[LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy
On 26/01/13 22:38, William Samson wrote: I'll also ask the collective wisdom if they know of any solo Italian repertoire for this instrument before I go and make one. Well, I already made mine in the 1990's and web-published those in 2008. There is one Cazzati and a couple of Zannetis, see my page http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/own/Chitarrino/ for my "facsimilies"! :-) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy
And just to drop another rock in the crocodile pool, I'll just mention that there doesn't seem to be any obvious octave stringing on this instrument. I'll also ask the collective wisdom if they know of any solo Italian repertoire for this instrument before I go and make one. Bill PS It seems to me that it shares the looks (on a smaller scale) of one of the surviving gallichons. From: Andreas Schlegel To: William Samson Sent: Saturday, 26 January 2013, 20:18 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy It's anonymous, Galleria Doria Pamphilj in Rome. Meucci dates it on "1620 ca.". By the way: I think it's dangerous to speak from "guitar" in this context, because the modern meaning of that term is not the same as the old one with the "kythara" background. If we hear "guitar", it's an 8-shaped instrument in our thinking. If we speak from "chitarra" (with quotation marks) it's exactly the double meaning: "chitarra spagnola" is the 8-shaped and "chitarra italiana" is the lute shaped type of "kythara". Andreas Am 26.01.2013 um 20:52 schrieb William Samson: Thanks Andreas! Do you know who the artist is, and date perhaps? Bill From: Andreas Schlegel <[1]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch> To: William Samson <[2]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> Sent: Saturday, 26 January 2013, 19:50 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy That's figure 7 in Meucci's paper "New light on the origin of the chitarrone and related instruments" in: Christian Ahrens & Gregor Klinke (ed.): Laute und Theorbe. Symposium im Rahmen der 31. Tage Alter Musik in Herne 2006, Muenchen & Salzburg (Katzbichler) 2009, p. 10-29. It's so simple: The word "kythara" (from which many different new word creations like chitarra, gittern etc. were made) means in the Renaissance a plucked instrument in general - lute shaped or 8-shaped - and was adopted to both shapes. It's a modern idea, that modern versions of the term "kythara" only means 8-shaped instruments. Take the term "Chitarrone" who means a big chitarra - and have a look on the shape of that instrument. Andreas Am 26.01.2013 um 19:50 schrieb William Samson: > I came across this picture of a lute with 4 courses. Could this be one > of the lute-shaped guitars? > > [1][3]http://sdrv.ms/10Q9ifI > > Hope you can see this link to my Skydrive. > > Bill > > -- > > References > > 1. [4]http://sdrv.ms/10Q9ifI > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:lute.cor...@sunrise.ch 2. mailto:willsam...@yahoo.co.uk 3. http://sdrv.ms/10Q9ifI 4. http://sdrv.ms/10Q9ifI 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bransle Simple for guitarne et guiterne (Gervaise 1557)
On 26/01/2013 13:06, Pieter Van Tichelen wrote: Hello Monica, Stuart relates to some of the written sources in 16th century France - inventories of builders in Paris made when they died. Yes, I was just quoting the sources you mentioned in your email, Pieter. Some of these inventories try to distinguish between "guiterne" and "guitarne" (spelling variations on these exist of course, losing the "n" for example). You can't just prove that the "guiterne" was the lute-like and "guitarne" the figure-8 shaped instrument or the other way around, but some of the source do add a but of context like "viel lucz a guitarne" (old lute-like gitterns). Perhaps confusingly - and I believe Stuart seems to be fallen a victim - I found more cases where "lute" context seemed to be related the spelling with an "a". Oh no! I've got my guitarnes and guiternes mixed up! I must read what you have written more carefully. It is confusing stuff, and I doubt if we will be able to get any ground-braking theories from the little facts at hand, but some definite things that can be concluded: - inventories from builders in Paris seemed to contains instruments that required a differentiation between a guiterne and guitarne - some of these instruments get some context that point towards the lute, most logically then pointing to the old lute-like gittern (the word "old" even showes up sometimes) Well that last sentence is getting very tentative. As you say, maybe not enough is known about the matter. I think you are saying that these inventories give a reasonable suggestion of the existence of 'the old lute-like gittern' in France in the 16th century. (And you also say elsewhere that this instrument is not to be confused with the mandore). Meucci (thank you Monica!) finds a reference from Bologna1627, an inventory of 50 Chitare all spagnole and 50 chitarre all'italiana. This too makes a distinction between two kinds of guitar and presumably is the same distinction between being made in the French inventories - between a figure-of-eight guitar and a lute-like guitar. Pieter- can you spell it out for me: which one (guitare/guitarne---guitere/guitere) is (with caveats etc) likely to be the figure-of-eight and which the lute-like one?! Stuart I hope this clears things up a bit? Kind regards, Pieter Van: "Monica Hall" [1] Verzonden: vrijdag 25 januari 2013 21:36 Aan: "WALSH STUART" [2] Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: Bransle Simple for guitarne et guiterne (Gervaise 1557) I am getting more confused as the day wears on Monica - Original Message - From: "WALSH STUART" [3] To: "Monica Hall" [4] Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 7:50 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bransle Simple for guitarne et guiterne (Gervaise 1557) > On 25/01/2013 17:23, Monica Hall wrote: >> Why is it called a guitarne? >> >> Monica >> > > > Monica > > I was being slightly mischievous. But Pieter wrote in a recent email: > > "If the source is French and from after 1540, be careful as it might be > either for "guitar" or "gittern". Interestingly enough, some inventories > of instrument makers like the Denis builders seem to have tried to make a > distinction between a "guitarne" and a "guiterne" (where the guiterne has > "fondz de lut" or a lute back). I therefore would place it that a source > putting an "a" guitar(n)e in France in the second half of the > 16th century is not referring to the lute-like instrument." > > So if Pieter knows what he is talking about, there are grounds for > 'guitarne' = figure-of-eight guitar, at least in mid 16th C France. He > continues: > > > > "This however doesn't discount that there are numerous cases where the > figure-8 shaped instrument was called guiterne in French sources of the > same period. It can however be a good guideline if come across that > particular spelling with an "a". However in some cases even this > rule can't be followed, the inventory of yet another instrument builder, > Pierre Aubry in 1596, has "viels lucs de guitarne" - suggesting the > old lute-like gittern." > > Do you know who Pieter is? Nice job if he spends all day researching > gitterns! > > Interesting response just now form Gary Boye on the chitarra italiana. I > hope some day you can translate the second part of Meucci. Interesting > that Gary Boye notes that in Italy the chitarra italiana was a four-course > instrument. > > So we have the 'guiterne' (the lute-l
[LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy
Looks great. You'll have to make one, Bill... Rob www.robmackillop.net On 26 Jan 2013, at 18:50, William Samson wrote: > I came across this picture of a lute with 4 courses. Could this be one > of the lute-shaped guitars? > > [1]http://sdrv.ms/10Q9ifI > > Hope you can see this link to my Skydrive. > > Bill > > -- > > References > > 1. http://sdrv.ms/10Q9ifI > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy
Absolutely. RT On 1/26/2013 1:50 PM, William Samson wrote: I came across this picture of a lute with 4 courses. Could this be one of the lute-shaped guitars? [1]http://sdrv.ms/10Q9ifI Hope you can see this link to my Skydrive. Bill -- References 1. http://sdrv.ms/10Q9ifI To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy
I came across this picture of a lute with 4 courses. Could this be one of the lute-shaped guitars? [1]http://sdrv.ms/10Q9ifI Hope you can see this link to my Skydrive. Bill -- References 1. http://sdrv.ms/10Q9ifI To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy
Read the article. - Original Message - From: "howard posner" To: "Lutelist list" Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 5:09 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy On Jan 25, 2013, at 9:41 AM, Monica Hall wrote: Meucci gives a whole series of references which support his contention that in Italian sources the terms chitarra or chitarrino refer to a small lute whatever they may refer to in any other language. Amongst the latest of these are - Cerreto (1601) - Strumento della chitarra à sette corde, detto Bordelletto alla Taliana (i.e. all'Italiana) Vocabolario della Crusca which in the first edition of 1612 defines Chitarra as - A kind of lute, which lacks the bass and soprano. Pietro Millioni (Rome 1627) certain pieces are dedicated to the "chitarrino overo ghitarra italiana". Maybe, I'm missing something: how do the first and third references support the contention that chitarra and chitarrino refer to lute and not guitar/proto-guitar? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy
On Jan 25, 2013, at 9:41 AM, Monica Hall wrote: > Meucci gives a whole series of references which support his contention that > in Italian sources the terms chitarra or chitarrino refer to a small lute > whatever they may refer to in any other language. Amongst the latest of > these are - > > Cerreto (1601) - Strumento della chitarra à sette corde, detto Bordelletto > alla Taliana (i.e. all'Italiana) > > Vocabolario della Crusca which in the first edition of 1612 defines Chitarra > as - A kind of lute, which lacks the bass and soprano. > > Pietro Millioni (Rome 1627) certain pieces are dedicated to the "chitarrino > overo ghitarra italiana". Maybe, I'm missing something: how do the first and third references support the contention that chitarra and chitarrino refer to lute and not guitar/proto-guitar? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Saturday quotes
Amid all the discussion of strings and such, our Saturday morning quotes are posted. This week, Dowland and patronage. [1]http://wp.me/p15OyV-Dg Ron & Donna -- References 1. http://wp.me/p15OyV-Dg To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de StrAmbotto
Interesting questions. Let me first quote Belon entirely: "L'autre sorte de Lut est de moyenne grandeur, & plus commune que n'est le susdit: & est semblable `a une Guiterne, mais plus harmonieux, & beaucoup plus difficile `a sonner: & n'a que sept cordes non plus que nostre Guiterne. Mais l'accord en est different & moult propre `a sonner des bransles `a la mode Turquoise & `a la Gregeoise. Il est plus en usage entre les gens de marine, & principalement ceux que les Grecs noment Palameriti, comme de la Moree, Eubee, & isles de la mer Egee, que de ceux qui sont residens en terre ferme de Natolie. Il n'y a point de touches comme `a la Guiterne: mais l'ayans accorde & mis des touches, nous en sommes servis pour Guiterne. Elle a aussi une chanterelle derriere dessus la grosse corde du bourdon, qui monte `a l'octave de la chanterelle de devant. Et pour la faire sonner si haut, ilz la laissent courte, ayant sa cheville bien bas au coste du manche [...] celle de la marine, qui n'a aucunes touches se sonne tant en raclant & en pinc,ant comme le Lut & Guiterne. Elle est faite d'une piece de bois qui ne fend jamais, qui est celle espece de Savinier dont avons parle estans sur le mont Taurus. La moitie de sa table est de son bois mesme, mais le reste est de la peau d'un poisson, qui a este diversement nomme: car nous trouvons qu'il a este nomme anciennement, & par Aristote Hyena piscis, & Silurus. Mais pour l'heure presente les Grecs l'appellent Glagnion. Le chevalet du susdit Lut est assis dessus la peau du poisson, qui tient les cordes haucees comme `a un Violon. Lon en trouve de madrez, qui coustent plus de six ducats: & se trouve gens de marine qui ne plaignent point les acheter `a tel pris." So we're looking for an instrument used in 16-century Greece, especially linked with sailors, made from one piece of wood without frets and with 7 strings (courses of two and one single) and strangley enough part of the table in a sort of fish-skin. It seems even to have been a costly instrument but highly sought after by sailors. The closest I get is the tambur and suchlike instruments (perhaps some sort of colascione?). As to iconography in the 16th century: there is some - for example the picture of the "quinterna/lutina" in the works of Virdung / Agricola Nachtgall, and even some in paintings though I've still to undertake my investigations for the 16th century in that area. The old gittern seems to have been mainly used as either an instrument for vocal accompaniment or the "tenorista" playing of a free counterpoint to a known voice/instrument. I have not found dance-related links to the gittern; as opposed to the mandore where the instrument seems to be almost exlusively linked to that part of the repertory. However, there are only little sources and hints to repertory so we remain a bit in the dark there. I would say that it makes sense that the lute-like gittern in it's latest form (really lute-like with ribs as the back and courses) was used for almost the same things a lute was used at the time (the tuning in the later form of the gittern was basically the same intervals than the lute, so it makes perfect sense). One important remark though is that the gitterns seems to be consistently played with a plectrum throughout its history, even after the lute switched to fingerstyle plucking. Kind regards, Pieter ___ Van: "WALSH STUART" Verzonden: donderdag 24 januari 2013 22:32 Aan: pie...@vantichelen.name Onderwerp: Re: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de StrAmbotto On 23/01/2013 07:54, Pieter Van Tichelen wrote: > >Well I would be interested to read more of what you have found out! > I'm only too glad to tell but how much time have you got? ;) This > really is my bread and butter so it's harder for me to stop than start. ... Nice bread and butter! . > but I've seen so many plucked string instrument names reused that I don't really wonder about > that any more. :) ... . Yes indeed. This sort of thing drives some people mad. I think it's fun. > > >> However, other contempary French sources use the same name for the > >> lute-like instrument too. (For example, Pierre Belon observes in > 1553 a > >> certain lute-like instrument from Eastern Europe which he compares > to > >> the "guiterne", thereby showing some characteristics that point to > the > >> lute-shaped instrument, even pointing out it's made from one piece > of
[LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de StrAmbotto
Hello, Just another comment - even James Tyler in the "Early Mandolin" already points the way towards differentiation between lute-like gittern and mandore. I didn't exactly "invent" this view but I merely elaborated in the course of my research. (I must warn you that Tyler got confused in some of his early articles though.) The inventories clearly mark a difference between the mandores, lute-like guitterns and other guitterns (which I presume to be the figure-8 shaped instruments). Don't interprete all the "guitterns" in the inventories as the figure-8 shaped instruments, or consider the lute-like gittern to have been written down as "mandore". Though there are similarities, there are quite a few distinct differences between the lute-like gittern and the mandore in the 16th/early 17th century. NB: using the word "mandora" for either the gittern (or even mandore) should really be discouraged. It's just too confusing with the later lute-like instrument. If Christian Rault's paper really stated that the gittern was called "mandora" in the Renaissance I'd like to see some sources to prove that statement. There are quite a few people who started to use the term for the mandore based on Kircher and just "assumed" is was the same instrument that the gittern. I've still to see the first proof that the term "mandora" was used for the gittern in any source predating Kircher. Kind regards, Pieter ___ Van: "WALSH STUART" Verzonden: vrijdag 25 januari 2013 13:58 Aan: "Martyn Hodgson" Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy - was Calata de StrAmbotto On 25/01/2013 11:15, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Dear Stuart, I interpreted what you wrote earlier as saying that gitterns/guiternes and mandores were always essentially the same instrument - hence my observation on inventories to point out that at least some Old Ones recognised a significant enough difference to require seperate accounting. Apart from tuning, I presume at this time the physical difference is shape (8) - as the Morlaye etc engravings show. regards, Martyn Well I'm getting bit confused now! Pieter made some very interesting remarks in his email. One of his remarks was that the (medieval, lute-like) gittern was still around in the 16th century and he cites some sources from the 16th century. Now I thought the prevailing view was that the gittern was long out of fashion by the middle of the 16th century. I mean here the medieval gittern, small, lute-like,popular for centuries all over Europe, and with a variety of names including quintern and chitarra. For example, Baines' Oxford Companion says that the gittern (and citole) were mainly popular 1250-1350. If that work of reference is a bit dated, Schlegel and Ludtke's book has the gittern in the 'instruments before 1500' category. The illustration in Virdung of a quintern in 1511, was, I thought, the last gasp. I've never come across modern musicians playing gitterns in16th century music but maybe they are. So Pieter's reference to the ancient gittern well into the 16rth century seems very new to me. And how strange that the figure-of-eight shaped guitar, guiterne, chitarra, gittern etc should appear in the middle of the 16th century - the four-course guitar of Le Roy etc)? So the old lute-shaped gitterns and the new figure-of-eight shaped gitterns co-existed for a time. Also strange is the appearance in the 1580s of the mandore which, on the face of it, seems to be the same thing as the gittern - small, lute-like. Now Pieter has given his reasons why he thinks the new mandore (again with other names too) is quite different from the old (lute-like) gittern but I don't yet quite understand them. So Martyn, your references to inventories of the 1580s mentioning and differentiating between guiternes and mandores where you understand guiternes to be figure-of-eight, (four-course Renaissance guitars) is not what I was harping on about! It's Pieter's contention that the mandore is fundamentally different from the medieval, lute-shaped gittern not the figure-of-eight shaped 'Renaissance guitar'. Of course, little, lute-like gitterns are very different from little figure-of-eight shaped instruments. But little lute-like gitterns don't seem fundamentally different from little lute-like mandores. I just noticed a reference in a Gitarre und Zister symposium in 2001. In Christian Rault's paper, he says: "The gittern (later known as the mandora during the Renaissance...etc". Perhaps he should have been more careful about spelling of mandora. But I thought that this was the prevailing view, so interestingly challenged by Pieter. Stuart --- On Fri, 25/1/13, WALSH STUART [1] wrote: From: WALSH STUART [2]
[LUTE] Re: Bransle Simple for guitarne et guiterne (Gervaise 1557)
Hello Monica, Stuart relates to some of the written sources in 16th century France - inventories of builders in Paris made when they died. Some of these inventories try to distinguish between "guiterne" and "guitarne" (spelling variations on these exist of course, losing the "n" for example). You can't just prove that the "guiterne" was the lute-like and "guitarne" the figure-8 shaped instrument or the other way around, but some of the source do add a but of context like "viel lucz a guitarne" (old lute-like gitterns). Perhaps confusingly - and I believe Stuart seems to be fallen a victim - I found more cases where "lute" context seemed to be related the spelling with an "a". It is confusing stuff, and I doubt if we will be able to get any ground-braking theories from the little facts at hand, but some definite things that can be concluded: - inventories from builders in Paris seemed to contains instruments that required a differentiation between a guiterne and guitarne - some of these instruments get some context that point towards the lute, most logically then pointing to the old lute-like gittern (the word "old" even showes up sometimes) I hope this clears things up a bit? Kind regards, Pieter ___ Van: "Monica Hall" Verzonden: vrijdag 25 januari 2013 21:36 Aan: "WALSH STUART" Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: Bransle Simple for guitarne et guiterne (Gervaise 1557) I am getting more confused as the day wears on Monica - Original Message - From: "WALSH STUART" To: "Monica Hall" Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 7:50 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bransle Simple for guitarne et guiterne (Gervaise 1557) > On 25/01/2013 17:23, Monica Hall wrote: >> Why is it called a guitarne? >> >> Monica >> > > > Monica > > I was being slightly mischievous. But Pieter wrote in a recent email: > > "If the source is French and from after 1540, be careful as it might be > either for "guitar" or "gittern". Interestingly enough, some inventories > of instrument makers like the Denis builders seem to have tried to make a > distinction between a "guitarne" and a "guiterne" (where the guiterne has > "fondz de lut" or a lute back). I therefore would place it that a source > putting an "a" guitar(n)e in France in the second half of the > 16th century is not referring to the lute-like instrument." > > So if Pieter knows what he is talking about, there are grounds for > 'guitarne' = figure-of-eight guitar, at least in mid 16th C France. He > continues: > > > > "This however doesn't discount that there are numerous cases where the > figure-8 shaped instrument was called guiterne in French sources of the > same period. It can however be a good guideline if come across that > particular spelling with an "a". However in some cases even this > rule can't be followed, the inventory of yet another instrument builder, > Pierre Aubry in 1596, has "viels lucs de guitarne" - suggesting the > old lute-like gittern." > > Do you know who Pieter is? Nice job if he spends all day researching > gitterns! > > Interesting response just now form Gary Boye on the chitarra italiana. I > hope some day you can translate the second part of Meucci. Interesting > that Gary Boye notes that in Italy the chitarra italiana was a four-course > instrument. > > So we have the 'guiterne' (the lute-like medieval gittern) surviving until > the end of the 16th century (if Pieter is right), the mandore from the > 1580s (which Pieter thinks is not simply the old gittern) and the chitarra > italiana (which is perhaps the old gittern, the chitarino of Pietrobono in > teh 15th century. And buzzing away in the background, the bandurria! > > > Stuart > > > >>> This 'guitarne' is a actually a five-course guitar- or should that be >>> vihuela? We haven't gone over that for a while. Both instruments made by >>> Bill Samson. >>> >>> >>> Stuart >>> >>> >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> >> > --
