[LUTE] Re: Le Roy Dentice and Octave stringing
Matthias, I am not quite sure why we may infer the following: I understand the author as saying that a) he himself has an octave string with his 5th course, as opposed to b) Dentice and followers (Italians in general?) who have unisons for the 5th course. One may infer that Dentice also had unisons for his 4th course. Mathias I have unissons on the 5th course of my 7c lute, but octaves on my fourth, but perhaps I have missed something. Regards Anthony __ De : Mathias Roesel mathias.roe...@t-online.de A : 'Lute Net' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Jeudi 24 Novembre 2011 17h35 Objet : [LUTE] Re: Le Roy Dentice and Octave stringing Neverthelesse the Tune self of the same .F. Is found in the same compainie, and eight of the greate fift stryng: which reason could not be in Lutes, tuned after the manner of Fabrice Dentice the Italian, and other his followers. Where those strynges that satnde twoo and twoo together, bee sette in one Tune and not by eightes, which thei do for a perfection of harmonie, in avoiding many unissons, which those eight would cause. 2. I understand Le Roy is saying that Dentice used a unison 5th course, not just a unison 4th. Is this right? I understand the author as saying that a) he himself has an octave string with his 5th course, as opposed to b) Dentice and followers (Italians in general?) who have unisons for the 5th course. One may infer that Dentice also had unisons for his 4th course. Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Le Roy Dentice and Octave stringing
On Nov 25, 2011, at 5:04 AM, Anthony Hind wrote: Mathias I have unissons on the 5th course of my 7c lute, but octaves on my fourth, but perhaps I have missed something. Only that your stringing is very unusual, if not unique. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Le Roy Dentice and Octave stringing
You are right of course, and I do have unissons on the fourth and fifth, but octaves beginning on the 6th. I wasn't thinking straight, but vaguely remembering that someone jumped to the conclusion that because I had unissons on the fifth I also had them on the sixth, which of course is not at all the same thing. Appologies, Miles and Matthias, for my half-awake state, in spite of the late hour. Regards Anthony __ De : Miles Dempster miles.demps...@gmail.com A : Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Vendredi 25 Novembre 2011 14h43 Objet : [LUTE] Re: Le Roy Dentice and Octave stringing My understanding is that, generally speaking, the purpose of the octave is to brighten up a course which would otherwise sound too muddy. Since 'muddiness' increases with string thickness, if the 5th course doesn't need an octave, then why would the 4th course would need one? Miles On 2011-11-25, at 8:04 AM, Anthony Hind wrote: Matthias, I am not quite sure why we may infer the following: I understand the author as saying that a) he himself has an octave string with his 5th course, as opposed to b) Dentice and followers (Italians in general?) who have unisons for the 5th course. One may infer that Dentice also had unisons for his 4th course. Mathias I have unissons on the 5th course of my 7c lute, but octaves on my fourth, but perhaps I have missed something. Regards Anthony __ De : Mathias Roesel [1]mathias.roe...@t-online.de A : 'Lute Net' [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Jeudi 24 Novembre 2011 17h35 Objet : [LUTE] Re: Le Roy Dentice and Octave stringing Neverthelesse the Tune self of the same .F. Is found in the same compainie, and eight of the greate fift stryng: which reason could not be in Lutes, tuned after the manner of Fabrice Dentice the Italian, and other his followers. Where those strynges that satnde twoo and twoo together, bee sette in one Tune and not by eightes, which thei do for a perfection of harmonie, in avoiding many unissons, which those eight would cause. 2. I understand Le Roy is saying that Dentice used a unison 5th course, not just a unison 4th. Is this right? I understand the author as saying that a) he himself has an octave string with his 5th course, as opposed to b) Dentice and followers (Italians in general?) who have unisons for the 5th course. One may infer that Dentice also had unisons for his 4th course. Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at [1][3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html -- -- References 1. mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de 2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Le Roy Dentice and Octave stringing
I personally like the sound of octaves starting on the 5th course and going down.A I have always found the 4th in octaves to be difficult at tuning.A On my soprano lute 6 course however, I use unisons. A Bruno On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 9:04 AM, Anthony Hind [1]agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote: A You are right of course, A and I do have unissons on the fourth and A fifth, but octaves beginning on the 6th. A I wasn't thinking straight, but vaguely remembering that someone jumped A to the conclusion that because I A had unissons on the fifth I also had them on the sixth, which of course A is not at all the same thing. Appologies, Miles and Matthias, for A my half-awake state, in spite of the late hour. A Regards A Anthony A A __ A De : Miles Dempster [2]miles.demps...@gmail.com A A : Lute List [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu A Envoye le : Vendredi 25 Novembre 2011 14h43 A Objet : [LUTE] Re: Le Roy Dentice and Octave stringing A My understanding is that, generally speaking, the purpose of the octave A is to brighten up a course which would otherwise sound too muddy. A Since 'muddiness' increases with string thickness, if the 5th course A doesn't need an octave, then why would the 4th course would need one? A Miles A On 2011-11-25, at 8:04 AM, Anthony Hind wrote: A A Matthias, I am not quite sure why we may infer the following: A A I understand the author as saying that a) he himself has an octave A A string A A with his 5th course, as opposed to b) Dentice and followers A (Italians A A in A A general?) who have unisons for the 5th course. One may infer that A A Dentice A A also had unisons for his 4th course. Mathias A A I have unissons on the 5th course of my 7c lute, but octaves on my A A fourth, but perhaps I have missed something. A A Regards A A Anthony A A A __ A A A De : Mathias Roesel [1][4]mathias.roe...@t-online.de A A A : 'Lute Net' [2][5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu A A Envoye le : Jeudi 24 Novembre 2011 17h35 A A Objet : [LUTE] Re: Le Roy Dentice and Octave stringing A Neverthelesse the Tune self of the same .F. Is found in the same A compainie, and eight of the greate fift stryng: A which reason could not be in Lutes, tuned after the manner of A Fabrice A A Dentice A the Italian, and other his followers. Where those strynges that A A satnde A A twoo and A twoo together, bee sette in one Tune and not by eightes, which thei A A do for A A a A perfection of harmonie, in avoiding many unissons, which those eight A A would A cause. A 2. I understand Le Roy is saying that Dentice used a unison 5th A A course, A A not just a A unison 4th. Is this right? A A I understand the author as saying that a) he himself has an octave A A string A A with his 5th course, as opposed to b) Dentice and followers A (Italians A A in A A general?) who have unisons for the 5th course. One may infer that A A Dentice A A also had unisons for his 4th course. A A Mathias A A To get on or off this list see list information at A A [1][3][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html A A A -- A A References A A A 1. [4][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html A A -- A -- References A 1. mailto:[8]mathias.roe...@t-online.de A 2. mailto:[9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu A 3. [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html A 4. [11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html -- A Bruno Cognyl-Fournier A [12]www.estavel.org A -- References 1. mailto:agno3ph...@yahoo.com 2. mailto:miles.demps...@gmail.com 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de 5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 8. mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de 9. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 12. http://www.estavel.org/
[LUTE] Re: Le Roy Dentice and Octave stringing
Bruno, I think it may depend on the stringing you use. Some 5th course basses really do need octave stringing, but 5c unissons with Venice Meanes do seem acceptable. In fact, I adopted this pattern, with unissons from 5c up, because I assumed it to be a possible historical late renaissance tuning, for a 7 course lute with the 7th tuned to D ; but didn't quite like the result with a pair of 5c unisson Lyons. The Lyons would no doubt have been better with an octave, but what bothered me was a sort of break in the Meanes area, between the 5c Lyons and the 4c HTs. I wanted a more homogenous sound for 5c and 4c. This was the reason for which I adopted Venices, as I could have Venices unissons both on 5 and 4c (there are no Lyons available for 4c). I felt the result was both more Meanes homogenous, and the Venices had sufficient harmonicity, not to absolutely cry out for octaves, as the Lyons did (nothing wrong with the lyons per se) % Like yourself, I was striving to achieve the best sound with a particular lute type and stringing; however, as Martin Shepherd has explained, the music might actually indicate quite a different string pattern: One of my examples from Cutting (not in the message you quote, I think) is the Pavan Sans per and its galliard, which makes extensive use of a 7th at D but only makes sense with an octave on the 4th course. This suggests he had good enough strings to be able to do complicated stuff with the 7th course but still used an octave on the 4th (out of tradition? habit? because he simply liked it that way?).Martin % This rather goes against looking for one perfect stringing for a lute (as I admit I was doing), I suppose we should restring for each piece, or ideally have several lutes tuned for the pieces we intend to play. % Martin goes on to explain, that even Dowland's music seems to be calling for octaves on 4 and 5c, in spite of his theoretical support of unisson: % The music often suggests octaves when a cadence is resolved at the wrong octave, or a scale passage jumps octave for no apparent reason, or a note which is needed for correct voice leading or point of imitation is apparently missing but supplied by the upper octave of a lower course.(...) % (...) Dowland, Queen Elizabeth's Galliard, VLL Galliard 2(Poulton no.41) bar 6: -f--c-d---!-a-c---a-!--- -c--a-a---!-a-c-!-e- --!---f-e---!-a- -e--a-c-a-!-!--- c-!-e-c-!-c- -ca---!-d---c---!--- (the descending scale c4, a4, e5, c5 needs to be an octave higher to connect with the f3 in the 4/3 suspension at the cadence. Octaves on courses 4 and 5 solve the problem. Octave on course 5 also allows the e to resolve at the correct octavein the final chord). Martin % http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg19978.html Regards Anthony __ De : Bruno Fournier br...@estavel.org A : Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com Cc : Miles Dempster miles.demps...@gmail.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Vendredi 25 Novembre 2011 15h12 Objet : [LUTE] Re: Le Roy Dentice and Octave stringing I personally like the sound of octaves starting on the 5th course and going down.A I have always found the 4th in octaves to be difficult at tuning.A On my soprano lute 6 course however, I use unisons. A Bruno On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 9:04 AM, Anthony Hind [1][1]agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote: A You are right of course, A and I do have unissons on the fourth and A fifth, but octaves beginning on the 6th. A I wasn't thinking straight, but vaguely remembering that someone jumped A to the conclusion that because I A had unissons on the fifth I also had them on the sixth, which of course A is not at all the same thing. Appologies, Miles and Matthias, for A my half-awake state, in spite of the late hour. A Regards A Anthony A A __ A De : Miles Dempster [2][2]miles.demps...@gmail.com A A : Lute List [3][3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu A Envoye le : Vendredi 25 Novembre 2011 14h43 A Objet : [LUTE] Re: Le Roy Dentice and Octave stringing A My understanding is that, generally speaking, the purpose of the octave A is to brighten up a course which would otherwise sound too muddy. A Since 'muddiness' increases with string thickness, if the 5th course A doesn't need an octave, then why would the 4th course would need one? A Miles A On 2011-11-25, at 8:04 AM, Anthony Hind wrote: A A Matthias, I am not quite sure why we may infer the following: A
[LUTE] Weird early chitarrone experiment?
I'm looking for a picture of an early chitarrone which, instead of an extended neck, had an extended body with two bridges (by one of the Tieffenbruckers, I think). Can anyone direct me to one? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Le Roy Dentice and Octave stringing
On 25/11/2011 23:14, Martin Eastwell eastwe...@mac.com wrote: Hi Anthony Having looked up Martin Shepherd's 2007 post from your link http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg19978.html I'm quite convinced by the Holborne and Cutting examples he gives- Cutting, Galliard, Euing f.29 (Burgers no.22)bar 13: -!- -a---a-c-d---b---!- ---d---a-!-b-a-b--- -!- -c-c-a---!---a-c--- -!-d-d- (the two notes on the 5th course in the second bar could be an octave higher) Holborne, Patiencia, Euing f.39v. (aus dem Spring no.23) bar 52: --c-c---!--- --c-c---f---!-a- --f-e-c-e-f-c-e-!-a- e---!-b- !-c- --c-!--- (the f on the 2nd course resolves onto the upper octave b of the 4th course) Dowland, Queen Elizabeth's Galliard, VLL Galliard 2(Poulton no.41) bar 6: -f--c-d---!-a-c---a-!--- -c--a-a---!-a-c-!-e- --!---f-e---!-a- -e--a-c-a-!-!--- c-!-e-c-!-c- -ca---!-d---c---!--- (the descending scale c4, a4, e5, c5 needs to be an octave higher to connect with the f3 in the 4/3 suspension at the cadence. Octaves on courses 4 and 5 solve the problem. Octave on course 5 also allows the e to resolve at the correct octavein the final chord) (Yes I know VLL is the very source where Dowland recommends unisons, but this piece was written before 1591 as it appears in Dd.2.11 as K Darcyes Galliard (f.59) - K.Darcy became Lady Clifton in 1591). Sorry about the lack of rhythm signs -less so by the Dowland-I see what he means, but it doesn't sound bad to me. In connection with Cutting and Dowland (or has someone already pointed this out?), it is worth mentioning that William Barley's A new book of Tabliture (1596) reprints Le Roy's Instructions, complete with directions for octave stringing on courses 4 to 6, and the lute music in the book is all by either Dowland or Cutting, and for 6 course lute (though the orpharion and bandora sections of the book use 7 courses. My feeling about octave vs. unison stringing is that it is to some extent connected with the change to thumb outside technique. Assuming all gut stringing and thumb under technique, my experience of many years is that lutes with unison stringing sound rather murky. The basses have lost the brightness provided by octave strings, and the warm treble sound inherent in thumb under technique seems to merge with them in a rather unsatisfactory manner. Played thumb out, where the fingers are significantly closer to the bridge (relative to the thumb), the brighter treble seems to be lifted out of the texture by virtue of a different tone colour. The comments in the Stobeus Ms instructions seem to be thinking along the same lines: For it has been shown to be much better to strike with the thumb outwards. This sounds clearer, crisper and brighter. The other sounds very dull and muffled. This reminds me very much of the sort of things mix engineers in the rock/pop world do. They are very concerned that each instrument in a band should occupy its own space in the frequency spectrum, and not get in each other's way. Often they will electronically equalise sounds to make this work-for example filtering the low frequencies off a strummed acoustic guitar so that it does not conflict with the bass. On its own, the guitar sounds poor, but it sits better in the mix. I'll be talking about this and related things at a meeting of the UK Lute society in Feb. Best wishes Martin (Eastwell, not Shepherd!) On 25/11/2011 15:54, Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote: Bruno, I think it may depend on the stringing you use. Some 5th course basses really do need octave stringing, but 5c unissons with Venice Meanes do seem acceptable. In fact, I adopted this pattern, with unissons from 5c up, because I assumed it to be a possible historical late renaissance tuning, for a 7 course lute with the 7th tuned to D ; but didn't quite like the result with a pair of 5c unisson Lyons. The Lyons would no doubt have been better with an octave, but what bothered me was a sort of break in the Meanes area, between the 5c Lyons and the 4c HTs. I wanted a more homogenous sound for 5c and 4c. This was the reason for which I adopted Venices, as I could have Venices unissons both on 5 and 4c (there are no Lyons available for 4c). I felt the result was both more Meanes homogenous, and the Venices had sufficient harmonicity, not to absolutely cry out for octaves, as the Lyons did (nothing wrong with the lyons per se) % Like yourself, I was striving to achieve the best sound with a particular lute type and stringing; however, as Martin Shepherd has explained, the music might actually indicate quite a different string
[LUTE] Martin Eastman's post
I accidentally deleted a post by Martin Eastman (I think that's the last name) attached to the thread on octave/unison tuning in which he talks about differences in sound - related to these tunings - using thumb out or in (I was trying to delete extraneous parts of the post and just print Martin's comments). If someone could forward it to me, I would appreciate it, as I'm trying to formulate my right hand technique and the tuning of my instrument, and want to consider more carefully what he is saying. Or if you still have it Martin, perhaps you could send it to me. Thanks, Ned nedma...@aol.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Strike the viol
A new Purcell video from The Purcell Project, Strike the viol, arranged for Tenor, two violins and continuo. The music and figures were drawn from Orpheus Britannicus and Come ye Sons of Art. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3YDL2VrkZEhd=1 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Weird early chitarrone experiment?
you can find a picture here, in my dissertation about chitarrone: http://www.diegocantalupi.it/tesi.pdf Diego Inviato da iPad Il giorno 25/nov/2011, alle ore 23:37, howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com ha scritto: I'm looking for a picture of an early chitarrone which, instead of an extended neck, had an extended body with two bridges (by one of the Tieffenbruckers, I think). Can anyone direct me to one? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Weird early chitarrone experiment?
On Nov 25, 2011, at 10:37 PM, Diego Cantalupi wrote: you can find a picture here, in my dissertation about chitarrone: Thank you, Diego. I downloaded your dissertation months ago, but with my limited Italian, it might have taken the rest of my life to get to page 38. The instrument is even stranger than I remembered. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
