[LUTE] Double headed 12c

[Mathias Rösel]

Dear Collected Wisdom,

is there someone on the list who is willing to share their experiences
with double headed 12c lutes and related repertoire? I'm just about to
enter that flowery meadow.

What I'm interested in is 
- choice: What made you choose that type of lute (that luthier)?
- measurements: Am I right in assuming that small mensur (about 55 cm
VSL) works better?
- inferentially, luthiers: Who built your instrument and when?
- tunings: which one do you prefer?

Any comments appreciated!
-- 
Mathias



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[LUTE] Just a test

[Bruce O. Bowes]

Seem to be unable to post.  Maybe a conflict with AOL.

Sorry for the "junk mail"

Bruce



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[LUTE] Vimeo Lutes and Early Guitars Video Channel

[Rob MacKillop]

With more people appreciating the audio and visual quality of the Vimeo site
over YouTube, I've created a Vimeo Channel - one page bringing together all
the Vimeo videos with lutes and early guitars. I urge all those of us who
have videos to upload them to Vimeo, then inform me and I'll link them to
the Lutes and Early Guitars Channel, which is:

http://www.vimeo.com/Francesco

Visitors welcome.

Rob MacKillop

--

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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Vimeo Lutes and Early Guitars Video Channel

[Rob MacKillop]

With more people appreciating the audio and visual quality of the Vimeo site
over YouTube, I've created a Vimeo Channel - one page bringing together all
the Vimeo videos with lutes and early guitars. I urge all those of us who
have videos to upload them to Vimeo, then inform me and I'll link them to
the Lutes and Early Guitars Channel, which is:

http://www.vimeo.com/Francesco

Visitors welcome.

Rob MacKillop

--

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[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c

[Edward Martin]

Dear Mathias,

No, I have not gone in that direction.  There seems to be relatively new 
interest in the topic, as Paul Beier is going to record a CD of music of 
Reusner on 12 course.


Just yesterday, I received a new CD by Anthony Bailes.. "Old Gaultiers 
Nigtinghall".  He plays a small Frei, with a Dutch like head, 12 
course.  The recording contains music of Mezangeau, Pierre Gaultier, Thomas 
Mace, and Bouvier.  All pieces are in transitional tunings, and I like it 
very much.


Good luck, with this. It is something I am interested in.

ed



At 06:59 AM 5/30/2008 +, Mathias Rösel wrote:

Dear Collected Wisdom,

is there someone on the list who is willing to share their experiences
with double headed 12c lutes and related repertoire? I'm just about to
enter that flowery meadow.

What I'm interested in is
- choice: What made you choose that type of lute (that luthier)?
- measurements: Am I right in assuming that small mensur (about 55 cm
VSL) works better?
- inferentially, luthiers: Who built your instrument and when?
- tunings: which one do you prefer?

Any comments appreciated!
--
Mathias



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


--
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7:53 PM




Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota  55812
e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
voice:  (218) 728-1202

[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c

[Rob MacKillop]

I used to have a 12c. You can see it on David Van Edwards' site. I bought it
second hand, so had no choice in model, woods, measurements etc. My
understanding is that the larger instruments work better. I didn't have it
long enough to get into the specific repertoire for it, and to be honest,
the repertoire is not as great as that for the 11c or 13c, and it felt like
neither one. But it needed someone to specialise in it to bring out the
riches.

Rob

--

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[LUTE] Re: what are underlights ...

[Doctor Oakroot]

What about Aurora Borealis? Was Campion far enough north to see it?

> .. in Thomas Campion's lute song Author of Light?
>
> Sun and moon,
> stars and underlights I see,
> but all their glorious beams
> are mists and darkness
> being compar'd to thee.
>
> The OED is not really helpfull, suggestion lightning for a much later
> occurence. Anybody out there who can shed some light on this?
>
> David - as ever, greatly appreciative
>
>
>
> 
> David van Ooijen
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.davidvanooijen.nl
> 
>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>


-- 
http://DoctorOakroot.com - Rough-edged songs on quirky homemade guitars.
~ Shroud for the Dead ~ available at http://cdbaby.com/cd/droakroot7

[LUTE] Lute Performances

[Narada]

Greetings all,
 
I came across this whilst looking for info on the Balcarres lute book.
 
http://www.abc.net.au/classic/lute/?WT.srch=1
 &gclid=CPShkeTSzpMCFQyD1QodpEC7jw
 
 
Regards,
 
Neil

--

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[LUTE] Re: what are underlights ...

[wikla]

> I would suggest underlights are the planets and perhaps also the Moon
> (and Sun?). In the world picture of those days all the stars were
> attached to the same, uppermost chrystal sphere, each planet had its own
> chrystal sphere, which were also lower, nearer to the center of the
> universe, our own Earth.

More info:
There are 9 heavens (cielo):
I heaven: the Moon,
II: Mercurius
III: Venus
IV: the Sun
V: Mars
VI: Jupiter
VII: Saturnus
VIII: the Stars
VIII: Primus Motor

As far as I understand, at least I-VIII are attached to a transparent
chrystal sphere... ;-)

Arto



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[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c

[Are Vidar Boye Hansen]

Hi Mathias, Edward and the rest of you,

you might find this article interesting:

http://www.tabulatura.com/Mestweb.htm

I wonder how common these small baroque lutes were...


Are

> Dear Mathias,
>
> No, I have not gone in that direction.  There seems to be relatively new 
> interest in the topic, as Paul Beier is going to record a CD of music of 
> Reusner on 12 course.
>
> Just yesterday, I received a new CD by Anthony Bailes.. "Old Gaultiers 
> Nigtinghall".  He plays a small Frei, with a Dutch like head, 12 course.  The 
> recording contains music of Mezangeau, Pierre Gaultier, Thomas Mace, and 
> Bouvier.  All pieces are in transitional tunings, and I like it very much=2E
>
> Good luck, with this. It is something I am interested in.
>
> ed
>
>
>
> At 06:59 AM 5/30/2008 +, Mathias R=F6sel wrote:
>> Dear Collected Wisdom,
>> 
>> is there someone on the list who is willing to share their experiences
>> with double headed 12c lutes and related repertoire? I'm just about to
>> enter that flowery meadow.
>> 
>> What I'm interested in is
>> - choice: What made you choose that type of lute (that luthier)?
>> - measurements: Am I right in assuming that small mensur (about 55 cm
>> VSL) works better?
>> - inferentially, luthiers: Who built your instrument and when?
>> - tunings: which one do you prefer?
>> 
>> Any comments appreciated!
>> --
>> Mathias
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG.
>> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.4/1473 - Release Date: 5/29/2008 
>> 7:53 PM
>
>
>
> Edward Martin
> 2817 East 2nd Street
> Duluth, Minnesota  55812
> e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> voice:  (218) 728-1202
>
>
>
>
--

[LUTE] Re: what are underlights ...

[wikla]

Hi lutenists,

just in case someone thinks I am a madman, when writing about the world
picture of the composers of our lute music, as I did (see below), I
would like to add something. My list of "heavens" (should it be
"spheres"?) is taken from the preface of  one edition of Dante's
Divina Comedia, Paradiso, written by Daniele Mattalia, ISBN
88-17-12033-2. That medieval view of the universe was still very much in
the beliefs in the times of Campion. And perhaps something of that still
is? At least in Finnish we still say "seventh heaven", when referring
to something very wanted is achieved - well the seventh heaven is in
between the most far off planet Saturnus and the Primus Motor, so very
near the God... And so on. You'll find this kind of references here and
there in our languages actually quite often ...

I think you HAVE to know the world picture of the 1500's and 1600's to
be able to understand the songs and especially the song texts (=poems) 
of those times. One, perhaps humorous example is the word "humour" in
the texts of Dowland songs (and also in the plays of Shakespeare!). It
really does not mean "humor", no, it means the quality of the liquids
in your body, which then also determine your attitude to the life,
including your sense of "humor" in the modern sense.

All the best,

Arto
-
On 5/30/2008, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > I would suggest underlights are the planets and perhaps also the Moon
> > (and Sun?). In the world picture of those days all the stars were
> > attached to the same, uppermost chrystal sphere, each planet had its own
> > chrystal sphere, which were also lower, nearer to the center of the
> > universe, our own Earth.
> 
> More info:
> There are 9 heavens (cielo):
> I heaven: the Moon,
> II: Mercurius
> III: Venus
> IV: the Sun
> V: Mars
> VI: Jupiter
> VII: Saturnus
> VIII: the Stars
> VIII: Primus Motor
> 
> As far as I understand, at least I-VIII are attached to a transparent
> chrystal sphere... ;-)
> 
> Arto



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[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Following up - does one need to play to be a good builder?

[Timothy Motz]

Ehud,
I'm afraid I disagree with Jon.  Considering that even a cheap lute  
of the southeast Asian variety is now running $400-500, buying one  
sounds like an expensive way to learn what not to do.  I think that,  
even buying tuning pegs, materials for the lutes I've built cost  
under $200; probably closer to $150.  And you can build one with a  
minimum of specialized tools in a borrowed workshop space.  All of  
the lutes I've built so far have ribs made of thin wood from a hobby  
store (the next one will be different).  I used a handheld sander to  
thickness the soundboards on most of the ones I've made, and you can  
make an inexpensive thickness gauge to guide you.  Much of the work  
can be done on a kitchen table, as long as you're not married.  Now  
that I'm thoroughly addicted, I've built a thickness sander and am  
investing in other tools, but it was pretty rudimentary at first.   
You can make a couple of lemons and learn more than by playing  
someone else's mistakes.


The Lute Society in England leases lutes.  It's too bad there isn't a  
way to do that in the US.  Of course, I have no idea where you are  
located.


Tim

On May 28, 2008, at 10:57 PM, Ehud Yaniv wrote:





On 5/26/08 1:04 AM, "Jon Murphy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

If I may make a suggestion, try buying a cheap Paki or Indian made  
lute on
EBay. Use it to learn what is wrong with it. In effect that is  
what I did
with my "flat back", I now know what the lute should be. BTW, Ronn  
McFarlane
played my flat back once, after I'd modified it, and declared it "  
a sweet
sounding instrument". I think that might have been a "damning with  
faint

praise", but I'll still accept the compliment. When playing a cheap
instrument one must accept that the tuning may not hold - and that  
one must
at times accept a bit of discord - but it is better to learn the  
basics of
play before venturing into the construction and finding out that  
one has
made some primary errors. I still can enjoy playing my flat back,  
but I

really anticipate the play of my planned lute.

Best, Jon
BTW, I'm primarily a harpist and psaltery player, but the lute is  
a lovely

thing and once I make a good one I'll be torn among the instruments.


Hi Jon,

Thanks for the suggestion.

At one time, I did order a cheap southeast asian flat back lute -  
even had
it ordered and all.  In the end I cancelled it when I read about  
the work
needed to make one of these even remotely playable.  It just seemed  
to be

easier to make one.

That said, I will consider it as a possible option as I sit, think,  
and

plan.

Ehud




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[LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c

[Edward Martin]

Thanks, Are.  I will read it.  But, Bailes' lute is not THAT small.

ed

At 07:22 PM 5/30/2008 +0200, Are Vidar Boye Hansen wrote:

Hi Mathias, Edward and the rest of you,

you might find this article interesting:

http://www.tabulatura.com/Mestweb.htm

I wonder how common these small baroque lutes were...


Are


Dear Mathias,

No, I have not gone in that direction.  There seems to be relatively new 
interest in the topic, as Paul Beier is going to record a CD of music of 
Reusner on 12 course.


Just yesterday, I received a new CD by Anthony Bailes.. "Old Gaultiers 
Nigtinghall".  He plays a small Frei, with a Dutch like head, 12 
course.  The recording contains music of Mezangeau, Pierre Gaultier, 
Thomas Mace, and Bouvier.  All pieces are in transitional tunings, and I 
like it very much.


Good luck, with this. It is something I am interested in.

ed



At 06:59 AM 5/30/2008 +, Mathias Rösel wrote:

Dear Collected Wisdom,
is there someone on the list who is willing to share their experiences
with double headed 12c lutes and related repertoire? I'm just about to
enter that flowery meadow.
What I'm interested in is
- choice: What made you choose that type of lute (that luthier)?
- measurements: Am I right in assuming that small mensur (about 55 cm
VSL) works better?
- inferentially, luthiers: Who built your instrument and when?
- tunings: which one do you prefer?
Any comments appreciated!
--
Mathias

To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.4/1473 - Release Date: 
5/29/2008 7:53 PM




Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota  55812
e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
voice:  (218) 728-1202





No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.4/1473 - Release Date: 5/29/2008 
7:53 PM




Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota  55812
e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
voice:  (218) 728-1202

[LUTE] Re: what are underlights ...

[David Tayler]

I think that in a specific way, it refers to the many types of 
diagrams showing the celestial order, many of which are reprinted in 
the untuning of the Sky by John Hollander, and obtusely referenced in 
Spitzer's classic text,
Classical and Christian Ideas of World Harmony.

In a general sense, it is simply either the lights below the major 
ones, referenced in Genesis, or "under" in the sense of lesser, as in 
Este's text, You meaner (lesser) beauties of the night.

dt

At 02:25 PM 5/30/2008, you wrote:

>Hi lutenists,
>
>just in case someone thinks I am a madman, when writing about the world
>picture of the composers of our lute music, as I did (see below), I
>would like to add something. My list of "heavens" (should it be
>"spheres"?) is taken from the preface of  one edition of Dante's
>Divina Comedia, Paradiso, written by Daniele Mattalia, ISBN
>88-17-12033-2. That medieval view of the universe was still very much in
>the beliefs in the times of Campion. And perhaps something of that still
>is? At least in Finnish we still say "seventh heaven", when referring
>to something very wanted is achieved - well the seventh heaven is in
>between the most far off planet Saturnus and the Primus Motor, so very
>near the God... And so on. You'll find this kind of references here and
>there in our languages actually quite often ...
>
>I think you HAVE to know the world picture of the 1500's and 1600's to
>be able to understand the songs and especially the song texts (=poems)
>of those times. One, perhaps humorous example is the word "humour" in
>the texts of Dowland songs (and also in the plays of Shakespeare!). It
>really does not mean "humor", no, it means the quality of the liquids
>in your body, which then also determine your attitude to the life,
>including your sense of "humor" in the modern sense.
>
>All the best,
>
>Arto
>-
>On 5/30/2008, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > I would suggest underlights are the planets and perhaps also the Moon
> > > (and Sun?). In the world picture of those days all the stars were
> > > attached to the same, uppermost chrystal sphere, each planet had its own
> > > chrystal sphere, which were also lower, nearer to the center of the
> > > universe, our own Earth.
> >
> > More info:
> > There are 9 heavens (cielo):
> > I heaven: the Moon,
> > II: Mercurius
> > III: Venus
> > IV: the Sun
> > V: Mars
> > VI: Jupiter
> > VII: Saturnus
> > VIII: the Stars
> > VIII: Primus Motor
> >
> > As far as I understand, at least I-VIII are attached to a transparent
> > chrystal sphere... ;-)
> >
> > Arto
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Lute songs

[David Tayler]

Lutes have dynamics to my ear. When I practice, I play the same 
passage a different volume levels.
Lutes can also say the words, but this is difficult to describe, 
though easy to demonstrate.
Normally I start by memorizing the poem, then reciting using 
rhetoric, then I practice making the sounds of the lute mesh with the 
colors and accents of the words.
Learning the poem definitely creates an audible difference.
dt



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[LUTE] Re: Vimeo Lutes and Early Guitars Video Channel

[David Tayler]

Thanks Rob
dt

At 04:45 AM 5/30/2008, you wrote:
>With more people appreciating the audio and visual quality of the Vimeo site
>over YouTube, I've created a Vimeo Channel - one page bringing together all
>the Vimeo videos with lutes and early guitars. I urge all those of us who
>have videos to upload them to Vimeo, then inform me and I'll link them to
>the Lutes and Early Guitars Channel, which is:
>
>http://www.vimeo.com/Francesco
>
>Visitors welcome.
>
>Rob MacKillop
>
>--
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Lute songs

[Sean Smith]

My lute awake! ... indeed, its purpose is to accompany the poem with 
its own rhetorical counterpoint. David speaks a fundamental truth here 
and we, as the lute, should have a thorough feel of the poem and 
purpose as well as the poet's, composer's and musician's artistry. A 
song --especially a lute song-- is the work of many hands and here you 
get it all distilled into 10 fingers and a voice.


We should remember that the original poem is the paramount reason for 
creating the song but there are many ways in which the lutesong is 
written and so another interpretation is to bring out the many voices 
that the lute is asked to "impersonate". In the frottole and even 
earlier the lute takes only one or two voices making it more possible 
to seperate and bring out the seperate voices in their different 
characters. Remember, a human tenor voice will be different than an 
alto (as well as the individual characters they bring to each voice) 
and often we can bring this out with our sense of touch. The confident 
bass singer; the flirting alto and so forth.


As we move into the chansons of Sermisy and Crecquillon we have a 
larger handful of voices but now we have the often repeating 
counterpoints to work with and we can bring out this voice or that 
voice to give a living character to the lute.


Of course songs w/ block chords (such as the Neapolitan song rep of the 
1570s to the -90s) don't lend themselves to this approach but Dowland & 
co. brings us back wonderfully to the ideal of many seperate voices 
(and artists) building a complete single poem. And so I often try to 
keep the voices' characters throughout the piece though it's okay to 
let them drift in and out as the textures need.


For my own life w/ the lute, it never did quite awake until I started 
working w/ singers.


My 2 cents ;^)

Sean


On May 30, 2008, at 8:04 PM, David Tayler wrote:


Lutes have dynamics to my ear. When I practice, I play the same
passage a different volume levels.
Lutes can also say the words, but this is difficult to describe,
though easy to demonstrate.
Normally I start by memorizing the poem, then reciting using
rhetoric, then I practice making the sounds of the lute mesh with the
colors and accents of the words.
Learning the poem definitely creates an audible difference.
dt



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[LUTE] Re: what are underlights ...

[wikla]

On 5/31/2008, "LGS-Europe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> The Elizabehan World Picture
> by E.M.W. Tillyard (I happen to have a Pelican from 1943, but there must be
> more modern editions)

Yep, mine is reprint of 1984, at least 14th reprint, ISBN 0-14-021484-4.

Arto



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