[LUTE] Re: dedillo
ha, did you noticed: PoD has a marker on the 7th bar! i need one too! :-) w. Original-Nachricht Datum: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 08:22:46 +0100 Von: Gernot Hilger [EMAIL PROTECTED] An: Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: LuteNet list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: dedillo Zitat von Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Could someone please post the URL so I could watch this? Thank you. http://youtube.com/watch?v=G23_pcCZkZg To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: dedillo
Zitat von Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Could someone please post the URL so I could watch this? Thank you. http://youtube.com/watch?v=G23_pcCZkZg To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: dedillo
On Nov 1, 2007, at 7:53 PM, Doc Rossi wrote: I think I misunderstood your question earlier. They use the flesh side of the nail for the strong beat - the stroke towards the body. Thanks Doc, Ah ha! So the interesting point would be where they change to and from it, how they negotiate going from a down stroke as a strong beat to an up stroke being the strong beat. Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: dedillo
Oh thanks Gernot. That one. I thought you all were talking about a new one. On Nov 2, 2007, at 4:22 PM, Gernot Hilger wrote: Zitat von Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Could someone please post the URL so I could watch this? Thank you. http://youtube.com/watch?v=G23_pcCZkZg Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings
Dear All After reading Mimmo Peruffo's interesting article, I find that it explains an improvement, I obtained by changing my stringing, in an experiment I described at http://tinyurl.com/2husza. I would like to discuss various points raised by MP in the light of my experiment, but I do realize that I have much less experience in using different types of gut stringing than many other people on this list, and also I have no experience at all in stringing varied types of instruments. It is not clear that all instruments respond identically to each way of stringing. It is even possible that some lutes that are naturally slightly dull, could respond well to PVF carbon strings, which MP says are much too bright in comparison with any type of gut string; and some PVF (KF) might be slightly less bright than others, especially when treated by David Tayler's sand-papering technique. Other lutes that are particularly bright, might not respond so well to Venice gut, and prefer Pistoys. Furthermore, room acoustics may play a role, and general problems of the context in which one might be called on to play, such as D V Ooijen's fishing trip, sea-port, lute expedition. Therefore, please take this into account, and take what I say here almost as a tentative question. CUT-OFF POINTS: I notice that among the questions raised by Mimmo Peruffo, there is the necessity of using three different types of strings (Trebles, Meanes, and Basses), and that finding the right cut-off point between string types, is essential for having a smooth passage from one type to another (homogenous overall sound). That was exactly what I had found in my experiment with my particular lute. MEANES: He suggests the following specific 'historically based break-off points for these string types: - Treble strings (Dowland’s and Mace’s Trebles; i.e. Romans, Minikins etc), i.e. the first three courses of both Renaissance and Baroque lutes. - Mid register (4th and 5th courses, Dowland’s Meanes, which he divides in Small and Great Meanes; i.e. Gansars). - Low register (from the 6th course down, the Basses; Lyons, Pistoys, Catlins). In the experiment mentioned above, I was looking for a remedy for what had seemed to me to be exactly a situation of this type, where the break between string types had seemed wrong, and the passage therefore across these strings was not smooth. The break I had had between the Trebles and Meanes came between the 5th and the 4th (rather than the 4th and 3rd). I had Trebles from the 4th up (and even the 5th were Larson Lyons which are stiffish). I felt intuitively that the 5th and 4th should be of the same type, however, neither Lyons nor Pistoy exist down to 0,70. I tried using treble types down to the 5th, but it did not sound right, although the transition was smoother. Eventually I discovered that Venice Aquila Meane diapasons do go down to 0,70, and can therefore be used on the 4th. There is no doubt that switching over to Venice on the 5th and 4th made the passage across the lute smoother. While their suppleness improved the higher frequency response at the harmonics. I do think these strings are ideal for that use (Meanes), at least on my 60 cm 440 Hz diapason Martin Haycock Gerle Lute. BASSES: I later changed the the 6th Pistoy, to Venice, and while that gave an overall brighter sound, it was slightly less obvious that it was an improvement, it was rather an alternative sound, but it did not particularly effect the smooth passage across the lute strings. Previously, for the Basses, I had a gimped Pistoy string + octave on the 7th and a simple Pistoy + octave on the 6th. This was probably closer to the ideal quoted from MP above, since both gimped and Pistoys are in fact Pistoys, and thus among the basses quoted by MP above. Pistoy Basses are tresses (with three elements), rather than twines (two elements). Venice Meanes are twines. One would expect Pistoys to be slightly more bass orientated than the Venice, and indeed that seems true, and this should be a good quality for the set of bass strings. In other words, Venice could be ideal for the Meanes, and Pistoys for the Basses. Another solution for basses could be to adopt loaded Venice strings on 7 and 6. The loading would tend to damp the higher frequencies, and allow a smaller diameter. This might be an interesting and historical solution. MP gives very good arguments in favour of such a solution, but for the moment no such string is being marketed, and Gimped (which is a different way of loading a string) remains probably the best compromise, better than wound strings. Note that Charles Besnaiou CNRS telephone twist nylon or nylgut, might be good solutions for those who choose synthetics but don't want wirewounds. Carlos Gonzales, lutemaker, also mentioned carbon- wound-carbons. I have no idea what these
[LUTE] Poulton #73
There's one manuscript source for it, and it's a mess, so every performer has to make decisions about, for example, where rhythm signs should go. It is in one of the Matthew Holmes manuscripts now in the Cambridge University Library. He was evidently tired of copying at that point. It's hard to read and full of mistakes - misplaced or omitted rhythms, incorrect (as written) counterpoint, cadences on the wrong beat, etc. The version in the Poulton book doesn't do much to fix things. Paul gave a talk on reconstructing it this past summer at the LSA workshop in Vancouver. I don't remember who else was in the room, but maybe someone taped it or can write faster than I can and took good notes. Bob --- My lute is strung entirely in gut., said Tom sheepishly. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Marker at the 7th fret
ha, did you noticed: PoD has a marker on the 7th bar! i need one too! The no marker on the 7th fret is a self-flagellating lunatic classical guitar thing. Someone once asked Paul about this at a summer workshop. He explained that he played lots of different instruments with widely varying string lengths and finished up by saying I'd rather look stupid than sound stupid. Bob --- My lute is strung entirely in gut., said Tom sheepishly. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Poulton #73 [was] dedillo
To All: I haven't been following this thread too closely but in case anyone is interested, we have posted a pdf of my performing edition of Poulton 73 on our web site for download. You can find it at http://www.mignarda.com/editions/downloads.html. I created this performing edition after hearing Paul O'Dette talk about it but don't think I followed his changes slavishly. Ron Andrico http://www.mignarda.com Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 12:44:36 +0100 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE] Poulton #73 [was] dedillo @[EMAIL PROTECTED] On 01.11.2007, at 23:46, G. Crona wrote: I believe the finish _could_ be played using dedillo though? Is that true, G=C3=83-=B6ran? My two editions (tab and music) give the finale with alternating bass and treble notes, obviously made for alternating thumb and index. Even on guitar I played it that way and I cannot think of any other sensible approach, to be honest. How'd you try dedillo? Sincerely curious: Gernot Hi Gernot I tried to play the tremolo passage with dedillo. Compleatly feasible IMO, although a little awkward at first if you're used to thumb-index, and a questionable attack and course control. Probably more useful on single string instruments? As to editions, I've found that I mostly have to make my own ones. Not to split hairs though, as said, I also use the stan! dard technique, and as PO'D does the same in the tremolo passage, there's no argument. I thought he used dedillo, as I was mistakenly taking the next to last meassures, where he uses thumb on bass and index on treble consequently as dedillo, and not having access to the YouTube clip at the time of posting. I'm one of those dinosaurs with only analog connection still :[ @[EMAIL PROTECTED] PS. #73 has an identical beginning as 2 of Molinaro's fantasias. Neither remarkable nor much of a coincidence. The first three or four notes are a formula known in Italy as, if I recall correctly, the canzona francese. Pieces based on it were common--Giovanni Gabrieli was particularly fond of it. This is not about just three or four notes, which would indeed be coincidental, but about the first 4 bars in Molinaro's fantasia #1 and # 7 being identical to Poulton's # 73 in form if not in pitch. I didn't find such a similarity in any other lute fantasias, and con! sidering Dowland's sojourn in Italy in the right time-frame..! . If its a common theme in canzona francese models, I bow to superior knowledge. But as I said, I haven't found this theme in any other lute fantasias (or canzone francese in lute tablature FTM) but in these three pieces, and there are quite a few lute fantasias. Coincidence? I know that some of you also thinks so, but others I've mailed with believe them to at least be based on some common theme. In any case, 4 bars is not much to base hypothesis on, thats why I wrote Molinaro-dubious. This piece has always been a favourite of mine, as I find it to be a gem of a lute piece, extremely well constructed, idiomatic and incorporating many of the lutes finest features. Its also great fun to play, if you're up to it. I believed that Martin Shepherd had made a fine version some years back, with major editings in the finale on [1]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/month/archive/pomarchiveindex.htm but couldn't find it now. We were probably just discussing it on the list... Be! st G. PO'D clip at: [2]http://youtube.com/watch?v=G23_pcCZkZg References 1. http://www.luteshop.co.uk/month/archive/pomarchiveindex.htm 2. http://youtube.com/watch?v=G23_pcCZkZg To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html _ Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Cafe. Stop by today. http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline --
[LUTE] Re: Lute music transposed to Guitar on the internet
Ed, many of those links do not work any more! On Fri, 2 Nov 2007 18:29:05 +0900 Ed Durbrow wrote: Here are some URLs to get you started: http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/webtab.html On Nov 1, 2007, at 8:21 PM, Joshua E. Horn wrote: Scratch that, where is some lute tablature on the internet? Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Marker at the 7th fret
Not long ago I came to the realization that every teacher I have ever worked with has markers on f and h. My daughter has given me penguin stickers which now proudly adorn the back of every fingerboard I own. DS On Friday, November 02, 2007, at 07:05AM, Robert Clair [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ha, did you noticed: PoD has a marker on the 7th bar! i need one too! The no marker on the 7th fret is a self-flagellating lunatic classical guitar thing. Someone once asked Paul about this at a summer workshop. He explained that he played lots of different instruments with widely varying string lengths and finished up by saying I'd rather look stupid than sound stupid. Bob --- My lute is strung entirely in gut., said Tom sheepishly. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Marker at the 7th fret
He definitely has a marker on the 7th fret in this old clip at least! On Fri, 2 Nov 2007 07:04:37 -0400 Robert Clair wrote: ha, did you noticed: PoD has a marker on the 7th bar! i need one too! The no marker on the 7th fret is a self-flagellating lunatic classical guitar thing. Someone once asked Paul about this at a summer workshop. He explained that he played lots of different instruments with widely varying string lengths and finished up by saying I'd rather look stupid than sound stupid. Bob --- My lute is strung entirely in gut., said Tom sheepishly. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Marker at the 7th fret
hi daniel, i just added a little starfish - from my daughters sticker albu - to the 7th :-)hope it works. w. Original-Nachricht Datum: Fri, 02 Nov 2007 05:04:31 -0700 Von: daniel shoskes [EMAIL PROTECTED] An: Robert Clair [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Marker at the 7th fret Not long ago I came to the realization that every teacher I have ever worked with has markers on f and h. My daughter has given me penguin stickers which now proudly adorn the back of every fingerboard I own. DS On Friday, November 02, 2007, at 07:05AM, Robert Clair [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ha, did you noticed: PoD has a marker on the 7th bar! i need one too! The no marker on the 7th fret is a self-flagellating lunatic classical guitar thing. Someone once asked Paul about this at a summer workshop. He explained that he played lots of different instruments with widely varying string lengths and finished up by saying I'd rather look stupid than sound stupid. Bob --- My lute is strung entirely in gut., said Tom sheepishly. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute music transposed to Guitar on the internet
Here are some URLs to get you started: http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/webtab.html On Nov 1, 2007, at 8:21 PM, Joshua E. Horn wrote: Scratch that, where is some lute tablature on the internet? Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute iconographic project - a proposal]
There is a long-standing effort to do for musical iconography what RILM and RIMM do for musicology and music manuscripts, respectively: http://web.gc.cuny.edu/rcmi/index.htm They don't seem to be very web-oriented. Possibly they are concerned about copyright issues in putting their images online (a 400-year-old work of art is in the public domain, but the museum slide or reproduction in a published volume is not.) They tried to develop a cataloguing system for images of musical instruments. Unfortunately they kept revising the rules as they went along and discovered that the [1-page] [10-page] [25-page] rule sets were inadequate. I had some correspondence with them a couple of decades ago, which broke down because they wanted a set of clearly distinguished types of lute. each with its own distinct name. I kept trying to explain that the lute family was not standardized and that you would need to specify, insofar as possible, the number of strings, number of nuts/pegboxes, etc. They would write back and say, Yes, but we need /one name/ for each type. They didn't get that the lute is polymorphously perverse. I also wrote my master's thesis for the School of Information and Library Science at UNC on the history of their cataloguing rules. Short summary: They shoulda asked a librarian. Caroline Original Message Subject:[LUTE] Re: Lute iconographic project - a proposal Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 14:59:18 +0100 From: G. Crona [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu CC: Susanne Herre [EMAIL PROTECTED] Good idea Susanne! It would be most convenient to have a site where as much as possible of the iconography could be found. Well catalogisized and in both tumbnails and bigger versions. A sort of mini Wikipedia like, where we could go in and add information if available. I believe Alfonso reads the list, perhaps he has some ideas of how to go about to do this? B.R. G. - Original Message - From: Susanne Herre [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2007 4:25 PM Subject: [LUTE] Lute iconographic project - a proposal Dear all, I liked very much the website of Alfonso Marin about the Lute iconography. Thank you very much for this work! Woulnd't it be good if this could get a more official character und could be enlarged by the help of us all (I guess nearly every body has digital photographs of lute angels, pictures, instruments in museums a.s.o. which would be interesting for everyone and which we could send to Alfonso Marin)? Then it would be helpful if the pictures could be organized in groups, e.g. 1) paintings, several periods of time 2) sculptures 3) instruments in museums (different types a.s.o.) The information could also be added by everyone. I think the medium Internet is really good to combine information, to share with many people. It could be a really good basis for research. What do you think about this idea? All the best, Susanne -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Lute iconographic project - a proposal]
- Original Message - From: Caroline Usher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lutenet lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 8:23 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute iconographic project - a proposal] There is a long-standing effort to do for musical iconography what RILM and RIMM do for musicology and music manuscripts, respectively: http://web.gc.cuny.edu/rcmi/index.htm They don't seem to be very web-oriented. Possibly they are concerned about copyright issues in putting their images online (a 400-year-old work of art is in the public domain, but the museum slide or reproduction in a published volume is not.) This is indeed a problem. An irritating one, in that it stops a lot of relevant, possibly creative, interaction of cultural initiatives. But maybe the iconography site could - initially, anyway - be based on pics that are already on the Net? That is, merely a treasure-trove of URLs. That wouldn't step on anyone's toes, surely? Anyway, why are we all so afraid of the copyright-bogeyman? I mean, the Feds haven't nuked YouTube yet, have they? Just wondering, Arne. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute iconographic project - a proposal]
On Nov 2, 2007, at 12:53 PM, Arne Keller wrote: Anyway, why are we all so afraid of the copyright-bogeyman? I mean, the Feds haven't nuked YouTube yet, have they? The Feds aren't going to. The content providers whose videos have been pirated will. YouTube is trying to avoid legal action by taking its own steps to avoid copyright infringement: http://www.andhranews.net/Intl/2007/October/16/YouTube-allows- media-19094.asp -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: historical lute stringings
I don't think the sound of carbon is that great even when treated with a bit opf sanding, but I use them when I play under high intensity spotlights, which is I'm afraid where most of the concerts are these dayslights and A/C. There is nothing as good as gut, especially for the ornaments. dt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
