processes because one is a graph of pitch vs. time and the other is a plot of finger position vs time. I guess pitch and finger position are sufficiently far apart in our heads not to interfere with one another the way pitch and speech do. The curious thing is that after this discovery, I found to my surprise that not only did my ability to sing and play from staff - voice/tab - lute emerge, but also that reading both from staff notation became easier and to my complete mystification, my previously very limited keyboard reading skills improved too. Has anyone else found that learning tab is the magic bullet for sightreading difficulties? Marcus Jon Murphy wrote: Tony, P.S. Does anyone else who dabbles in different instruments experience the same phenomenon as I do, one example of which is that I can play the gamba from alto clef, but I can't read it on the keyboard? TC Yes, in a sense. I play double strung harp (along with other instruments). My left hand has a reading problem (nothing to do with my brain g). Pieces written for the 2X will often use the treble clef for both lines, but as the instrument has 3 1/2 octaves I'm often reading the bass clef for the left hand, sometimes tranlating it up an octrave and sometimes in the written range. It involves a mental adjustment (and there are some small harp pieces that are all in one stave of the treble using up and down whatchumacallums (note flags) to indicate the hand. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Historical pitch (was lute notation)
Marcus, I can't say that I've found that tab has made it easier for me to sing at play at the same time - it seems to be more or less that same whether tab or notes for me. I have noticed, however, that its very easy for me to sing ABOVE the lowest note of whatever I'm playing, but very very difficult for me to sing below the instrument. Something in the brain... Perhaps the tab helped you out because it mostly only marks the start times of the notes you play on the lute so that your brain was able to see it as a series of events that you have little control of once the string is plucked. When we're singing, of course, we have a continuum of notes tied to breath control, etc. Modern notation more or less reflects this with the embedded rhythmic notation, dynamics, etc. Therefore, when you look at tab with a voice part, the brain is able think about them in two seperate catagories. When we play the lute (or guitar or piano) from pitch notation, we're still only performing a series of self-contained events, but the notation itself makes it LOOK indentical to the voice part. Maybe now that your brain has learned to differentiate between the two skills via tab reading, it can now do this regardless of what you actually see in front of you. Chris --- Marcus Merrin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I had a related experience which is probably not unique to the way *my* brain is wired. When I was a guitarist, I could never wrap my head around playing and singing at the same time from a vocal/instrument score.. I know many pianists and guitarists who have the same difficulty. Curiously, as soon as I started to learn lute tablature it all just fell into place pretty much overnight. I assume that staff and tab notation take slightly different paths through our mental processes because one is a graph of pitch vs. time and the other is a plot of finger position vs time. I guess pitch and finger position are sufficiently far apart in our heads not to interfere with one another the way pitch and speech do. The curious thing is that after this discovery, I found to my surprise that not only did my ability to sing and play from staff - voice/tab - lute emerge, but also that reading both from staff notation became easier and to my complete mystification, my previously very limited keyboard reading skills improved too. Has anyone else found that learning tab is the magic bullet for sightreading difficulties? Marcus Jon Murphy wrote: Tony, P.S. Does anyone else who dabbles in different instruments experience the same phenomenon as I do, one example of which is that I can play the gamba from alto clef, but I can't read it on the keyboard? TC Yes, in a sense. I play double strung harp (along with other instruments). My left hand has a reading problem (nothing to do with my brain g). Pieces written for the 2X will often use the treble clef for both lines, but as the instrument has 3 1/2 octaves I'm often reading the bass clef for the left hand, sometimes tranlating it up an octrave and sometimes in the written range. It involves a mental adjustment (and there are some small harp pieces that are all in one stave of the treble using up and down whatchumacallums (note flags) to indicate the hand. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: OT Mozart for guitar
Roman Turovsky wrote: 2. Some are discussing Kapsberger, although even his champions admit that as a composer he was simply incompetent. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT Mozart for guitar
Roman Turovsky wrote: 2. Some are discussing Kapsberger, although even his champions admit that as a composer he was simply incompetent. See Lislevand's booklet a propos. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Historical pitch (was lute notation)
interesting idea. i wonder if the difficulty you experience in singing while playing the guitar is due to the guitar being your first instrument. was it? having got over the hurdle of learning one instrument - any instrument - learning the second becomes more or less a case of adapting what you already know. this could free your mind to take singing on board as well. i can sing and play when i have to but play in this instance usually means strumming two-finger chords. notation is simply beyond me and learning by tab is a very slow, step by step procedure. luckily, all i'm interested in playing are early dance melodies. if i had to tackle anything more lengthly and complex i'd have to buy a foot stool ... and a music stand ... and then i'd have to get one of those finely crafted cabinets for sheet music ... where would it end? - bill --- Marcus Merrin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I had a related experience which is probably not unique to the way *my* brain is wired. When I was a guitarist, I could never wrap my head around playing and singing at the same time from a vocal/instrument score.. I know many pianists and guitarists who have the same difficulty. Curiously, as soon as I started to learn lute tablature it all just fell into place pretty much overnight. I assume that staff and tab notation take slightly different paths through our mental processes because one is a graph of pitch vs. time and the other is a plot of finger position vs time. I guess pitch and finger position are sufficiently far apart in our heads not to interfere with one another the way pitch and speech do. The curious thing is that after this discovery, I found to my surprise that not only did my ability to sing and play from staff - voice/tab - lute emerge, but also that reading both from staff notation became easier and to my complete mystification, my previously very limited keyboard reading skills improved too. Has anyone else found that learning tab is the magic bullet for sightreading difficulties? Marcus Jon Murphy wrote: Tony, P.S. Does anyone else who dabbles in different instruments experience the same phenomenon as I do, one example of which is that I can play the gamba from alto clef, but I can't read it on the keyboard? TC Yes, in a sense. I play double strung harp (along with other instruments). My left hand has a reading problem (nothing to do with my brain g). Pieces written for the 2X will often use the treble clef for both lines, but as the instrument has 3 1/2 octaves I'm often reading the bass clef for the left hand, sometimes tranlating it up an octrave and sometimes in the written range. It involves a mental adjustment (and there are some small harp pieces that are all in one stave of the treble using up and down whatchumacallums (note flags) to indicate the hand. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html ___ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
Kapsberger and competence
Sorry about that last one; I'm using a new mail program. (I'd be interested in hearing from someone who knows the ins and outs of Apple's Mail progam) Roman Turovsky wrote: Some are discussing Kapsberger, although even his champions admit that as a composer he was simply incompetent. There aren't a lot of musicians championing composers they consider incompetent. I'll grant that Rolf Lislevand's remarks about Kapsberger in the notes to his CD of Libro Quarto makes me wonder why he bothered recording it (maybe they sound less damning in the original French) and why he's headed a group called Ensemble Kapsberger. Lislevand does seem to have a knack for damning with loud damns. Those same notes say a taste for artificiality became the aesthetic value of a decadent period, later to be called Baroque. Take THAT, J.S. Bach... But it's a mistake to extrapolate too much from one strange set of comments accompanying a strange recording. Paul O'Dette's introduction to his 1990 Kapsberger CD makes rather more sense, noting the esteem in which Kapsberger was held in the 17th century, and his falling out with Doni, whose vitriolic [printed] attack [against Kapsberger] has apparently provided the basis of most commentary about Kapsberger and his music ever since, without, evidently, objective consideration of the music. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Playing without a warm-up.
The suggestions below are not guaranteed, but hope springs eternal: 1) If you practice 3-4 or more times/day (shorter periods)than 1-2 large sessions), you warm up faster; 2) The Glenn Gould approach: excuse yourself to go the bathroom or kitchen and run hot water over your hands as long as you can get away with it and ponder how did you get in such a situation; and, 3) Prayer - it may work. Sandy - Original Message - From: Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Herbert Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 4:44 PM Subject: Re: Playing without a warm-up. Herbert Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Any techniques for the problem of playing without a warm-up? must be mentally on the whole, I'm afraid ;) Cheers, Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
At 02:59 PM 8/3/2005, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not pining, but I think Mozart was a much better composer than the ones mentioned above; it would've been interesting. Any guitar that Mozart might've heard at that time would probably have been the five course type anyway... It was a transitional time for guitar. I suspect the guitars Mozart might have encountered might have been left single strung as five-stringers, at least later in his life. There is also a fair chance he would have encountered mandoras in tunings identical or nearly so to later six-string guitars. Albrechtsberger, e.g., wrote concerti for mandora. On the quality of Mozart's light efforts at composition, I don't know that he would have offered the guitar anything to qualify as any more profound than de Fossa, Sor, or Giuliani did shortly after Mozart's passing. His mandolin song accompaniments, e.g., are very pleasant, sprightly, attractive, etc. but a little on the light side and, not being known as a mandolinist, a little light on exploiting the mandolin's technical capabilities. Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
At 03:48 PM 8/3/2005, Roman Turovsky wrote: Are you joking? Eugene, this is like saying tuna was whitebait. Are you not familiar with Mass in c-minor, Requiem, sonatas in a and c, fantasias in d and c, 25th symphony, concerti ##20, 24 26??? Not joking at all. But you've removed my assertion from its context. There's a reason Mozart chose to not write his truly profound works for guitar. I was speculating that had he written specifically for guitar, he probably wouldn't have put any more effort at profundity into it than he did the pleasant trifles he concocted for mandolin. There simply wasn't any precedent for heavy guitar music at that point in time. ...And, not being a guitarist, I doubt Mozart could have exploited the instrument's technical quirks as well as de Fossa, Sor, or Giuliani. Could you tell us of anyone who might be considered HEAVY apropos mandoline? Certainly not heavy, but there is plenty that was more thorough at exploiting the technical idiosyncrasies of of the various mandolin types than Mozart: Leone, Hoffman, Denis, Barbella... Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
Are you joking? Eugene, this is like saying tuna was whitebait. Are you not familiar with Mass in c-minor, Requiem, sonatas in a and c, fantasias in d and c, 25th symphony, concerti ##20, 24 26??? Not joking at all. But you've removed my assertion from its context. There's a reason Mozart chose to not write his truly profound works for guitar. Along with everyone else (except maybe Paulo Galvao...) I was speculating that had he written specifically for guitar, he probably wouldn't have put any more effort at profundity into it than he did the pleasant trifles he concocted for mandolin. Agreed. It would have been, as we say in Russian, trading a bar of soap for a hole-punch. There simply wasn't any precedent for heavy guitar music at that point in time. And a very long time after, as well. ...And, not being a guitarist, I doubt Mozart could have exploited the instrument's technical quirks as well as de Fossa, Sor, or Giuliani. Quirks don't make profound. Could you tell us of anyone who might be considered HEAVY apropos mandoline? Certainly not heavy, but there is plenty that was more thorough at exploiting the technical idiosyncrasies of of the various mandolin types than Mozart: Leone, Hoffman, Denis, Barbella... Best, Eugene Technical idiosyncrfasies are not musical substance. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
On Wednesday, Aug 3, 2005, at 12:33 America/Los_Angeles, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: There is also a fair chance he would have encountered mandoras in tunings identical or nearly so to later six-string guitars. Maybe it's a hallucination of long standing, but I recall seeing a picture of Leopold Mozart seated with Wolfgang and his sister (aged maybe nine and 12 or so) and holding a mandora. Has anyone else ever seen this? HP To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
At 04:17 PM 8/3/2005, Roman Turovsky wrote: Quirks don't make profound. Technical idiosyncrfasies are not musical substance. I certainly wouldn't argue that they are, but they are important considerations of instrumental composition and can amount to something rather exciting. Or lack thereof. That's why Giuliani remains popular; it's fun and should be enjoyed without shame for what it is, Fun to play, sure, but not to listen to. even if it's not quite on par with the sophistication of Mozart's Requiem or Beethoven's Hammerklavier. Inspiration rather than sophistication. Mozart, in writing for mandolin, barely glanced towards profundity and wholly skirted technically advanced. Again, I doubt he would have offered the guitar anything different. I might sound disrespectful of an entire instrument, but it would be impossible to make a small rodent roar like a large feline. The most profound lines given to squeaky voice would lose all impact. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
At 04:45 PM 8/3/2005, Roman Turovsky wrote: would have offered the guitar anything different. I might sound disrespectful of an entire instrument, but it would be impossible to make a small rodent roar like a large feline. The most profound lines given to squeaky voice would lose all impact. There you go. I actually like what the guitar does and make no pretense to what it can't do. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
would have offered the guitar anything different. I might sound disrespectful of an entire instrument, but it would be impossible to make a small rodent roar like a large feline. The most profound lines given to squeaky voice would lose all impact. There you go. I actually like what the guitar does and make no pretense to what it can't do. Eugene I think guitar habitually makes unrealistic claims.. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
I might sound disrespectful of an entire instrument, but it would be impossible to make a small rodent roar like a large feline. The most profound lines given to squeaky voice would lose all impact. So it's a mistake to try to write profound music for the lute? Only if it is a lute in in a or higher. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
At 04:59 PM 8/3/2005, Roman Turovsky wrote: I think guitar habitually makes unrealistic claims.. Like lutes, mandolins, serpents, mandoras, etc., guitars are only inanimate tools. Guitars can't be blamed for what passionate, sometimes overzealous guitarists do in their name. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
Roman Turovsky wrote: So it's a mistake to try to write profound music for the lute? Only if it is a lute in in a or higher. Are we assuming A=440 for these purposes? If so, is it OK to write profound music for lute in A if we're at A=392? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
Segovia also said: The song of the piano is a discourse. The song of the 'cello is an elegy. But the song of the guitar is a song. (Actually, to be more correct, he said The zonk of the guitar is a zonk, but I have translated/transliterated) But what is the song of the lute? Marcus Alain Veylit wrote: Actually I thought it was Segovia, who said that each string of the guitar was like a separate little instrument Alain To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
Marcus Merrin [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Segovia also said: The song of the piano is a discourse. The song of the 'cello is an elegy. But the song of the guitar is a song. (Actually, to be more correct, he said The zonk of the guitar is a zonk, but I have translated/transliterated) But what is the song of the lute? another koan... :) best, though Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
So it's a mistake to try to write profound music for the lute? Only if it is a lute in in a or higher. Are we assuming A=440 for these purposes? If so, is it OK to write profound music for lute in A if we're at A=392? Let me put it this way: there should be a set minimum string length, something like 59-60 cm, with severe legal penalties otherwise. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
Dear Alain, It's definitely Berlioz, altho Segovia may have said something similar. The operative words for Berlioz are miniature orchestra. In the article he describes the sound qualities of the Parisian guitar of his day. It is cited in Barzun's biography. I think only one library in the U.S. has that arts journal from 1855. I've never seen the actual article. But a Berlioz scholar at Smith or Vassar told me about it. And the master's thesis at the U of Maryland. He said it was a good piece of work, and I tried unsuccessfully to get it on ILL. You might try, if it is of particular interest. It's listed in NG (Berlioz bibl.) Berlioz and the Slur Heavens! Nope, not that one.g Here it is: P. J. Dallman: Influences and Use of the Guitar in the Music of Berlioz (thesis, U. of Maryland, 1972). Cited NG 2 (1980 ed.): 610. arthur - Original Message - From: Alain Veylit To: Arthur Ness Cc: Lute Net ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 3:37 PM Subject: Re: OT: Mozart for guitar Actually I thought it was Segovia, who said that each string of the guitar was like a separate little instrument Alain Arthur Ness wrote: The quotation that the guitar is like a miniature orchestra is NOT from Mozart. The quotation is NOT from Beethoven. The quotation is in an essay about the guitar that BERLIOZ wrote for an obscure Parisian journal of the arts, _Debats_ (8 June 1855). While we're on the subject, there is no evidence that Chopin declared that the only sound lovelier than one guitar is two. That seems to be a paraphrase of something Mozart also did NOT say, The only thing worse than one flute, is two. Beethoven is sometimes said to have attended a guitar recital by Giuliani. If he did, of course, he heard nothing! He even wrote a little note to one of his Viennese publishers, asking please give my regards to Giuliani. Of course, the publisher's Giuliani might be the guy who polished up the brass on the big front door. The guitarist Giuliani played 'cello in the first performance of the Seventh Symphony, but I imagine Beethoven didn't hear him that time, either. He wasn't asked back to play in the Eighth. The point? There's no factual basis for the belief common in the guitar world that Giuliani influenced Beethoven. They may never even have spoken to one another. Oh yes, I also doubt that Schubert had a guitar hanging on the wall above his bed. This should end Guitar Mythology 101 for tonite. - Original Message - From: Jon Murphy To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2005 3:40 PM Subject: Re: OT: Mozart for guitar Also OT, In my aging memory there is a quote from Mozart (probably apochryphal). The guitar is an orchestra unto itself. I have no idea where I saw it, or heard it, but it was many years ago so I have lost the context. If the quote is accurate then it might imply that Mozart might have had guitar sounds in mind when writing for piano. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- --
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
In a message dated 8/3/2005 2:36:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Segovia also said: The song of the piano is a discourse. The song of the 'cello is an elegy. But the song of the guitar is a song. (Actually, to be more correct, he said The zonk of the guitar is a zonk, but I have translated/transliterated) But what is the song of the lute? The song of the lute is transcendental. James -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: OT: Mozart for guitar
On Wednesday, Aug 3, 2005, at 15:04 America/Los_Angeles, Roman Turovsky wrote: Let me put it this way: there should be a set minimum string length, something like 59-60 cm, with severe legal penalties otherwise. Have we told the violinists? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
