[LUTE] Kapsperger
Does anyone in the list have this article: Victor Coelho, G.G. Kapsberger in Rome, 16041645: New Biographical Data.103. It belongs to LSA Volume XVI (1983). I would really appreciate if someone could scan and send it to me. I have been trying to buy it from the LSA but didn't receive any message back... Regards. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Tr : single second course on 10 course lutes [New Tunings]
Thanks, Taco. Of course conversions sometimes involved other changes. The point about the 10-11c conversion is that it could be done with the minimum of changes. Perhaps we make too strong a distinction between "renaissance" and "baroque" lutes. My guess is (based on my own experience of many years ago) that when you retuned your 10c in D minor tuning you felt it suddenly sounded like a different instrument? The structure of the lute remains the same, but the tuning, and the different patterns of resonance it produces, transform it into a "baroque" lute! I felt I suddenly understood why they changed the tuning - to get a different fundamental "sound". There is a parallel, of course, in the "open chord" tunings used by folk (and even rock) guitarists these days Best wishes, Martin Dear Martin It just struck me that a phase of intense tuning research occurred both on the Lute (in France) and the Viol (in England, but perhaps also in Celtic areas?) around the same period (early 17th century). Do you think this research was completely independant or at at least indirectly related? Could one have influenced the other, or might there have been a single independant influence on both, such as a revolution in the knowledge of soundwaves, or the discovery of some ancient text on classical tunings? Presumably, in both cases there was interest in developing tunings that increased sympathetic resonances (open chord types, etc...). Also on the lyra viol, some additional sympathetic strings, I believe, were added specifically for increasing sympathetic resonance. Was there simply a taste for the harmonic structure that such sympathetic resonance can give, or was this an attempt to increase the loudness of an instrument that might be beginning to be judged too subtle? About the single 2nd course, I noticed that when I first began playing the 11c lute, I found the rather thin top courses quite difficult to tame, as the thumb out position also seemed to effect my finger angle. The double third course was the most difficult to sound well, so I imagine a double second course would have been even more difficult. Julian Bream, I seem to remember had a 9c lute with a single second string, but even if these may have existed, I suspect it was his guitarist origins that made him prefer this solution. Might the modern tendency to make only single second string 11c lutes (even if these were historically most frequent) be again our inclination to standardize leading us to caricature historic tendencies ? Regards Anthony Taco Walstra wrote: On Mon, 2010-01-18 at 14:54 +, Martin Shepherd wrote: Thanks Martin en daniel for the interesting reply! My feeling is that playing technique <> have been a reason. What I understand from several players is that a double second on a baroque lute doesn't work very well, although perhaps a lot of hard work as Daniel mentions could help. By the way, was the conversion of a 10c to 11c only the addition of a bassrider or were there also changes made inside? taco Hi Taco, We have very little evidence for any of this, of course. But it seems extremely probable that the single 2nd came into being when people converted 10c lutes into 11c lutes, because it involved only the addition of a treble rider, a bass extension to the bridge, and an overhanging nut - no major rebuild of pegbox, no need to open the lute. There are plenty of 11c lutes with double 2nd in paintings and surviving lutes, perhaps they were new-built rather than conversions. Unusually, Thomas Mace seems to have used a double first as well as a double 2nd. Mary Burwell's author has it that the single 2nd is used because it is difficult to find two strings "to agree", but I suspect that the real reason is the ease of conversion from 10c to 11c. So I think it is very unlikely that 10c lutes ever had a single 2nd, in fact one might ask whether or not they had a double 1st, since double firsts were common in 7 and 8c lutes, and used also by Dowland on 9c lutes (1610). I'm not convinced that playing technique has anything to do with it, except that to a modern player used to the single strings of the guitar (and then the usual single top string of the modern lute), double strings can require some adjustment of technique. To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke - 'lute stop' evidence
Or they thought lute players were damp. Of course in German, that might mean "steamy." dt At 06:35 AM 1/21/2010, you wrote: >To add to the confusion: 17th c. harpsichord makers added another >feature called a buff stop that had the opposite effect - it pressed >leather pads against the strings to mute them. French and German >makers called this respectively a 'registre de luth' or 'Lautenzug'. >I have no idea why this would be considered lute-like - unless lute >players were damping the strings with the heel of their right hand? > >Andrew > >common in Flemish and English models but not Italians >On 21 Jan 2010, at 09:25, Martyn Hodgson wrote: > > >There seems to be some confusion here: the reference wasn't to > > exotic > >instruments (such as the lute-harpsichord/lautenclavicymbal etc) > > but to > >normal run of the mill English harpsichords in which an > > additional row > >of jacks placed closer to the bridge than the main ones was/is > > called > >the 'lute stop' (sometimes 'theorbo stop'). Hence my remark that > > this > >also supports a closer to the bridge (and more brittle/brilliant > > sound) > >hand position than is the fashion today for 'baroque' lutes. > > > >MH > > > > > >-- > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Help with LH fingering
I play the B flat chord striking the D only on the octave string of the 5th course, or I play it as writ on a smaller lute dt At 06:24 PM 1/20/2010, you wrote: >I've been working on Capirola's "Baleto da balar bello". The middle section >has some simple looking but tricky chord shifts which I've been trying in >various ways to make a smooth transition. Any recommendations? The section >is below in ascii tab (use a monospace font). The tricky palces are marked >with an *, but I'm not sure of the accuracy of the marking (e.g., the dotted >note toward the end belongs at the end--can't seem to find the right font on >my machine!). It's a Bb chord going to an Em? >Thanks and regards, >Leonard Williams > > > > | |\ > | | * > | | > __ _a__c__a_ _c__a _a_a_ a >|_c__d_|_c__d__c_|_d__c__d_|_c__d__c_|_d__c__d_| >|_d__f_|_|___f_|f|_f_f_| >|__|_|_|_|_| >|_a|_a___|_a___|_a___|_| >|__|_|_|_|_d___| > > >* > _ _ _ a _ >|_c__a|_a_a_|_c__a__c_|_d__c__d_|_c__a| >|_d__c__d_|_c__d__c_|_d__c__d_|_f_f_|_d__c__d_| >|___e_|e|_|_|___e_| >|_a___|_|_a___|_|_a___| >|_|_a___|_|_d___|_| > > > | > | > *|. > _ _ a _ _ ___ >|_a_a_|_c__a__c_|_d__c__d_|_c__a|_a_a_|_c_| >|_c__d__c_|_d__c__d_|_f_f_|_d__c__d_|_c__d__c_|_d_| >|e|_|_|___e_|e|___| >|_|_a___|_|_a___|_|_a_| >|_a___|_|_d___|_|_a___|___| > > > > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Help with LH fingering
I've always played this Capirola passage with my thumb stopping the Bb on course 6. Also some passages in Newsidler and Francesco da Milano. As Stephen says, it is a question of having the right 6 course, as this technique is only possible on a narrow neck. Most modern makers who produce copies of the Gerle, which has (I think) a width at the nut of 42mm (and therefore a string band at the nut of less than 40 mm) , widen it to keep their customers happy. I wish they wouldn't, as this makes them much less comfortable for the sort left hand positions often seen in early paintings. Also, I feel left and right hand techniques are related here. Thumb over the top of the neck means that the lute can be comfortably held at a much lower angle, thus making it easier for the early RH position with the forearm nearly parallel to the centreline of the lute. As well as being used by modern electric players, the LH thumb technique was widely used by C19th guitarists, notably Giuliani, who often notates it. The slow movement of his sonata is a very good example. It allows the player to avoid barres, and thus use open strings or stopped notes lower than the fret at which the barre would be placed. Sor speaks disapprovingly of the technique, however, in (I think) his tutor.. Martin E On 21/1/10 19:08, "Stephen Fryer" wrote: > Leonard Williams wrote: >> I've been working on Capirola's "Baleto da balar bello". The middle section >> has some simple looking but tricky chord shifts which I've been trying in >> various ways to make a smooth transition. Any recommendations? The section >> is below in ascii tab (use a monospace font). The tricky palces are marked >> with an *, but I'm not sure of the accuracy of the marking (e.g., the dotted >> note toward the end belongs at the end--can't seem to find the right font on >> my machine!). It's a Bb chord going to an Em? >> Thanks and regards, >> Leonard Williams > > The problem of fretting the sixth string pretty much goes away if you > have the right 6-course lute and can stop it with your thumb. This is a > common technique with electric guitar and seems to be indicated as a > possibility in the introduction to the Capirola MS ( > http://www.marincola.com/lutebot1.txt ). > > Stephen Fryer > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Help with LH fingering
Hi, all, I agree, a great link to the Capirola translation. Just a note -- the LH thumb technique mentioned has only recently been universally frowned on in the classical guitar world, and primarily since the Segovia revolution (I know -- here he goes again!). For one example, J. K. Mertz specifically notates for it in several places (see his "Kuckuck"); I don't know off-hand about other, more Spanish sources, but it's also called for in several of the American 19th/early 20th c. guitar books I work from. I'm sure some current composers are using it again. I've used it for this guitar music, though it takes getting used to (like any modification of one's established technique), and I find that usually I can go either way without seriously affecting the music. My lute is 10-course, so I can't try it out with Capirola. As a probably OT aside, brushing several strings with the RH thumb is also far more common in the 19th c. guitar repertoires mentioned (see the thumb rest stroke thread) than other classical genres, as are huge "slides," like 2nd fret to 10th fret, and sometimes back -- potentially disastrous with tied frets! I bet Eugene knows a lot more about this than I do. In re: Dave van Ronk: I'd have to take a closer look, but I think Richie Havens frets at least 3 strings, maybe 4, with his thumb. He's using an "open-chord" tuning, of course, with lots of strummed chords. Best to all, and keep playing. Chris. >>> Daniel Winheld 1/21/2010 3:04 PM >>> Thank you Stephan for this link. Great to have all this info. As to using that left thumb effectively, I appreciate how you mention "the right" 6 course lute. Mine sure isn't, and it is not a particularly wide neck. On the other hand, coming from (originally) classical guitar which frowned vehemently on such LH usage, I have no skill or experience with this technique- which I have seen used by non-classical guitarists ONLY on very narrow neck guitars; but some of them do it with exquisite skill, rolling the hand into the neck and slipping that thumb over and onto the 6th string quickly, neatly, and accurately- then rolling right off it, and coming around almost instantly to do a full and very correct bar chord. I read somewhere that David van Ronk, (very large hands) could even fret the 5th string with his thumb. Different story for me, and of course anyone with 7 or more courses. I dug out my Capirola and tried out the fingering that I posted hastily last night, (the essence of which involves using the 2nd, middle finger instead of the putative thumb) and all works very smoothly for me at any reasonable tempo. Nice piece, too- I hadn't noticed it before. I hope we can look forward to the day when some lute players- perhaps specialists in 5 and very early 6 course lutes- can show us these techniques in use. Dan >The problem of fretting the sixth string pretty much goes away if >you have the right 6-course lute and can stop it with your thumb. >This is a common technique with electric guitar and seems to be >indicated as a possibility in the introduction to the Capirola MS ( >http://www.marincola.com/lutebot1.txt ). > >Stephen Fryer -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References Visible links 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute Hidden links: 2. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/19/jon-stewart-gets-fed-up-d_n_427917.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke - 'lute stop' evidence
Howard, --- On Thu, 1/21/10, howard posner wrote: > > But I agree with Andrew (if indeed he meant to make this > point) that > it's a mistake to extrapolate lute tone from the names of > harpsichord > stops, as the opposite conclusions you could draw from the > English > lute stop and the French/German one show. Yes, it would be a mistake to model one's tone exclusively on a keyboard device. We simply don't know to what degree the lute stop(s) were meant to approximate the lute's timbre. (As Martyn noted, the two types stops are not contradictory but reflect two different aspects of the instrument: i.e. its tone and sustain.) Its rather a matter of the sound of the harpsichord mechanism not contradicting the written and pictorial sources specific to the lute. Chris > > Or it may simply be that a harpsichord maker came up with > an effect > he liked and had to call it something, and it sounded more > like a > lute than a violin or trombone. > > For some perspective, consider the "bassoon stop" on late > 18th- > century pianos. It was a strip of parchment that > touched the strings > and made them buzz. It didn't sound like a bassoon, > but it did sound > more like a bassoon than it sounded like a violin or > trombone. Any > bassoonist who used it as any sort of guide in his playing > would be > on a fool's errand. > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke - 'lute stop' evidence
The buff stop (also found on other schools of harpsichords) does not have 'the opposite effect' to the 'lute' stop: it is simply a damping mechanism (akin to the modern damping tecgnique on the guitar in which the fleshy outside edge of the right hand touches, and hence damps, the strings). The link with the lute is presumably that it reduces the otherwise very long sustain of metal strung harpsichords to something closer to that of a gut strung instrument MH --- On Thu, 21/1/10, Andrew Gibbs wrote: From: Andrew Gibbs Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thumb rest stroke - 'lute stop' evidence To: "Lutelist list" Date: Thursday, 21 January, 2010, 14:35 To add to the confusion: 17th c. harpsichord makers added another feature called a buff stop that had the opposite effect - it pressed leather pads against the strings to mute them. French and German makers called this respectively a 'registre de luth' or 'Lautenzug'. I have no idea why this would be considered lute-like - unless lute players were damping the strings with the heel of their right hand? Andrew common in Flemish and English models but not Italians On 21 Jan 2010, at 09:25, Martyn Hodgson wrote: >There seems to be some confusion here: the reference wasn't to > exotic >instruments (such as the lute-harpsichord/lautenclavicymbal etc) > but to >normal run of the mill English harpsichords in which an > additional row >of jacks placed closer to the bridge than the main ones was/is > called >the 'lute stop' (sometimes 'theorbo stop'). Hence my remark that > this >also supports a closer to the bridge (and more brittle/brilliant > sound) >hand position than is the fashion today for 'baroque' lutes. > >MH -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
