[LUTE] Re: New Boy wants lute

[Ed Durbrow]

On Oct 7, 2005, at 12:06 AM, Greg M. Silverman wrote:

> I
> seem to recall a comment made by Nigel North in his book on continuo
> playing that theorbo being a very excellent choice for guitarists  
> coming
> over to the world of continuo playing, more so then
> renaissance tuned lutes, mass of strings or no.
>
> So, there seems to be conflicting opinions on this.

On page xii, North says, "I would advise, again from experience, that  
continuo playing be studied on the lute or archlute first. The  
theorbo is such a different instrumenbt and has many problems which  
are best approached by one who is experienced in continuo playin on  
an easier instrument."

Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/



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[LUTE] Re: New Boy wants lute

[bill kilpatrick]

if he hasn't tip-toed quietly away during discussions,
new boy has probably aged heaps since posting his
question - may i ask him what he thinks of all this
..

- bill  






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[LUTE] Ambrose Galliard and Pavin

[Charles Browne]

does anybody have any biographical details of the 'Ambrose' in the Ambrose
Galliard/Pavin pair. I believe he was Ambrose Lupo de Milan (Julia Graig
McFeely's thesis) but I could not find any other detail.
Thanks
Charles Browne




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[LUTE] Re: New Boy wants lute

[Greg M. Silverman]

Ed Durbrow wrote:

>On Oct 7, 2005, at 12:06 AM, Greg M. Silverman wrote:
>
>  
>
>>I
>>seem to recall a comment made by Nigel North in his book on continuo
>>playing that theorbo being a very excellent choice for guitarists  
>>coming
>>over to the world of continuo playing, more so then
>>renaissance tuned lutes, mass of strings or no.
>>
>>So, there seems to be conflicting opinions on this.
>>
>>
>
>On page xii, North says, "I would advise, again from experience, that  
>continuo playing be studied on the lute or archlute first. The  
>theorbo is such a different instrumenbt and has many problems which  
>are best approached by one who is experienced in continuo playin on  
>an easier instrument."
>
>  
>

I stand corrected... still, I seem to recall him making a comment about
guitarists and theorbos having to do with the single string or something
or other.
(Could I be a bit more vague p'haps?  ;-)   Don't have access to the
book right at this moment, but I will have to look later when I do.)

Greg--



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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Giesbert revisited

[Greg M. Silverman]

Mathias Rösel wrote:

>"Greg Silverman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
>  
>
>>Now it makes sense: that explains the scripty font! Very much in the 
>>baroque style favored by the Reich.
>>
>>
>
>what the heck is the Reich? And which one is the baroque style favoured
>by the Reich?!? Please help me get to know.
>
>  
>

Just an off the cuff sarcastic comment relating to Dale's comments about
the "font"... no idea really! Absolutely no basis in reality
as we know it! :-)

>>Would be interested in the history of Herr Giesbert. Is he still alive? 
>>
>>
>
>*16.08.1896 †1972, Neuwied / Rhine area. Musicologist. Many publications
>on, and republications of, early music. Article on Mylius in MGG vol.
>16.
>  
>

Dankle Schoen! Sadly nothing in Groves about him.

Greg--





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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Giesbert revisited

[Greg M. Silverman]

Mathias Rösel wrote:

>Schott's page of Giesbert's works:
>
>http://www.schott-music.com/artist/show,7364.html
>
>Regards,
>
>Mathias
>--
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
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>  
>
This is great!

Danke Schoen!

Greg--


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EnHS Health Studies
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phone: 612-625-6870
fax: 612-624-3370

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Giesbert revisited

[Greg M. Silverman]

Greet Schamp wrote:

> Dear Mr. Silverman (isn't that a German name too?? very suspicious!),
>
> I think you did wrong accusing Giesbert and insulting all Germans
> living now as if they were collaborating with or responsible for  the
> mistakes of Hitler.


Uggh!  :-(   Sorry for any misunderstaning my post may have sent. I
meant no insult to anyone... I was only replying sarcastically to Dale's
comments (for which I humbly apologize for any misunderstanding
generated by my comments).


>
> Perhaps the answers by Rainer and Matthias , especially the German
> texts should be translated to be understood properly by you. 


Yes, I fully agree...


> Living in Europe, I also own old books (and even this excellent
> Giesbert method) using those "gothic" fonts, there is nothing wrong
> with this. Do you know you're employing and reading also very special
> fonts when playing from different types of tablature, especially in
> facsimiles? Why do you accept these and attack poor Giesbert, he and
> others like D. Bruger and E. Klima did a very pioneering job by 
> researching and saving a lot of lute music we're playing now. 


Again, I think the music in the Giesbert method as well as the exercises
are very good stuff. I have tried translating some of the German text,
but have had an incredibly hard time at it given the gothic script in
which it is written, so I would very much welcome a good translation of it.



> Even some manuscripts which were lost during that WW are copied by
> them, so we can still play it.


For which I am most greatful.

And regarding my lastname:  the name is from my grandparents who
originated from Rumania, but of course given the periods of migration of
Jews across Europe, the name could have possibly originated in Germany.

Greg--



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[LUTE] New Boy

[cweaver100]

The passage you are thinking of from Nigel North's book is page 18.  He
writes: "Modern guitarists should note that the theorbo is an ideal
instrument for them to attempt as it has none of the problems caused by the
double courses of the lute."

This echoes the advice he gave me when I was first learning to play lute
and considering going to IU. It seems to conflict with the other passage,
but I believe the other passage is for somebody who has never played any
plucked instrument, in which case it would probably be true that a lute
would be best.

Charlie



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[LUTE] Re: New Boy

[chriswilke]

Charlie,


I don't have Nigel's book in front of me at the
moment, but I seem to recall that part of his
rationale for recommending theorbo as a first
instrument for guitarists was not only because it was
single-strung, but also that it was commonly played
with nails.  

 This was the accepted mode of thinking regarding
the instrument a few years ago, but recent research
seems to suggest that many theorbos were often, if not
even usually, double-strung like lutes.  (Diego
Cantalupe plays one of these on his new Kapsperger,
Libro Terzo CD.)  This in turn suggests a no-nails
approach, (Piccinini, notwithstanding) offering the
would-be lutenist little incentive aside from the
guitar-like tuning to start here.

 I don't think a thumb-under, no-nail, renaissance
technique is all that hard for a classical guitarist
to learn, by the way.


Chris

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> 
> The passage you are thinking of from Nigel North's
> book is page 18.  He
> writes: "Modern guitarists should note that the
> theorbo is an ideal
> instrument for them to attempt as it has none of the
> problems caused by the
> double courses of the lute."
> 
> This echoes the advice he gave me when I was first
> learning to play lute
> and considering going to IU. It seems to conflict
> with the other passage,
> but I believe the other passage is for somebody who
> has never played any
> plucked instrument, in which case it would probably
> be true that a lute
> would be best.
> 
> Charlie
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
>
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> 




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[LUTE] The German lute movement and the guitar-lute

[Kenneth Sparr]

I read with interest Joachim Luedtke's very informative article, Zwischen
Ueberbrettl und Wanderfahrt Aspekte zur Geschichte der Laute und ihrer Musik
in Deutschlanbd von 1900 bis 1926, in the latest issue of Die Laute,
Jahrbuch der Deutsche Lautengesellschaft, Nr. VI. Luedtke does not have
pretentions to have written the definitive history of this period, but there
are a few omissions that maybe should be mentioned.

Luedtke does not with a single word mention the importance of the Swedish
singer and luteplayer Sven Scholander (1860-1936) (nor his lutebuilder
Alfred Brock) in the development of the extremely popular guitar-lute
tradition in Germany and other countries in Europe. As a matter of fact Sven
Scholander had already in the 1880s modified the Swedish lute (see my
webpage at http://www.tabulatura.com/SWELUTE1.htm for a background) into a
single string lute in guitar tuning with 6 bass strings. Scholander appeared
in concerts all over northern Europe in the last decade of the 19th century
singing and playing his lute with great success. During a visit of Kaiser
Wilhelm in 1895 in Sweden he played and sang for him and already in 1896 he
gave concerts in Berlin and Hannover, in 1897 in Vienna. These concerts were
to be followed with others in Germany: in 1904 and 1905 in Berlin and after
the war he made several concert tours in Germany which were extremely
successful.

In 1910-1912 Breikopf & Härtel published his Scholander-Programme / Hundert
Lieder / für eine Sing-stimme / mit Begleitung von / Laute (Guitarre) oder
Klavier in 10 volumes.

In my opinion Scholander's importance in the lute movement in Germany should
not be underestimated.

Luedtke could also have mentioned Josef Bacher's Lehrwerk fûr die
doppelchörige Laute. 1. Band: Lautenfibel. Bärenreiter 1236. Kassel, which
probably was published in 1938 or before that. My copy of this little volume
(which does not seem to have been followed by other volumes) comes from the
Handbibliothek des Hermann Moeck Verlages and has a manuscript signature and
the date 1938, which means that it was published before Giesbert's more
important Schule fuer die Barocklaute which was published in 1939/1940.
Bacher's work was based on historical methods and he is using the French
lute tablature system. 

Joachim Luedtke's article hopefully will inspire more research into this
interesting period which unfortunately also meant that many very old lutes
were changed and partly destroyed to fit this new movement.

Best wishes

Kenneth Sparr
Stromstigen 25
S-149 51 Nynashamn
SWEDEN

Telephone: +46-852015561
www.tabulatura.com
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]




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[LUTE] Re: New Boy

[Nancy Carlin]

The LSA is now selling that Catalupi CD for $15 + $2.50 Shipping. Anyone 
who is interested can buy it by sending me a check in US dollars drawn on a 
US band for $17.50 or can send or fax me credit card info - address below, 
the fax is 925/680-2582. This is part of our project to make wonderful, if 
slightly obscure CDs more available. We also have about 14 other CDs that 
we are selling (see the ad in the last Quarterly). Other newly added CDs 
include a CD by Chris Henriksen of early guitar music played on guitars 
from the collection of the Boston Museum, Burgundian Chansons by Asteria 
(they won the Early Music America competition last year) and Cathy 
Liddell's CD on French baroque 11 course music.

Nancy Carlin
LSA Administrator



>  This was the accepted mode of thinking regarding
>the instrument a few years ago, but recent research
>seems to suggest that many theorbos were often, if not
>even usually, double-strung like lutes.  (Diego
>Cantalupe plays one of these on his new Kapsperger,
>Libro Terzo CD.)  This in turn suggests a no-nails
>approach, (Piccinini, notwithstanding) offering the
>would-be lutenist little incentive aside from the
>guitar-like tuning to start here.

Nancy Carlin Associates
P.O. Box 6499
Concord, CA 94524  USA
phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582
web site - www.nancycarlinassociates.com

Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA
web site - http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org

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[LUTE] Re: New Boy's Ungrateful Response to Free Advice (Re: New Boy wants lute)

[Howard Posner]

> It is my understanding the different sound of the guitar versus the
> lute is partly because of the double strings,

Not all that big a part.  A single-strung lute will sound like a lute.  
A double-strung theorbo will sound like a theorbo.

> without which defeats the
> purpose. I also think the renaissance lute just looks better, and the
> therobo looks way too big and guitar like.
>
> One problem is, I started off playing the guitar without nails (I used 
> to
> play the piano). Finally I just let them grow out as I was supposed 
> to, and
> the playing is MUCH better with nails (Easier, more versatile, sounds
> better). So the lute is not played with nails? Is this the general 
> rule, or
> an absolute requirement?

Certainly not an absolute requirement.

> Also, I've heard it elsewhere (on the rec.music.classical.guitar 
> newsgroup)
> that the "pakistani" made lutes are horrible (the cheap ones on ebay). 
> How
> do I make sure I dont get stuck with one of these bad ones?

Post a message here asking about it, describing the instrument as best 
you can, particularly what's on the label inside it:   e.g. "Someone's 
selling an 8-course lute here by someone named 'Rutherford,'  but he 
wants $29.95 for it.  Is it worth it?  Is he a Pakistani?"  Someone 
will probably have something useful to say about it.

> If there is so much demand for lutes, why are there relatively few 
> available?

Because there's so much demand. 
  



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[LUTE] Re: New Boy

[cweaver100]

Wow,

I've never heard about the double strung theorbo, and certainly not as the
most common form.  I stand corrected.  I would love to see an article about
that.  I've never seen any iconography or treatise or anything that would
suggest that.  I guess the single string theory is still the accepted mode
of thinking in some corners of the lute world.

The no-nails thing comes as a surprise, too.  I play without nails myself,
but the historical evidence seems to point to continuo playing being done
with nails.  It's not just Piccinini, but also Thomas Mace (who suggests
nails for ensemble music).  I think it was a matter of choice, then as now.

Anyway, now that we know what New Boy wants, we can give up this silly
argument, which I never meant to start anyway.

Charlie



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[LUTE] Re: New Boy's Ungrateful Response to Free Advice (Re: New Boy wants lute)

[cweaver100]

Dear new boy,

Definitely keep the nails if they work for you.  Totally a matter of
choice.

I know of a few good lutes for sale.  Get in touch with Jason Petty:

www.instrumentorium.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

He's relatively cheap but a very good young maker.  I think he has a couple
of 7 or 8 course lutes ready for immediate sale.

Best,
Charlie Weaver



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[LUTE] Re: New Boy's Ungrateful Response to Free Advice (Re: New Boy wants lute)

[Roman Turovsky]

> I want to thank everyone for posting advice. I still am interested in
> getting a lute. I thought I would offer more information.
>
> I do play classical guitar, and can read traditional music notation,
> although I hate sight reading
You might have to learn to love it. Lute repertoire is too large. Guitarists 
tend to limit themselves to  relatively
few memorized pieces.

> What I really want is a renaissance lute ("English Lute"), like the kind
> contemporaneous with Shakespeare, to mostly accompany myself singing, not
> solo playing. I am thinking of songs of Dowland, Campion, etc, of the era.
> I have to object to the advice on getting a 13 course lute or Therobo. 13
> courses is way too many strings to tune, take care of, and keep track of.
Understandable, if unfounded fear.



> As for a Therobo, the problem is I dont want something that similar to the
> guitar. It is my understanding the different sound of the guitar versus 
> the
> lute is partly because of the double strings, without which defeats the
> purpose. I also think the renaissance lute just looks better, and the
> therobo looks way too big and guitar like.
A heck of a phallic symbol, for sure.


>
> One problem is, I started off playing the guitar without nails (I used to
> play the piano). Finally I just let them grow out as I was supposed to, 
> and
> the playing is MUCH better with nails (Easier, more versatile, sounds
> better). So the lute is not played with nails? Is this the general rule, 
> or
> an absolute requirement?
It is not a requirement, but an overwhelming preference. Some people prefer 
no-nails on guitar as well. And some think that nail soung is ugly.


>
> Will be very difficult switch back and forth if one instrument requires
> nails and the other doesn't?
Some cut their nails in a way that accomodates both.



>
> Also, I've heard it elsewhere (on the rec.music.classical.guitar 
> newsgroup)
> that the "pakistani" made lutes are horrible (the cheap ones on ebay). How
> do I make sure I dont get stuck with one of these bad ones?
Very simple: don't buy one. Get one from a reputable builder.


> Are they really
> that bad?
Yes.

> If there is so much demand for lutes, why are there relatively few
> available?
Too much demand.



> (One luthier told me the waiting period was 18 months. .  ) And
> why does the "early music shop" always have an unlimited amount of
> suspiciously cheap lutes? (see ebay)
No demand for substandard merchadise, maybe?
RT
==
http://polyhymnion.org

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[LUTE] Re: New Boy's Ungrateful Response to Free Advice (Re: New Boy wants lute)

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Friday, October 7, 2005 7:29 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: New Boy's Ungrateful Response to Free Advice (Re: New Boy 
wants lute)

> Get in touch with Jason Petty: He's relatively cheap but a very good 
> young maker.  I think he has a couple of 7 or 8 course lutes ready for 
> immediate sale.

Here's another relatively cheaper, relative newcomer:


Best,
Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: New Boy's Ungrateful Response to Free Advice (Re: New Boy wants lute)

[Greg Silverman]

EUGENE BRAIG IV wrote:

>- Original Message -
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Date: Friday, October 7, 2005 7:29 pm
>Subject: [LUTE] Re: New Boy's Ungrateful Response to Free Advice (Re: New Boy 
>wants lute)
>
>  
>
>>Get in touch with Jason Petty: He's relatively cheap but a very good 
>>young maker.  I think he has a couple of 7 or 8 course lutes ready for 
>>immediate sale.
>>
>>
>
>Here's another relatively cheaper, relative newcomer:
>
>
>Best,
>Eugene
>
>  
>


Aye. He's good and I am seriously considering having him build a 
13-course lute sometime soon. Last I checked, his waiting list was
about 10 months.  I was lucky when I got my current axe from him, as it 
was his personal instrument that he was selling, so the only waiting 
period was in the shipping from San Paolo.

How's your mandola working out these days (sans the top that's too thick)?

Greg--



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[LUTE] Re: New Boy's Ungrateful Response to Free Advice (Re: New Boy wants lute)

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: Greg Silverman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Friday, October 7, 2005 10:27 pm
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: New Boy's Ungrateful Response to Free Advice (Re: New 
Boy wants lute)
 
> How's your mandola working out these days (sans the top that's too 
> thick)?

Greetings Greg,

Still marvelous fun, still marvelously loud, and still a little too light in 
bass response because of the soundboard very slightly on the thick side.  I 
have some guitar (I'll try to work some early guitar into the mix) and modern 
mandolin gigs pending, so I'm still not finding much time to play with it.

Best,
Eugene



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