[LUTE] Re: Quietness of playing (was: magnesium)
Dancing may or may not be noisy. 16th C images of dancing usually show one or two quiet instruments (lutes, harps, etc) with one or two couples dancing; and louder instuments (wind bands, violins, bagpipes etc), sometimes larger groups, for larger numbers of dancers. Several 16thC dance masters comment on quiet dancing as a virtue (Caroso, Arbeau). At least one 15thC dance master (Guglielmo/Giovanni Ambrosio) suggests a single lute as a suitable instrument for private dance practice. I have found a single lute to be pleasant and sufficient for dancing most of the renaissance repertoire, providing there are few dancers, and they refrain from stomping. A single lute even works for canaries, where stomping is essential, if dancers refrain from making as much noise as possible, and instead treat the noise of their feet as percussion, moderating the volume to blend well with the rest of the music. best wishes, Katherine Davies On 19/09/2007, David Rastall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Sep 18, 2007, at 5:51 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >>> My point remains: name one piece of solo lute music ever composed > >>> for a concert-hall. > > > > Entire collections of music for Dance exist with the music given in > > lute > > tablature. > > My point still remains... ;-) Sorry, couldn't resist. > > > Dance is noisy. One couple dancing isnt too bad, and there were > > situations where that would have happened; > > Absolutely, as in the home: in England anyway, until the > Restoration. But even in the home there would most probably have > been numerous instruments involved in domestic music-making. > > > but in a ball one has dozens of > > people dancing, talking loudly, and generally having a good time. > > Perhaps > > an orchestra of lutes theorbos etc would work, > > I imagine they would have used louder instruments, such as rebecs, or > fiddles to play the dance tunes wouldn't they? I agree, a lone lute > is not going to hold its own in a room full of dancers. > > > but what then of the art > > necessary to make the dances needing variations work? (eg, > > galliardes, > > where the music needs variations to encourage the dancers to > > explore more > > than the simple cinc-pas). > > Consorts? > > I don't know if dances in lute tablature were supposed to be danced > to or not. A lone player can still capture the essence of a pavan, > galliard, courante etc. while playing it as a solo piece. > > David R > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: magnesium
Henk, Sorry to ask, but what this magnesium does on your fingers? Do you play the lute with nails and this magnesium? > > > At that time I played the > > baroque lute without nails and I needed something to roughen my > > finger tops and came up with the following process: First I wash my > > hands with a detergent and then I use a block of magnesium to cover > > my finger tops including the thumb. I experienced and think (for > > myself) that playing then the lute is 'amazing'. Since I am a > > professional clas! > > sical guitarist as well I started again using nails. And using the > > nails playing the lute with the above mentioned 'magnesium' > > procedure is again amazing! (volume, accurate, stable, etc.) > > > > Has anyone experience with this procedure? And does anyone know > > what Smith was secretly doing in his pocket? And if someone tries > > this way of playing, I am curious for his or her findings. > > > > Greetings, > > > > Henk Pakker > > > > The Netherlands > > > > -- > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > --
[LUTE] Re: Quietness of playing (was: magnesium)
On Sep 18, 2007, at 5:51 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> My point remains: name one piece of solo lute music ever composed >>> for a concert-hall. > > Entire collections of music for Dance exist with the music given in > lute > tablature. My point still remains... ;-) Sorry, couldn't resist. > Dance is noisy. One couple dancing isnt too bad, and there were > situations where that would have happened; Absolutely, as in the home: in England anyway, until the Restoration. But even in the home there would most probably have been numerous instruments involved in domestic music-making. > but in a ball one has dozens of > people dancing, talking loudly, and generally having a good time. > Perhaps > an orchestra of lutes theorbos etc would work, I imagine they would have used louder instruments, such as rebecs, or fiddles to play the dance tunes wouldn't they? I agree, a lone lute is not going to hold its own in a room full of dancers. > but what then of the art > necessary to make the dances needing variations work? (eg, > galliardes, > where the music needs variations to encourage the dancers to > explore more > than the simple cinc-pas). Consorts? I don't know if dances in lute tablature were supposed to be danced to or not. A lone player can still capture the essence of a pavan, galliard, courante etc. while playing it as a solo piece. David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Quietness of playing (was: magnesium)
>> My point remains: name one piece of solo lute music ever composed >> for a concert-hall. Entire collections of music for Dance exist with the music given in lute tablature. Dance is noisy. One couple dancing isnt too bad, and there were situations where that would have happened; but in a ball one has dozens of people dancing, talking loudly, and generally having a good time. Perhaps an orchestra of lutes theorbos etc would work, but what then of the art necessary to make the dances needing variations work? (eg, galliardes, where the music needs variations to encourage the dancers to explore more than the simple cinc-pas). -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Quietness of playing (was: magnesium)
Could lutes made for outdoor use have been built differently from chamber lutes? Perhaps, if they did once exist, they would have been prone to damage, and may not have survived. They also could have been less ornate and so of less value, and relatively easily discarded. Here in France, Eric Bellocq organizes an outdoor spectacle (spectacle de rue) in which he accompanies a juggler from "Chant des balles", and almost juggles with his lutes. I have not actually seem them together, but he told me he needed a very well structured lute, with a great deal of projection, and I think these are made for him by Maurice Ottiger in Switzerland http://chantdeballes.com/presseouestfrance13112001.html regards Anthony Le 18 sept. 07 à 21:01, David Rastall a écrit : > On Sep 18, 2007, at 1:34 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Yes, but what about all the descriptions and paintings >> of lutes being played _outside_ ... with ensembles? >> Where these guys essentially just playing "air lute"? > > My point remains: name one piece of solo lute music ever composed > for a concert-hall.Obviously I can't second-guess the intentions > of any composers, but if they came from an age when there weren't any > concert halls it's not difficult to imagine that their music was not > intended to be heard in one. > > Stating the obvious here, but nevertheless: whether or not lute > music actually works in a concert hall depends on the temperament of > the player, the willingness of the audience to adapt to a quiet > instrument and/or the accoustics in the hall. > > As for playing outside, I don't know the answer to that. Mauro > Giuliani was said to have performed his concertos for guitar and > strings outside on occasion. How could anybody possibly have heard > him? I don't know. > >> I have a hunch that they might have played with an >> aggressive approach and tone - much like an >> unamplified flamenco or folk guitarist - that we would >> simply find unacceptable today in a professional >> lutenist. > > I don't think I've ever read any descriptions, or seen any paintings, > of lutenists playing outside to concert audiences. There are plenty > of depictions of 16th, 17th and 18thC musicians playing outdoors for > one another; in fact, I bet we've all done that at one time or > another. My earliest experiences of lute playing were outdoor > events: "lute-hoots" organized by my teacher at that time, and > consisting of many singers, luters etc. We never had any problem > hearing each other. Of course, this was in a place (Topanga Canyon, > CA) where there was very little ambient noise. > >> If so, an insteresting point to consider is >> how much of this "rock 'n' roll" lute technique may >> have carried over into solo works performed in the >> chamber. > > In the 17th or 18th century? I imagine there was a time for raucous > madcap playing, and a time for extremely elegant playing. > > David R > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Quietness of playing (was: magnesium)
Everyone has raised good points on the topic of audibility on hearing lutes in performance settings. One thing, many, many lutenists used the "table", where leaning the edge of a lute on a table amplified the sound. This topic has previously been discussed, and Chris Morongiello gave a talk on this topic, along with demonstrations, at the LSA festival in Cleveland, 2006. He pointed out, and proved, that this was done, and it is effective as well. ed At 03:01 PM 9/18/2007 -0400, David Rastall wrote: >On Sep 18, 2007, at 1:34 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Yes, but what about all the descriptions and paintings > > of lutes being played _outside_ ... with ensembles? > > Where these guys essentially just playing "air lute"? > >My point remains: name one piece of solo lute music ever composed >for a concert-hall.Obviously I can't second-guess the intentions >of any composers, but if they came from an age when there weren't any >concert halls it's not difficult to imagine that their music was not >intended to be heard in one. > >Stating the obvious here, but nevertheless: whether or not lute >music actually works in a concert hall depends on the temperament of >the player, the willingness of the audience to adapt to a quiet >instrument and/or the accoustics in the hall. > >As for playing outside, I don't know the answer to that. Mauro >Giuliani was said to have performed his concertos for guitar and >strings outside on occasion. How could anybody possibly have heard >him? I don't know. > > > I have a hunch that they might have played with an > > aggressive approach and tone - much like an > > unamplified flamenco or folk guitarist - that we would > > simply find unacceptable today in a professional > > lutenist. > >I don't think I've ever read any descriptions, or seen any paintings, >of lutenists playing outside to concert audiences. There are plenty >of depictions of 16th, 17th and 18thC musicians playing outdoors for >one another; in fact, I bet we've all done that at one time or >another. My earliest experiences of lute playing were outdoor >events: "lute-hoots" organized by my teacher at that time, and >consisting of many singers, luters etc. We never had any problem >hearing each other. Of course, this was in a place (Topanga Canyon, >CA) where there was very little ambient noise. > > > If so, an insteresting point to consider is > > how much of this "rock 'n' roll" lute technique may > > have carried over into solo works performed in the > > chamber. > >In the 17th or 18th century? I imagine there was a time for raucous >madcap playing, and a time for extremely elegant playing. > >David R >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > >-- > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.22/1013 - Release Date: >9/17/2007 1:29 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Quietness of playing (was: magnesium)
On Sep 18, 2007, at 1:34 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Yes, but what about all the descriptions and paintings > of lutes being played _outside_ ... with ensembles? > Where these guys essentially just playing "air lute"? My point remains: name one piece of solo lute music ever composed for a concert-hall.Obviously I can't second-guess the intentions of any composers, but if they came from an age when there weren't any concert halls it's not difficult to imagine that their music was not intended to be heard in one. Stating the obvious here, but nevertheless: whether or not lute music actually works in a concert hall depends on the temperament of the player, the willingness of the audience to adapt to a quiet instrument and/or the accoustics in the hall. As for playing outside, I don't know the answer to that. Mauro Giuliani was said to have performed his concertos for guitar and strings outside on occasion. How could anybody possibly have heard him? I don't know. > I have a hunch that they might have played with an > aggressive approach and tone - much like an > unamplified flamenco or folk guitarist - that we would > simply find unacceptable today in a professional > lutenist. I don't think I've ever read any descriptions, or seen any paintings, of lutenists playing outside to concert audiences. There are plenty of depictions of 16th, 17th and 18thC musicians playing outdoors for one another; in fact, I bet we've all done that at one time or another. My earliest experiences of lute playing were outdoor events: "lute-hoots" organized by my teacher at that time, and consisting of many singers, luters etc. We never had any problem hearing each other. Of course, this was in a place (Topanga Canyon, CA) where there was very little ambient noise. > If so, an insteresting point to consider is > how much of this "rock 'n' roll" lute technique may > have carried over into solo works performed in the > chamber. In the 17th or 18th century? I imagine there was a time for raucous madcap playing, and a time for extremely elegant playing. David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Magnesium
I agree with Arto: lute playing could not have been so quiet in the 16th and 17th centuries...let alone in the baroque area. I like Sterling's humor very much, because he could be right..? But could anyone refer to my original question about the use of magnesium? Henk - Original Message - From: "sterling price" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Arto Wikla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 8:40 PM Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Quietness of playing (was: magnesium) > Well first of all he plays over the rose. And he stops > the basses so fast that one can't hear them. > Sterling > > > --- Arto Wikla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> On Tuesday 18 September 2007 15:21, henk wrote: >> > .[..] I went to a concert [...] given by Hopkinson >> > Smith [...]. Although I was sitting in the third >> row I >> > could almost hear nothing of what he was playing >> [...] >> >> I have the same experience of nearly silence in >> Hopkinson Smith's >> concert. That time it was a renaissance lute. As >> beautiful as it may >> be, lute playing could not have been so quiet in the >> 16th and 17th >> centuries... >> >> Opinions of that? >> >> All the best, >> >> Arto >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > > > > > > Got a little couch potato? > Check out fun summer activities for kids. > http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.21/1012 - Release Date: > 16-9-2007 18:32 > >
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Quietness of playing (was: magnesium)
Well first of all he plays over the rose. And he stops the basses so fast that one can't hear them. Sterling --- Arto Wikla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tuesday 18 September 2007 15:21, henk wrote: > > .[..] I went to a concert [...] given by Hopkinson > > Smith [...]. Although I was sitting in the third > row I > > could almost hear nothing of what he was playing > [...] > > I have the same experience of nearly silence in > Hopkinson Smith's > concert. That time it was a renaissance lute. As > beautiful as it may > be, lute playing could not have been so quiet in the > 16th and 17th > centuries... > > Opinions of that? > > All the best, > > Arto > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz
[LUTE] Re: Quietness of playing (was: magnesium)
David, --- David Rastall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > We > have to keep in mind, though, that most of the solo > music lutenists > play in large concert halls was not originally > intended to be heard > that way. > Yes, but what about all the descriptions and paintings of lutes being played _outside_ ... with ensembles? Where these guys essentially just playing "air lute"? I have a hunch that they might have played with an aggressive approach and tone - much like an unamplified flamenco or folk guitarist - that we would simply find unacceptable today in a professional lutenist. If so, an insteresting point to consider is how much of this "rock 'n' roll" lute technique may have carried over into solo works performed in the chamber. Chris Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: hang 'em high
> In New England, the air tends to have a large amount of water in it, year > round ayup, closah to tha watah one is tha moah moistiah thayah be. > England is also renowned for being cold and damp. Ayup. > a light on inside > the (upright) piano Tis true today, tho one need not use a light bulb (which burns out, attracts flying beasties, and is potential risk of fire should scrap of paper lodge itself on the bulb proper), the same comercial system is useful for grands as well as uprights, and is basically a low watage heating element. Not sure how useful this is during the not uncommon week-long late-july burmuda high. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] chest of ...
On Tue, Sep 18, 2007, David Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > Historical references to a chest of viols or lutes? not able to cite as I write this, but pretty sure the inventories of Henry VIII Rex mention chests in several contexts, including crumhorns and vyals. I suspect that the taking of an inventory involved oneperson who was in charge of the items in question, and who would be familiar witht hem, and another who did the scribing of the list. Unfamiliar words would be set down as they were heard, potentially with a different spellyng each time. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Quietness of playing (was: magnesium)
Dear Arto and Henk I have been told by a lutist, who briefly swapped lutes with him, that Hoppy's lutes do not have the greatest projection. Following the swap, Hoppy had more projection, but his own was somewhat reduced. Perhaps, Hoppy considers this as of no great importance. I recently heard (a year ago) two very contrasting concerts from this point of view, one by Jacob Heringman followed very closely by another by Hoppy, both on Renaissance lutes. Both have a sort of zen presence, but Hoppy has such an interior sound that the listener has to be drawn-in. I would call him the master of silences and of the narrow space between a silence and a whisper. I understand from a guitarist who has followed his master classes that he gives just as much importance to the use of silences, as to the sounds that the lutist or guitarist produces. The contrast with Jacob Heringman is striking. Jacob seems to be holding his lute exactly as an archer would a bow, with his right hand drawn back so as to inscribe a line quite parallel with the floor; the sound seems to be projected outwards like so many arrows. The concentration of those Japanese kyudos archers, who hit their target without ever looking at them, comes to mind. A friend said he appeared to be floating suspended over the line of his music. Looking at Jacob's right-hand shape on the American lute page (at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/download/video/Jacob.avi) reminds me so much of the presumed Il Divino picture, shown on the American lute page (at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/) that I can well believe that his projection is closer to that of the Renaissance masters, than that of Hoppy, but who can tell? Although Jacob's little finger, is usually nearer the rose than that of this Renaissance lutist. (On P27 of Lute News N° 79. we are told, however, that « the famous portrait (...) turns out (...) to have been cut down from a larger picture of a group of musicians» so perhaps not Il Divino, after all) Perhaps, the Rutherford lute that Jacob was using could also be part of the explanation for this greater projection (in spite of, or helped by, the gut diapasons). I am told it is a fabulous instrument; but it is mainly their approach to the performance that is just so different. I enjoyed both, but in a completely complementary fashion. Regards Anthony Le 18 sept. 07 à 15:36, Arto Wikla a écrit : > On Tuesday 18 September 2007 15:21, henk wrote: >> .[..] I went to a concert [...] given by Hopkinson >> Smith [...]. Although I was sitting in the third row I >> could almost hear nothing of what he was playing [...] > > I have the same experience of nearly silence in Hopkinson Smith's > concert. That time it was a renaissance lute. As beautiful as it may > be, lute playing could not have been so quiet in the 16th and 17th > centuries... > > Opinions of that? > > All the best, > > Arto > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: hang 'em high
On Tue, Sep 18, 2007, Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > I have managed to raise humidity levels by filling the bath with hot > water, but that is not a very ecological solution yes, it isnt very green to heat the water before placing it in the tub. In places where a woodstove was the source of heat for a room, a common proceedure is to generally keep a pan or pot of water on the stove, keeping hot water available and raising the RH as well. Sometimes there was coffee in the pot, sometimes just water. One can purchase misting devices, with or without wicks/pads (which can make mold), which will deal with modest homes nicely and greenly. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Quietness of playing (was: magnesium)
On Sep 18, 2007, at 9:36 AM, Arto Wikla wrote: > I have the same experience of nearly silence in Hopkinson Smith's > concert. That time it was a renaissance lute. As beautiful as it may > be, lute playing could not have been so quiet in the 16th and 17th > centuries... > > Opinions of that? It reminds me of the "philosophical" question: if a tree falls in a forest and there's no-one there to hear it, does it really make any "sound"? i.e. is he still a virtuoso if no-one can hear him? :-) :-) Seriously, some players choose the lute because of its quietness, and many performers tend to take the introspective nature of the instrument onto the stage with them, causing the audience to have to strain their ears to hear it. If we're supposed to be giving HIP performances, then presumably the basic sound quality and quantity of lute playing haven't changed all that much since the old days. We have to keep in mind, though, that most of the solo music lutenists play in large concert halls was not originally intended to be heard that way. Actually, I've never had any trouble being able to hear lutenists in concert, albeit I've never heard Hoppy Smith in concert. I do remember sitting in a concert hall watching for fully 25 minutes while the lutenist sat there tuning! I remember clearly that I had no trouble hearing every note of that! DR > All the best, > > Arto > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html [EMAIL PROTECTED] --
[LUTE] Re: hang 'em high
Ray Brohinsky wrote... In New England, the air tends to have a large amount of water in it, year round, but in the heating season (which wraps from early in Fall to late in Spring), cold moist air, drawn into a house and heated, drops in relative humidity. Relative humidity is important because that is what wood responds to. RB. England is also renowned for being cold and damp. Back before the days of central-heating, I remember someone telling me they kept a light on inside the (upright) piano during the winter months. At that time, pianos were kept in the 'front-room' which was 'kept for best' and only used when they had visitors. So, most of the time, the room was rarely heated. Families then generally lived in the back-room. A low wattage (25w - 40w max) bulb would be placed inside, down near the pedals and the rising heat it generated would be sufficient to repel any damp. Most homes now are centrally-heated which bring in different criteria, where most of the rooms reach a warm dry temperature, often for two 3 - 4hour periods each day. The daytime temperature remains moderate, but overnight it falls. Maybe leaving a lamp on overnight near our lutes will keep the temperature fairly constant, thereby reducing the regular contraction and expansion of the woods involved? Just a thought Ron UK To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Quietness of playing (was: magnesium)
VanLennep axes are the problem. RT - Original Message - From: "Arto Wikla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 9:36 AM Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Quietness of playing (was: magnesium) > On Tuesday 18 September 2007 15:21, henk wrote: >> .[..] I went to a concert [...] given by Hopkinson >> Smith [...]. Although I was sitting in the third row I >> could almost hear nothing of what he was playing [...] > > I have the same experience of nearly silence in Hopkinson Smith's > concert. That time it was a renaissance lute. As beautiful as it may > be, lute playing could not have been so quiet in the 16th and 17th > centuries... > > Opinions of that? > > All the best, > > Arto > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > _ Need personalized email and website? Look no further. It's easy with Doteasy $0 Web Hosting! Learn more at www.doteasy.com
[LUTE] Re: hang 'em high
On 9/18/07, Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > In the piano trade, we have the Dampp-chaser. This is a name-brand > > humidity control system designed for pianos > > I will make a search on this damp chaser, but it sounds more as > though it removes humidity, Here it is more a problem of increasing it. > > I imagine this thing will be rather expensive and perhaps large. Do > you have any details? > There is a link off the Dampp-Chaser home page (which is dampp-chaser.com) to http://acousticsaver.com/ This is an oak cabinet with glass display windows and, apparently, a Dampp-Chaser built in. At $5500USD (with options in cabinet wood, whether they crate it or you pick it up uncrated and number of guitars it'll hold, that can rise another $1750!) I'd call that expensive! The AcousticSaver really is the paranoid's approach to displaying an instrument! Ideally, the humidistat will be tuned to the %rel humidity that acoustic guitar maker factories maintain, too. This may or may not be appropriate to lutes. If you have a glassed-cabinet you want to employ, I'm sure you could get something to control its humidity. A Dampp-Chaser for installation in a piano is priced according to the type of piano, upright or grand. The price is different for the two configurations, with the Grand version being more expensive. A piano technician who installs Dampp-chasers can very likely help you choose a custom system, since the individual modules are available to the technician as separate parts. But the point is that a Dampp-Chaser can be applied to a cabinet if you want an ideal resting place for your lute, and the cabinet can have windows like the AcousticSaver does. (And probably won't clash with your other furniture and may not even cost an arm _and_ a leg!) There's a cost-of-installation link on the Dampp-chaser home page. As for increasing humidity, the system is exceedingly good at doing this, in a controlled manner. The humidifier is a warm-element web-type, and can wick a half-gallon reservoir dry in a week when first installed (and the piano is very thirsty!). The humidifier pads need to be replaced every 6 months, and normally engender a $10-15 adder to the price of a semi-annual tuning. (Of course, you don't need your lutes or cabinet tuned by a professional piano technician 8^) There is also an additive (normal humidifier additives are actually corrosive and shouldn't be used on instruments anyway!) which comes in small bottles and lasts a long time, at a half-capfull per reservoir refill. You can get humidify-only or dehumidify-only systems, but to be honest, I'd go whole-hog, simply because, if you're humidify only and the humidity in the enclosure gets too high, there's no way to get it down again without just venting the cabinet and exposing the instruments to very low humidity until it gets back up again to too much. In short, it's going to regulate humidity in the box, not just raise it. (just raising humidity is what the snake did, anyway.) I don't know if Dampp-Chaser is available over seas...ok, the site has links to overseas dealers. Of course, none of this is a _good_ solution on the case-level. The best you can do there is to have a humidity meter in the case, and try to balance between a humidifier (snake or stone) and opening the case to let humidity out and dry air in. Or, if it's too humid, take the snake/stone out! ray To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: magnesium
Hoppy has a problem with keeping his hands warm, and he has a sort of a "heater" that he keeps in his pocket. That is what he is doing keeping his hands warm. ed At 02:21 PM 9/18/2007 +0200, henk wrote: >I want to approach you (baroque) lute players with the following: > >In 2000 or 2001 I went to a concert in Amsterdam given by Hopkinson Smith >(Concertgebouw). Although I was sitting in the third row I could almost >hear nothing of what he was playing and the only alternative was to buy a >CD in the pause or afterwards, which I did not. During the concert Smith >paused several times in between numbers to stick his right hand in the >right pocket of his jacket and left it there for about 1 minute. After >that he continued playing again. I still do not know what his hand was/is >doing there? And I still do not know. Anyhow I started thinking of how and >what and I came up with something. At that time I played the baroque lute >without nails and I needed something to roughen my finger tops and came up >with the following process: First I wash my hands with a detergent and >then I use a block of magnesium to cover my finger tops including the >thumb. I experienced and think (for myself) that playing then the lute is >'amazing'. Since I am a professional clas! > sical guitarist as well I started again using nails. And using the nails > playing the lute with the above mentioned 'magnesium' procedure is again > amazing! (volume, accurate, stable, etc.) > >Has anyone experience with this procedure? And does anyone know what Smith >was secretly doing in his pocket? And if someone tries this way of >playing, I am curious for his or her findings. > >Greetings, > >Henk Pakker > >The Netherlands > >-- > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.22/1013 - Release Date: >9/17/2007 1:29 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Quietness of playing (was: magnesium)
On Tuesday 18 September 2007 15:21, henk wrote: > .[..] I went to a concert [...] given by Hopkinson > Smith [...]. Although I was sitting in the third row I > could almost hear nothing of what he was playing [...] I have the same experience of nearly silence in Hopkinson Smith's concert. That time it was a renaissance lute. As beautiful as it may be, lute playing could not have been so quiet in the 16th and 17th centuries... Opinions of that? All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: magnesium
Henk I also saw Hoppy doing exactly what you describe at a Renaissance lute concert in Paris, but also more mysteriously, he put something in the middle of his right hand and rubbed it in. Of course this could just be part of the Hoppy magic. We all went very quiet and concentrated on the magicians fingers wondering what on earth he would do next. However, just around that time I developed a spot of eczema right in the centre of my right hand, where all the ligaments from the fingers pass. I had to cure this with some sort of cream. I wondered whether this might be caused by the movements of the right hand fingers (although I have no proof of that). The dermatologist said it was possible. If this were so perhaps, Hoppy was using a preventative cure. Well, I haven't answered your question, and I have added one of my own, sorry about that. Regards Anthony Le 18 sept. 07 à 14:21, henk a écrit : > I want to approach you (baroque) lute players with the following: > > In 2000 or 2001 I went to a concert in Amsterdam given by Hopkinson > Smith (Concertgebouw). Although I was sitting in the third row I > could almost hear nothing of what he was playing and the only > alternative was to buy a CD in the pause or afterwards, which I did > not. During the concert Smith paused several times in between > numbers to stick his right hand in the right pocket of his jacket > and left it there for about 1 minute. After that he continued > playing again. I still do not know what his hand was/is doing > there? And I still do not know. Anyhow I started thinking of how > and what and I came up with something. At that time I played the > baroque lute without nails and I needed something to roughen my > finger tops and came up with the following process: First I wash my > hands with a detergent and then I use a block of magnesium to cover > my finger tops including the thumb. I experienced and think (for > myself) that playing then the lute is 'amazing'. Since I am a > professional clas! > sical guitarist as well I started again using nails. And using the > nails playing the lute with the above mentioned 'magnesium' > procedure is again amazing! (volume, accurate, stable, etc.) > > Has anyone experience with this procedure? And does anyone know > what Smith was secretly doing in his pocket? And if someone tries > this way of playing, I am curious for his or her findings. > > Greetings, > > Henk Pakker > > The Netherlands > > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: hang 'em high
Thanks Ray for this detailed explanation. I do, now, understand why coming back to my dry home from the lutemakers relatively humid atmosphere could have caused the initial crack, but also why local rehumidification by a "snake" might have worsened the situation, rather than improve it. Any change local or otherwise), in whatever direction can be a problem. Although the person who advised me to use the snake, has used it on all his lutes, without ill effect. > In the piano trade, we have the Dampp-chaser. This is a name-brand > humidity control system designed for pianos I will make a search on this damp chaser, but it sounds more as though it removes humidity, Here it is more a problem of increasing it. I imagine this thing will be rather expensive and perhaps large. Do you have any details? I remember a lutist years ago telling me he would simply increase the humidity by releasing the steam of a pressure cooker, but I have been told that is not really a good solution. I have managed to raise humidity levels by filling the bath with hot water, but that is not a very ecological solution, unless you actually take a bath, at the same time. Regards Anthony Le 18 sept. 07 à 14:13, Ray Brohinsky a écrit : > I have generally kept out of this discussion, but there are some > things that seem to need saying, all in one place. I can't guarantee > that everything I'm saying here is new information (blame low-quality > short-term memory if it isn't.) > > Humidity is a function of water-content and temperature when we're > talking about air. This means that any discussion of the effects of > humidity on wood needs some basic qualification right from the start. > Where you live (i.e., your climate) has a gigantic effect. If you live > in New England, humidity control is a given. If you live in Arizona, > humidifying an instrument may be utterly fruitless. > > This is because the climate of New England varies, seasonally and > day-to-day, but Arizona is dry pretty much year-round. One thing that > attests to this is the story of a master piano technician who showed > me some of the ropes: he'd lived all his life in Arizona, and tuned > each piano about once a year. When he came to Connecticut, he found > himself tuning similar pianos (there's no such thing as two identical > pianos) as many as four times a year, once for each season. In New > England, the air tends to have a large amount of water in it, year > round, but in the heating season (which wraps from early in Fall to > late in Spring), cold moist air, drawn into a house and heated, drops > in relative humidity. Relative humidity is important because that is > what wood responds to. > > In the piano trade, we have the Dampp-chaser. This is a name-brand > humidity control system designed for pianos (which grew from an idea > the inventer came up with to keep the insides of radios he maintained > in Africa from corroding, and later applied to cedar closets in > Florida.) The system consists of a heater, to drive rel humidity down, > a warm-moist humidifier, to drive rel humidity up, and a humidistat, > to monitor the relative humidity and ensure that it is maintained > within the affected space to a 5%-20% range, regardless of the room > humidity. Up here in CT, adding one of these systems to a > humidity-ravaged piano is like magic: pinblocks tighten up, improving > tuning stability, seasonally-affected-actions even out and can be > adjusted once-and-for-all (all meaning, in this case, for as long as > the owner keeps the system plugged in and water in the reservoir!) > > One technician who was in a position to make some tests reported that > in dead winter, with a pair of humidifiers running in the piano room, > it took about a minute after the humidifiers shut off for the relative > humidity in the room to drop from ~45% to lower than his meter could > measure (around 5%). That is because there is nothing, in a "normal" > room, to stop communication between the air in the room and the air of > the rest of the house. I know I was surprised to find out how quickly > the humidity of a treated space changes when the area around the > enclosure has access to it. > > For upright pianos, the insides are sufficiently enclosed that, as > long as the top is closed, the insides can be regulated well over the > entire space. For grand pianos, with the soundboard exposed at the > bottom side, the space (as much as five inches) between the sound > board and pin block, and the fact that the "box" is habitually open if > the desk is up, it's almost hopeless, but some good comes from closing > off the bottom of the piano with a dense-gauze cloth cover. > > How does this relate to lutes? > > Well, first of all, the surface of a lute can be exposed for short > periods of time (as much as days) to various humidity levels without > the wood automatically assuming that level. If the lute is exposed to > a humidity level significantly different from t
[BAROQUE-LUTE] magnesium
I want to approach you (baroque) lute players with the following: In 2000 or 2001 I went to a concert in Amsterdam given by Hopkinson Smith (Concertgebouw). Although I was sitting in the third row I could almost hear nothing of what he was playing and the only alternative was to buy a CD in the pause or afterwards, which I did not. During the concert Smith paused several times in between numbers to stick his right hand in the right pocket of his jacket and left it there for about 1 minute. After that he continued playing again. I still do not know what his hand was/is doing there? And I still do not know. Anyhow I started thinking of how and what and I came up with something. At that time I played the baroque lute without nails and I needed something to roughen my finger tops and came up with the following process: First I wash my hands with a detergent and then I use a block of magnesium to cover my finger tops including the thumb. I experienced and think (for myself) that playing then the lute is 'amazing'. Since I am a professional clas! sical guitarist as well I started again using nails. And using the nails playing the lute with the above mentioned 'magnesium' procedure is again amazing! (volume, accurate, stable, etc.) Has anyone experience with this procedure? And does anyone know what Smith was secretly doing in his pocket? And if someone tries this way of playing, I am curious for his or her findings. Greetings, Henk Pakker The Netherlands -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: hang 'em high
I have generally kept out of this discussion, but there are some things that seem to need saying, all in one place. I can't guarantee that everything I'm saying here is new information (blame low-quality short-term memory if it isn't.) Humidity is a function of water-content and temperature when we're talking about air. This means that any discussion of the effects of humidity on wood needs some basic qualification right from the start. Where you live (i.e., your climate) has a gigantic effect. If you live in New England, humidity control is a given. If you live in Arizona, humidifying an instrument may be utterly fruitless. This is because the climate of New England varies, seasonally and day-to-day, but Arizona is dry pretty much year-round. One thing that attests to this is the story of a master piano technician who showed me some of the ropes: he'd lived all his life in Arizona, and tuned each piano about once a year. When he came to Connecticut, he found himself tuning similar pianos (there's no such thing as two identical pianos) as many as four times a year, once for each season. In New England, the air tends to have a large amount of water in it, year round, but in the heating season (which wraps from early in Fall to late in Spring), cold moist air, drawn into a house and heated, drops in relative humidity. Relative humidity is important because that is what wood responds to. In the piano trade, we have the Dampp-chaser. This is a name-brand humidity control system designed for pianos (which grew from an idea the inventer came up with to keep the insides of radios he maintained in Africa from corroding, and later applied to cedar closets in Florida.) The system consists of a heater, to drive rel humidity down, a warm-moist humidifier, to drive rel humidity up, and a humidistat, to monitor the relative humidity and ensure that it is maintained within the affected space to a 5%-20% range, regardless of the room humidity. Up here in CT, adding one of these systems to a humidity-ravaged piano is like magic: pinblocks tighten up, improving tuning stability, seasonally-affected-actions even out and can be adjusted once-and-for-all (all meaning, in this case, for as long as the owner keeps the system plugged in and water in the reservoir!) One technician who was in a position to make some tests reported that in dead winter, with a pair of humidifiers running in the piano room, it took about a minute after the humidifiers shut off for the relative humidity in the room to drop from ~45% to lower than his meter could measure (around 5%). That is because there is nothing, in a "normal" room, to stop communication between the air in the room and the air of the rest of the house. I know I was surprised to find out how quickly the humidity of a treated space changes when the area around the enclosure has access to it. For upright pianos, the insides are sufficiently enclosed that, as long as the top is closed, the insides can be regulated well over the entire space. For grand pianos, with the soundboard exposed at the bottom side, the space (as much as five inches) between the sound board and pin block, and the fact that the "box" is habitually open if the desk is up, it's almost hopeless, but some good comes from closing off the bottom of the piano with a dense-gauze cloth cover. How does this relate to lutes? Well, first of all, the surface of a lute can be exposed for short periods of time (as much as days) to various humidity levels without the wood automatically assuming that level. If the lute is exposed to a humidity level significantly different from the starting level in the wood for "enough time", then the wood will shrink or swell, and if the changing dimension is anchored at the ends, will split, crack, bow or warp. I don't know what relative humidity level is maintained in any specific luthier's shop, but it'd be good to find out, and take steps to maintain a lute at that relative humidity. Getting it back to that atmosphere will return the lute very closely to its original condition if it hasn't been too dried out or over-humidified (i.e., if the lute hasn't sustained damage that requires repair.) The wood in a lute is cut to a shape, bonded into the lute, and most often, further shaped. If done well, the result is a balanced system with stresses worked out of it. As long as nothing happens to change the dimensions of an individual part of the lute faster than other parts, things should stay as it was built. The thing that changes wood with the longest-lasting effect is humidity, and the general rule is that cold will make things change but returning the instrument to the original temperature will bring the parts back quickly to their 'original' sizes, but a humidity change affects different parts of an instrument differently (based on composition, shape, etc.) and just restoring the instrument to the same humidity level will not immediately restore everything. Humidity generally gets into
[LUTE] Re: humidity + hang 'em high
Sorry for the typing slips and half formed sentences; it was a little late at night, and I was being called away from my computer (not actually the effect of the wine I was talking about). I hope, nevertheless, you could decipher my meaning. I will try to carry out a systematic test with hygrometer in the case and hygrometer on the wall (taking account of any difference due to the two sensors), and I will report on my findings. This should not be difficult, as you can read the value of both meters from the one on the wall. I have noticed that my gut strings almost always need retuning when I take the lute from the case. Usually, the top strings need tuning up, but about an hour later, I usually have to tune them down again. I don't know whether this shows that the temperature is lower and the humidity higher in the case. Curiously, the bass strings often need to be tuned down, so I don't think this can be the reason. Bass strings, Pistoys and Venice as well as gimped Pistoys, behave slightly differently when compared to lower twist strings, and often need to be retuned in the opposite direction. regards Anthony Le 18 sept. 07 à 00:01, Anthony Hind a écrit : > > Le 17 sept. 07 à 18:49, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> a écrit : > >> On Sun, Sep 16, 2007, Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: >> >>> I don't think it is very easy to generalize, about this sort of >>> thing. What seems to be important, is constant temperature and >>> humidity; and while a case may slightly slow down the speed of a >>> change, it is probably better to have a lute on the wall with the >>> correct temperature and humidity, than a lute in its case in bad >>> conditions. >> >> true, but, note one thing, if a cased lute exists in a room with well >> controled conditions, once the case and the room are in agreement, >> the >> case moderates changes that either dont occur, or are considered >> trivial. >> The case will of course provide some degrere of physical protection >> for >> the lute, keeps it from dust, and acts as a barrier to whatever spore >> molds exist (outside and in). > > Dama > I have to say that I keep my wine in a cellar in cellular dense > polystyrene, but this is because wine can be damaged by small > vibrations as well as penetrating light, and the polystyrene most > certainly does save the wine from some temperature fluctuation. > > However, I have the impression that lute- cases are made mainly to > protect lutes from accidental blows (while carrying them), and the > fact that most are black, shows that they are not designed > specifically to protect the lute much from heat fluctuations due to > sun, even if they may do so to an extent. > > I would not be surprised if the case is made, as it is, more from > tradition than from any serious thought about protecting the > instrument from temperature and humidity fluctuations. Perhaps, > someone could come up one specifically designed forthis purpose > > >> >> It might be an interesting experiemnet to obtain two instruments that >> monitor atmosheric conditions and place one in a case, the other >> next to >> the case; record for a week, and see how the case moderates the >> changes. > > > Well actually, I should be able to tell you that, as I have a > hygrometer+ thermometer device on the wall, and a slave device in the > case. The slave device sends information to the master meter. The > meter rings when the slave goes below a certain pre-set degree of > humidity. > > I can say that the measure is not identical within the case, and on > the wall. Unfortunately, I am whether this is not just a defect of > the meter. There also seems to be a variation when I put the master > and slave side-by-side. I have not tried to see whether the > difference is constant (ie the slave might always read + 10%, or > whatever). > > If I insist on the fact that the case is not a guarantee, it is not > from a doom-prediction, but because I had the unfortunate experience > of finding a crack in the ebony of one my almost new lutes, although > it was in the case; while years ago, I did have a lute on the wall > (but with no ebony veneer) with no ill-effect. > I have still kept the lute in its case, but as the repaired crack > reappeared, even though I used a humidifier (possibly, according to > the lute maker, just because I did use a humidifier), I am much less > confident of the efficiency of this method. > Regards > > Anthony > > >> -- >> Dana Emery >> >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
