[LUTE] Re: Dowland, P#17
Vimeo does not have Youtube limitation to 10 mn and 100 Mo. I uploaded a video of 141 Mo and 20mn on Vimeo. Val. -Message d'origine- De : Rob MacKillop [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Envoyé : mardi 2 décembre 2008 09:09 À : Daniel Winheld Cc : lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Objet : [LUTE] Re: Dowland, P#17 Hi Dan, Not sure why you split it up into three sections...if the file was too big, did you convert the wav file into mp3 before uploading? I don't know how the mac system works...it seems to me you must play around with your software a bit more. You can obviously play well, so it seems a shame to break up a performance. A couple of other observations. You seem to be fond of playing lute music on a vihuela and vihuela music on a lute. Why? And, I'm not sure you have the correct tension in your bass strings - they seem too loose to me, or you must pluck them closer to the bridge. I think it was because the performance was interrupted twice that I started thinking about these things. I look forward to a Dan Winheld performance without technical concerns, as I like your playing a lot. Just my thoughts... Rob 2008/12/2 Daniel Winheld [EMAIL PROTECTED] Uploaded, John Dowland- The Lady Russel's Pavan, Poulton #17 on Vimeo, three sections in separate uploads. Checked settings; it is public. [2]http://www.vimeo.com/2402068 [3]http://www.vimeo.com/2402317 [4]http://www.vimeo.com/2402631 Dan -- -- References 1. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 2. http://www.vimeo.com/2402068 3. http://www.vimeo.com/2402317 4. http://www.vimeo.com/2402631 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Fret Calculator
Hi Dan, no I don't think it's an illusion. Tuning ET is very hard, because the major thirds are already right at the limit of what the ear will accept (many would say, beyond) so if they're just the tiniest bit too wide it sounds dreadful. But with meantone temperaments, the major thirds can be pure, or not so pure, but as long as they're somewhere between pure and ET it sounds OK. You tune a harpsichord in ET? Now that really is a sin. Try it in 1/4 comma, and play Byrd, then tell me you like it in ET. Best wishes, Martin Daniel Winheld wrote: Absolutely the best procedure; what I now use. I set frets by calculation only once, about 30 years ago. Came out so bad, I ran crying back to EQUAL (yecchh!) until about a month or so ago- not hard at all with a good tuner (and years of training, tuning my wife's harpsichord.) The cigar will always be a temporally unstable phenomenon; what with the nature of ambient humidity, temperature, the whims of organic visceral remains under tension, and of course one's own varying perceptual state. Nevertheless, I find tuning to go faster more easily in 1/4 comma meantone, and the instrument itself seems to hold the tuning better- now that has to be an illusion. Dan I can't see using a fret calculator for real world tuning, tune your open strings in the temperament you wish and then set your frets using the tuning box. If you wish to tweak the open strings, tune the top string, then set each fret with the box. Then tune the double octave to the top string, set those frets to the box. You will notice that the frets do not make exactly straight lines, which is normal--and shows that the fret calculator won't work. Then adjust the open strings anyway you like. You have to have the double octaves in tune or you will really hear it. This is the only system that will give you the actual, as opposed to theoretical values, as it will compensate for drift--unless you tune by ear. You will find, of course, that you will either have to choose between sharps and flats, especially for the first fret, or use tastini. The fret caluclator will get you close, but still a few millimeters from cigar. Have fun! dt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland, P#17
Hi Dan, Not sure why you split it up into three sections...if the file was too big, did you convert the wav file into mp3 before uploading? I don't know how the mac system works...it seems to me you must play around with your software a bit more. You can obviously play well, so it seems a shame to break up a performance. A couple of other observations. You seem to be fond of playing lute music on a vihuela and vihuela music on a lute. Why? And, I'm not sure you have the correct tension in your bass strings - they seem too loose to me, or you must pluck them closer to the bridge. I think it was because the performance was interrupted twice that I started thinking about these things. I look forward to a Dan Winheld performance without technical concerns, as I like your playing a lot. Just my thoughts... Rob 2008/12/2 Daniel Winheld [EMAIL PROTECTED] Uploaded, John Dowland- The Lady Russel's Pavan, Poulton #17 on Vimeo, three sections in separate uploads. Checked settings; it is public. [2]http://www.vimeo.com/2402068 [3]http://www.vimeo.com/2402317 [4]http://www.vimeo.com/2402631 Dan -- -- References 1. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 2. http://www.vimeo.com/2402068 3. http://www.vimeo.com/2402317 4. http://www.vimeo.com/2402631 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Fret Calculator
At 10:34 AM 12/2/2008, Daniel Winheld wrote: Even the piano (Ivers Pond, 1906- their Upright Grand) is tuned to temperament one of my students calls Victorian Meantone Just out of curiosity, what exactly is Victorian Meantone? Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Fret Calculator
On Tue, Dec 2, 2008, Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Just out of curiosity, what exactly is Victorian Meantone? perhaps it was last tuned in the victorian age? Should be strongly related to nickel-beer pianoroll meantone. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Fret Calculator
At 10:51 AM 12/2/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Dec 2, 2008, Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Just out of curiosity, what exactly is Victorian Meantone? perhaps it was last tuned in the victorian age? Should be strongly related to nickel-beer pianoroll meantone. Mmmm... Make mine a creamy stout. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Fret Calculator
You know you're all crazy, right...? On Dec 2, 2008, at 6:08 PM, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: At 10:51 AM 12/2/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Dec 2, 2008, Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Just out of curiosity, what exactly is Victorian Meantone? perhaps it was last tuned in the victorian age? Should be strongly related to nickel-beer pianoroll meantone. Mmmm... Make mine a creamy stout. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Fret Calculator
Indeed. At 11:08 AM 12/2/2008, Omer katzir wrote: You know you're all crazy, right...? On Dec 2, 2008, at 6:08 PM, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: At 10:51 AM 12/2/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Dec 2, 2008, Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Just out of curiosity, what exactly is Victorian Meantone? perhaps it was last tuned in the victorian age? Should be strongly related to nickel-beer pianoroll meantone. Mmmm... Make mine a creamy stout. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Fret Calculator
Even the piano (Ivers Pond, 1906- their Upright Grand) is tuned to temperament one of my students calls Victorian Meantone Whoops should have seen that one coming! From what the piano tuner told me, I gathered that it is one of a variety of well temperaments, similar to what J.S. Bach may have intended with his Well Tempered Clavier - that is, enough of a nod to the thirds that they sound better than equal, but compromised enough to make all keys useable. True et took a LONG time to become universally accepted, and more recently than one would have expected- but I would have to look it up to give dates, places, venues menus so I'm stopping here. My tuner dude says that Victorian Meantone is not the true name for this temperament, but the wise-ass nickname that my lute student gives it. She also plays piano and employs his services; in fact she recommended him to me. Anytime any of you come out here, bring your piano with you and we'll fix you up with Larry Riley, a fine piano tuner indeed. Just out of curiosity, what exactly is Victorian Meantone? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Fret Calculator
Only if last October was the Victorian age. We're nostalgic here in Berkeley, but it only goes back to the 1960's. That would be Free Speech Tear Gas temperament. perhaps it was last tuned in the victorian age? I like the beer part. Definitely improves the flavor of the thirds. Should be strongly related to nickel-beer pianoroll meantone. -- Dana Emery -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Fret Calculator
Or maybe the Panama Red temperament:-) Strictly San Francisco, and only the higher octaves. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Miguel Serdoura's Lute Method
I have the first version, from the French lute society, which I think is almost identical to the new, English, version, and I think it is excellent. Jim On 12/2/08, Ken Brodkey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All, I'm wondering if anyone has had a chance to go through Miguel Serdoura's Baroque lute method and can make some comments about it. I'm considering purchasing it. I do have Satoh's method and Giesbert as well. Thanks! Ken To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Late Dowland to 9 or 10 courses?
If you consider at least some of the lute parts in LOST to be solos, then yes (9 course) Martin Shepherd has it all nailed down on his website and/or the Dowland site. Dan http://www.johndowland.co.uk/DowlandsLutes.htm http://www.johndowland.co.uk/ Dear collective wisdom, are there any (late) J. Dowland pieces for 10 (or 9) course lute? I remember that Robert's Variete has some, but those perhaps are not by John? Any advice appreciated, Arto -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Late Dowland to 9 or 10 courses?
And specifically, the Galliard to Lachrimae. If you consider at least some of the lute parts in LOST to be solos, then yes (9 course) Martin Shepherd has it all nailed down on his website and/or the Dowland site. Dan -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Monteverdi: Si dolce è'l tormento, another lute solo
Some time ago (half a year) I published this piece as a soprano lute solo - intabulation and an unpolished video play - see http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/own/Intabs/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kFxMnbZJsQ Some days ago I played also a version for the 10-course real lute http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zg5JTrR1uwM This is actually my original version of the piece, already from the 1980's, and I used this version as a Ritornello for a counter tenor singing the song. The intabulation and also the song transposed to g-minor can be found in page http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/10_courseLute/ Enjoy, as they use to say... ;-) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb In or Quill Pick
On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 11:13 PM, Narada [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since I bought my lute some 3 years ago now I have constantly struggled with the thumb in technique, it feels very uncomfortable and awkward even after many hours of practice. I was fortunate sometime ago to meet Jan Akkerman when he played at the Picturedrome in Holmfirth, and we got into a discussion about right hand technique for the lute. I mentioned that I struggled with the thumb in technique, he suggested that I revert back to the claw technique. However I am curious about the use of the quill both historically and in modern usage. What you want yourself, is up to you and I don't think Jan Akkerman is much concerned with what we would call today historically informed performance practice (hip). People on this lists tend to be on the hip-side of things in playing lute, so expect answers about historical rather than modern usage. A very general summary could be that a quill is fine for single line medieval music, occasional strumming in a lively dance or a strummed chord here and there. That would be done till about 1500. Around then fingers took over to play polyphony. It's possible with a quill in hand to use your fingers as well, but it's awkward. I do when playing medieval music, but my finger technique is so much better than my quill technique that I tend to compensate that way. 16th century music is played with fingers, thumb in, as if the quill is still in the hand (lately, somebody suggested imagining holding a fig). Middle finger comes in when needed. Ring finger as little as possible. Around 1600 comes the next shift in technique. Lutes grew more bass strings, music changed from polyphony to bass/harmony + melody. This all resulted in thumb out. It stayed that way. Now there are many refinements to the above summary, but for starters it should answer your question: if you want to play 'historically' with quill, you're stuck in the Middle Ages. A fine time to be stuck in with lots of wonderful music. Not a bad choice. If you're most happy with thumb in, you'd better like the 16th century repertoire, it's the age. But if thumb out is your thing, you'd have to turn to music from about 1600 onwards. If you don't care about hip playing, on the other hand, just play the music you like best with the technique you're most comfortable with. The hip-police tends not to leave this this list, even if they do sound quite threatening once in a while. ;-) David - awaiting heavy knocking on the door ... -- *** David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb In or Quill Pick
For examples of plectrum lute, look for recordings by Crawford Young. It's his specialty. AFAIK, there's nothing explicitly written for plectrum lute. The people I know generally create their own arrangements. Guy -Original Message- From: Narada [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 2:14 PM To: 'Lute Net' Subject: [LUTE] Thumb In or Quill Pick Greetings, One or the collective wisdom. Some months ago I remember reading a brief discussion on the forum regarding the use of quill tips for `plectrums', which due to certain age problems has got me wondering. Since I bought my lute some 3 years ago now I have constantly struggled with the thumb in technique, it feels very uncomfortable and awkward even after many hours of practice. I was fortunate sometime ago to meet Jan Akkerman when he played at the Picturedrome in Holmfirth, and we got into a discussion about right hand technique for the lute. I mentioned that I struggled with the thumb in technique, he suggested that I revert back to the claw technique. However I am curious about the use of the quill both historically and in modern usage. Would lutenists of the day have a preference as to which technique they would use? E.g. are there those who used the quill solely, and who are they, and what pieces, if any, were written exclusively to be played using the quill, or would they have swapped between thumb in and quill depending on the piece. Are there any examples in the modern recorded repertoire for this? And who are the performers - I have Paul O'Dettes complete works of Dowland and a substantial collection of Lindberg and Heringman plus many more. Finally, are there any specific techniques to be learned regarding the quill pick, say in how some chords or note runs are played. Regards Neil -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb In or Quill Pick
Hi Neil, Thumb in or out is a less important issue than is normally thought. John Dowland is known to have changed from thumb in to thumb out during the course of his career. I personally play thumb in but one should see a player like Nigel North who is the best proof of what can be done with thumb out! Funny you should mention Jan Akkerman. I used to repair his Eastern- German lutes which had a constant tendency to collaps under the tension of their own strings. Thumb in is virtually impossible on lutes of this kind. Which brings me to the following question, What kind of lute do you have? Thumb in requires a lightly-built lute with thin, low tension strings and a bridge without a saddle. Annyway a good teacher should be able to help you to develop a secure technique either way. Concerning the plectrum-lute, the renaissance-lute that was first one to be played with the fingers. Medieval music should be played with a plectrum. The plectrum technique seems to have died out sometime during the third decade of the sixteenth century. Surely both techniques coexisted for at least thirty to forty years. Musicians like Martin Best and Crawford Young are accomplished medieval-lute specialists. (I am not :-( ) Cheers, Lex van Sante Op 2 dec 2008, om 23:13 heeft Narada het volgende geschreven: Greetings, One or the collective wisdom. Some months ago I remember reading a brief discussion on the forum regarding the use of quill tips for `plectrums', which due to certain age problems has got me wondering. Since I bought my lute some 3 years ago now I have constantly struggled with the thumb in technique, it feels very uncomfortable and awkward even after many hours of practice. I was fortunate sometime ago to meet Jan Akkerman when he played at the Picturedrome in Holmfirth, and we got into a discussion about right hand technique for the lute. I mentioned that I struggled with the thumb in technique, he suggested that I revert back to the claw technique. However I am curious about the use of the quill both historically and in modern usage. Would lutenists of the day have a preference as to which technique they would use? E.g. are there those who used the quill solely, and who are they, and what pieces, if any, were written exclusively to be played using the quill, or would they have swapped between thumb in and quill depending on the piece. Are there any examples in the modern recorded repertoire for this? And who are the performers - I have Paul O'Dettes complete works of Dowland and a substantial collection of Lindberg and Heringman plus many more. Finally, are there any specific techniques to be learned regarding the quill pick, say in how some chords or note runs are played. Regards Neil -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: ok...need some more help...
I bought Django and ran it under Virtual Windows. It seems to do everything, but as usual with such programs there is quite a learning curve, plus the whole Windows thing to learn. I haven't used it for a year or two so maybe Roman or others would be better able to offer comments on it. I also got Harmony Assistant which is very Mac friendly and has defaults for many kinds of tabs. It is much easier to use but still is a PIA if you are like me and only use these things every few months so that you forget everything you learned the last time you used the program. I put in a decent lute font and I've been pretty happy with it. The HA online community is helpful. The programmers read the forums and get back to you pretty quickly, and you cannot beat the price. Best is you can use it in demo mode for as long as you like to see if you like it or not. HTH On Nov 25, 2008, at 10:48 PM, Omer katzir wrote: For the past few weeks I'm trying to write,tabs. becuase I'm a mac user, i pretty much have nothing... I can use Finale 2009, Sibelius 5 or Guitar pro. but they all pretty much the same bad thing. I can run XP, but: Fronimo: Can't save (and don't have money to buy...) Django (same as above) I haven't tried the app by Cripps yet, it's really hard for me to work at a terminal environment right now (sick as a little puppy) I need it both for lute and maybe a voice or two. for now i use Finale, but it's really really make me even sicker! Any help or advice or maybe some pills will be great... Omer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
[LUTE] Re: Thumb In or Quill Pick
David van Ooijen wrote: A very general summary could be that a quill is fine for single line medieval music, occasional strumming in a lively dance or a strummed chord here and there. That would be done till about 1500. Around then fingers took over to play polyphony. Did Arthur recently mention a source from the 1520s, mentioning plectrum technique as if it was still a viable option? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb In or Quill Pick
At 05:34 PM 12/2/2008, David van Ooijen wrote: Now there are many refinements to the above summary, but for starters it should answer your question: if you want to play 'historically' with quill, you're stuck in the Middle Ages. A fine time to be stuck in with lots of wonderful music. Not a bad choice. If you're most happy with thumb in, you'd better like the 16th century repertoire, it's the age. But if thumb out is your thing, you'd have to turn to music from about 1600 onwards. Perhaps straying a little from the topic of quills applied to Dowland, but there are, of course, a few exceptions to the above paragraph amongst lute-like plucked thingies. Renaissance citterns are often played with quill. Even more lute like, mandolini of the baroque era are often played with quill; such instruments are much more similar to soprano lutes than they are to modern mandolins: tuning wholly or mostly in 4ths ([g]-b-e'-a'-d''-g''), gut strings, fixed bridge, etc. Some argue that punteado was status quo on mandolini until after the mid 1700s or so, but there are excellent recorded examples of quills or plectra applied to baroque mandolini. Paul O'Dette uses fingers on Arrigoni's mandolin sonata in E minor, but plectrum on Scarlatti's on Tragicomedia's Capritio disc (Harmonia Mundi). O'Dette also uses plectrum on Vivaldi's RV 425 and 532 on The Parley of Instruments' Vivaldi: Music For lute and Mandolin (Hyperion). I find the Ahlert-Schwab reconstruction of Weiss duos particularly satisfying on their CD Weiss Hoffmann: Sonatas for Lute Baroque Mandolin (Naxos), and Daniel is a skilled inveterate quiller of mandolini. Regarding the represented composers on the Ahlert-Schwab disc, Hoffmann almost certainly composed for mandolino with the expectation that quill would be used. Their choice of instruments is a little anachronistically idealized, but both Duo Capriccioso and Duetto Giocondo have a number of fine recordings applying quill to lute-like, 6-course mandolini in baroque repertoire, notably the former's recording of the Scarlatti sonatas for soprano instrument and continuo (Thorofon) and the latter's Music for Baroque Mandolin Lute (Koch). Yes, still mandolini, but I can name many more in this vein. Perhaps, Neil, it's time to take up a 5- or 6-course mandolin? I could use some company over here. Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb In or Quill Pick
Actually, if you use the quill in a historically correct way, it will not affect the thumb at all. Vladimir Ivanoff writes (Invitation to the fifteenth-century plectrum lute in _Performance on Lute, Guitar, and Vihuela_, ed. by Victor Coelho, Cambridge UP, 1977 -- p.9): Numerous iconographical documents show that until at least around 1450, the lute was invariably plucked with a plectrum made from a bird's feather. Paintings and drawings show that lutenists generally held the plectrum between the index and middle fingers and plucked the strings with a shaking movement of the forearm and wrist. . . . Numerous visual sources show that the transition from plectrum to thumb-index technique took place between ca. 1460 and 1500. Until ca. 1500 both techniques existed simultaneously. For what it's worth, when I took up the vihuela and lute a few years ago, I could not do much with the thumb-inside technique due to several previous injuries to my right hand. However, the thumb-outside technique is very comfortable, and scale work is fluent and natural-feeling. Michael Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED] To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Late Dowland to 9 or 10 courses?
The Galliard to Lachrimae is nice, the solos in LoST, the La Mia Barbera--needs reconstruction, that one, the beautiful solo in Tresor D'Orphee. I think are are one or two more. I like the in Nomine on at least 8 courses. Sempre Dolens, is nice to have the low F, and of course the passionate pavans are very beautiful from LoST. Difficult music, that. Also, a real gem for 9 or 10c is the Holborne Countess of Pembroke' Funeral--what a masterpiece. Needs a C, D E flat and E natural. Plays nicely on nine or ten. dt At 12:23 PM 12/2/2008, you wrote: And specifically, the Galliard to Lachrimae. If you consider at least some of the lute parts in LOST to be solos, then yes (9 course) Martin Shepherd has it all nailed down on his website and/or the Dowland site. Dan -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
