[LUTE] Re: Buying Francesco da Milano - Ness

[Arthur Ness]

Mdme Thibault was a genuine "grande dame," and was very generous
in letting me have access to her collection of rare books.  She
owned some Weiss manuscript(s?), that ca. 1507 Italian lute
manuscript, the only known photostat of Spincino (the original
was since discovered in Cracow), and the only known copy of
Francesco's 1548 Casteliono print (Libro II).  That print was the
first edition and contains some of Francesco's most mature works,
Nos. 55-66.  In fact (I didn't know it at the time) she gave me
exclusive access to it. I guess she liked my work.  I
had to send samples before she let me use it. She was also a
fine musicologist.

I had heard that after her death there were some disputes over
the disposition of her rare books.  And for many years their
whereabouts was unknown.  Afterall they were very valuable in
terms of $$$. She had a Dowland third book of ayres that recently
sold for $15,000. And there were rumors of the heirs fighting
over the books. Even when the rare books went to the BNF, some
items were apparently held back, and appeared on the auction
block (e.g, the Dowland).  And less rare things were sold on the
antiquarian market. And I am particularly happy that Wolfgang has
that special copy.
=AJN (Boston, Mass.)=
Free Download of the Week

Wagner's Siegfried Idyll

performed by the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra; Christopher
Seaman,
conductor.

For this week's free download from Classical Music Library go to
my web page
and click on Alexander Street Press link:

http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/
===

- Original Message - 
From: "Anthony Hind" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "wolfgang wiehe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; 
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 1:40 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Buying Francesco da Milano - Ness


| Wolgang
| I just found this, in the records of Biblioth=E8que nationale
de
| France. Charte documentaire des acquisitions.
| www.bnf.fr/pages/infopro/collectionspro/pdf/Charte_coll.pdf
|
| These are manuscripts received in stead of death duties, the
Countess
| must have had quite a collection of manuscripts:
|
| "Les dations ont enrichi considerablement les collections :
Genevi=E8ve
| Thibault de Chambure en 1978
| (manuscrits, recueils, editions des XVIe au XVIIIe si=E8cles),
la
| succession Debussy-de Tinan, les manuscrits
| d'Henri Sauguet, la dation Francis Poulenc en 1998, la dation
Andre
| Jolivet en 2002."
|
| "Le Departement acquiert les livres de theorie musicale et les
livres
| sur la musique. L'objectif est de completer
| les editions publiees en France, mais aussi de combler
certaines
| lacunes d'editions etrang=E8res selectionnees, en
| raison de l'absence d'acquisitions etrang=E8res avant la
creation du
| Departement (Allemagne, Italie, annees
| 1910-1940). Par exemple dans l'une des ventes de la collection
de
| Chambure en 1995 : Stefano Pesori,
| Toccate de chitarriglia, Verona, ca 1650, Roland de Lassus,
Jeremiae
| prophetae..., Paris, 1586, Giovanni Battista
| Bassani, La sirene amorosa, Venise, 1699 et des symphonies
| concertantes de Guenin et Breval =E0 la vente
| Mongredien en 1997."
|
| So the family paid off some death duties by giving manuscripts,
etc
| to the Bibliot=E8que Nationale.
| Probably Arthur had access to these through the Countess.
| Presumably, her family did not have the same piorities as she
did.
|
| Anthony
|
|
|
| Le 27 mars 08 =E0 17:44, wolfgang wiehe a ecrit :
|
| >
| > I bought a copy some years ago and i paid less than 100 Euro
for it in a
| > antiquarian book seller in berlin. There was a surprize in
the book (i
| > didn't know it before):
| > Look at
| > http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/2345788335/
| > Greetings
| > Wolfgang, a proud owner!
| >
| >
| >
| > To get on or off this list see list information at
| > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
|
|
| --
|

[LUTE] Re: plucked bass

[Eugene C. Braig IV]

At 07:46 AM 3/27/2008, Brad McEwen wrote:
>   Has some newe reseaarch brought something to light that will cause all 
> previous books on the subject to now be incorrect and outdated?  All 
> museums will have to recatalogue and rename the mandoras in their collections?

Many collections catalogue their 5- and 6-course mandolini as "mandora", 
"pandourina", or similar and frankly should re-catalogue them.

Best,
Eugene 



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[LUTE] Re: plucked bass...and mandolins

[Eugene C. Braig IV]

At 08:05 AM 3/27/2008, Brad McEwen wrote:
>   For me, it is sufficient to say that the Renaissance instrument was 
> called mandora, mandore, mandour, etc...

I think there were even occasional occurrences of really wacky spellings 
like "mandwr."  It's "mandorgen" in Praetorius.  I personally favor 
"mandore" for the wee instrument of the very late renaissance-very early 
baroque simply because it has period precedent, seems to be the current 
status quo, and minimizes confusion amongst the bulk of the lute crowd who 
now seem to favor "mandora" for the later, baritonier thingy.


>...and that a German lute like instrument of lower pitch arose in the 18th 
>C..  although using the same name, was a completely differnt 
>animal.  Perhaps the name mandore had fallen out of use by that time and 
>was replaced by the term mandolin or mandolino?

By the time "mandolino"/"mandola" was commonplace, it referred to a 
similarly small instrument with a very different standard tuning than the 
early sources for mandore (or whatever).  Standard stringing for 
mandolino/mandola was wholly in courses of paired strings (mostly five or 
six by the time the instrument was popular and had a body of dedicated 
repertoire) with a typical tuning of [g]-b-e'-a'-d''-g'', all in 
unisons.  If curious, here's an illustrative page I helped put together for 
Mandolin Cafe 
.  The 6-course 
instruments with a sickle-shaped pegbox and fixed, lute-like bridge are the 
type I'm describing here...and not referred to as "mandore", even in 
mid-18th-c. Parisian tutors.


>Certainly the large four course bass mando instrument that I referred to 
>made in Naples was definitely called a Mandola.  Presumably the term 
>mandola was no longer in use for the Renaissance mandor(e, a, etc) by that 
>time, either.

The 4-course instruments with floating bridges pictured on the link I've 
offered are early incarnations of the modern mandolin (i.e., the 
"Neapolitan mandolin" or "mandolino napoletano"), which I'm guessing is of 
the same family of the large "mandolas" you are discussing, Brad (perhaps 
the Gaetano Vinaccia dated 1744 currently in Belgium?).  Unfortunately, I 
missed some of this conversation (perhaps my university's sometimes 
overzealous spam filter is to blame).  I don't think it is at all clear 
that these were "definitely" called "mandola" outside of modern references 
that speculate about them (Morey, e.g.).  While a couple/few instruments 
exist (in addition to the Vinaccia, I know of another by di Maria of the 
same generation), they seem to be conspicuously absent from the period's 
published literature, and nobody seems to have any idea of their standard 
tuning.  They seem too large to me for the straight 5ths typical to other 
members of the Neapolitan family.

Best,
Eugene 



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[LUTE] Re: Heinichen for theorbo

[Jeffrey Noonan]

Hi, David--
   
  I was asked to play the piece with a student ensemble a couple years ago. 
They all played modern instruments at 440. I played a gut-strung theorbo in A 
that was generally tuned at 415. I ended up rewriting the part just so I had 
something to play--if I'd had my way, I would perhaps have used an archlute or 
even a largish lute, but the director insisted on the theorbo (looked cool!). 
As I recall, the middle movement was not bad, but the outer movements were very 
active way up the neck. 
   
  Anyway, it was a very unpleasant musical experience and not something I want 
to do again soon. Based on my experience, I'm convinced that the part was not 
written for a theorbo in A with top two strings in re-entrant tuning.
   
  Good luck.
   
  jeff



LGS-Europe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  I'm to play the Heinichen concerto in D for flute, oboe, violins, cello, 
theorbo and bc (Seibel 226) next month. Anybody ever did this before and 
remember what instrument he/she used? It says tiorba in the autograph. The 
range is A1 till a'. C and C# are both needed, as are E and E-flat, F and 
F#, and G and G#. Looks more like gallichon than theorbo as we know it, I'd 
say?

Another calcedono sighting on my music stand this weekend, by the way, in 
the Telemann Kantate zum zweiten Osterfeiertag 'Herr! ich bin beide'. Just 
playing along with the continuo, no obligato part.

David




David van Ooijen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.davidvanooijen.nl
 




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[LUTE] Fingering question

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Gernot,

There is a tendency in 16th-century sources to intabulate notes as close
to the nut as possible, even if this seems impractical to us today.
Scales tended to go up and down the 1st course, rather than across the
neck staying in the same position. I have in mind the end of Francesco
da Milano's La Compagna (Ness 34) for an octave scale along the 1st
course, as opposed to a less common scale across the fingerboard as in
the Board Lute Book version of Dowland's King of Denmark Galliard.

In the example you give, it can't be a question of temperament, if only
because g3 occurs two positions earlier than b2.

I think these things come about, at least sometimes, because the
intabulator did not think through all the possible positions for any one
note, and simply opted for the lowest possible position without too much
thought. Tone quality, falseness of strings, temperament, and such like
may sometimes have been factors, but it could also be that we try to
read too much into it. Although Thomas Robinson's tutor was intended for
learners, a lot of his music is unnecessarily awkward to play, and this
is a good example.

High positions on low strings is a feature of the divisions of John
Johnson, but it seems that he did this to explore the tonal colour of
courses strung in octaves. In circumstances such as that, I think it
would be wrong to change what he wrote.

Where there are several sources of a particular piece, you sometimes
find that notes are notated slightly differently, so our forebears were
wont to change the position of notes to suit themselves. On rare
occasions I would be inclined to do likewise, but only with good reason.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message-
From: Gernot Hilger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 26 March 2008 21:46
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Fingering question

Dear list,

today, I played through the freshly downloaded Schoole of Musicke and  
stumbled about an issue which has been bothering me for a while. There  
are quite often fingerings which are unnecessarily difficult and  
impede the flow of the music. For example the penultimate measure in  
the Spanish Pavin is

e-f-h---f-
f-f-a-b---
f-g---
--
--a---a---
a---e-

It would be much easier and smoother to play as

e-f-h---f-
f-f-a-
f-g---g---
--
--a---a---
a---e-

How does everybody deal with this? I just change the tab, always  
wondering why virtuoso lutenists would choose the more difficult way.  
Is this because of some meantone temperament issues?

Gernot





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[LUTE] WG: Charles Mouton lute music EL 082326

[wolfgang wiehe]

 
-Ursprungliche Nachricht-
Von: E lucevan le stelle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Gesendet: Sonntag, 23. Marz 2008 13:34
An: E lucevan le stelle
Betreff: Charles Mouton lute music EL 082326


Charles Mouton lute music by Franco Pavan EL 082326

Dear friends of Music, 
we are very proud to present you a wonderful recording:
http://www.elucevanlestelle.com/le-mouton-fabuleux/
Best regards from 
E lucevan le stelle Records


--

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[LUTE] Re: Nina bass line

[David Tayler]

Peter,
This is terrific, thanks.
I'm enjoying Scherzi Musicali in color from Denmark!
That would be brown, of course.
Thanks so much,
dt



At 07:41 AM 3/27/2008, you wrote:
>I've started an database of online facsimile sources of lute and closely
>related books, drawing heavily on links posted to this list and the French
>list over the last few months.
>
>http://creator.zoho.com/peterskeeter/
>
>Actually there are two databases:
>1) Online sources of lute and early
>music,
>i.e. websites
>2) Lute and early music
>books,
>linking directly to individual books on these sites (Spinacino, Barley, Blow
>..)
>
>The good thing about these databases, if I've set them up correctly, is that
>anyone can add to them.  So if you know of other online gems out there,
>please add them to the list!
>
>Peter
>
>On 24/03/2008, David Tayler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > I think the advantage to putting this info online, not just for
> > musicologists with Case X access (the x files),
> > is for the average musician/voice student who has ben fed dreadful
> > versions of pieces--
> > pieces that could provide a terrific reason to study early music.
> > Also, by putting it online, there would be a kind of reality check to
> > save voice students from their teachers.
> > To be clear, I advocate a free edition, with some alternate and
> > usable accompaniments, with free or online facsimiles to open a
> > discussion.
> > There must be thousands of people who could be encouraged to study
> > lute & continuo songs.
> >
> > dt
> >
> >
> > At 03:05 AM 3/24/2008, you wrote:
> > >You've got a Xerox of the score in Modena, David.
> > >
> > >UC Berkeley Music f M2.8.R47 T7 UCB Case X
> > >
> > >And one of the librettos is on-line in digital format if you
> > >subscribe to Gale.
> > >
> > >As far as I know, the song first appears with piano accompaniment
> > >almost 100 years after the opera. Attr. to Pergolesi. There are
> > >surely hundreds of
> > >editions of that Italian Anthology.  And of course it has since
> > >been a favorite of every voice teacher.  I used to blanche when I
> > >sat on performance juries and saw the student with that
> > >d -- able Italian Anthology under arm.  You knew you were
> > >in for "Nina" or "Amarilli, mia bella."  With
> > >appropriate gestures.
> > >=AJN (Boston, Mass.)=
> > >Free Download of the Week
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
>
>
>
>--
>Peter Martin
>Belle Serre
>La Caulie
>81100 Castres
>France
>tel: 0033 5 63 35 68 46
>e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>web: www.silvius.co.uk
>http://absolute81.blogspot.com/
>www.myspace.com/sambuca999
>www.myspace.com/chuckerbutty
>
>--

[LUTE] Re: G. de Chambure

[Anthony Hind]

Jean-Marie
	I am sorry that I missed tha exhibition. I am happy to hear that it  
was the Countess' wish to leave the documents, to the state, and not  
just the family throwing them out, as it were.

Datations are often just that, and not a true and deliberate gift.
Best
Anthony

Le 27 mars 08 à 19:04, Jean-Marie Poirier a écrit :


Anthony,

I remember there was an exhibition of the Chambure collection at  
the Bibliothèque Nationale (not yet de France at the time) in 1980.  
I still have the complete catalogue of this extraordinary  
collection of music - printed and manuscripts - and instruments. A  
real treasure indeed, more than 100 pages descriptions !


We can certainly be grateful to the Countess for gathering this and  
leaving it all to the BNF, although, sadly, I heard, from musicians  
who knew her well and went to play or sing for her regularly at her  
"hôtel particulier", using her instruments, that she lent some of  
these instruments to some people, who never gave them back... but  
she never did a move to get them back.  A very generous person,  
indeed.


Best,

Jean-Marie

=== 27-03-2008 18:45:36 ===


Wolgang
I just found this, in the records of Biblioth=E8que nationale de
France. Charte documentaire des acquisitions.

These are manuscripts received in stead of death duties, the Countess
must have had quite a collection of manuscripts:

"Les dations ont enrichi considerablement les collections :  
Genevi=E8ve

Thibault de Chambure en 1978
(manuscrits, recueils, editions des XVIe au XVIIIe si=E8cles), la
succession Debussy-de Tinan, les manuscrits
d'Henri Sauguet, la dation Francis Poulenc en 1998, la dation Andre
Jolivet en 2002."

"Le Departement acquiert les livres de theorie musicale et les livres
sur la musique. L'objectif est de completer
les editions publiees en France, mais aussi de combler certaines
lacunes d'editions etrang=E8res selectionnees, en
raison de l'absence d'acquisitions etrang=E8res avant la creation du
Departement (Allemagne, Italie, annees
1910-1940). Par exemple dans l'une des ventes de la collection de
Chambure en 1995 : Stefano Pesori,
Toccate de chitarriglia, Verona, ca 1650, Roland de Lassus, Jeremiae
prophetae..., Paris, 1586, Giovanni Battista
Bassani, La sirene amorosa, Venise, 1699 et des symphonies
concertantes de Guenin et Breval =E0 la vente
Mongredien en 1997."
www.bnf.fr/pages/infopro/collectionspro/pdf/Charte_coll.pdf


So the family paid off some death duties by giving manuscripts, etc
to the Bibliot=E8que Nationale.
Probably Arthur had access to these through the Countess.
Presumably, her family did not have the same piorities as she did.

Anthony



Le 27 mars 08 =E0 17:44, wolfgang wiehe a ecrit :


I bought a copy some years ago and i paid less than 100 Euro  for  
it in a
antiquarian book seller in berlin. There was a surprize in the  
book (i

didn't know it before):
Look at
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/2345788335/
Greetings
Wolfgang, a proud owner!



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--



= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://poirierjm.free.fr
27-03-2008
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[LUTE] Re: Heinichen for theorbo

[magnus andersson]

there's also a recording with
musica antiqua Köln, featuring Michael Ducker on an
instrument which sounds like a d-minor lute.

can be found on itunes, Heinichen Dresden Concerti.


/
Magnus
--- Are Vidar Boye Hansen
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > I'm to play the Heinichen concerto in D for flute,
> oboe, violins, cello, 
> > theorbo and bc (Seibel 226) next month. Anybody
> ever did this before and 
> > remember what instrument he/she used? It says
> tiorba in the autograph. The 
> > range is A1 till a'. C and C# are both needed, as
> are E and E-flat, F and F#, 
> > and G and G#. Looks more like gallichon than
> theorbo as we know it, I'd say?
> 
> I have heard that they have been recorded by Timothy
> Burris on a German 
> theorbo in d-minor tuning.
> 
> 
> Are
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
>
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 



  

Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

[LUTE] Re: Heinichen for theorbo

[Are Vidar Boye Hansen]

> I'm to play the Heinichen concerto in D for flute, oboe, violins, cello, 
> theorbo and bc (Seibel 226) next month. Anybody ever did this before and 
> remember what instrument he/she used? It says tiorba in the autograph. The 
> range is A1 till a'. C and C# are both needed, as are E and E-flat, F and F#, 
> and G and G#. Looks more like gallichon than theorbo as we know it, I'd say?

I have heard that they have been recorded by Timothy Burris on a German 
theorbo in d-minor tuning.


Are



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[LUTE] G. de Chambure

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

Anthony,

I remember there was an exhibition of the Chambure collection at the 
Bibliothèque Nationale (not yet de France at the time) in 1980. I still have 
the complete catalogue of this extraordinary collection of music - printed and 
manuscripts - and instruments. A real treasure indeed, more than 100 pages 
descriptions !

We can certainly be grateful to the Countess for gathering this and leaving it 
all to the BNF, although, sadly, I heard, from musicians who knew her well and 
went to play or sing for her regularly at her "hôtel particulier", using her 
instruments, that she lent some of these instruments to some people, who never 
gave them back... but she never did a move to get them back.  A very generous 
person, indeed.

Best,

Jean-Marie

=== 27-03-2008 18:45:36 ===

>Wolgang
>   I just found this, in the records of Biblioth=E8que nationale de  
>France. Charte documentaire des acquisitions.
>
>These are manuscripts received in stead of death duties, the Countess  
>must have had quite a collection of manuscripts:
>
>"Les dations ont enrichi considerablement les collections : Genevi=E8ve  
>Thibault de Chambure en 1978
>(manuscrits, recueils, editions des XVIe au XVIIIe si=E8cles), la  
>succession Debussy-de Tinan, les manuscrits
>d'Henri Sauguet, la dation Francis Poulenc en 1998, la dation Andre  
>Jolivet en 2002."
>
>"Le Departement acquiert les livres de theorie musicale et les livres  
>sur la musique. L'objectif est de completer
>les editions publiees en France, mais aussi de combler certaines  
>lacunes d'editions etrang=E8res selectionnees, en
>raison de l'absence d'acquisitions etrang=E8res avant la creation du  
>Departement (Allemagne, Italie, annees
>1910-1940). Par exemple dans l'une des ventes de la collection de  
>Chambure en 1995 : Stefano Pesori,
>Toccate de chitarriglia, Verona, ca 1650, Roland de Lassus, Jeremiae  
>prophetae..., Paris, 1586, Giovanni Battista
>Bassani, La sirene amorosa, Venise, 1699 et des symphonies  
>concertantes de Guenin et Breval =E0 la vente
>Mongredien en 1997."
>www.bnf.fr/pages/infopro/collectionspro/pdf/Charte_coll.pdf
>
>
>So the family paid off some death duties by giving manuscripts, etc  
>to the Bibliot=E8que Nationale.
>Probably Arthur had access to these through the Countess.
>Presumably, her family did not have the same piorities as she did.
>
>Anthony
>
>
>
>Le 27 mars 08 =E0 17:44, wolfgang wiehe a ecrit :
>>
>> I bought a copy some years ago and i paid less than 100 Euro  for it in a
>> antiquarian book seller in berlin. There was a surprize in the book (i
>> didn't know it before):
>> Look at
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/2345788335/
>> Greetings
>> Wolfgang, a proud owner!
>>
>>
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>--
>

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
  
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://poirierjm.free.fr
27-03-2008 
Nˆ¶‰è®‡ß¶¬–+-±ç¥ŠËbú+™«b¢v­†Ûiÿü0ÁËj»f¢ëayÛ¿Á·?–ë^iÙ¢Ÿø§uìa¶i

[LUTE] Heinichen for theorbo

[LGS-Europe]

I'm to play the Heinichen concerto in D for flute, oboe, violins, cello, 
theorbo and bc (Seibel 226) next month. Anybody ever did this before and 
remember what instrument he/she used? It says tiorba in the autograph. The 
range is A1 till a'. C and C# are both needed, as are E and E-flat, F and 
F#, and G and G#. Looks more like gallichon than theorbo as we know it, I'd 
say?


Another calcedono sighting on my music stand this weekend, by the way, in 
the Telemann Kantate zum zweiten Osterfeiertag 'Herr! ich bin beide'. Just 
playing along with the continuo, no obligato part.


David




David van Ooijen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.davidvanooijen.nl
 





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[LUTE] Re: Buying Francesco da Milano - Ness

[Anthony Hind]

Wolgang
I just found this, in the records of Biblioth=E8que nationale de  
France. Charte documentaire des acquisitions.

These are manuscripts received in stead of death duties, the Countess  
must have had quite a collection of manuscripts:

"Les dations ont enrichi considerablement les collections : Genevi=E8ve  
Thibault de Chambure en 1978
(manuscrits, recueils, editions des XVIe au XVIIIe si=E8cles), la  
succession Debussy-de Tinan, les manuscrits
d'Henri Sauguet, la dation Francis Poulenc en 1998, la dation Andre  
Jolivet en 2002."

"Le Departement acquiert les livres de theorie musicale et les livres  
sur la musique. L'objectif est de completer
les editions publiees en France, mais aussi de combler certaines  
lacunes d'editions etrang=E8res selectionnees, en
raison de l'absence d'acquisitions etrang=E8res avant la creation du  
Departement (Allemagne, Italie, annees
1910-1940). Par exemple dans l'une des ventes de la collection de  
Chambure en 1995 : Stefano Pesori,
Toccate de chitarriglia, Verona, ca 1650, Roland de Lassus, Jeremiae  
prophetae..., Paris, 1586, Giovanni Battista
Bassani, La sirene amorosa, Venise, 1699 et des symphonies  
concertantes de Guenin et Breval =E0 la vente
Mongredien en 1997."
www.bnf.fr/pages/infopro/collectionspro/pdf/Charte_coll.pdf


So the family paid off some death duties by giving manuscripts, etc  
to the Bibliot=E8que Nationale.
Probably Arthur had access to these through the Countess.
Presumably, her family did not have the same piorities as she did.

Anthony



Le 27 mars 08 =E0 17:44, wolfgang wiehe a ecrit :
>
> I bought a copy some years ago and i paid less than 100 Euro  for it in a
> antiquarian book seller in berlin. There was a surprize in the book (i
> didn't know it before):
> Look at
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/2345788335/
> Greetings
> Wolfgang, a proud owner!
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


--

[LUTE] Re: Buying Francesco da Milano - Ness

[Anthony Hind]

Wolgang
I just found this, in the records of Biblioth=E8que nationale de  
France. Charte documentaire des acquisitions.
www.bnf.fr/pages/infopro/collectionspro/pdf/Charte_coll.pdf

These are manuscripts received in stead of death duties, the Countess  
must have had quite a collection of manuscripts:

"Les dations ont enrichi considerablement les collections : Genevi=E8ve  
Thibault de Chambure en 1978
(manuscrits, recueils, editions des XVIe au XVIIIe si=E8cles), la  
succession Debussy-de Tinan, les manuscrits
d'Henri Sauguet, la dation Francis Poulenc en 1998, la dation Andre  
Jolivet en 2002."

"Le Departement acquiert les livres de theorie musicale et les livres  
sur la musique. L'objectif est de completer
les editions publiees en France, mais aussi de combler certaines  
lacunes d'editions etrang=E8res selectionnees, en
raison de l'absence d'acquisitions etrang=E8res avant la creation du  
Departement (Allemagne, Italie, annees
1910-1940). Par exemple dans l'une des ventes de la collection de  
Chambure en 1995 : Stefano Pesori,
Toccate de chitarriglia, Verona, ca 1650, Roland de Lassus, Jeremiae  
prophetae..., Paris, 1586, Giovanni Battista
Bassani, La sirene amorosa, Venise, 1699 et des symphonies  
concertantes de Guenin et Breval =E0 la vente
Mongredien en 1997."

So the family paid off some death duties by giving manuscripts, etc  
to the Bibliot=E8que Nationale.
Probably Arthur had access to these through the Countess.
Presumably, her family did not have the same piorities as she did.

Anthony



Le 27 mars 08 =E0 17:44, wolfgang wiehe a ecrit :

>
> I bought a copy some years ago and i paid less than 100 Euro  for it in a
> antiquarian book seller in berlin. There was a surprize in the book (i
> didn't know it before):
> Look at
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/2345788335/
> Greetings
> Wolfgang, a proud owner!
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


--

[LUTE] Re: Lute Resources Online [was] Nina bass line

[Peter Martin]

Thanks both, for this tip about the BNE.  I've edited your entry on the DB
('URL' is for the ridiculously long URL, which will then be hidden, 'Link
name' is for a more user-friendly text link).  I'm adding the books now

P

On 27/03/2008, G. Crona <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Yeah, I added it to Peter's site, but the ridiculously long URL shows.
> Don't
> know what I did wrong, and you cannot correct it after posting. Beware
> that
> the Sanz has some pages missing. I wrote to them about it but received no
> answer. But out of the 20 works, at least Bermudo, Ortiz, Sanz, Milan and
> Cabezon should be relevant.
>
> What I really don't understand is: Why can't these sites make complete
> book
> downloads available? Why must we trudge page after page? Incredible waste
> of
> time IMO. But great that they publish them online of course.
>
>
> G.
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "lute" 
> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 5:38 PM
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Resources Online [was] Nina bass line
>
>
> > >The Spanish National Library has also recently digitized some stuff.
> >
> > Indeed, it's there :
> >
> http://bibliotecadigitalhispanica.bne.es/R/52C5J2SQVIMFILQ4NPRI8PQIQSV6LRDENY7N5P9MFMMM9XLS1U-03856?func=collections-result&collection_id=1108
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Jean-Marie
> >
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > http://poirierjm.free.fr
> > 27-03-2008
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>



-- 
Peter Martin
Belle Serre
La Caulie
81100 Castres
France
tel: 0033 5 63 35 68 46
e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.silvius.co.uk
http://absolute81.blogspot.com/
www.myspace.com/sambuca999
www.myspace.com/chuckerbutty

--

[LUTE] Re: Buying Francesco da Milano - Ness

[wolfgang wiehe]

I bought a copy some years ago and i paid less than 100€ for it in a
antiquarian book seller in berlin. There was a surprize in the book (i
didn´t know it before):
Look at
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/2345788335/
Greetings
Wolfgang, a proud owner!



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Lute Resources Online [was] Nina bass line

[G. Crona]

Yeah, I added it to Peter's site, but the ridiculously long URL shows. Don't 
know what I did wrong, and you cannot correct it after posting. Beware that 
the Sanz has some pages missing. I wrote to them about it but received no 
answer. But out of the 20 works, at least Bermudo, Ortiz, Sanz, Milan and 
Cabezon should be relevant.


What I really don't understand is: Why can't these sites make complete book 
downloads available? Why must we trudge page after page? Incredible waste of 
time IMO. But great that they publish them online of course.


G.

- Original Message - 
From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "lute" 
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 5:38 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Resources Online [was] Nina bass line



>The Spanish National Library has also recently digitized some stuff.

Indeed, it's there : 
http://bibliotecadigitalhispanica.bne.es/R/52C5J2SQVIMFILQ4NPRI8PQIQSV6LRDENY7N5P9MFMMM9XLS1U-03856?func=collections-result&collection_id=1108


Best,

Jean-Marie

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://poirierjm.free.fr
27-03-2008 




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Lute Resources Online [was] Nina bass line

[G. Crona]

That's great news Peter!

Perhaps you could include dissertations as well?

The Spanish National Library has also recently digitized some stuff.

Best

G.

- Original Message - 
From: "Peter Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Lute list" 
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 3:41 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Nina bass line



I've started an database of online facsimile sources of lute and closely
related books, drawing heavily on links posted to this list and the French
list over the last few months.

http://creator.zoho.com/peterskeeter/

Actually there are two databases:
1) Online sources of lute and early
music,
i.e. websites
2) Lute and early music
books,
linking directly to individual books on these sites (Spinacino, Barley, 
Blow

..)

The good thing about these databases, if I've set them up correctly, is 
that

anyone can add to them.  So if you know of other online gems out there,
please add them to the list!

Peter

On 24/03/2008, David Tayler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I think the advantage to putting this info online, not just for
musicologists with Case X access (the x files),
is for the average musician/voice student who has ben fed dreadful
versions of pieces--
pieces that could provide a terrific reason to study early music.
Also, by putting it online, there would be a kind of reality check to
save voice students from their teachers.
To be clear, I advocate a free edition, with some alternate and
usable accompaniments, with free or online facsimiles to open a
discussion.
There must be thousands of people who could be encouraged to study
lute & continuo songs.

dt


At 03:05 AM 3/24/2008, you wrote:
>You've got a Xerox of the score in Modena, David.
>
>UC Berkeley Music f M2.8.R47 T7 UCB Case X
>
>And one of the librettos is on-line in digital format if you
>subscribe to Gale.
>
>As far as I know, the song first appears with piano accompaniment
>almost 100 years after the opera. Attr. to Pergolesi. There are
>surely hundreds of
>editions of that Italian Anthology.  And of course it has since
>been a favorite of every voice teacher.  I used to blanche when I
>sat on performance juries and saw the student with that
>d -- able Italian Anthology under arm.  You knew you were
>in for "Nina" or "Amarilli, mia bella."  With
>appropriate gestures.
>=AJN (Boston, Mass.)=
>Free Download of the Week




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html





--
Peter Martin
Belle Serre
La Caulie
81100 Castres
France
tel: 0033 5 63 35 68 46
e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.silvius.co.uk
http://absolute81.blogspot.com/
www.myspace.com/sambuca999
www.myspace.com/chuckerbutty 

[LUTE] gut top string

[Anthony Hind]

Dear gut users
	I have just had a top string go after 13 weeks (from just before  
Christmas) on my 60 cm 440Hz lute. It lasted a little more than 3  
months (it broke today).
This was a Kathedrale by Nick Baldock. The string did not fray, it  
just seemed a little thin this morning, otherwise it worked perfectly.


I know gut strings do last longer in winter than in summer, but I am  
quite surprised, favourably.

Anthony



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Arthur Ness's da Milano edition

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

Dear all,

Here's a copy of the mail I sent to Harvard University Press a couple of days 
ago, and their reply today.
Maybe, if dozens of lute players worldwide contact them with a similar request, 
it might have some weight in their decision to reprint the da Milano book, or 
not... ?

All the best,

Jean-Marie 


= = = = = = message transmis = = = = = = =

Expéditeur original:Contact HUP 
Adresse expéditeur original: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

>Dear M. Poirier,
>
>Thank you for your interest. I know of no plans at present to reprint
>these books, but we do get requests for them. I have forwarded your
>interest to the appropriate parties, so I am sure someone will be
>looking into it.
>
>Best regards,
>
>David Bryant
>Harvard University Press 
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Jean-Marie Poirier [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 12:30 PM
>To: Contact_HUP
>Subject: Enquiry
>
>Dear sir,
>
>Harvard University Press published the following work way back in 1971 :
>"The Lute Works of Francesco Canova da Milano (1497-1543)", Harvard
>Publications in Music, 3 & 4 (Cambridge: Harvard University Press,
>1971), 2-vols.in one; xxxii + 474 pp.
>
>It has long been out of print and a lot of lute players and
>musicologists worldwide, including me, feel very frustrated not to be
>able to own this precious book and are obliged to rely on photocopies,
>at best... 
>
>Is it really unthinkable, or practically impossible, to reprint this
>book which would be an immense service from such a prestigious academic
>institution as yours to a great number of musicians involved in early
>music throughout the world ?
>
>Thank you for your attention in reading this message.
>
>Yours sincerely,
>
>Jean-Marie Poirier
>(French lute player)
>
>


[EMAIL PROTECTED]
27-03-2008 

[LUTE] Re: Nina bass line

[Peter Martin]

I've started an database of online facsimile sources of lute and closely
related books, drawing heavily on links posted to this list and the French
list over the last few months.

http://creator.zoho.com/peterskeeter/

Actually there are two databases:
1) Online sources of lute and early
music,
i.e. websites
2) Lute and early music
books,
linking directly to individual books on these sites (Spinacino, Barley, Blow
..)

The good thing about these databases, if I've set them up correctly, is that
anyone can add to them.  So if you know of other online gems out there,
please add them to the list!

Peter

On 24/03/2008, David Tayler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I think the advantage to putting this info online, not just for
> musicologists with Case X access (the x files),
> is for the average musician/voice student who has ben fed dreadful
> versions of pieces--
> pieces that could provide a terrific reason to study early music.
> Also, by putting it online, there would be a kind of reality check to
> save voice students from their teachers.
> To be clear, I advocate a free edition, with some alternate and
> usable accompaniments, with free or online facsimiles to open a
> discussion.
> There must be thousands of people who could be encouraged to study
> lute & continuo songs.
>
> dt
>
>
> At 03:05 AM 3/24/2008, you wrote:
> >You've got a Xerox of the score in Modena, David.
> >
> >UC Berkeley Music f M2.8.R47 T7 UCB Case X
> >
> >And one of the librettos is on-line in digital format if you
> >subscribe to Gale.
> >
> >As far as I know, the song first appears with piano accompaniment
> >almost 100 years after the opera. Attr. to Pergolesi. There are
> >surely hundreds of
> >editions of that Italian Anthology.  And of course it has since
> >been a favorite of every voice teacher.  I used to blanche when I
> >sat on performance juries and saw the student with that
> >d -- able Italian Anthology under arm.  You knew you were
> >in for "Nina" or "Amarilli, mia bella."  With
> >appropriate gestures.
> >=AJN (Boston, Mass.)=
> >Free Download of the Week
>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>



-- 
Peter Martin
Belle Serre
La Caulie
81100 Castres
France
tel: 0033 5 63 35 68 46
e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.silvius.co.uk
http://absolute81.blogspot.com/
www.myspace.com/sambuca999
www.myspace.com/chuckerbutty

--

[LUTE] Re: plucked bass

[Brad McEwen]

Is that too early for a lute-guitar?
   
  Brad

Rob MacKillop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  And may also account for Wagner's 'lute' in Die Meistersinger. The opening
notes are a rising arpeggio of EADGBE - a mandora in E?

Rob


On 27/03/2008, Frank Nordberg wrote:
>
> Martyn Hodgson wrote:
>
> > The 18thC Mandora (aka Gallichon - various cognates) was also tuned
> > in E as well as D.
>
> This of course means that the modern guitar tuning was already common -
> or at least fairly well known - as a lute tuning before it was used for
> the guitar.
>
> Among other things that gives a whole new perspective to the late
> 19th/early 20th C. German "Wandervogel-laute." Usually it's been
> shrugged off as just a silly attempt to give the guitar some fake
> pedigree by making it look like a lute. Now it turns out a virtually
> identical instrument existed even as early as the 17th century.
> Is there any evidence of such an instrument from he early 19th century?
>
> > The large continuo gallichon was tuned in A (ie with first course
> as the
> > top line of the bass clef) so 886 cm is by no means too large.
>
> Sorry I misunderstood Barber there. I thought he meant an octave higher.
>
> > Despite Barber's statement that the Schorn is the only extant large
> > galichon in A, there are, in fact, a number of others
>
> Is there any evidence that Tielke made such instruments?
>
> > The Mandora/Gallichon should, however, not be confused with the 18thC
> > Italian lute
>
> Could you tell us a bit more about the difference? The description you
> give seems to fit the galichon fairly well.
>
> > My view is that these are, indeed, simply continuations of the old lute
> > (in nominal G or A depending on local pitch) and played accompanied from
> > staff notation (like the late archlute of Dalla Casa) but without the
> > complication (for amatuers) of the extra open basses.
>
> I would assume that professionals would also occasionally prefer this
> more portable alternative to the arhclute and theorbe.
>
> > I'm currently developing a paper on this.
>
> Please let us know when and where you publish!
>
>
> Frank Nordberg
> http://www.musicaviva.com
> http://stores.ebay.com/Nordbergs-Music-Store?refid=store
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

--


   
-
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.
--

[LUTE] Re: Buying Francesco da Milano - Ness

[Anthony Hind]

David
The Seicento edition seems to come in 6 volumes, but at about  25 Euro  
 
the volume does not seem all that cheap (Unless you only have a  
specific set of Fantasies that you want) compared to what Luca paid  
for the Ness on ebay.

At US $102.50  (considering the rate of the Euro to  Dollar), Luca  
got himself a real bargain, that is, if he does not suffer from  
"dyslexia verticalis" (as I do), brought on by reading Franch and  
Italian tablature on the same day

Here is a link to sciento, which I managed to tease out their web  
page, by searching  "information on the page".  I hope it works for you
http://www.seicentomusic.de/E_LUTE.html

Of course, if we wait, perhaps the pages Mark is giving us through  
the Lute society magazine, will appear in a complete Lute Society  
volume.
Regards
Anthony

Le 27 mars 08 =E0 07:31, LGS-Europe a ecrit :

> I suppose most of us are aware of the Seicento edition of  
> Francesco's Gesammelte Lautenwerke. The content is a Ness copy,  
> Ness order even, in french tab only. It's cheap (ring bound) and  
> available.
>
> David
>
>
> 
> David van Ooijen
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.davidvanooijen.nl
> 
>
> - Original Message - From: "Stephen Arndt"  
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "David Tayler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute- 
> cs.dartmouth.edu" ; "Edward Martin"  
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 3:31 AM
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Buying Francesco da Milano - Ness
>
>
>> Dear Ed and all who have replied,
>>
>> I have 91 files measuring a total of 696 KB, so I could easily  
>> make them available through YouSendIt, which has a 100 MB limit,  
>> and David or Rob could post them on their web sites.
>>
>> Of course, I do not want to violate any copyright laws, and I  
>> don't know whether my French-tab version made from Arthur's  
>> Italian-tab version would do so.
>>
>> Even less do I want to take a chance offending Arthur, who has  
>> rendered such great services to the lute world in particular and  
>> to the music world in general.
>>
>> Perhaps a public forum is not the proper one in which to ask  
>> Arthur's permission, so I shall e-mail him privately.
>>
>> Stephen Arndt
>>
>> - Original Message - From: "Edward Martin"  
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "Stephen Arndt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "David Tayler"  
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu"  
>> 
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 4:52 PM
>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Buying Francesco da Milano - Ness
>>
>>
>>> Dear Stephen,
>>>
>>> Thank you for your generous offer to share these files, but I  
>>> would caution
>>> for you to not do so, without direct consent of Art Ness.  You  
>>> say you made
>>> the Fronimo files from Art's edition, and I believe it could  
>>> potentially be
>>> a copyright infringement.  If you made the files from the  
>>> original sources,
>>> there is no infringement.
>>>
>>> Perhaps Howard Posner could advise you on that.  Art owns his  
>>> work and I
>>> would not "assume" it is OK if he does not object.  Out of  
>>> legal , and more
>>> so courtesy, please get Art's permission before you distribute  
>>> the files.
>>>
>>> ed
>>>
>>>  At 03:27 PM 3/26/2008 -0500, Stephen Arndt wrote:
 David,

 I don't know whether I can send a folder through YouSendIt or only
 individual files. I am at work now, but I shall check this  
 evening when I
 get home. If not, I could perhaps burn them onto a CD and mail  
 it to you
 to upload. Others have mentioned the Fronimo Group and Wayne's  
 site also.

 I made my own Fronimo files from Arthur Ness's work a few years  
 ago, and I
 would be happy to make them publically available to others, but  
 only so
 long as Arthur has no objections. So, Arthur, I know that you  
 read this
 list; if you have any objections to making a Fronimo version of  
 these
 pieces available, please tell me. Otherwise, I shall assume that  
 you do
 not object.

 Thank you,

 Stephen

 -Original Message-
 >From: David Tayler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 >Sent: Mar 26, 2008 2:39 PM
 >To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" 
 >Subject: [LUTE] Re: Buying Francesco da Milano - Ness
 >
 >That sounds like a great and important resource, I would be  
 happy to
 >host them either on my site or the new Lutes West site.
 >You can send them to me using yousendit if you like, it is a  
 free ftp
 service
 >Also, if you upload to yousendit, the files will be available for
 >anyone on the list for several weeks.
 >
 >dt
 >
 >
 >At 01:32 PM 3/26/2008, you wrote:
 >>I have all the Ricercars and Fantasias in French tab using  
 Fronimo.
 >>Unfortunately, each one is a separate Fronimo file. I would
 >>certainly be willing to make it available if I can find a  
 technical
 >>way of doing so. (I

[LUTE] Re: plucked bass

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

Hi Brad,

If you can find your way around in French have a look at this web page : 
http://le.luth.free.fr/mandore/index.html

 I put it up a few weeks ago because I have developped a great interest in the 
French mandore (17tn century) and I am expecting my first instrument in the 
next few days !

Best,

Jean-Marie

PS : if French is too much for you you can still have a look at the pictures 
;-). You'll realise that the French mandore was NOT a bass intrument, no way !

=== 27-03-2008 12:46:16 ===

>Rob:
>   
>  Tht's news to me.  I have always read that the instruments referred to as  
> mandoras, (including the instrument that you call the mandore) are what you 
> call the "small treble'like lute" .  The Royal Ontario Museum has the small 
> treble lute listed as a mandora.  So does the Broadside Band, Ron McFarlane, 
> and  otherrecordings.  I don't know how many books I have seen over the years 
> that call mandores mandoras.  Usually it is stated that mandora is the 
> Italian name and mandore is the French.
>
>  Every book I have every read on the subject has stated that the terms 
> mandore, mandora and mandola were interchangeable for the same instrument 
> that you have recorded with.
>   
>  What was the period for this German Mandora?  The period of usage of the 
> term mandora in the context that I know was the Renaissance.
>   
>  Has some newe reseaarch brought something to light that will cause all 
> previous books on the subject to now be incorrect and outdated?  All museums 
> will have to recatalogue and rename the mandoras in their collections?
>   
>  Although I do not, as previously stated, have academic credentials, I feell 
> that I'm reasonably well informed on this subject and I ahve never heard of 
> this lower pitched German mandora.
>   
>  Brad
>   
>  
>Rob MacKillop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Sorry, Brad, but you are not quite correct. I recorded music for the 
> mandore, not the mandora. The former is the small treble-like lute, four or 
> five courses, while the latter is a large German lute of various pitches and 
> numbers of strings. The mandora in E was the same tuning as the modern 
> guitar, but more often appeared down a tone in D, and often again in eight 
> courses. 
>   
>  Rob
>
>
>   
>-
>Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.
>--
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
  
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://poirierjm.free.fr
27-03-2008 

[LUTE] Re: plucked bass

[Brad McEwen]

So this instrument really is a Lute.
   
  Brad

Thomas Schall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  The german mandora is a development of the late baroque period and it's home 
was northern italy, austria, bohemia and the southern parts of germany. 
Known composers are Brescianello, Schiffelhotz and others.

You'll get an image when watching David van Edwards site: 
http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/two.htm#mandoras
(pictures of one instruments here: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/37c.htm)

Best Thomas


- Original Message - 
From: "Brad McEwen" 
To: "Rob MacKillop" 
Cc: "Doc Rossi" ; ; "cittern 
list" 
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 12:46 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: plucked bass


> Rob:
>
> Tht's news to me. I have always read that the instruments referred to as 
> mandoras, (including the instrument that you call the mandore) are what 
> you call the "small treble'like lute" . The Royal Ontario Museum has the 
> small treble lute listed as a mandora. So does the Broadside Band, Ron 
> McFarlane, and otherrecordings. I don't know how many books I have seen 
> over the years that call mandores mandoras. Usually it is stated that 
> mandora is the Italian name and mandore is the French.
>
> Every book I have every read on the subject has stated that the terms 
> mandore, mandora and mandola were interchangeable for the same instrument 
> that you have recorded with.
>
> What was the period for this German Mandora? The period of usage of the 
> term mandora in the context that I know was the Renaissance.
>
> Has some newe reseaarch brought something to light that will cause all 
> previous books on the subject to now be incorrect and outdated? All 
> museums will have to recatalogue and rename the mandoras in their 
> collections?
>
> Although I do not, as previously stated, have academic credentials, I 
> feell that I'm reasonably well informed on this subject and I ahve never 
> heard of this lower pitched German mandora.
>
> Brad
>
>
> Rob MacKillop wrote:
> Sorry, Brad, but you are not quite correct. I recorded music for the 
> mandore, not the mandora. The former is the small treble-like lute, four 
> or five courses, while the latter is a large German lute of various 
> pitches and numbers of strings. The mandora in E was the same tuning as 
> the modern guitar, but more often appeared down a tone in D, and often 
> again in eight courses.
>
> Rob
>
>
>
> -
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[LUTE] Re: plucked bass

[Brad McEwen]

Rob:
   
  Well, I don't know Donald Gill.  It seems to me that it's a similar 
discussion to "What is a cittern?"  augghhh...
   
  For me, it is sufficient to say that the Renaissance instrument was called 
mandora, mandore, mandour, etc and that a German lute like instrument of lower 
pitch arose in the 18th C..  although using the same name, was a completely 
differnt animal.  Perhaps the name mandore had fallen out of use by that time 
and was replaced by the term mandolin or mandolino?.  Certainly the large four 
course bass mando instrument that I referred to made in Naples was definitely 
called a Mandola.  Presumably the term mandola was no longer in use for the 
Renaissance mandor(e, a, etc) by that time, either.
   
  I suppose it would also help if the German instrument could be referred to 
only as a gallichon.
   
  brad

Rob MacKillop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Brad,
   
  You are right - there are many, many references to a mandora as mandore and 
vice versa. It has been and continues to be an area of much confusion. I 
personally started differentiating them (small mandore, large mandora) after 
reading Donald Gill's plea to do so in the Lute Society Journal (or Lute News - 
can't recall the year or issue). To make matters worse, the large German 
mandora is also known as a gallichon, itself having various spellings. And to 
cap it all, on my Flowers of the Forest CD I refered to my small mandore as a 
mandour (for a dour man). 
   
  I wouldn't take a museum attribution as gospel...they can often be wrong. I 
suggest following the gospel according to Gill.
   
  Rob
  

 
  On 27/03/2008, Brad McEwen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Rob:
   
  Tht's news to me.  I have always read that the instruments referred to as  
mandoras, (including the instrument that you call the mandore) are what you 
call the "small treble'like lute" .  The Royal Ontario Museum has the small 
treble lute listed as a mandora.  So does the Broadside Band, Ron McFarlane, 
and  otherrecordings.  I don't know how many books I have seen over the years 
that call mandores mandoras.  Usually it is stated that mandora is the Italian 
name and mandore is the French.
 
  Every book I have every read on the subject has stated that the terms 
mandore, mandora and mandola were interchangeable for the same instrument that 
you have recorded with.
   
  What was the period for this German Mandora?  The period of usage of the term 
mandora in the context that I know was the Renaissance.
   
  Has some newe reseaarch brought something to light that will cause all 
previous books on the subject to now be incorrect and outdated?  All museums 
will have to recatalogue and rename the mandoras in their collections?
   
  Although I do not, as previously stated, have academic credentials, I feell 
that I'm reasonably well informed on this subject and I ahve never heard of 
this lower pitched German mandora.
   
  Brad
   
  
Rob MacKillop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Sorry, Brad, but you are not quite correct. I recorded music for the 
mandore, not the mandora. The former is the small treble-like lute, four or 
five courses, while the latter is a large German lute of various pitches and 
numbers of strings. The mandora in E was the same tuning as the modern guitar, 
but more often appeared down a tone in D, and often again in eight courses. 
   
  Rob


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[LUTE] Re: plucked bass

[Thomas Schall]

The german mandora is a development of the late baroque period and it's home 
was northern italy, austria, bohemia and the southern parts of germany. 
Known composers are Brescianello, Schiffelhotz and others.


You'll get an image when watching David van Edwards site: 
http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/two.htm#mandoras

(pictures of one instruments here: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/37c.htm)

Best Thomas


- Original Message - 
From: "Brad McEwen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Rob MacKillop" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Doc Rossi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "cittern 
list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 12:46 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: plucked bass



Rob:

 Tht's news to me.  I have always read that the instruments referred to as 
mandoras, (including the instrument that you call the mandore) are what 
you call the "small treble'like lute" .  The Royal Ontario Museum has the 
small treble lute listed as a mandora.  So does the Broadside Band, Ron 
McFarlane, and  otherrecordings.  I don't know how many books I have seen 
over the years that call mandores mandoras.  Usually it is stated that 
mandora is the Italian name and mandore is the French.


 Every book I have every read on the subject has stated that the terms 
mandore, mandora and mandola were interchangeable for the same instrument 
that you have recorded with.


 What was the period for this German Mandora?  The period of usage of the 
term mandora in the context that I know was the Renaissance.


 Has some newe reseaarch brought something to light that will cause all 
previous books on the subject to now be incorrect and outdated?  All 
museums will have to recatalogue and rename the mandoras in their 
collections?


 Although I do not, as previously stated, have academic credentials, I 
feell that I'm reasonably well informed on this subject and I ahve never 
heard of this lower pitched German mandora.


 Brad


Rob MacKillop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
   Sorry, Brad, but you are not quite correct. I recorded music for the 
mandore, not the mandora. The former is the small treble-like lute, four 
or five courses, while the latter is a large German lute of various 
pitches and numbers of strings. The mandora in E was the same tuning as 
the modern guitar, but more often appeared down a tone in D, and often 
again in eight courses.


 Rob



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[LUTE] Re: plucked bass

[Brad McEwen]

Rob:
   
  Tht's news to me.  I have always read that the instruments referred to as  
mandoras, (including the instrument that you call the mandore) are what you 
call the "small treble'like lute" .  The Royal Ontario Museum has the small 
treble lute listed as a mandora.  So does the Broadside Band, Ron McFarlane, 
and  otherrecordings.  I don't know how many books I have seen over the years 
that call mandores mandoras.  Usually it is stated that mandora is the Italian 
name and mandore is the French.

  Every book I have every read on the subject has stated that the terms 
mandore, mandora and mandola were interchangeable for the same instrument that 
you have recorded with.
   
  What was the period for this German Mandora?  The period of usage of the term 
mandora in the context that I know was the Renaissance.
   
  Has some newe reseaarch brought something to light that will cause all 
previous books on the subject to now be incorrect and outdated?  All museums 
will have to recatalogue and rename the mandoras in their collections?
   
  Although I do not, as previously stated, have academic credentials, I feell 
that I'm reasonably well informed on this subject and I ahve never heard of 
this lower pitched German mandora.
   
  Brad
   
  
Rob MacKillop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Sorry, Brad, but you are not quite correct. I recorded music for the 
mandore, not the mandora. The former is the small treble-like lute, four or 
five courses, while the latter is a large German lute of various pitches and 
numbers of strings. The mandora in E was the same tuning as the modern guitar, 
but more often appeared down a tone in D, and often again in eight courses. 
   
  Rob


   
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[LUTE] Re: my new theorbo! - pics and sound file

[Benjamin Narvey]

Looks smashing, Rob!

Use it very well indeed.

Best,
Benjamin


On 27/03/2008, Rob MacKillop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I brought this home on Tuesday from Malcolm Prior's workshop - a stunning
> theorbo in A, 85cms string length.
>
> I've uploaded a photographic history of its construction, and an mp3 file
> of
> Piccinini's Corrente Prima - a slower than I would have liked performance,
> but I think (hope) you will forgive me! These are difficult instruments to
> get around on, and I haven't had much time:
> http://www.rmguitar.info/theorbo.htm
>
> This was my first commission for Malcolm Prior, but it certainly won't be
> my
> last. He had a 10c ready for shipping to Germany which I fell head over
> heels in love with. Malcolm has had an on/off/on/off building career these
> last few years as he twice became a father, but he is now very much back
> into building lutes, and by all accounts better than ever. I think he has
> reached the top rank of luthiers. He is currently updating his website,
> but
> it is already well worth a visit. Excuse my gushing - I am not on
> commission
> - honest!
>
> Rob MacKillop
> www.rmguitar.info
>
> --
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>



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[LUTE] Re: Fingering question

[Rob MacKillop]

Dear Gernot,

The composer who has caused me the most concern over fingering is Fuenllana.
There are many instances where he could have made life easier for everyone.
I don't know if being blind was an issue here. I doubt it. What occurred to
me is that some odd fingerings could have resulted from the way he possibly
composed the pieces, one voice at a time, setting each voice seperately and
not changing fingering when the second or third voice entered.

It is up to you, as you are the performer, to make your own decision. What
is to be lost and gained by changing the printed fretboard positions? Did
the composer really want a different tone quality by placing it on the
second course instead of the third - they are not so different on most
lutes? If temperament is a possible reason for difficult fingering, is the
composer consistent in his use of those particular frets in that particular
mode or key?

I always try to do what is asked, but will certainly change something if I
feel it helps me articulate my reading of the score. You have to be
convinced about every note you play, otherwise your performance will suffer.
My opinion, of course. There are many others.

Rob

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[LUTE] Re: my new theorbo! - pics and sound file

[Doc Rossi]

I agree with you completely, Rob - Malcolm is really a n excellent  
luthier. The diatonic cittern he made for me is going from strength to  
strength - really coming alive after a year of playing.


Doc Rossi

On Mar 27, 2008, at 11:10 AM, Rob MacKillop wrote:

I brought this home on Tuesday from Malcolm Prior's workshop - a  
stunning

theorbo in A, 85cms string length.

I've uploaded a photographic history of its construction, and an mp3  
file of
Piccinini's Corrente Prima - a slower than I would have liked  
performance,
but I think (hope) you will forgive me! These are difficult  
instruments to

get around on, and I haven't had much time:
http://www.rmguitar.info/theorbo.htm

This was my first commission for Malcolm Prior, but it certainly  
won't be my
last. He had a 10c ready for shipping to Germany which I fell head  
over
heels in love with. Malcolm has had an on/off/on/off building career  
these
last few years as he twice became a father, but he is now very much  
back
into building lutes, and by all accounts better than ever. I think  
he has
reached the top rank of luthiers. He is currently updating his  
website, but
it is already well worth a visit. Excuse my gushing - I am not on  
commission

- honest!

Rob MacKillop
www.rmguitar.info

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[LUTE] Re: Fingering question

[Ron Andrico]

Dear Gernot:
 
I think we all wrestle with fingering questions such as the one you point out.  
Another is in Francesco's 'La Compagna' where we must dash up and down the 
fingerboard on the chanterelle, while it would be much easier to use a higher 
position on a lower course.  
 
I think the original choice for fingering has to do with tone color and 
intonation.  Original gut strings may not have played securely in tune in upper 
positions, although we see many examples of the same in Francesco's music, as 
well as Spinacino, Dalza, and certainly John Johnson.  (One issue with 
Francesco' 'La Compagna' is that the piece may not really be his after all, 
coming from a much later source.)
 
The tablature choice Robinson made 'Spanish pavan' isn't really so bad if you 
think of the tab 'b' on third course as a return to first position.  I'm nearly 
certain the choice was made because the note is exposed against the bass, and 
played in better tune than the same note on the fourth course in the higher 'g' 
position.   You'll notice that when that fourth course 'g' occurs two beats 
earlier, it is buried in a dense chord, and therefore does not call attention 
to itself.
 
By the way, check that final cadence you mentioned against the end of the very 
first strain, where some notes seem to be missing. 
 
Best wishes,
 
Ron Andrico
http://www.mignarda.com
 
> Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 22:46:09 +0100> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> From: 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [LUTE] Fingering question> > Dear list,> > today, 
> I played through the freshly downloaded Schoole of Musicke and > stumbled 
> about an issue which has been bothering me for a while. There > are quite 
> often fingerings which are unnecessarily difficult and > impede the flow of 
> the music. For example the penultimate measure in > the Spanish Pavin is> > 
> e-f-h---f-> f-f-a-b---> f-g---> --> --a---a---> a---e-> > It 
> would be much easier and smoother to play as> > e-f-h---f-> f-f-a-> 
> f-g---g---> --> --a---a---> a---e-> > How does everybody deal 
> with this? I just change the tab, always > wondering why virtuoso lutenists 
> would choose the more difficult way. > Is this because of some meantone 
> temperament issues?> > Gernot> --> > To get on or off this list see list 
> information at> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
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