[LUTE] Re: Lynda Sayce

[LGS-Europe]

> crazy. Besides, the audience will not hear it anyway. It is mostly the bad
> players, worrying about correct theorboes.
> ;-)
> PP

:-)

Dank je Paul, heel goed!

And thank you to Benjamoin for a very worthwhile article. Food for thoughts!

David - enjoying his small theorbo (74cm?) in concerts, plains, trains
and automobiles





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[LUTE] Re: Guillaume & Charles Tessier Editions ?

[Gordon J. Callon]

New Grove lists two modern editions, one as a dissertation (McBride: 
The Chansons of Charles Tessier: a Transcription and Commentary 
diss., Queen’s U., Belfast, 1977), the other as a collected works (F. 
Dobbins, ed.: Les oeuvres complètes de Charles Tessier. Paris, 1999). 
Both are specialized, so may be tricky to find in a library. 
I checked the obvious (Oxford OLIS, Library of Congress, Indiana U.) 
and came up empty.

For facsimiles, send Steve at OMI (Old Manuscripts & Incunabula) an e-
mail message and he probably will know of anything that is available.
http://www.omifacsimiles.com/

If you have access to EEBO (Early English Books Online), one book 
published in London, 1597, is available there to download as PDF 
files. Either the whole thing can be downloaded in one big file (6.2 
Mb), or individual selected pages.

[Note EEBO seems to use ActiveX, so only EI and other selected 
browsers seem to work. Many browsers do not work.]

Just putTessier, Charlesin the EEBO author search engine.

The book there is:

Tessier, Charles, b. ca. 1550.
Le premier liure de chansons & airs de court tant enfrançois qu'en 
italien & en gascon a 4. & 5. parties: mis en musique par le sieur 
Carles [sic] Tessier, musitien de la chambre du Roy., Imprimes a 
Londres : Par Thomas Este, imprimeur ordinaire. 1597. Les presents 
liures se treuuent ches Edouard Blount libraire demeurant au 
cimitiere de Sainct Paul deuant la gran porte du north dudit S. Paul 
a Londres,  1597.

GJC

On 30 Oct 2005 at 20:27, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Dear Lutenetters,
> 
> I am looking for facsimile or modern editions of songs by Guillaume &
> Charles Tessier. Have been published (aside from Dowlands Musical
> Banquet) ?
> 
> best wishes
> Mark Wheeler
> 
> --
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Guillaume & Charles Tessier Editions ?

[Phalese]

Dear Lutenetters,

I am looking for facsimile or modern editions of songs by Guillaume & Charles 
Tessier. Have been published (aside from Dowlands Musical Banquet) ?

best wishes
Mark Wheeler

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[LUTE] Re: Lynda Sayce

[chriswilke]

Paul, et all,


 I can offer up some of my own experience. 
Earlier this year I played theorbo in Handel's
Ariodante at the local conservatory, which was
probably the largests ensemble I've performed with.   

Since I was coming to rehearsals straight from
teaching all day, it was logistically impossible to
bring my own istrument - a big Italian theorbo with
99cm fingerboard.  (Lets please leave aside for the
moment whether this was the appropriate instrument to
use in Handel or not.)  I was able to use the school's
theorbo, however, which has a string length in the
upper 70's.

 Before one rehearsal, I had the chance to go home
and gather my own instrument, so I thought I'd compare
the two.  The verdict, based on my own judgement and
that of the archlute player sitting next to me: The
big instrument had a really great bass sound when the
diapasons were involved, but the sounds of the chords
got swallowed up even when only a few
instruments/voices were involved.  Meanwhile, the
smaller instrument didn't have as much boom down in
the low range, but it had more overall projection and
"punch" that could be heard even when the orchestra
played.  I have to to honestly say that the longer
fingerboard was a real disadvantage: the strings need
to be so thin at that length that it's very difficult
to grab into them much.  

As Lynda correctly points out, big chords can not
feasibly be played on an instrument of this size.  So
you end up playing little dinky chords that sound -
well, dinky.  And composers seem to conspire to put
accidentals right in the middle of the most effective
diapason runs, forcing you to resort to plinky-plinky
range.  Frustrating!


Chris   

--- Paul Pleijsier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> What a waste of words, to talk about historically
> correct theorboes.
> First learn to phrase, learn to improvise, learn to
> love the music etc (see
> Ariels mail) , only then can you start to think
> about getting a historically
> correct theorbo. Many professionals are using a
> small one, they're not
> crazy. Besides, the audience will not hear it
> anyway. It is mostly the bad
> players, worrying about correct theorboes.
> ;-)
> PP
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Benjamin Narvey"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: "Lutelist" 
> Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 12:55 PM
> Subject: [LUTE] Lynda Sayce
> 
> 
> > Dear Thomas,
> >
> > I think you are right that modern pros sometimes
> have to make compromises
> > (usually with regards to stringing), but I think
> you may have
> > misunderstood
> > what Lynda means regarding theorbo size.  I refer
> to the following quote
> > from
> > your message - I realise you may have been
> expressing your views here and
> > not
> > Lynda's, so I apologise if I am getting this
> wrong.  I thought it would be
> > best to clarify Lynda's views for the lutenet in
> light of recent
> > conversations
> > I have had with her on the subject.  Anyway, here
> goes:
> >
> > "I am sure this is mainly for practical reasons.
> And as Linda Sayes has
> > pointed out in the  recent lute news we have a
> "concert life" now which
> > produces somehow not historic reasoned effects
> (relating to instruments
> > which
> > never existed or have never been used in the way
> they are nowadays and
> > stringing habits which never existed). One could
> say: "Then stay at home
> > and
> > play for yourself" but how realistic is that? We
> need professionals (who
> > need
> > to make compromises to earn their living) and we
> need players playing for
> > the
> > public to "promote" our instrument. It's important
> to recognize what is
> > not
> > historic and to have the ideal of recreating HI
> Performances but we also
> > need
> > to accept what's possible."
> >
> > Lynda and I were speaking last week - with regards
> to a HUGE full-size
> > reproduction of the Nuremberg Schelle that I
> should be picking upnext week
> > (which is fully 2m (sic) in length!) - and rather
> than being on the side
> > of
> > compromise regarding theorbo size, she rather
> thinks that lute players
> > just
> > have to get used to the idea of schlepping the
> huge beasts about and
> > learning
> > how to play on them.  Making scaled-down toy
> versions of historic
> > instruments
> > that are based on the current size restrictions of
> British Airways is
> > *not*
> > the solution that she advocates.  She often makes
> an analogy with bass
> > players, saying that even though their size makes
> them harder to play on
> > than
> > a cello, and even though they are more dificult to
> carry around, people
> > still
> > learn the bass!  Indeed, she knows more than
> anyone about theorboes,
> > having
> > recently finished her PhD specifically on the
> topic, and having done
> > extensive
> > field research. Her findings are that *anything*
> with a stopped string
> > length
> > of less than 85cm is historically *extremely*
> exceptional; and for those
> > few
> > inst

[LUTE] Re: student lutes (Re: Who wants to sell "New Boy" a lute?)

[guy_and_liz Smith]

What Thomas said. Playability is probably the most important factor in a 
student instrument. My first guitar was cheap and had a warped neck and such a 
high action that it's a wonder that I stuck with it long enough to trade it in 
on a playable instrument (an Aria). My first lute was one of those German heavy 
lutes (Steiner), with a guitar style bridge and string spacing. One of the 
first things I learned from Pat O'Brian at my first lute seminar was that 
trying to learn thumb-under technique on that instrument was going to be a 
struggle. The spacing at the bridge was way too close. Nothing wrong with the 
quality of the instrument, but its design was getting in the way of my attempt 
to learn good technique. I got a Larry Brown eight-course with a more suitably 
designed bridge and things got a lot easier.

Moral of the story: make your starter lute is not going to work against you. Go 
too cheap and you are likely end up with something that has a warped neck and a 
horrible action (or other design or construction flaws) and is likely make 
learning the instrument difficult and frustrating (not that it's an easy 
instrument to learn in any case).

That said, it's hardly necessary to start with a concert-quality instrument. I 
have played some of Ed Greenhood's student instruments and they are quite 
playable with good sound and very reasonably priced (he used to sell them for 
around $1K, but that was a couple of years ago). I'd have no hesitation in 
recommending them to beginners.
  - Original Message - 
  From: Thomas Schall 
  To: Lutelist 
  Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 1:42 AM
  Subject: [LUTE] Re: student lutes (Re: Who wants to sell "New Boy" a lute?)


  Dear Gary,

  generally I would agree - it's better to start playing on a lute of lesser 
  quality than never to start. 
  But: There is a quality ("Pakistani-Lutes") which makes it extremely 
difficult 
  to fall in love with the lute and it's music because except the shape there 
  is not much of a lute on them. 
  And: There are builders (Faria, Busato, Lechner and there is also a czech 
  builder - sorry if I might forgot someone) who offer instruments at a 
  reasonable price and of - as far as I have heard - great quality. 
  So: I think a starter with limited financial resources first should look at 
  these makers and we as community should recommend them. If they are still to 
  expensive a look at used instruments could help - If none of these 
  instruments should be affordable then finally a cheap instrument of 
  questionable craftsmanship could be a solution. But then we need to give 
  advice to a correct adjustment of the instrument. 
  We are a small community and we should help everybody to get the best 
possible 
  entry into the lute-world!

  All the best
  Thomas

  Am Sonntag, 30. Oktober 2005 08:11 schrieb gary digman:

  > I find the let-them-eat-cake attitude of some for those in lesser economic
  > circumstances somewhat elitist. One can't pry dollar bills, or euros, from
  > one's wallet that simply aren't there. Sure, it would be most desireable to
  > have the instrument of one's dream at hand. but there's no reason not to
  > start now with what is at hand while working to realize the ideal. John
  > Dowland's first lute was probably not of the same quality as his last.
  > Time's a-wastin'.
  >
  > Gary
  >
  >
  >
  > To get on or off this list see list information at
  > 
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

  -- 
  Thomas Schall
  Niederhofheimer Weg 3
  D-65843 Sulzbach
  06196/74519
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  ab 15.7. neue Adresse:
  Wiesentalstrasse 41
  CH-8355 Aadorf
  ++41 (0) 52 365 00 04

  http://www.lautenist.de
  http://www.lautenist.de/bduo/
  http://www.lautenist.de/gitarre/
  http://www.tslaute.de/weiss/



--

[LUTE] Re: Thysius Lute Quartets The Lute Calendar

[Taco Walstra]

On Sunday 30 October 2005 14:43, you wrote:
Just as small addition:
The Dutch lute society will publish within a few months the complete Thysius 
manuscript in facsimile for (we hope) less than 100 euros for lute society 
members (all societies). The edition in a 3 cloth volume-cassette + CD will 
contain ~900 pages. I will add more on this later, because a few things are 
unclear yet. 
This is just a small addition to the email by Stefan. Please note that a 
modern edition is of course much easier to read when playing these quartets.
Taco

> New Edition:
> Die Lautenquartette aus dem
> Thysius-Lautenbuch
>
> Herausgegeben von
> Wolfgang Meyer und Ekkehard Schulze-Kurz
>
> 13 Pieces
> Part books, french tablature
>
> Price: $ 48.00 / EUR 38.00
>
>
>
> REMINDER:
>
> One more month to go for the introduction price of
>
> The Lute Calendar
>
> 365 lute pieces selected and edited from 49 original sources
> by
> Stefan Lundgren
>
> Until 1.12.2005: $ 99.00 / EUR 75.00
> Thereafter: $ 130.00 / EUR 99.00
>
>
>
> Send your order to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> For more information: visit www.luteonline.de



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[LUTE] Re: Lynda Sayce

[Paul Pleijsier]

Eugene wrote:

>> ...It is mostly the bad players, worrying about correct theorboes.

> That generalization is just as silly as the other (I did catch your little 
> smiley).

The smiley should cover all of my message...

Regards,
PP 



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[LUTE] Re: Lynda Sayce

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: Paul Pleijsier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sunday, October 30, 2005 8:28 am
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lynda Sayce

> What a waste of words, to talk about historically correct theorboes.


What's the harm in trying to shed light on and recreate extant period 
instruments?  The effort is invaluable, whether or not theorbists--good, bad, 
or otherwise--elect to get on board.  How much variatioin from period examples 
is acceptable before you've deviated enough to no longer have a theorbo?  If 
one builds a theorbo based wholly on looks without reference to measurements 
and materials from extant theorbos that were active when therobos were active 
in new music, is it a theorbo?  Whatever a musician elects, he/she should 
acknowledge how it likely differs from the historic and enjoy without 
belittling the efforts of others.


> ...It is mostly the bad players, worrying about correct theorboes.


That generalization is just as silly as the other (I did catch your little 
smiley).

Best,
Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: student lutes (Re: Who wants to sell "New Boy" a lute?)

[Stephan . Olbertz]

Am 30 Oct 2005 um 12:02 hat Thomas Schall geschrieben:

> And as Linda Sayes has pointed out in the  recent lute 
> news...

Dear Thomas,

are you speaking of the October issue? I should have given my new address to 
the 
LS...

Stephan



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[LUTE] Thysius Lute Quartets The Lute Calendar

[SLundgrenLaute]

New Edition:
Die Lautenquartette aus dem
Thysius-Lautenbuch

Herausgegeben von
Wolfgang Meyer und Ekkehard Schulze-Kurz

13 Pieces
Part books, french tablature

Price: $ 48.00 / EUR 38.00



REMINDER:

One more month to go for the introduction price of

The Lute Calendar

365 lute pieces selected and edited from 49 original sources
by
Stefan Lundgren

Until 1.12.2005: $ 99.00 / EUR 75.00
Thereafter: $ 130.00 / EUR 99.00



Send your order to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

For more information: visit www.luteonline.de


-- 
Barer Str. 70, D-80799 München
Tel.: +49 (0)89 / 272 24 07
WebSite: http://www.luteonline.de



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[LUTE] Re: Lynda Sayce

[Paul Pleijsier]

What a waste of words, to talk about historically correct theorboes.
First learn to phrase, learn to improvise, learn to love the music etc (see
Ariels mail) , only then can you start to think about getting a historically
correct theorbo. Many professionals are using a small one, they're not
crazy. Besides, the audience will not hear it anyway. It is mostly the bad
players, worrying about correct theorboes.
;-)
PP




- Original Message - 
From: "Benjamin Narvey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Lutelist" 
Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 12:55 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Lynda Sayce


> Dear Thomas,
>
> I think you are right that modern pros sometimes have to make compromises
> (usually with regards to stringing), but I think you may have
> misunderstood
> what Lynda means regarding theorbo size.  I refer to the following quote
> from
> your message - I realise you may have been expressing your views here and
> not
> Lynda's, so I apologise if I am getting this wrong.  I thought it would be
> best to clarify Lynda's views for the lutenet in light of recent
> conversations
> I have had with her on the subject.  Anyway, here goes:
>
> "I am sure this is mainly for practical reasons. And as Linda Sayes has
> pointed out in the  recent lute news we have a "concert life" now which
> produces somehow not historic reasoned effects (relating to instruments
> which
> never existed or have never been used in the way they are nowadays and
> stringing habits which never existed). One could say: "Then stay at home
> and
> play for yourself" but how realistic is that? We need professionals (who
> need
> to make compromises to earn their living) and we need players playing for
> the
> public to "promote" our instrument. It's important to recognize what is
> not
> historic and to have the ideal of recreating HI Performances but we also
> need
> to accept what's possible."
>
> Lynda and I were speaking last week - with regards to a HUGE full-size
> reproduction of the Nuremberg Schelle that I should be picking upnext week
> (which is fully 2m (sic) in length!) - and rather than being on the side
> of
> compromise regarding theorbo size, she rather thinks that lute players
> just
> have to get used to the idea of schlepping the huge beasts about and
> learning
> how to play on them.  Making scaled-down toy versions of historic
> instruments
> that are based on the current size restrictions of British Airways is
> *not*
> the solution that she advocates.  She often makes an analogy with bass
> players, saying that even though their size makes them harder to play on
> than
> a cello, and even though they are more dificult to carry around, people
> still
> learn the bass!  Indeed, she knows more than anyone about theorboes,
> having
> recently finished her PhD specifically on the topic, and having done
> extensive
> field research. Her findings are that *anything* with a stopped string
> length
> of less than 85cm is historically *extremely* exceptional; and for those
> few
> instruments that are so small, there is no evidence that they were used
> for
> continuo but rather for solo pieces (i.e. the French "theorbe de pieces"),
> or
> that they were meant to be in D (like the said theorbe de pieces), or
> Campion
> style with the 2nd course up.  She develops these ideas very nicely in the
> article below which I have taken the liberty of pasting on.
>
> All best,
>
> Benjamin
>
> Theorbo sizes: the uncomfortable truth
>
> One of the questions I am frequently asked is how large a theorbo one
> should
> buy - or rather, to be more accurate, how small a theorbo one can get away
> with! Modern theorbo players in the majority are marked by their extreme
> reluctance to use instruments of historical size, preferring instead to
> commission inauthentically small instruments. There are two main - and
> perfectly understandable - reasons for this. One is that larger
> instruments
> are more tiring to play than smaller ones, especially for solo music. The
> other is that the extreme length of a large theorbo makes it very
> difficult to
> travel with, especially by air.
>
>
> I will address those specific difficulties later, but first I must be
> blunt
> here: many of the so-called theorbos which modern makers are producing
> (often
> at the request of theorbo players) are in no way historical. Many have too
> many strings on the neck, and thus a larger chromatic range and a weaker
> bass
> register than their historical counterparts. The overwhelming majority of
> surviving theorbos have only six stopped courses, which is enough to play
> all
> of the surviving Italian and French solo theorbo music. Many modern
> theorbos
> are too small in all of their dimensions, but especially in their string
> lengths. As a result of this, a great number can only work in theorbo
> tuning
> if they are strung with overtly modern strings, such as fluoro-carbon
> trebles
> and overspun nylon diapasons. The small size of the instruments r

[LUTE] Re: Gut strings and nails- Dalla Casa

[Ed Durbrow]

I seem to recall an article in Early Music that was a contemporary  
description of string making. My memory may be letting me down but  
perhaps someone else could confirm it.

On Oct 30, 2005, at 7:08 PM, Thomas Schall wrote:

> We still don't have an idea of
> how the strings were produced.

Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/



--

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[LUTE] Re: Lynda Sayce

[Thomas Schall]

Dear Benjamin,

of course you are right that I am not quoting Lynda's views. I regret if I 
shouldn't be clear about this. 
I never intended to say she would share the idea to use small "wrongly" strung 
instruments. She simply mentions a phenomenon to which I am referring in the 
context of modern concert life. She says much more very interesting in the 
article which is a pleasure to read.

BTW: I don't play theorbo just a marvelous liuto attiorbato strung in nylgut 
with the top course in nylon. 
For my purposes it's a great continuo instrument which also works for the solo 
repertoire: I'm usually playing in smaller settings (traverso, Cello and lute 
or voice and lute) and you'll have much more possibilities with this smaller 
instrument although I am aware that sometimes a theorbo would be more 
appropriate (if not the money :-( ). But you know: I'm driving a Mini-Cooper 
and would need a different car when I would buy a theorbo :-) 
(although our baroque lute duo drove to Sweden with 4 Baroque lutes and 2 
renaissance lutes and the usual luggage - all in the Mini. And back I had 
even one more lute to get into the car).

And thank you very much for posting this interesting article! 

Best wishes
Thomas

Am Sonntag, 30. Oktober 2005 12:55 schrieb Benjamin Narvey:
> Dear Thomas,
>
> I think you are right that modern pros sometimes have to make compromises
> (usually with regards to stringing), but I think you may have misunderstood
> what Lynda means regarding theorbo size.  I refer to the following quote
> from your message - I realise you may have been expressing your views here
> and not Lynda's, so I apologise if I am getting this wrong.  I thought it
> would be best to clarify Lynda's views for the lutenet in light of recent
> conversations I have had with her on the subject.  
>

-- 
Thomas Schall
Niederhofheimer Weg 3
D-65843 Sulzbach
06196/74519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

ab 15.7. neue Adresse:
Wiesentalstrasse 41
CH-8355 Aadorf
++41 (0) 52 365 00 04

http://www.lautenist.de
http://www.lautenist.de/bduo/
http://www.lautenist.de/gitarre/
http://www.tslaute.de/weiss/



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Lynda Sayce

[Benjamin Narvey]

Dear Thomas,

I think you are right that modern pros sometimes have to make compromises 
(usually with regards to stringing), but I think you may have misunderstood 
what Lynda means regarding theorbo size.  I refer to the following quote from 
your message - I realise you may have been expressing your views here and not 
Lynda's, so I apologise if I am getting this wrong.  I thought it would be 
best to clarify Lynda's views for the lutenet in light of recent conversations 
I have had with her on the subject.  Anyway, here goes:

"I am sure this is mainly for practical reasons. And as Linda Sayes has 
pointed out in the  recent lute news we have a "concert life" now which 
produces somehow not historic reasoned effects (relating to instruments which 
never existed or have never been used in the way they are nowadays and 
stringing habits which never existed). One could say: "Then stay at home and 
play for yourself" but how realistic is that? We need professionals (who need 
to make compromises to earn their living) and we need players playing for the 
public to "promote" our instrument. It's important to recognize what is not 
historic and to have the ideal of recreating HI Performances but we also need 
to accept what's possible."
  
Lynda and I were speaking last week - with regards to a HUGE full-size 
reproduction of the Nuremberg Schelle that I should be picking upnext week 
(which is fully 2m (sic) in length!) - and rather than being on the side of 
compromise regarding theorbo size, she rather thinks that lute players just 
have to get used to the idea of schlepping the huge beasts about and learning 
how to play on them.  Making scaled-down toy versions of historic instruments 
that are based on the current size restrictions of British Airways is *not* 
the solution that she advocates.  She often makes an analogy with bass 
players, saying that even though their size makes them harder to play on than 
a cello, and even though they are more dificult to carry around, people still 
learn the bass!  Indeed, she knows more than anyone about theorboes, having 
recently finished her PhD specifically on the topic, and having done extensive 
field research. Her findings are that *anything* with a stopped string length 
of less than 85cm is historically *extremely* exceptional; and for those few 
instruments that are so small, there is no evidence that they were used for 
continuo but rather for solo pieces (i.e. the French "theorbe de pieces"), or 
that they were meant to be in D (like the said theorbe de pieces), or Campion 
style with the 2nd course up.  She develops these ideas very nicely in the 
article below which I have taken the liberty of pasting on.

All best,

Benjamin

Theorbo sizes: the uncomfortable truth

One of the questions I am frequently asked is how large a theorbo one should 
buy - or rather, to be more accurate, how small a theorbo one can get away 
with! Modern theorbo players in the majority are marked by their extreme 
reluctance to use instruments of historical size, preferring instead to 
commission inauthentically small instruments. There are two main - and 
perfectly understandable - reasons for this. One is that larger instruments 
are more tiring to play than smaller ones, especially for solo music. The 
other is that the extreme length of a large theorbo makes it very difficult to 
travel with, especially by air.


I will address those specific difficulties later, but first I must be blunt 
here: many of the so-called theorbos which modern makers are producing (often 
at the request of theorbo players) are in no way historical. Many have too 
many strings on the neck, and thus a larger chromatic range and a weaker bass 
register than their historical counterparts. The overwhelming majority of 
surviving theorbos have only six stopped courses, which is enough to play all 
of the surviving Italian and French solo theorbo music. Many modern theorbos 
are too small in all of their dimensions, but especially in their string 
lengths. As a result of this, a great number can only work in theorbo tuning 
if they are strung with overtly modern strings, such as fluoro-carbon trebles 
and overspun nylon diapasons. The small size of the instruments results in a 
small volume, which is usually compensated for by increasing the string 
tension and playing with nails, for which there is at best, very limited 
historical evidence. Needless to say, the sound is far from that of a large, 
historically accurate theorbo.


Historically, theorbos came in several sizes, almost all of them larger than 
the average modern instrument. The largest are instruments by Buchenberg and 
Graill, which have stopped string lengths of 98-99 cm. Not far behind are 
instruments by Giorgio Sellas at 96cm, Magno Dieffopruchar at 93cm, and Alban, 
Schelle, Buchenberg and many others, in the high 80s. These are not the 
exceptions but the norm: surviving old theorbos which are significantly 
smaller are extremely 

[LUTE] Re: Victoria in BL Add 29246 / 29247 / 31992

[Arthur Ness]

I had a note from Gordon Callon.  The Tenbury manuscripts are now in the 
Bodleian Library at Oxford.  

David says that there are definitely pieces by Victoria in the Paston Lute 
Books.  Paston is the subject of a number of papers at a Byrd conference at 
Duke University some time in the near future. Paston was a recusant.  Here is 
the URL (see the abstracts):

http://www.duke.edu/music/events/byrd.html

ajn
  On 28 Oct 2005 at 16:33, Arthur Ness wrote:

  > Dear David,
  > 
  > These are three of the Edward Paston Lute Books. There are five books
  > (see end).  That is where I thought you might find works by Victoria. 
  > But I looked through my list and could not find him.  Perhaps he is
  > there, but not identified.  Paston must have had Spanish connections. 
  > Some of the rubrics are in Spanish, and the book uses Italian
  > tablature.
  > 
  > Now for British music manuscripts, there is an important series that
  > has microfilms of almost everything.  Many good libraries will have
  > the series, including (I would expect) the Gemeentemuseum.  The three
  > you mention are also in the LSA Microfilm Library.  Here is the title
  > of the series:
  > 
  > For 24246-7:
  >   Music manuscripts from the great English
  >   collections, Series IV, Part 2. Polyphonic
  >   music before c.1640, Section B (beginning).
  >   Brighton, Sussex : Harvester Microform,
  >   1983. Reels 20-29 + 1 guide (77 p.)
  > 
  > 
  > For 31992:
  >   Music manuscripts from the great English
  >   collections, Series IV, Part 2. Polyphonic
  >   music before c.1640, Section B (continued).
  >   Brighton, Sussex : Harvester Microform,
  >   1983. Reels 30-37 + 1 guide (77 p.)
  > 
  >  Thanks for searching HOLLIS Catalog
  >  (http://holliscatalog.harvard.edu/)
  > 
  > 
  > These are the EDWARD PASTON LUTE BOOKS:
  > London, British Library, Add. 29246, Add. 29247, Add. 31992
  > London, Royal College of Music, Ms 1964
  > Tenbury, St. Michael's, Ms. 340
  > 
  > Anne Burns:  You may wish to update the LSA Catalogue with the name of
  > the manuscripts.
  > 
  > ajn
  >   - Original Message - 
  >   From: LGS-Europe 
  >   To: Lute net 
  >   Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 7:09 AM
  >   Subject: [LUTE] Victoria in BL Add 29246 / 29247 / 31992
  > 
  > 
  > 
  >   Does anybody have copies to share of these manuscripts? I'm
  >   interested in the pages with music by Victoria arranged for voice
  >   and lute/vihuela. In the MSS only the lute/vihuela parts are given.
  >   Juan Carlos Rivera used these manuscripts for his cd with counter
  >   Carlos Mena (Harmonia Mundi). Great disc!
  > 
  >   David
  > 
  > 
  > 
  >   *
  >   David van Ooijen
  >   Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  >   Http://home.planet.nl/~d.v.ooijen/
  >   *
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  >   To get on or off this list see list information at
  >   http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  > 
  > --



--

[LUTE] Re: Gut strings and nails- Dalla Casa

[Thomas Schall]

Dear Donatella,

it seems one of the mysteries to be solved in the future are those of string 
making. Mimmo is doing a great Job as well as manufacturer as as researcher 
but I think I won't be wrong if I would say: We still don't have an idea of 
how the strings were produced. We just need to accept the fact that there 
were players using nails playing gut strings - conclusion could be that our 
string material is not of the same quality than that they had.

Dear Danyel,
could you provide an email, a postal adress and/or telephone number of Nick 
Baldock. I've already heard of him and that he would produce great strings 
but lost the contact details. Possibly others on this list would be 
interested, too.

Best wishes
Thomas

Am Sonntag, 30. Oktober 2005 00:01 schrieben Sie:
> Hi Donatella,
>
> that is very interesting.
> As for gut strings surviving nails, we should bear in mind that prior to
> the 1940s all kinds of instruments were played with gut strings, including
> Milanese mandolins, the oud etc.; I don't know what gut strings you use,
> but the ones provided by Nick Baldock survive years of strong plucking with
> a stiff eagle feather on a daily basis. the third course on my Timurid lute
> has been on ever since I got the instrument 3 years ago and hasn't even
> frailed yet. I think gut is actually a very strong material.
> Is the story about Francesco not more like a legend?
>
> Best wishes,
> danyel
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Donatella Galletti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2005 11:26 PM
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Gut strings and nails- Dalla Casa
>
> > Dear All,
> >
> > I'm just going through the book by Dalla  Casa ( BTW, some pieces are in
> > tablature on my web site, perhaps anybody out there is willing to add a
> > piece? ), and there is a portrait of him playing his "arciliuto francese"
> > ( which is in fact an archlute).
> > Cristoforetti in his introduction of the SPES edition says the strings
>
> were
>
> > made of gut , nevertheless Dalla Casa played with long nails, as it can
> > be seen in the picture. Doesn't a gut string get worn out in two days,
> > when played like that?  Were  gut strings different from ours? Any
> > suggestions?
> >
> > Francesco da Milano used to play with long silver "nails", and this is
>
> also
>
> > something which exceeds my understanding of gut resistance..
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Donatella
> >
> >
> > http://web.tiscali.it/awebd
> >
> >
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

-- 
Thomas Schall
Niederhofheimer Weg 3
D-65843 Sulzbach
06196/74519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

ab 15.7. neue Adresse:
Wiesentalstrasse 41
CH-8355 Aadorf
++41 (0) 52 365 00 04

http://www.lautenist.de
http://www.lautenist.de/bduo/
http://www.lautenist.de/gitarre/
http://www.tslaute.de/weiss/

[LUTE] Re: Ariel and Adorno

[ariel abramovich]

>
>
>
>
> Dear All,
> Hey, wasn't Adorno the guy who declared in the 1930s that jazz was a total
> dead-end and entirely trivial?
> Cheers,
> Jim
>

Maybe, and a whole bunch of interesting things as well...




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[LUTE] Re: student lutes (Re: Who wants to sell "New Boy" a lute?)

[Thomas Schall]

Dear Danyel,

this time you are right. Vance's  argument doesn't apply. 
But: As Ariel pointed out first the musical ideas and solutions count. That's 
true for every instrument. What's the appropriate "toolkit" to produce your 
musical ideas is IMHO a mixture of ideology, practical reasons and personal 
taste.

Speaking personally I woud prefer gut for the sound it produces. But there are 
practical problems when using gut and we do have nylgut as perfect 
compromise. So I am mainly using nylgut - and am happy with them. 
And: The "toolkit" should be seen as a whole I guess. There are instruments 
which doesn't sound with gut or nylgut or the action is not appropriate for 
these thicker strings and you would need to make changes to the action. But 
everything works fine when using "plastics". Some of our great players still 
are playing nylons (Hoppy for example). I am sure this is mainly for 
practical reasons. And as Linda Sayes has pointed out in the  recent lute 
news we have a "concert life" now which produces somehow not historic 
reasoned effects (relating to instruments which never existed or have never 
been used in the way they are nowadays and stringing habits which never 
existed). 
One could say: "Then stay at home and play for yourself" but how realistic is 
that? We need professionals (who need to make compromises to earn their 
living) and we need players playing for the public to "promote" our 
instrument. It's important to recognize what is not historic and to have the 
ideal of recreating HI Performances but we also need to accept what's 
possible.

 (finally there seems to be some gut strings around now which solve practical 
problems which prevented me from using them).

Best 
Thomas

Am Sonntag, 30. Oktober 2005 00:07 schrieben Sie:
> Yeah, but if you do NOT play like you are wearing boxing gloves it actually
> makes a hell of a difference!
> Is there any indication why people using gut strings should be playing like
> they are wearing boxing gloves and the plastic fetish group doesn't? I
> could as well state, if you play with plastic strings it will sound like
> you are playing with plastic strings. Great reasoning.
>
> Best,
> danyel
>
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Vance Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "lute list" 
> Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2005 7:22 PM
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: student lutes (Re: Who wants to sell "New Boy" a lute?)
>
> > Amen:  It does not matter if you use Nylon, Gut or Graphite and have the
> > most brilliantly constructed Lute on the planet, if you play like you are
> > wearing boxing gloves it will sound like you are wearing boxing gloves.
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

-- 
Thomas Schall
Niederhofheimer Weg 3
D-65843 Sulzbach
06196/74519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

ab 15.7. neue Adresse:
Wiesentalstrasse 41
CH-8355 Aadorf
++41 (0) 52 365 00 04

http://www.lautenist.de
http://www.lautenist.de/bduo/
http://www.lautenist.de/gitarre/
http://www.tslaute.de/weiss/

[LUTE] Re: student lutes (Re: Who wants to sell "New Boy" a lute?)

[Thomas Schall]

Dear Gary,

generally I would agree - it's better to start playing on a lute of lesser 
quality than never to start. 
But: There is a quality ("Pakistani-Lutes") which makes it extremely difficult 
to fall in love with the lute and it's music because except the shape there 
is not much of a lute on them. 
And: There are builders (Faria, Busato, Lechner and there is also a czech 
builder - sorry if I might forgot someone) who offer instruments at a 
reasonable price and of - as far as I have heard - great quality. 
So: I think a starter with limited financial resources first should look at 
these makers and we as community should recommend them. If they are still to 
expensive a look at used instruments could help - If none of these 
instruments should be affordable then finally a cheap instrument of 
questionable craftsmanship could be a solution. But then we need to give 
advice to a correct adjustment of the instrument. 
We are a small community and we should help everybody to get the best possible 
entry into the lute-world!

All the best
Thomas

Am Sonntag, 30. Oktober 2005 08:11 schrieb gary digman:

> I find the let-them-eat-cake attitude of some for those in lesser economic
> circumstances somewhat elitist. One can't pry dollar bills, or euros, from
> one's wallet that simply aren't there. Sure, it would be most desireable to
> have the instrument of one's dream at hand. but there's no reason not to
> start now with what is at hand while working to realize the ideal. John
> Dowland's first lute was probably not of the same quality as his last.
> Time's a-wastin'.
>
> Gary
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

-- 
Thomas Schall
Niederhofheimer Weg 3
D-65843 Sulzbach
06196/74519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

ab 15.7. neue Adresse:
Wiesentalstrasse 41
CH-8355 Aadorf
++41 (0) 52 365 00 04

http://www.lautenist.de
http://www.lautenist.de/bduo/
http://www.lautenist.de/gitarre/
http://www.tslaute.de/weiss/

[LUTE] Re: Gut strings and nails- Dalla Casa

[LGS-Europe]

> made of gut , nevertheless Dalla Casa played with long nails, as it can be
> seen in the picture. Doesn't a gut string get worn out in two days, when

No, the strings get a bit rough, but when you take care to keep your nails 
smooth it's not a big problem. You might want to use a varnished, or oiled, 
first string though.
I played gut with nails for a while. But I felt it defeated the point of 
using gut, so I cut my nails. Nails make a bright sound, loud and 
conveniently sharp when needed, good for continuo in large groups. In the 
end I found I can make a loud and sharp sound with fingers on gut as well, 
although quite differently: closer to the bridge, wrist further away from 
the strings, less 'gentle' string-attack. Very effective in larger groups, 
too.

David 




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[LUTE] Re: student lutes (Re: Who wants to sell "New Boy" a lute?)

[gary digman]

My advice to "New Boy" would be to acquire the best qaulity lute he can
afford and begin. If funds are limited scour music stores that feature folk
instruments or sell instruments on consignment or used instruments. One of
my lutes is an Ian Harwood 7 course that I found in such a store on
consignment for $250. No one knew what it was. It's not the greatest lute
ever made, but it is a lute and is reasonably playable after I replaced the
nut. I call it my beach lute. I strung it completely in gut. The point is to
stop thinking and "jawing" about it and get playing. Time's a-wastin'.

I find the let-them-eat-cake attitude of some for those in lesser economic
circumstances somewhat elitist. One can't pry dollar bills, or euros, from
one's wallet that simply aren't there. Sure, it would be most desireable to
have the instrument of one's dream at hand. but there's no reason not to
start now with what is at hand while working to realize the ideal. John
Dowland's first lute was probably not of the same quality as his last.
Time's a-wastin'.

Gary



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