[LUTE] Cantio Ruthenica LXXVII
http://www.torban.org/ruthenicae/images/233.pdf http://www.torban.org/ruthenicae/audio/233b.mp3 Amitiés. Enjoy, RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Cantio Ruthenica LXXVI
http://www.torban.org/ruthenicae/images/232.pdf http://www.torban.org/ruthenicae/audio/232.mp3 Amitiés. Enjoy, RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Peg count on Choc lute
Martin, this is very well stated. ed >Talking about pitch standards is confusing unless you specify nominal >pitch. I still think of the "Dowland lute" as being "in G" even though it >might be at a'=392 or a'=330. Whatever kind of lute we're talking about, >if it is around 67cm string length, the pitch of that top string should >probably be no higher than f' at modern pitch, probably more like e'. A >double first tends to push the pitch down because there's a limit to how >thin a gut string can be made and there's another limit to how much >tension you can stand to play on, especially if you play near the bridge. > >Best wishes, > >Martin Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lute fongs and the long s
> the answer to my query about rules for the long s: > > http://babelstone.blogspot.com/2006/06/rules-for-long-s.html May I remark that, at least in German, it's not words but spoken syllables what it's all about with long and short s-es. 1. S at the opening of syllables is long s (e. g. sun, consider). 2. S as first of a group of consonants at the opening of syllables (sp-, sw-, sc-, sk-, st-, sz-) is long s. 3. S at the close of syllables is short s (e. g. lies, husband). As for the closing -se (e. g. house, defense) in so many English words, argumentation may go as follows. Modern British orthography actually reflects 17th century spoken English. Back then, -se was actually pronounced (singers, behold and beware), so s would open a syllable and would inferentially be long s. -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Peg count on Choc lute
>Tell me if I am wrong, but I think Vihuela players usually keep to >TO? Would this have something to do with the double top? If there is >a reason for associating these, then we might have a reason for >Dowland's adopting TO, while also using double tops. That's the best question for starting a brawl down at the vihuela player's pub. One source (Juan Bermudo? Henestrosa?) refers to TO as "Figueta (fingering) Castellano" and TI as "Figueta Extranjera" (Foreign fingering) We have covered this topic at length on the list previously- check the archives (vihuela list archives too, I imagine). Based on the differing forms and functionalities of people's hands, wrists, and fingers, and the different ergonomic issues imposed by differing instrument shapes & sizes I think TO/TI choice is as often a technical decision as purely musical. Personally, double or single first has had zero effect on whether I go TO or TI on a particular instrument. >Yet TO in lute music is often associated with the break from a >certain type of polyphonic music. Indeed, if the reason for the TI >to TO shift should be sought in its musical function, and if that >should be increased "treble bass polarity", as suggested by J. >Edwards, (1997), then this seems to go in the opposite direction of >the polyphonic homogeneity function (seamless transition and even >tone) that the double top would bring. >There is something, here, that escapes me; but I do spend much of my >time in almost total confusion, so there is nothing new there. Monody and the single-string first? I don't know- I've seen pics of archlutes & liuti attorbiato with peg counts limiting one to a single first as well as those allowing the double. Martin Shepherd would have a better handle on that. Certainly increasing numbers of bass courses dictates thumb UP, and finally the complete abandonment of any thumb-index passagi in late Baroque plucked instrument play. I do notice that most modern players have a shallower angle- wrist/hand to the strings than the majority of players in the old pictures. >Oh so I was wrong again. I thought you must have been using a 9c. Well, my very first lute- one of those old guitar-lutes with metal frets and guitar saddle bridge did in fact have 9 courses! -THAT was about a million years ago. >Do you try to keep your TO as a slight shift from your TI, as Jakob >Lindberg declares he does in his interview with Ed Durbrow, or do >you try to maximize the difference. I am not sure which tactic is >easier. >at present I am shifting between the two, as I show in my message to Martin. Picture is worth a bunch of words, as they say. Check my hands at the Vimeo site: http://www.vimeo.com/user814372/videos I've only done one video so far with the 6-course, but that's my typical hand/wrist position for thumb in- and my TO on vihuela, Baroque lute, etc. is radically different from anything I ever did on classical guitar. >I hope you get your 9c in your stocking or for the New Year!! If only Martin Shepherd was Santa Claus! Dan -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Peg count on Choc lute
Dan, I have very much enjoyed your explanations of how you came to terms with the double top course, and how this improved your TO technique. It gave me more hope actually, as I am struggling somewhat with TO at present. Le 21 déc. 08 à 19:37, Daniel Winheld a écrit : No need to apologize Anthony, we are in "disparate" straits indeed as any single factor affects all other factors; and we are processing & correlating many disparate bits of wreckage- tantalizing clues, contradictory artifacts, and the opinionated opinions of long dead musicians, string makers, & luthiers who were as cantankerously human as we are. (And let's remember the sheep; whose 16th century guts were genetically the same as now, but is the breaking point really unaffected by diet & processing?) I suspect at bottom they had the same love-hate relationship to the troublesome trebles as we do- are they worth the double expense, the double trouble with tuning & need for absolute concordant trueness from open to 12 fret? For some music a singing, single treble string really is the best, while for polyphonic music and some accompanying tasks the even tone color, seamless transition, and perfect blending favor the doubled treble. That is a very good point, but I wonder how you decide the cut-off point between the two, but I suppose that is the same question we are always asking ourselves, even for TI/TO. Tell me if I am wrong, but I think Vihuela players usually keep to TO? Would this have something to do with the double top? If there is a reason for associating these, then we might have a reason for Dowland's adopting TO, while also using double tops. Yet TO in lute music is often associated with the break from a certain type of polyphonic music. Indeed, if the reason for the TI to TO shift should be sought in its musical function, and if that should be increased "treble bass polarity", as suggested by J. Edwards, (1997), then this seems to go in the opposite direction of the polyphonic homogeneity function (seamless transition and even tone) that the double top would bring. There is something, here, that escapes me; but I do spend much of my time in almost total confusion, so there is nothing new there. My own attempts to get a handle on the doubled first go back to 1986, when I commissioned a multi-rib 8 course lute from Richard Fletcher; beautiful instrument that I now wish I had kept, but a number of personal difficulties forced me to part with it. Oh so I was wrong again. I thought you must have been using a 9c. Since then I learned historic thumb-out RH technique for playing 10 course, archlute, and 13 course lutes (Nicolas Vallet's vitriolic remarks about thumb-in-under frying my tender ears) and did not address the double-first problem successfully until I got my Chambure copy vihuela from Barber & Harris- the instrument you can see & hear me play on the Vimeo site. This instrument seems to "want" slightly higher tension than lutes, the Universale double chanterelle is .42 mm on a 64.5 SL, pitched as a nominal g, but A=392 (alright, "f" damn it) for an approximate tension of 35 N. With a single first it can sound good at 415, but is a little strained. I have decided on TO for this instrument, as much for arm- wrist ergonomic reasons as being in accord with "Figueta Castellano". Getting good tone on any course, double or single, was initially much easier for me with thumb-under- but now that TO is comfortable the archlute & d-minor lute sound clearer & cleaner played TO. The 6-course lute- single first- (one Marco recercar on Vimeo) will always be a thumb-under instrument. I do not now own a nine-course lute, that is number one on my cosmic wish-list. Do you try to keep your TO as a slight shift from your TI, as Jakob Lindberg declares he does in his interview with Ed Durbrow, or do you try to maximize the difference. I am not sure which tactic is easier. t present I am shifting between the two, as I show in my message to Martin. I hope you get your 9c in your stocking or for the New Year!! Best wishes Anthony I appologize for the disparate nature of my remarks. Best wishes Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Peg count on Choc lute
Dear Martin and All Le 22 déc. 08 à 10:33, Martin Shepherd a écrit : Dear Anthony and All, Just to answer a few things from your message: If the evidence from surviving lutes is anything to go by, a double first was common on 7 and 8c lutes. There is no reason to associate this practice with any specific number of courses. but how about the lute type? Could it be more appropriate with mutli- ribbed models? I am in no doubt that the author of the Burwell lute tutor was referring to the upper octave of the 11th course when he said "small 11th" (because of the other remarks about how thick this string has to be, etc.). The 10/11c conversion I was describing is nothing to do with the octave-only 11th. If you have a 10c lute with a single first and all the rest double, that means you have 19 pegs. You only need one more for the 11c conversion not because the 11th is single but because the second is single: the 11c lute is 2x1 + 9x2 = 20 strings. But of course if you had a single 11th as well you wouldn't even need an extra peg Yes that is indeed what I was meaning, counting the single on the 1c and 2c, plus the single on the 11c. I wonder whether anyone has tried playing like that just to see whether it is acceptable, or even better than playing with a bass string. The proof is in the pudding, as it is suitable to say right now! TO seems to have become common at about the same time as the increase in courses from 7 to 10, so I would tend to stick to TI for 6c and have experimented with TO for lutes with more courses. I'm still in the early stages of learning TO, but I'm convinced it's the right thing to do. Yes, it is tough making the change, I had only just mastered TI , but very necessary on an 11c, I feel. Just how much TO remains the question: When the little finger is quite far back (Charles Mouton) the fingers seem to pojnt downwards more, and the thumb goes well beyond them. http://www.aquilacorde.com/mouton5.jpg However, in that case, the thumb is not so near the bridge as the fingesr are; and yet you would think, with low tension basses, you would want the thumb nearer the bridge. With the little finger further forward (Jacques Gautier?), then the thumb and fingers are more aligned, but neither are near the bridge, http://www.aquilacorde.com/lut.jpg I have been playing around with this, but not coming to any clear conclusion. It does not seem to be just the little finger position which is so important, but where the thumb strikes the basses. Gut basses (of whatever type) are less stretchy than wound ones and therefore involve much smaller movements of the peg for big changes in pitch. I have been pleasantly surprised that retuning them is less of a problem than I feared. Oh I thought that might be the contrary, but it is a long time since I tuned a wirewound. Talking about pitch standards is confusing unless you specify nominal pitch. I still think of the "Dowland lute" as being "in G" even though it might be at a'=392 or a'=330. Whatever kind of lute we're talking about, if it is around 67cm string length, the pitch of that top string should probably be no higher than f' at modern pitch, probably more like e'. A double first tends to push the pitch down because there's a limit to how thin a gut string can be made and there's another limit to how much tension you can stand to play on, especially if you play near the bridge. Yes that was the interesting point that I thought you were making. I suppose we should give the Hz value for the "G", if we want to be non- ambiguous. Best wishes, Martin Best wishes to all Anthony To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Peg count on Choc lute
On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 10:33 AM, Martin Shepherd wrote: > no higher than f' at modern pitch, probably more like e'. A double first > tends to push the pitch down because there's a limit to how thin a gut > string can be made and there's another limit to how much tension you can > stand to play on, especially if you play near the bridge. Indeed, and that should serve as a warning for all those (Jelma, deze is dus voor jou) who are contemplating a lute with a double first. If they are attached to 440 or 415 because these are ensemble standards in the modern world, and if they like using gut, they should have another look at string length and tension. Many of us, makers and players alike, will think of 0.40 for the first - single! - course and with pitch and tuning in hand will work out an appropriate string length from that. When using a double first they will have to use at least 0.38, and not everybody is happy with those. 0.38 Universale or Kathedrale strings are strong enough, but making a good tone on such thin strings is not always easy. Been there, done that. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Peg count on Choc lute
Dear Anthony and All, Just to answer a few things from your message: If the evidence from surviving lutes is anything to go by, a double first was common on 7 and 8c lutes. There is no reason to associate this practice with any specific number of courses. I am in no doubt that the author of the Burwell lute tutor was referring to the upper octave of the 11th course when he said "small 11th" (because of the other remarks about how thick this string has to be, etc.). The 10/11c conversion I was describing is nothing to do with the octave-only 11th. If you have a 10c lute with a single first and all the rest double, that means you have 19 pegs. You only need one more for the 11c conversion not because the 11th is single but because the second is single: the 11c lute is 2x1 + 9x2 = 20 strings. But of course if you had a single 11th as well you wouldn't even need an extra peg TO seems to have become common at about the same time as the increase in courses from 7 to 10, so I would tend to stick to TI for 6c and have experimented with TO for lutes with more courses. I'm still in the early stages of learning TO, but I'm convinced it's the right thing to do. Gut basses (of whatever type) are less stretchy than wound ones and therefore involve much smaller movements of the peg for big changes in pitch. I have been pleasantly surprised that retuning them is less of a problem than I feared. Talking about pitch standards is confusing unless you specify nominal pitch. I still think of the "Dowland lute" as being "in G" even though it might be at a'=392 or a'=330. Whatever kind of lute we're talking about, if it is around 67cm string length, the pitch of that top string should probably be no higher than f' at modern pitch, probably more like e'. A double first tends to push the pitch down because there's a limit to how thin a gut string can be made and there's another limit to how much tension you can stand to play on, especially if you play near the bridge. Best wishes, Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Merry Christmas, version 2!
I'm watching it, very nice video, especially the one of the Reindeer race Thanks and Merry Christmas to all of you Donatella - Original Message - From: "Arto Wikla" To: Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 9:51 AM Subject: [LUTE] Merry Christmas, version 2! Dear lutenists and like, there was a request of giving links to the real Santa C pages, too, and not only to some carols. ;-) Well, here you are: The page http://www.santaclaus.fi/ has a lot of stuff: webcam to the Arctic Circle, stories of the real Finnish Santa and his home at Korvatunturi mountain, hobby figurines for Christmas, reindeers, etc. In page http://www.santatelevision.com/ you can watch SantaTalevision! There are many interesting and important programs: Elf School, Santa's Departure, Santa Claus' Reindeer race, Santa's Interview, and lots and lots of other programs! And in 11 different languages! Merry Christmas! Arto PS And of course you are also allowed to play my arrangements found in http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/10_courseLute/Carols/ ;-) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Merry Christmas, version 2!
On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 9:51 AM, Arto Wikla wrote: > Dear lutenists and like, > > there was a request of giving links to the real Santa C pages, too, and not > only to some carols. ;-) > > Well, here you are: > > The page http://www.santaclaus.fi/ Thank you! I know Rovaniemi in 24/24 sunshine, it's another world. David - only three more cold churches to go. -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Merry Christmas, version 2!
Dear lutenists and like, there was a request of giving links to the real Santa C pages, too, and not only to some carols. ;-) Well, here you are: The page http://www.santaclaus.fi/ has a lot of stuff: webcam to the Arctic Circle, stories of the real Finnish Santa and his home at Korvatunturi mountain, hobby figurines for Christmas, reindeers, etc. In page http://www.santatelevision.com/ you can watch SantaTalevision! There are many interesting and important programs: Elf School, Santa's Departure, Santa Claus' Reindeer race, Santa's Interview, and lots and lots of other programs! And in 11 different languages! Merry Christmas! Arto PS And of course you are also allowed to play my arrangements found in http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/10_courseLute/Carols/ ;-) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
