[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought
Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 18:57:24 + (GMT) From: Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought To: Rob Lute [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu I agree, but would the strumming be so hard as to leave such marks? This is why I suggest some sort of ham -fisted guitarist! In 1890, say, not so much respect would have been had for such an instrument except in specialist and antiquarian circles. OI really don't know the reason for such extreme marks as Ed Martin describes and am only trying to suggest possibilities. What I find hard to accept is that an 18th century player, knowing the renown fragility of lutes, would have been so brutal. Of course, it may just have been kids having fun in the castle attic Martyn Martyn Rob Lute [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We musn't forget that strumming is not unknown on the lute, 11c lutes at least. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. - Sent from Yahoo! #45; a smarter inbox. --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought
No trouble at all, Martyn. Yes, the marks clearly indicate that it was played as a 13 course lute, as I have been saying. It shows a hundred or so thumb nail marks near the rose, and the corresponding marks from finger playing while in this position. Also, if one were strumming with a plectrum, the marks would be mostly vertical, but these marks clearly, from the 5th or 6th course, down to the 13th, are somewhat circular, as if one held his/her hand in 1 position, and moved the thumb up or down to various courses, accordingly. So, in courses 8 9, the marks are closer to the rose, but marks around the 6th or 13th are clearly closer back, showing an arc pattern with the thumb. It fits perfectly. The marks are from a hand position, as they match perfectly, and not from a strumming plectrum. Your ideas are excellent, and I would have also asked the same questions, but all in all, the marks match what a baroque lutenist would have done, with his thumb sticking out to towards the neck, and playing the bass courses while keeping the hand in position. It is amazing. The instruments are clearly baroque lutes, not anything similar to the pictures you showed. Also, they were kept in the attic for a very long time. The wear marks clearly coincide with at least 2 different baroque lute players on the smaller of the 2 lutes. The larger lute shows a musician playing close to the bridge. ed At 02:55 PM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thank you. Sorry to press you a wee bit but do you think it was played in its 13 course form because of the pattern of the marks? ie do they dissapear or become significantly fainter under where the 1st to 13th courses would run? Even if so, its last played state and that causing the marks might still have been from using it as a guitar, but one with extended basses. You'll know that from the mid 19th century extended bass guitars became relatively popular with 10 courses being common (Mertz, Coste, Padovetz, Dubez, Bayer et al) and later towards the end of the century more courses were added. I recall of picture of Heinrich Albert and his chums playing a rum collection of such guitars. Various websites eg http://www.harpguitars.netwww.harpguitars.net has many pictures. MH Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Once again, I doubt it very much. The marks are clearly made from playing a 13 course lute. And, it is documented that the instruments were in the castle attic for a very long time. ed At 08:46 AM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thanks for this. Well if not 'Wandervogel' as such (tho' I read the movement started in the last decade of the 19thC - well before 1907), perhaps guitar like strung nevertheless? MH Edward Martin wrote: Good idea, but no, absolutely unlikely. They were documented to be in storage, and were removed for observation in 1907, when a Heckel looked at them, and put back into storage in the castle.. ed .At 01:57 PM 2/6/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thank you for this. Just a thought, but the marks on the belly over and above the rose sound a bit like the sort of marks left by a strumming guitarist. Could it have been used as a 'Wandervogel' lute/guitar in the early20th century? I realise it's got many more than 6 courses but I presume they might not have felt the need to string them all if it was just, say, a son of the house having a strum on the old lute he found in the attic.. MH Edward Martin wrote: Dear ones, I have an interesting story. Dan Larson and I just returned from the National Museum of Music, in South Dakota. It was an absolutely fantastic experience. They have many, many lutes by Harton, Diefenbrouchar, Sellas, Edlinger. They also have guitars by Stradivarius, Sellas and Voboam. Many violins by Stradivarius, Ganeri, Amati, etc. It was unbelievable. The museum let us have full access to the Edlingers! We examined them for about 10 hours, and I got to hold them in the playing position, etc. They have been examined in the 1970's by Lundberg and others. One is 76 cm mensur, the other is 81 or 82 cm, and they were perhaps originally by Tieffenbrucker, or perhaps a Bolognese maker. Later, they were converted to 13 course baroque lutes by Thomas Edlinger; the longer instrument in 1724, the shorter one in 1728. The 76 cm is flat back in 11 ribs of bird's eye maple, the 82 cm is multi ribbed yew. What really startled me was the 76 cm lute. It is documented that these lutes had been in a Czeck castle for hundreds of years. It appeared to me that 2, or 3 different players used this lute. It showed heavy usage, so it was more than likely played at a professional level. One player played near the bridge, due to smudge dirt marks from the fingers, as well as the thumb. These marks were wide, and seemingly from finger marks. One player played close to the rose , and
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought
Ed I am still surprised that the long nails succeeded in marking through the strings. Does anyone know of guitare players leaving similar marks? Do you not think that the luthist might have invented some sort of extentions to his fingers? These things could be made by anyone. Look at these http://www.strum-n-comfort.com/sharktoothpickproducts.html They don't look beyond the skills of a late Baroque player to construct. Whether they did or not, is another question. Anthony Le 8 févr. 08 à 00:26, Edward Martin a écrit : No trouble at all, Martyn. Yes, the marks clearly indicate that it was played as a 13 course lute, as I have been saying. It shows a hundred or so thumb nail marks near the rose, and the corresponding marks from finger playing while in this position. Also, if one were strumming with a plectrum, the marks would be mostly vertical, but these marks clearly, from the 5th or 6th course, down to the 13th, are somewhat circular, as if one held his/her hand in 1 position, and moved the thumb up or down to various courses, accordingly. So, in courses 8 9, the marks are closer to the rose, but marks around the 6th or 13th are clearly closer back, showing an arc pattern with the thumb. It fits perfectly. The marks are from a hand position, as they match perfectly, and not from a strumming plectrum. Your ideas are excellent, and I would have also asked the same questions, but all in all, the marks match what a baroque lutenist would have done, with his thumb sticking out to towards the neck, and playing the bass courses while keeping the hand in position. It is amazing. The instruments are clearly baroque lutes, not anything similar to the pictures you showed. Also, they were kept in the attic for a very long time. The wear marks clearly coincide with at least 2 different baroque lute players on the smaller of the 2 lutes. The larger lute shows a musician playing close to the bridge. ed At 02:55 PM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thank you. Sorry to press you a wee bit but do you think it was played in its 13 course form because of the pattern of the marks? ie do they dissapear or become significantly fainter under where the 1st to 13th courses would run? Even if so, its last played state and that causing the marks might still have been from using it as a guitar, but one with extended basses. You'll know that from the mid 19th century extended bass guitars became relatively popular with 10 courses being common (Mertz, Coste, Padovetz, Dubez, Bayer et al) and later towards the end of the century more courses were added. I recall of picture of Heinrich Albert and his chums playing a rum collection of such guitars. Various websites eg http://www.harpguitars.netwww.harpguitars.net has many pictures. MH Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Once again, I doubt it very much. The marks are clearly made from playing a 13 course lute. And, it is documented that the instruments were in the castle attic for a very long time. ed At 08:46 AM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thanks for this. Well if not 'Wandervogel' as such (tho' I read the movement started in the last decade of the 19thC - well before 1907), perhaps guitar like strung nevertheless? MH Edward Martin wrote: Good idea, but no, absolutely unlikely. They were documented to be in storage, and were removed for observation in 1907, when a Heckel looked at them, and put back into storage in the castle.. ed .At 01:57 PM 2/6/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thank you for this. Just a thought, but the marks on the belly over and above the rose sound a bit like the sort of marks left by a strumming guitarist. Could it have been used as a 'Wandervogel' lute/guitar in the early20th century? I realise it's got many more than 6 courses but I presume they might not have felt the need to string them all if it was just, say, a son of the house having a strum on the old lute he found in the attic.. MH Edward Martin wrote: Dear ones, I have an interesting story. Dan Larson and I just returned from the National Museum of Music, in South Dakota. It was an absolutely fantastic experience. They have many, many lutes by Harton, Diefenbrouchar, Sellas, Edlinger. They also have guitars by Stradivarius, Sellas and Voboam. Many violins by Stradivarius, Ganeri, Amati, etc. It was unbelievable. The museum let us have full access to the Edlingers! We examined them for about 10 hours, and I got to hold them in the playing position, etc. They have been examined in the 1970's by Lundberg and others. One is 76 cm mensur, the other is 81 or 82 cm, and they were perhaps originally by Tieffenbrucker, or perhaps a Bolognese maker. Later, they were converted to 13 course baroque lutes by Thomas Edlinger; the longer instrument in 1724, the shorter one in 1728. The 76 cm is flat back in 11 ribs of bird's eye maple,
[LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo?
Where's the evidence that theorbo double reentrant tuning was the principal and 'persisting' attraction of the instrument and not its 'power' due to large size? This unsupported statement looks more like a speculative case for supporting small theorbos in unhistorical tunings (passim previous communications) than anything else. Large theorbos continued to be played and new ones made into the 18th century; representations of professional players generally show large instruments. The archlute in the old, non-reentrant tuning, increasingly popular from the later 17th century. MH howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Campanellas are not necessarily skips of 7ths and 9ths. That's not how they're defined. I didn't say that they are. What I said was skips of a 7th and 9th in scale passages (known as campanellas) are commonplace in baroque guitar music. It is the scale passages that are known as campanellas not the skips of a 7th etc. Scale passages are not known as campanellas. I can sing scale passages. I can't sing campanellas. If I want to form an idea of how a composer meant passages in 17th-century guitar or theorbo music to sound, do I form those ideas from other 17th-century guitar or theorbo music, or do I spend a lot of time with the vocal music that the composer would have spent his time listening to, accompanying, composing and (probably) singing? I would suggest that you start off first and foremost by asking what would work in practice with the kind of strings which might have been available in the 17th century. This is surely the reason why the 1st and 2nd courses on the theorbo were tuned down an octave - at least that is what I have always understood. Tuning them to the upper octave was incompatible with the string length. Don't believe everything you read on the lute net. If reentrant tuning were purely a matter of necessity --an inconvenience endured for the sake of increased size (and thus volume) the theorbo wouldn't have been popular for more than a century. Reentrant tuning might have started as a concession to necessity, but it persisted because of its musical advantages, which You seem to be suggesting that instrumental music was still essentially the same as vocal music in the 17th century but surely the whole point is that instruments have their own idioms which reflect what they are capable of. They don't simple imitate vocal music - even when they are accompanying it. I hope I'm not suggesting anything other than what I said -- that the sound picture a 17th-century theorbist or guitarist had in his head was a 17th-century sound picture first and a theorbo or guitar sound picture second, and would have been dominated by the vocal models of the day. Doesn't it strike you as odd that the only instruments in which we have to discuss whether octaves should be displaced in melodic passages are the instruments about which we're unsure of the stringing? Is it more reasonable to assume that they're an island in the musical landscape, or that we haven't figured out the stringing questions? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - Sent from Yahoo! #45; a smarter inbox. --
[LUTE] lutemalt
The results of the single malt tasting after the Dowland class: Winner peaty Finlaggan Islay Reserve--a dark horse by a nose Winner smooth Oban Distiller's Edition Double Matured 1992 http://www.voicesofmusic.org/lutemalt.html In the Chocolate category: Lindt Excellence 85% Extra Dark All the lute songs were great. dt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time
Peter: As a latecomer to this interesting thread, I wonder that no one seems to have mentioned Ephraim Segerman's article 'Tempo and tactus after 1500', p. 337 in _Companion to Medieval Renaissance Music_, edited by Tess Knighton and David Fallows (US edition Schirmer, New York, 1992). Segerman quotes Mace and uses Dowland's Essex galliard from Varietie, 1610 as a example. He bases his ideas about possible tempo of a dance form on the number of notes it is humanly possible to play in time in a string of demisemiquavers, taking into account a final cadential flourish that may have to break time. The article is worth a read. Best wishes, Ron Andrico http://www.mignarda.com Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 09:18:19 +0100 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time Thanks to all who have replied. We seem to have arrived at one bar of galliard = half a bar of pavan, which is certainly is more plausible than the original 'Donington' proposal. However I still have a niggling problem with applying this to Dowland, with whom this discussion started. The prevailing note-length for divisions in his solo lute pavans is four flags. For galliards, the prevailing note-length is three flags. At the suggested tempo relationship, the divisions in the galliard will only be three-quarters as fast as the divisions in the pavan. So the 'faster' dance comes out sounding slower. Can that really be right? Donington isn't the best authority to rely on for these things. You will struggle to find anything about renaissance lute in his book, not surprisingly since he explains (page 91) that! the book is mainly about baroque music from Monteverdi to JSB. It was first published in 1963, long before Poulton's Dowland volumes. P On 05/02/2008, Jean-Marie Poirier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is no such obvious equivalence really, but keep in mind the equivalence of one breve with two beats (Pavan) and one breve with three beats (Galliard). The augmentation of the number of notes to a beat - three for two - gives the feeling of an acceleration sufficient to differentiate the two dances. At least that's how I usually find my way around in this particular matter and it works fine, even with dancers... Hope it helps ! All the best, Jean-Marie === 05-02-2008 21:: === The same is Jean-Marie reminding and everybody agree to it. The problem appeares which time values of each dance equals. That is in what containes one galliarde beat and one pavane beat. After reading you and looki! ng again to the Arthur's exemples, I should have written! : 1 galliard measure (one beat) = 1/2 of a pavan measure (one beat) and in an original mensural notation would be: 3 half notes of a galliard (one beat to a measure) = 1 whole note of a pavan (one beat or half of the measure) Is it correct? Jurek __ 1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure. In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might be: 3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan (1/4 of a measure). On 2008-02-05, at 17:49, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: Exactly Jerzy. I think that's what theoreticians call tactus inequalis : 1 tactus in a binary measure (= normally a half measure in modern transcriptions ) is equivalent to 1 tactus in triple time ( one measure in modern transcrition). In other words if you beat time with a regular tactus in duple time - ! hand touching down for each breve duration, as you see in some paintings with singers - , not considering the modern concept of bar, as there were no bars then as you know, and if this tactus remains the same for a triple time measure, it means you keep the same tactus all the time with a clear proportion, so it's quite easy to shift from duple time to triple and back, if necessary. Usually a breve, with two demi- breves, in duple time becomes a breve in triple with three semi- breves to it. Try it and you'll see it works almost all the time ! It works all the time for Pavan-Galliard proportion. So, take care, you have to consider what speed your triple time breve will be like to choose a correct tempo for the Pavan, [and be able to keep it ;-)]... Best, Jean-Marie === 05-02-2008 17:27:26 === On 2008-02-05, at 15:15, ! Arthur Ness wrote: http://memory.loc.gov/amme! m/dihtml /divideos.html Thank you, Arthur, Then it is 1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure. In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might be: 3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan (1/4 of a measure). Forgive improper terminology, if that's important. In art music, that is for playing or listening, those proportions loose sense of course. However there are Lute-Listers better then me in Renaissance theory.
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 13:33:01 +0100 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time As for Elizbethan dance movements such as Pavan etc., I think we have to be very careful before deciding if they have to be danceable or if they are stylised forms. Both cases coexist in the repertoire, and here again nothing is clearly indicated in the sources. Only a very close analysis and a good dose of musical sense will help you come to an acceptable solution. == This is an important point and the clearest statement on the subject I have seen. Thank you, Jean-Marie. RA http://www.mignarda.com _ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota
Agreed. ed At 08:20 AM 2/7/2008 +0100, Andreas Schlegel wrote: If we take a breaking point at 260 Hz/m (Mimmo wrote from strings like that), and a a'=392 Hz (and so the the f' is 311 Hz) we are between the normal breaking point at 321 Hz and the normal stress point (breaking point minus one semitone) at 303 Hz. The four known German theorboes have string length of 85.5 cm (Leipzig 3357 Venere/Schelle), 88 cm (Nürnberg MI 574 Schelle), ca.87 cm (Dresden 51642, Tesler) and 82.7 (Berlin 3581, Koch). So the 81 cm are good for a very low tuned baroque lute or a very small (!) German theorbo - but it's a lute with a bass rider and from this point of view NOT a German theorbo. Andreas Am 07.02.2008 um 00:59 schrieb Are Vidar Boye Hansen: Does this mean that this instrument could have been tuned in the theorbo tuning mentioned by Baron? Are Great question. The answer is simple. It would have been strung with a standard treble, in the usual fashion. I have not worked out what the top pitch would be - certainly _not_ f at 415, but perhaps at d at 415. The whole instrument would have been about a minor third lower, so the lowest course would have been around F, not A. Keep in mind, these are 13 course baroque lutes with first 2nd course single, then courses 12 13 on bass riders. To me, this leans in favor of tuning the top string as high as it goes, and not concerning where f is. ed At 04:00 PM 2/6/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote: Ed What sort of treble string could support 81cm? I am amazed. Anthony Le 6 fevr. 08 =E0 14:08, Edward Martin a ecrit : At 01:40 PM 2/6/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote: Interesting Ed. It is true that is these are just surface scratches, they could have been erased. As you mentioned a long nail, I though they might be thin but deep. However, it would be rather strange for a nail to mark though the strings right up to the diapasons. One player played close to the rose , and used a long nail, as there are multiple thin scrape marks (perhaps hundreds of these marks), from a long right hand nail. That player even played in front of the rose, towards the neck, on all the diapason courses! Do you mean that the scratches near the diapasons might be from a thumb nail? Yes. In other words, would the player have had long nails on fingers and thumb? Yes, definitely, for the thumb. It almost sounds as though the player might have had something attached to his fingers (like some blues players do). I doubt that but who knows? You say one lute is 76 cm, the other 81 cm. I assume you are speaking of the total length. Do you have any idea of the actual string length? Those ARE the string lengths. 76 and 81 or 82 cm. HUGE baroque lutes! They would have had to been tuned at a much lower pitch than f at 415. Sorry not to close the can of worms, but this sort of detail is not so easy to come by. Regards Anthony Le 6 fevr. 08 =E0 12:57, Edward Martin a ecrit : Anthony, and all, I knew I would open up a can of works with these observations. There are many, many possibilities. We do not know if the original lutes were bass lutes, or if they were archlutes, or if they were theorbos, or if they were actually new lutes by Edlinger. The evidence seems to point to them being old renaissance lutes that were converted by Edlinger. It is undetermined, but it appears that if they are from the renaissance, that they are probably Fussen or Bolognese in origin. Edlinger was in very high regard and esteem. When he did the 13 course conversions, he certainly would have made the lutes attractive, as he had great skills. All he would have to do is simply sand the top a little to make all those ugly scratches go away. It makes no sense to go to the trouble to convert and instrument, and then leave the top will multiple scratch marks.. that would be silly. The scratches are from after the conversion. No, all the sets of marks are both make by 13 course players, and they were made after the conversion. The nail like scratches were made using an interesting technique the thumb marks are close to the rose, where the finger marks are made quite a distance towards the bridge, which matches a technique that is evident in paintings, with the thumb sticking out quite sharply towards the neck. No, this was not in any way renaissance technique; as well, the scratches perfectly match the 13 courses that are on the lute now. The evidence of the other technique on that lute also suggests the thumb sticking out sharply towards the neck. Thanks! ed At 11:24 AM 2/6/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote: It is interesting that on the museum page, they say that the Edlinger lutes were once thought to have been by Tieffenbrucker, and then baroqued bt Edlinger, but now it is considered that they were entirely built by Edlinger. http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/ 10213ItalianLute.html http://www.usd.edu/smm/PluckedStrings/Lutes/ 10214ItalianLute.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota
Once again, I doubt it very much. The marks are clearly made from playing a 13 course lute. And, it is documented that the instruments were in the castle attic for a very long time. ed At 08:46 AM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thanks for this. Well if not 'Wandervogel' as such (tho' I read the movement started in the last decade of the 19thC - well before 1907), perhaps guitar like strung nevertheless? MH Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good idea, but no, absolutely unlikely. They were documented to be in storage, and were removed for observation in 1907, when a Heckel looked at them, and put back into storage in the castle.. ed .At 01:57 PM 2/6/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thank you for this. Just a thought, but the marks on the belly over and above the rose sound a bit like the sort of marks left by a strumming guitarist. Could it have been used as a 'Wandervogel' lute/guitar in the early20th century? I realise it's got many more than 6 courses but I presume they might not have felt the need to string them all if it was just, say, a son of the house having a strum on the old lute he found in the attic.. MH Edward Martin wrote: Dear ones, I have an interesting story. Dan Larson and I just returned from the National Museum of Music, in South Dakota. It was an absolutely fantastic experience. They have many, many lutes by Harton, Diefenbrouchar, Sellas, Edlinger. They also have guitars by Stradivarius, Sellas and Voboam. Many violins by Stradivarius, Ganeri, Amati, etc. It was unbelievable. The museum let us have full access to the Edlingers! We examined them for about 10 hours, and I got to hold them in the playing position, etc. They have been examined in the 1970's by Lundberg and others. One is 76 cm mensur, the other is 81 or 82 cm, and they were perhaps originally by Tieffenbrucker, or perhaps a Bolognese maker. Later, they were converted to 13 course baroque lutes by Thomas Edlinger; the longer instrument in 1724, the shorter one in 1728. The 76 cm is flat back in 11 ribs of bird's eye maple, the 82 cm is multi ribbed yew. What really startled me was the 76 cm lute. It is documented that these lutes had been in a Czeck castle for hundreds of years. It appeared to me that 2, or 3 different players used this lute. It showed heavy usage, so it was more than likely played at a professional level. One player played near the bridge, due to smudge dirt marks from the fingers, as well as the thumb. These marks were wide, and seemingly from finger marks. One player played close to the rose , and used a long nail, as there are multiple thin scrape marks (perhaps hundreds of these marks), from a long right hand nail. That player even played in front of the rose, towards the neck, on all the diapason courses! It tells me that on this particular instrument, there were more than one player using very different techniques. As well, they played a technique with the thumb pointed towards the rose, as the old paintings show, but _NOT_ by the bridge. The longer lute in yew showed patterns and evidence of it being played very close to the bridge. The little area at the treble end of the bridge was worn down from overuse of the pinky being planted there. It seems that these lutes, although in possession by the same family in the same castle, are similar in that they are both Edlinger conversions to 13 course baroque lutes with bass riders. They do appear to have had dissimilar techniques and player positions, as evidenced by the wear on the sound boards, suggesting that the same player did not play the 2 instruments, and the shorter one had at least 2 different players. All in all, in was a humbling experience, to examine these masterpieces, so close up, and to hold them in playing position. The marks I mentioned on the shorter instrument do not show up well on photography, but are very open obvious to the naked eye. ed Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.20/1261 - Release Date: 2/5/2008 8:57 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 Sent from http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mailuk/taglines/isp/control/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51949/*http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/mail/winter07.htmlYahoo! - a smarter inbox. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.21/1263 - Release Date: 2/6/2008 8:14 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time
Better still : A Performer's Guide to Seventeenth-Century Music, edited by Stewart Carter (Schirmer Books, 1997), chapter 15 by George Houle : Meter and Tempo, full of interesting information ! Best, Jean-Marie === 07-02-2008 13:32:55 === Good point, Ron, and another good (short) reading is in A Performer's Guide to Renaissance Music, edited by Jeffery T. Kite-Powell (US edition Schirmer, New York, 1984), p. 306 to 316 an article bty Sarah Mead on Notation, Signs, and Symbols. On top of that, the book contains a very decent bibliography with several essential references on the subject, like for instance J.A. Bank, Tactus, Tempo and Notation in Mensural Music from the 13th to the 17th century, Amsterdam, 1972. I agree, it doesn't exactly read like Michael Connelly, but... ;-) Best, Jean-Marie === 07-02-2008 12:32:49 === As a latecomer to this interesting thread, I wonder that no one seems to have mentioned Ephraim Segerman's article 'Tempo and tactus after 1500', p. 337 in _Companion to Medieval Renaissance Music_, edited by Tess Knighton and David Fallows (US edition Schirmer, New York, 1992). Segerman quotes Mace and uses Dowland's Essex galliard from Varietie, 1610 as a example. He bases his ideas about possible tempo of a dance form on the number of notes it is humanly possible to play in time in a string of demisemiquavers, taking into account a final cadential flourish that may have to break time. The article is worth a read. Best wishes, Ron Andrico http://www.mignarda.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://poirierjm.free.fr 07-02-2008 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://poirierjm.free.fr 07-02-2008
[LUTE] Ang: Mouton engraving
Have a look at http://www.tabulatura.com/GITBIBL.htm where you can find information on the etching and photo of the etching in my collection at http://www.tabulatura.com/moutonks.jpg Best wishes Kenneth Sparr www.tabulatura.com Ursprungligt meddelande Från: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Datum: 07-02-2008 13:37 Till: Lute Netlute@cs.dartmouth.edu Ärende: [LUTE] Mouton engraving Can anybody send mea link for the Mouton engaving (not the original painting by Le Troy) or tell me why I can buy a copy? Thanks To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo?
Oh dear - not again. This is,of course, very speculative and the weight of evidence is against a high octave on the second course (mainly because it'd break on anything approaching a decent sized continuo theorbo). As explained ad nauseum elsewhere, the 'Old ones'clearly explain that the reason for the theorbo was greater 'power'; the ability to play close seconds and 65 chords very easily is somewhat outweighed by the limited range of the instrument. Hence the rise of the archlute later in the 17th century. MH [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Monica, --- Monica Hall wrote: Well - like baroque guitarists - perhaps theorbo-players were willing to tollerate the displaced notes in order to enjoy all the other benefits which re-entrant tunings conferred upon them! I doubt it. Many of the benefits of re-entrant tuning I mentioned in the last post were useful in making proper voice leading more feasible without having to go a lot of awkward technical trouble. Frequent displaced octaves do not fall into the catagory of proper voice leading. You can't have your cake and eat it. Quite right. The theorbo with double re-entrant tuning sacrificed its upper tonal range in exchange for having more adjacent notes under the fingers. But Pittoni and Melli seem to have wanted at least a taste of that cake and so added the high octave to their second course so as to fake having more notes. Chris Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - Sent from Yahoo! #45; a smarter inbox. --
[LUTE] Re: Mouton engraving
Nigel Solomon [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Can anybody send mea link for the Mouton engaving (not the original painting by Le Troy) or tell me why I can buy a copy? Thanks Stephen and Sandy got one on their homepage: http://www.lutesandguitars.co.uk/images/Mouton.jpg -- Best, Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought
I agree, but would the strumming be so hard as to leave such marks? This is why I suggest some sort of ham -fisted guitarist! In 1890, say, not so much respect would have been had for such an instrument except in specialist and antiquarian circles. OI really don't know the reason for such extreme marks as Ed Martin describes and am only trying to suggest possibilities. What I find hard to accept is that an 18th century player, knowing the renown fragility of lutes, would have been so brutal. Of course, it may just have been kids having fun in the castle attic Martyn Martyn Rob Lute [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We musn't forget that strumming is not unknown on the lute, 11c lutes at least. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - Sent from Yahoo! #45; a smarter inbox. --
[LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo?
On 2/7/2008, Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh dear - not again. This is,of course, very speculative and the weight of evidence is against a high octave on the second course (mainly because it'd break on anything approaching a decent sized continuo theorbo). Well, inspired by this discussion I just destroyed a couple of Mimmo's wonderful nylguts (36 and 38) by trying them as the high e double in my Dieffopruchar, 86.7cm... The breaking point was reached... ;-) Arto PS Double re-entrant rulez! ;) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo?
Martyn, Argh - I get it, you don't agree with my and others' take on the matter. However, I must point out (as others have ad nauseum) that your arguement relies quite heavily on speculation and selective disregard of aspects of the historical record. What I don't like so much is the tone that there is only one right way. Countering your assertion that the old ones were very clear about the instrument, Praetorius, when talking specifically about the theorbo, had this to say: Since constant changes take place in these various matters, nothing very definite may be stated about them here. Chris --- Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh dear - not again. This is,of course, very speculative and the weight of evidence is against a high octave on the second course (mainly because it'd break on anything approaching a decent sized continuo theorbo). As explained ad nauseum elsewhere, the 'Old ones'clearly explain that the reason for the theorbo was greater 'power'; the ability to play close seconds and 65 chords very easily is somewhat outweighed by the limited range of the instrument. Hence the rise of the archlute later in the 17th century. MH [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Monica, --- Monica Hall wrote: Well - like baroque guitarists - perhaps theorbo-players were willing to tollerate the displaced notes in order to enjoy all the other benefits which re-entrant tunings conferred upon them! I doubt it. Many of the benefits of re-entrant tuning I mentioned in the last post were useful in making proper voice leading more feasible without having to go a lot of awkward technical trouble. Frequent displaced octaves do not fall into the catagory of proper voice leading. You can't have your cake and eat it. Quite right. The theorbo with double re-entrant tuning sacrificed its upper tonal range in exchange for having more adjacent notes under the fingers. But Pittoni and Melli seem to have wanted at least a taste of that cake and so added the high octave to their second course so as to fake having more notes. Chris Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - Sent from Yahoo! - a smarter inbox. -- Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
[LUTE] Tarantella - ground, melody or rhytm?
Dear collective knowledge, as some may know, I happen to have kind of relation to some tarantula spiders, see my page (or don't if you happen to have araknofobia!) http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/Tarantula/ I would like to gather a collection of Tarantella dances to a web page. And especially such pieces that could be naturally played or accompanied by lute instruments - bar. and ren. guitars included. That means tabulated or continuo music - or songs - let us say before 19th century - there are lots of pieces and versions after 1800. But I would like to find mostly 18th, 17th and 16th century Tarantellas. Are there any from earlier years? Perhaps there are some readers, who do not know that Tarantella dancing was kind of medicine or remedy to persons, who were bitten by a spider. And as far as I know, in Italy it was a bite of Black Widow, just a tiny little spider compared to my tarantula spiders. ;-) And to my subject line: is there any consensus, whether Tarantella is a ground bass line, a melody, or a rhythm pattern? All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo?
Monica, --- Monica Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well - like baroque guitarists - perhaps theorbo-players were willing to tollerate the displaced notes in order to enjoy all the other benefits which re-entrant tunings conferred upon them! I doubt it. Many of the benefits of re-entrant tuning I mentioned in the last post were useful in making proper voice leading more feasible without having to go a lot of awkward technical trouble. Frequent displaced octaves do not fall into the catagory of proper voice leading. You can't have your cake and eat it. Quite right. The theorbo with double re-entrant tuning sacrificed its upper tonal range in exchange for having more adjacent notes under the fingers. But Pittoni and Melli seem to have wanted at least a taste of that cake and so added the high octave to their second course so as to fake having more notes. Chris Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo?
What are it's musical advantages? It seems to be creating rather a problemSurely it would make more sense from a musical point of view to tune the instrument straight down from treble to bass - like the violin, harpsichord etc... There are a number of advantages to having the top two strings down an octave: the ability to voice chords very closely; the ability to double notes within a chord for voice leading and increased volume; the ability to set up and play suspensions without too many awkward shapes that are difficult to transition to and from musically; the ability to play the exact same note in different places without shifting for tone color or to take advantage of a particular temperment; the ability to easily play close melodic intervals (i.e. thirds, seconds and even unisons) very smoothly; and of course the cross-string effects. Of course, many of these things are possible in a standard tuning, too. The re-entrant tuning, however, gives more practical and easy options. There are of many solo pieces that are impossible to play in anything BUT re-entrant tuning. Note that most of the above things are especially useful for someone providing an accompaniment. Lots of the solo repertoire takes advantage of the tuning in a more subtle way, however. Well - like baroque guitarists - perhaps theorbo-players were willing to tollerate the displaced notes in order to enjoy all the other benefits which re-entrant tunings conferred upon them! You can't have your cake and eat it. Monica Chris You seem to be suggesting that instrumental music was still essentially the same as vocal music in the 17th century but surely the whole point is that instruments have their own idioms which reflect what they are capable of. They don't simple imitate vocal music - even when they are accompanying it. I hope I'm not suggesting anything other than what I said -- that the sound picture a 17th-century theorbist or guitarist had in his head was a 17th-century sound picture first and a theorbo or guitar sound picture second, and would have been dominated by the vocal models of the day. Certainly not as far as the guitar is concerned! Singers can't strum 6/4 chords! The earliest guitar music is very unvocal. Doesn't it strike you as odd that the only instruments in which we have to discuss whether octaves should be displaced in melodic passages are the instruments about which we're unsure of the stringing? Is it more reasonable to assume that they're an island in the musical landscape, or that we haven't figured out the stringing questions? I see no reason why they shouldn't have their own peculiarities. Certainly other instruments do. Harps weren't always fully chromatic. Brass instruments could only play the notes of the harmonic series and so on. It would be interesting to know what sort of strings you are using to put a high octave string on the second course of your theorbo. There are people who argue that you should have a high octave string on the 3rd course of guitar - and then they tell you that they use nylgut. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
[LUTE] Re: Tarantella - ground, melody or rhytm?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear collective knowledge, as some may know, I happen to have kind of relation to some tarantula spiders, see my page (or don't if you happen to have araknofobia!) http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/Tarantula/ I would like to gather a collection of Tarantella dances to a web page. And especially such pieces that could be naturally played or accompanied by lute instruments - bar. and ren. guitars included. That means tabulated or continuo music - or songs - let us say before 19th century - there are lots of pieces and versions after 1800. But I would like to find mostly 18th, 17th and 16th century Tarantellas. Are there any from earlier years? Perhaps there are some readers, who do not know that Tarantella dancing was kind of medicine or remedy to persons, who were bitten by a spider. And as far as I know, in Italy it was a bite of Black Widow, just a tiny little spider compared to my tarantula spiders. ;-) And to my subject line: is there any consensus, whether Tarantella is a ground bass line, a melody, or a rhythm pattern? All the best, Arto There's a 'Tarantelas' in Santiago de Murcia's 'Resumen de Acompaner la Parte Con La Guitarra' (1714), p111. It's in D minor, in 6/8, in 12 four-bar sections. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
