[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
if the 7th or 9th is being supplied in the upper parts, isn't that the place where I should *not* be playing it? I for one leave them out in that case. My rule is: Play it the easiest possible way. If the upper voice has it, why should I double it? Surely the mere presence of a note in the violin part is not necessarily a reason to avoid it in the continuo. You don't avoid thirds and fifths for that reason. In certain cases, I do avoid major thirds for that very reason. With suspensions in particular. Sounds better IMHO when the soloist resolves. On the other hand, if the accompanied voice does not provide thirds figured in the bass line, continuo will make sure to supply them. fewer figures don't mean you must omit the sevenths and ninths Depends on the date of the music, I'd say. I for one can't imagine chords like (or progressions of, for that matter) 7/9-dominants or 5/6-subdominants _freely_ added in a piece of, say, Heinrich Schuetz. -- Best, Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Weiss
A photostat is available in the LSA Library. For the LSA Library, see http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/publications/LSA_Lib_Catalog.txt Also digitalized (*.PDF) files are now available through ProQuest's Dissertation Abstracts page. If you have subscription access through a public or university library, the dissertation can be downloaded for free. DAS's dissertation # AAT 7725730 By the way, the title is often misspelled. It is The LAte Works of ... NOT The LUte works ... You would probably also want to look at Doug's edition (London MS, only), _**Silvius KLeopold Weiss: Sämtliche Werke für Laute/Complete Works for Lute**_ (C.F.Peters). ==ajn - Original Message - From: Howard Posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2006 9:12 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Weiss On Sunday, Oct 29, 2006, at 14:28 America/Los_Angeles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am writing an undergraduate paper for a music literature class on Italian and French baroque styles in Weiss's works. I am aware of Dr. Douglas Alton Smith's doctoral dissertation on Weiss's late sonatas but it is unpublished and I am having much trouble contacting him/finding it. Additionally, are there other sources that any of you are familiar with that address the aforementioned topic? Maybe there's someone on the list who can tell you whether the LSA microfilm library has it. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Lully's Ritournelle Italienne now has has fingerings...
Dear lutenists, Now my arrangement of Lully's Ritournelle Italienne (from the ballet Le bourgeois gentilhomme, for 10-courser) has also the fingerings that I promised. The original piece is actually a trio-sonata, where the two top voices cross here and there. The melody of my arr. is the highest voice at any moment. I have also added the fingerings that suit to my fingers. The piece is to be found in my Lully page: http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/Lully/Marche/ Enjoy! :-) All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dalza
A handy place to look is the antiquarian deallers on the Karlsruhe listing of libraries (last column). I saw four or five copies of Le Luth II. And some of Le Luth I. Note there are two editions of I, theopriginal and a revised corrected edition. http://www.ubka.uni-karlsruhe.de/hylib/en/kvk.html ajn - Original Message - From: Denys Stephens [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 8:57 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Dalza Dear Manolo, Thanks for that very helpful thought. That set of papers has been on my 'ought to have' list for years. Whilst some publications and items of interest to lute players are reasonably easy to get hold of, I often find that certain things require extraordinary fortitude and persistence to succeed in getting them. I tried the CNRS website today just to see if I could find anything about this book with no success - so Bernd's comments about CNRS don't surprise me in the least. But I would like to read that paper of Paul O'Dette's, so I will try an alternative route to get a copy. Thanks best wishes, Denys - Original Message - From: Manolo Laguillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 9:09 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Dalza Hi, Denys, Bernd, all, do you know the contribution by Paul O'Dette to the 1980 Colloquium 'La lute et sa musique', published by the french CNRS? Title: Quelques observations sur l'execution de la musique de danse de Dalza. I could suggest sending photocopies, but that would a pity, because I have the book, and it is worth reading it complete. It is not expensive, and packed with information (articles by Diana Poulton, A. Bailes, D.A. Smith, M. Vaccaro, J. Jacquot, Tim Crawford, Monique Rollin, A.J. Ness, D. Benkö, Michael Lowe, Howard M. Brown, among others). You can order it directly, through the web page of the Centre Nationale de la Recherche Scientifique (Paris). Saludos from Barcelona, Manolo Laguillo Denys Stephens wrote: Dear Bernd, Thanks! I think your explanation is very probably the correct one. As you say, much depends on which interpretation of the rules one chooses. Your version, I think, corresponds to what Ornithoparchus / Dowland would have thought of as the 'modern' interpretation, i.e. the C with a stroke through it plus a numeral 3 alongside it means a 'diminution' of measure lenghts to a third of their previous lengths. In this case, by changing time from triple to duple and reducing the duration of a bar from three minims to one minim, there is a perceived doubling in the speed of the piece. QUESTION: Doesn't the underlying tactus stay the same? And is this why decorative running passages became known as 'diminutions'? We really need to study the use of time indications in Dalza and the other Petrucci lute books to get a better understanding of this. For example, taking the Pavana alla Venetiana beginning on f. 9r: The saltarello beginning on f.9v has a 'C3' as its time signature which corresponds to perfect time. Dalza / Petrucci give the piece three minims per bar using the special triple-time flags. The piva which follows, beginning on f.10v, has the 'C with a stroke through it and numeral 3' sign, and here the bar lengths are halved to three crotchets per bar, again using the triple time flags. So the rhythm flags suggest a halving of note values, but the 'time signature' suggests that the measure length in the piva should be one third of that in the saltarello? I'm not sure! Contemporary dance practice could probably throw some light on this, although the interpretation of dance manuals is perhaps just as fraught as lute tablature. I spent quite a lot of time studying some aspects of Dalza a few years ago and was amazed that despite the book having been available in facsimile since 1980, and Dalza being perhaps the most popular lute composer of his era, the book is still full of unsolved mysteries. Best wishes, Denys - Original Message - From: Bernd Haegemann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Denys Stephens [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 5:26 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Dalza Dear Denys all, this to Dalza's recercar on f. 7, the piece starts in triple time with each measure having a value of a semibreve. The first three measures indeed have three minims each. yes Over the page on f.7v the time changes with the sign of a broken circle with a vertical line through it and a numeral 3 set against it. The broken circle indicates imperfect (i.e. duple) time. The tables in the Micrologus suggest that the vertical line indicates a 'diminution' and the numeral 3 indicates that the diminution is of a factor of 3. The definition of a diminution is a little confusing: apparently 'the ancients' considered it to consist of reducing the length of a measure by a third, whilst 'the moderns' consider it to be reducing
[LUTE] Re: Weiss
The dissertation is also available at the following libraries: UNIV OF PENNSYLVANIA STANFORD UNIV LIBR DUKE UNIV LIBR WESTERN WASHINGTON UNIV UNIV OF CALGARY LIBR If you are at a college or university in the States, it is probably available to you via interlibrary loan. Ask your reference librarian. Also, try looking at EG Baron's 'Study of the Lute.' He has an interesting section where he criticizes the French style. You might want to look at studies by W. Rave, D. Buch, G. Torres, and D. Ledbetter, all of whom have written articles on French baroque lute style. Jorge On 10/30/06 8:12 AM, Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A photostat is available in the LSA Library. For the LSA Library, see http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/publications/LSA_Lib_Catalog.txt Also digitalized (*.PDF) files are now available through ProQuest's Dissertation Abstracts page. If you have subscription access through a public or university library, the dissertation can be downloaded for free. DAS's dissertation # AAT 7725730 By the way, the title is often misspelled. It is The LAte Works of ... NOT The LUte works ... You would probably also want to look at Doug's edition (London MS, only), _**Silvius KLeopold Weiss: Sämtliche Werke für Laute/Complete Works for Lute**_ (C.F.Peters). ==ajn - Original Message - From: Howard Posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2006 9:12 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Weiss On Sunday, Oct 29, 2006, at 14:28 America/Los_Angeles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am writing an undergraduate paper for a music literature class on Italian and French baroque styles in Weiss's works. I am aware of Dr. Douglas Alton Smith's doctoral dissertation on Weiss's late sonatas but it is unpublished and I am having much trouble contacting him/finding it. Additionally, are there other sources that any of you are familiar with that address the aforementioned topic? Maybe there's someone on the list who can tell you whether the LSA microfilm library has it. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Weiss
A photostat is available in the LSA Library. For the LSA Library, see http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/publications/LSA_Lib_Catalog.txt [0614] SMITH, DOUGLAS ALTON. 1977. _The Lute Sonatas of Silvius Leopold Weiss._ Ph.D., Stanford University. [P $22.00] So the fee of $22 is for the loan of the document and not a photocopy to keep? That is to cover postage, I guess? Must be pretty hefty. Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Weiss
A photostat is available in the LSA Library. For the LSA Library, see http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/publications/LSA_Lib_Catalog.txt [0614] SMITH, DOUGLAS ALTON. 1977. _The Lute Sonatas of Silvius Leopold Weiss._ Ph.D., Stanford University. [P $22.00] So the fee of $22 is for the loan of the document and not a photocopy to keep? That is to cover postage, I guess? Must be pretty hefty. It is density, you know.. RT Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
On Oct 29, 2006, at 6:48 PM, Howard Posner wrote: Under the bass notes are lots of indications for dominant 7th and 9th chords probably not all dominants, to be nitpicky... Minor seventh chords? I thought they would have been rarely used back then. I was assuming that a chord with a seventh added should take a major third. I think the level of figuration reflects an attitude by the composer, original publisher, or editor about how much information is useful. So any time we see a figured bass, we are looking a part that could have been written by the composer, the publisher, the editor, or maybe even the last person to have used that sheet music? I have one more question: where do I have to go to find editions of sonatas, arias, canzone etc. that contain figured bass parts, and not some ridiculous piano or (worse yet) guitar accompaniment part? David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.rastallmusic.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Blackmore, was : A normal voyce ?
In einer eMail vom 29.10.2006 17:31:41 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: And so does Karamazov. And I prefer EK's brynza to ALK's wensleydale. RT Someone told me once that Paul O'Dette original name was Paul Audet. Not sure or very interested if this is true, but if he had changed his name to Odettski then I am sure Roman would like his playing :) Mark In fact, the most memorable performance he had was in an item called Czarina's Dumpsky. RT == http://polyhymnion.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
On Monday, Oct 30, 2006, at 06:43 America/Los_Angeles, David Rastall wrote: Minor seventh chords?- I thought they would have been rarely used back then.- I was assuming that a chord with a seventh added should take a major third. A dominant seventh is, strictly speaking, a seventh chord on the dominant. Excuse the lecture if you already know about this, but there is a set of defaults known as the rule of the octave, which says that in the absence of figures you play a root position chord on the all the diatonic notes of the scale except the third and seventh (some sources also include the sixth) which take a first inversion (i.e. the figure 6), and all raised tones also take a 6. So in C major, D, will be minor, and so will E and A if they are root position and not 6 chords (i.e. e minor and a minor and not C major and F major), which will be the case if they have a seven under them. So in this passage from a Telemann recorder sonata in C: E A D G C 7 7 7 7 You get four sevenths in a row, and three of them are minor sevenths. There are similar passages in Corelli, I'm sure. So any time we see a figured bass, we are looking a part that could have been written by the composer, the publisher, the editor, or maybe even the last person to have used that sheet music? All are possible, and you probably listed them in decreasing order of probability. And it can get a lot more complicated than that. If you're lucky, the modern editor will tell you all about it. For your immediate purposes, it's not critical; if you're learning how to play a 7-6 suspension, it doesn't really matter who wrote it. --I have one more question:--where do I have to go to find editions of sonatas, arias, canzone etc. that contain figured bass parts, and not some ridiculous piano or (worse yet) guitar accompaniment part? Why not start here: http://icking-music-archive.org There's probably lots of good stuff in Gordon Callon's online archive, for which I don't seem to have the URL. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
On Monday, Oct 30, 2006, at 11:07 America/Los_Angeles, Mathias Rösel wrote: fewer figures don't mean you must omit the sevenths and ninths Depends on the date of the music, I'd say. I for one can't imagine chords like (or progressions of, for that matter) 7/9-dominants or 5/6-subdominants _freely_ added in a piece of, say, Heinrich Schuetz. We were talking about what to do when those notes are in the melody parts. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Capirola's Balletto, question 2.
Thanks for the prompt help in finding scores for Capirola's Balletto. I had several versions, any one of which would have been fine. I assume the name Balletto is 16th century Italian for dance. Did Capirola have a specific dance-type in mind (like waltz, tango, pavan, ...), and intend the music to be actually incident to dances? Or did he instead just think the piece reminiscent of dancing in general, like a symphonic movement labeled minuet? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Capirola's Balletto, question 2.
I asked that question of someone knowledgeable several years (I can't recall who at the moment but it might have been Frederico Marincola), and they said that Balletto as used in the Capirola is just a generic term for a dance, not a particular dance form. Guy - Original Message - From: Herbert Wardmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edumailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 12:14 PM Subject: [LUTE] Capirola's Balletto, question 2. Thanks for the prompt help in finding scores for Capirola's Balletto. I had several versions, any one of which would have been fine. I assume the name Balletto is 16th century Italian for dance. Did Capirola have a specific dance-type in mind (like waltz, tango, pavan, ...), and intend the music to be actually incident to dances? Or did he instead just think the piece reminiscent of dancing in general, like a symphonic movement labeled minuet? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.htmlhttp://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Capirola's Balletto, question 2.
Dear Herbert, There is a bit more to be said about Capirola's 'Balleto.' The entry in the index to the manuscript actually reads 'Ti (erased letters) baleto da balar bello.' On folio 19v above the piece itself is the heading 'Ti' also followed by partially erased letters. The reason for the erasure of part of the word in both places seems to be a mystery. Otto Gombosi in his study included in his 1955 modern edition of the manuscript speculates that the erased word is 'Tientalora.' The Capirola piece is similar to the 'Tentalora' tune found in other early sources. This is further supported by a lute piece entitled 'Tiente Alora' which is to be found on f.11v of Munich Ms. 1511b which is very similar to, but less sophisticated than Capirola's piece. (A modern edition of that piece can be found in the Lute Society volume '58 Very Easy Pieces for Renaissance Lute, which includes a fine recording of the music by Jacob Heringman).' So the term 'baleto' in the Capirola Ms. seems to be a generic term of which the Tientalora is a specific instance. I'm not sure if a 'baleto' is a song, or a dance, or both. Whilst 'ballo' is a general term for social gatherings involving dance at this time, a 'ballata' can be a song, or more specifically a verse form used, I think, in the Frottola repertoire. It's worth remembering that the 'dance-song' was seemingly very popular in Venice at around this time, so the distinctions between songs and dances could be blurred. Capirola's 'baleto' is highly likely to be his own version of a popular dance / song tune that was well known in his day. Best wishes, Denys - Original Message - From: Herbert Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 8:14 PM Subject: [LUTE] Capirola's Balletto, question 2. Thanks for the prompt help in finding scores for Capirola's Balletto. I had several versions, any one of which would have been fine. I assume the name Balletto is 16th century Italian for dance. Did Capirola have a specific dance-type in mind (like waltz, tango, pavan, ...), and intend the music to be actually incident to dances? Or did he instead just think the piece reminiscent of dancing in general, like a symphonic movement labeled minuet? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.13.17/505 - Release Date: 27/10/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.13.17/505 - Release Date: 27/10/2006
