[LUTE] Fronimo, again
Dear ones, With the help of Stephen Arndt, the problem is solved. In any rate, thanks to all. ed Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Edward Martin/who nose?
- Original Message From: "dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us" To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, 28 August, 2009 16:17:39 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Edward Martin/who nose? On Fri, Aug 28, 2009, Antonio Corona said: AC> At any rate, we cannote provide a reasonable hypothesis for > certain facts of performance pratice by summoning the whims of a priest. Dana: Not even a prince of a priest? It is such men who have the means to hire lutenists for such occaisions, so that is not an unreasonable circumstance. I do not speak of a common practice, but an aberation; yet, you must admit that the vagaries of heart-rate will have an affect on the players choice of tactus rate, this is true even today in modern orchestral performance; an excited conductor may well take some passages faster in performance than in rehearsal. Not even of a prince or priest. Milan was not a lutenist for hire: as far as we can tell from his autobiographical book he was an aristocratic amateur. And, while the heart rate may well affect a players' performance, we are not discussing how fast an excited vihuelist might have played, but a specific instruction by the author. >> In this particular case, I would be hard pressed to explain how >> slow pavans with the structure of a galliard could be played >> somewhat fast in general usage. Dana: At least half again as many notes makes for faster seeming music; especially contrasted against the Dancers gravitas. I spoke of the speed of the dance, not the music (save for the tenor, or the implied tenor). I beg your pardon. I was under the impression that we were discussing Milan's piece. Dana: As yesterday, and before that, and tomorrow and after that; I have not and cannot bring that music before my eyes tho I wish I could; nor does it lie in my head so I cannot speak more directly to your point. You can consult the facsimile at: http://bibliotecadigitalhispanica.bne.es/R/VF4NGVRAE4GN5CIQXCF7EBM5DNRXF6CN2GFGG7M9Y6UCN92U5T-02151?func=results-jump-full&set_entry=12 Dana: I thank you for your translation, my spanish comes largely from my singing and is at best un poquito. Please recall that my first thought was of a pavan in triple, that it could be a galliarde was conjecture on my part. Wouldnt be the first time a publisher messed up the intentions of an author and the author didnt catch it from proofs, if indeed he was given proofs in a timely fashion. While both the press and LdM shared residence in Valencia, the book is dedicated to the King of Portugal, a healthy journey across the center of Spain. It is possible that LdM was seeking a position at the court and may have been traveling during the production work on the book (more conjecture). There is no messing up of the author's intentions, as the Milan rubrics I quoted before show. Milan was not looking for any position at the Portuguese court, he was already part of that of Germaine de Foix, and not as a vihuelist, but as an appreciated member, as his book of 1561 (quite some time after the publication of el Maestro), also published at Valencia, and dedicated to King Philip II, shows. We cannot build up knowledge just from conjeture. > Furthermore, the rubric to the sixth pavan states: "This pavan has the > proportion of three semibreves [each] bar Dana: and there you have it for certs, a pavan in tripla. Hemiola is a feature of things in three, but not all that features hemiola is a galliard; there are also tourdion, volta, and canario. No tourdions in Spanish sources, neither voltas (a bit late for the time when El Maestro was published, besides), while the Spanish canario is a seventeenth- and eighteenth-century dance. Best wishes, Antonio To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Fronimo problem
Dear collective wisdom, Is there anyone very adept at using Fronimo? I am trying to listen to files using the MIDI command, and although I click on the play button, it makes no sound. I went through everything I could under the help tutorial, but I cannot make the MIDI to make sound. It always made sound in the past, so I am wondering why I cannot get sound now. Yes, I do get sound on my computer, but not in Fronimo MIDI. Any advice for this computer-impaired lutenist? Thanks in advance, ed Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Edward Martin/who nose?
On Fri, Aug 28, 2009, Antonio Corona said: AC> At any rate, we cannote provide a reasonable hypothesis for > certain facts of performance pratice by summoning the whims of a priest. Not even a prince of a priest? It is such men who have the means to hire lutenists for such occaisions, so that is not an unreasonable circumstance. I do not speak of a common practice, but an aberation; yet, you must admit that the vagaries of heart-rate will have an affect on the players choice of tactus rate, this is true even today in modern orchestral performance; an excited conductor may well take some passages faster in performance than in rehearsal. >> In this particular case, I would be hard pressed to explain how >> slow pavans with the structure of a galliard could be played >> somewhat fast in general usage. At least half again as many notes makes for faster seeming music; especially contrasted against the Dancers gravitas. I spoke of the speed of the dance, not the music (save for the tenor, or the implied tenor). > Milan states ... As yesterday, and before that, and tomorrow and after that; I have not and cannot bring that music before my eyes tho I wish I could; nor does it lie in my head so I cannot speak more directly to your point. I thank you for your translation, my spanish comes largely from my singing and is at best un poquito. Please recall that my first thought was of a pavan in triple, that it could be a galliarde was conjecture on my part. Wouldnt be the first time a publisher messed up the intentions of an author and the author didnt catch it from proofs, if indeed he was given proofs in a timely fashion. While both the press and LdM shared residence in Valencia, the book is dedicated to the King of Portugal, a healthy journey across the center of Spain. It is possible that LdM was seeking a position at the court and may have been traveling during the production work on the book (more conjecture). > Furthermore, the rubric to the sixth pavan states: "This pavan has the > proportion of three semibreves [each] bar and there you have it for certs, a pavan in tripla. Hemiola is a feature of things in three, but not all that features hemiola is a galliard; there are also tourdion, volta, and canario. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Sarge Gerbode
Hi all, mail to Sarge Gerbode is bouncing back. I'm trying to get in touch with him but to no avail. Anybody? Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [english 100%] Re: Edward Martin/who knows?
Dear Karl, Hemiolas in galliards are never notated explicitly, but you can deduce them easily from the movement of the bass, in the last two bars before the final chord. This is the case in the three cadences in Milan's piece. Best wishes, Antonio - Original Message From: Karl-L. Eggert To: Lute mailing list Sent: Friday, 28 August, 2009 7:49:03 Subject: [LUTE] [english 100%] Re: Edward Martin/who knows? Antonio Corona wrote: Dana: Pavanna are dances, they are slow dances with the steps taken on the tactus, typically one step per modern measure. Lots of time for slow graceful showing off by the strutting peacocks. No matter if the tactus is subdivided triply or duply. As I stated above, the sixth "pavan" is by no means such a dance. As far as I can recall, I have never seen a pavan in triple time with the characteristic hemiola of the galliard. Speed has nothing to do with rythmic structure. I agree that the sixth pavan sounds like a gaillard. For my taste, a tempo of 120semibreves/min sounds best -- apt for a gaillard. But where is there a hemiola in the 6th pavan? (The breves at the section ends are perfect, i.e. have the value of three semibreves.) Karl -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Edward Martin/who nose?
Dear friends > On Aug 27, 2009, at 12:21 PM, Antonio Corona wrote: > >> "They must be played with a somewhat fast air [so much for the slow >> pavan] Dana: well, perhaps the tempo can be varied enough to get that certain peacock and his retinue thru the line as quickly as possible; perhaps at a wedding when the priest is visibly impatient for whatever reason. Which leaves the matter of the rythmic structure unaccounted for. At any rate, we cannote provide a reasonable hypothesis for certain facts of performance pratice by summoning the whims of a priest. >> In this particular case, I would be hard pressed to explain how >> slow pavans with the structure of a galliard could be played >> somewhat fast in general usage. Dana: it is entirely possible that the copy given to the publisher/printer/compositor contained a suite of pavan and gaillarde which were not annotated as such, and slipped thru. Unfortunatly, I do not have the music available as I write this (most of my music is packed up, and the university music library is on inconveniant summer hours), further, I didnt explore all of the pavans some decades ago, only those I had recordings for (Yepes mainly). Milan states (full quotation): "These six fantasias that follow, as I mentioned before, resemble in their air and composition the same pavans that are played in Italy, and, since they are so much alike in everything, let us call them pavans. The first four are my invention, the melody of the two that follow was composed in Italy and the compositon over them is mine. They must be played somewhat fast, and they should be played twice or thrice, and the first pavan that follows belongs to the first and second mode" (Estas seis fantasias que se siguen, como arriba os dije, parecen en su aire y compostura a las mismas pavanas que en Italia se tañen, y pues en todo remedan a ellas, digamosles pavanas. Las cuatro primeras son inventadas por mi; las dos que después se siguen la sonada de ellas se hizo en Italia, y la compostura sobre la sonada de ellas es mía. Devense tañer con el compás algo apresurado, y requieren tañerse dos o tres veces, y esta pavana que primeramente sigue anda por los terminos del primero y segundo tonos). I believe, from this quotation, that it is most unlikely that Milan might have given a pavan-galliard pair to the publisher. Furthermore, the rubric to the sixth pavan states: "This pavan has the proportion of three semibreves [each] bar, and moves in the same mode as the past pavan, and the value of all the breves you may find alone will be a bar" (Esta pavana es a proporcion de tres semibreves [por] compas, y va por los terminos de la pavana pasada, y todos los breves que hallareis solos valgan ahora un compas). Thus, Milan makes it quite plain that he considered his ternary piece a "pavan", and rules out the possibility of a galliard slipping past unnoticed or by mistake. Milan even stats that all breves found alone are perfect, in accordance to the mensural theory. Best wishes, Antonio To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Flying with lutes
On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 5:53 PM, wrote: > hold as well (if kitty emerges freeze-dried, maybe lute glue joints will > not be happy either). I brought a koto from Japan, in the hold (a koto is a surf-board size instrument so the coats locker for the stewardesses was a bit too small). Some glue joints were freeze-dried, indeed, and had opened. Luckily an easy repair. But my lute was with me in the plane, enjoying the same bad air as I was, but at least the temperature and humidity were within survivable limits. And no one threw it on conveyor belts .. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Edward Martin/who nose?
On Fri, Aug 28, 2009, Mark Probert said: > You are right about the pavan and its purpose, though I wonder how that > relates to the playing of same on a lute. > > Practically, your average lute is not a loud instrument All too well appreciated by this player. Much depends on the setting. An orchestra of strings is nicely complemented by a lute or two, the attacking pluck _is_ heard thru the bowed notes. Lute alone only works when playing for a few couples in a hard acoustic such as a small chapel or what might have been a goodly-sized hall in 1550, but would be thought a small parlor today. Sunday afternoon at home entertaining a few neighbors perhaps. Shalms and Sacbuts; Viols/Violins, flute, dulcian, large harp; Snarly Regals; even a set of pipes are what one needs for larger halls with gentles socializing as they will. Put the musicians up over the entranceway to keep the dance floor unencumbered and the musicians kit safe from accident. > All in all, it is not the best instrument for playing dances, > aside from very intimate ones. agreed, sadly, for many its a choice of guitars and recorders or the dreaded machine. > The implication is that once the > tactus is set, you stay at that tempo. even that is arguable from contemporary sources, I am certain there is some notion of flexible tempo in the name of art; perhaps as a madrigalism (assuming text). I have played dances which have moments that demand pauses (at section closes where dancers embrace, such as in the candlestick bransle, or madam sosilias allemande). Then there are certain fast dances that become a challenge to the dancers and the band - who shall be the first to concede as the tempo gradually increases, the fingers of the players, or the exhausted feet of the dancers? -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Edward Martin/who nose?
Dana wrote: |> > |> >> "They must be played with a somewhat fast air [so much for the slow |> >> pavan] |> |> well, perhaps the tempo can be varied enough to get that certain peacock |> and his retinue thru the line as quickly as possible; perhaps at a wedding |> when the priest is visibly impatient for whatever reason. |> You are right about the pavan and its purpose, though I wonder how that relates to the playing of same on a lute. Practically, your average lute is not a loud instrument, and certainly tends to get lost in the noise of your average dance. Leave aside the stepping and swishing, there is also the on-going clatter, voices, and so on. All in all, it is not the best instrument for playing dances, aside from very intimate ones. My take on it is that the tactus becomes crucial. So when the mid to late 16thC write "pavan" they possibly mean "in the style of a pavan", rather than "grab your partner". The implication is that once the tactus is set, you stay at that tempo. If the piece moves into three then the tactus remains on the one, and we go measure for measure. Seems to work for me. -- Best regards .. mark To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Flying with lutes
On Thu, Aug 27, 2009, Peter Martin said: > However these items may be carried in the >hold of the aircraft... is that hold pressurized? heated? All the time, even in emergencies? See if they have a policy regarding pets/animals, which places such in the hold as well (if kitty emerges freeze-dried, maybe lute glue joints will not be happy either). -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Edward Martin/who nose?
On Thu, Aug 27, 2009, howard posner said: > > On Aug 27, 2009, at 12:21 PM, Antonio Corona wrote: > >> "They must be played with a somewhat fast air [so much for the slow >> pavan] well, perhaps the tempo can be varied enough to get that certain peacock and his retinue thru the line as quickly as possible; perhaps at a wedding when the priest is visibly impatient for whatever reason. >> In this particular case, I would be hard pressed to explain how >> slow pavans with the structure of a galliard could be played >> somewhat fast in general usage. it is entirely possible that the copy given to the publisher/printer/compositor contained a suite of pavan and gaillarde which were not annotated as such, and slipped thru. Unfortunatly, I do not have the music available as I write this (most of my music is packed up, and the university music library is on inconveniant summer hours), further, I didnt explore all of the pavans some decades ago, only those I had recordings for (Yepes mainly). All this reminds me of another dance, one we did in the SCA. Playford 1651 has a number of dances in it which use music known to predate the edition, one assumes the dances existed earlier as well, but the evidence is of course not conclusive, still, it greatly extended the dances available to us (in theory they had to predate 1600). Hole-in-the-wall is a very popular country dance, in line form, with alternate couples progressing up the line and the head couple having to make their way down to the tail at breakneck speed when it is played fast. HAving a three-part arrangement by Purcel (from Abdelazzar) was nice too (if highly anachronistic). But, since we were in theory sme hundred or more years before it, we treated it like an allemand, slowed down the tempo, and attempted to dance it with a touch of gravitas. Well, some wag discovered that there were points where a bored onlooker could join the dance 'kidnapping' a partner and leaving a rival out of it. Quel horreur! but all great fun. Too late for the period-nazis to bring that horse back to the barn, not only is HITW a fixture at many SCA events, all together too many dances from later playford editions are as well. Its a curious, but well acknowledged phenomina, the SCA is creatively anachronistic (Duct tape being much featured in all things). Practicality and commonsense in all things. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] [english 100%] Re: Edward Martin/who knows?
Antonio Corona wrote: Dana: Pavanna are dances, they are slow dances with the steps taken on the tactus, typically one step per modern measure. Lots of time for slow graceful showing off by the strutting peacocks. No matter if the tactus is subdivided triply or duply. As I stated above, the sixth "pavan" is by no means such a dance. As far as I can recall, I have never seen a pavan in triple time with the characteristic hemiola of the galliard. Speed has nothing to do with rythmic structure. I agree that the sixth pavan sounds like a gaillard. For my taste, a tempo of 120semibreves/min sounds best -- apt for a gaillard. But where is there a hemiola in the 6th pavan? (The breves at the section ends are perfect, i.e. have the value of three semibreves.) Karl -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
