[LUTE] Vieux Gaultiers' Chaconne ou cascade de Mr de Launay
Hi Do anybody know a arr for R-lute (10 c) of this great piece Best Regards Mikael Mikael Forsberg __ Har du faatt detta e-postmeddelande av misstag, var vaenlig meddela oss och radera det och eventuellt bifogade bilagor. Detta e-postmeddelande aer virusskannat. __ If you have received this e-mail in error, please inform us and remove it and all its attachments. This e-mail is virus scanned. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension
Wow- forgot how gorgeous those pieces are. But yes, I too changed to plain Pistoys on my 7th & 8th courses of my Larson 8 course tenor lute. Still use the gimps for 12 & 13 diapasons on my small archlute. Two single strings in arm's reach I can cope with. Dan On 12/19/2013 10:40 PM, Edward Martin wrote: I am in a unique situation, to where Dan Larson is one of my closest friends, and he lives just one block from me. So, I get to partake in research and development. I used his gimped strings for years, they are good. However, for the past 2 years, I have gone on my 11-course lute to pure gut throughout, no metal. I really like it, and even to the 11th course, they are very clear. The tuning is more stable than if they had metal in them (i.e. gimped), and they sound very clear. You can hear them and see close up views of the strings in 2 videos.: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKrIYrhMljc&feature=youtu.be and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ue9fQZeSPA You can see close up views of the strings. ed At 11:17 PM 12/19/2013, David Smith wrote: Thanks all. The conclusion that I here is that: 1. Gimped Gut Strings are more sensitive at tension when tuning (i.e. change in pitch with change in tension is high). 2. Lowest pitch strings are the hardest. 3. 13 course does better than 11 course due to the rider or the swan neck peghead (some offline conversation) 4. The tension that my string is at is a little on the low side but that it not the cause of the difference. If it is well balanced with the rest of the strings then don't change it. 5. This is not uncommon - live with it or try a different type of string. Thanks. I really appreciate the feedback. If Alexander gets a chance to post his formulas that would be great. I think I will continue to live with it since I have for many months so far. Regards David -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Leonard Williams Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2013 6:47 PM To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension Miles brings up a good point. If the string is gimped, the metal ³core² will cause the string to behave more like a metal string: less elastic than the gut covering it. I use gimped fundamentals for 7 and 8 on my 8-course, and I know just what you¹re going through. The lower (heavier, with silver core) string is the fussiest. I find that I just have to do a little back and forth with the tuning until it sounds good. Leonard Williams On 12/18/13, 11:42 PM, "Miles Dempster" wrote: >Hi David, > >Have you considered the elasticity of the string material? >Two extremes would be steel (very little peg turning) and nylgut (lots >of peg turning) to bring up to pitch and tune. >Would it be due to the fact that it is a gimped string which makes it >less elastic in comparison to gut? > > > >Miles > > >On Dec 18, 2013, at 9:20 PM, David Smith wrote: > >> Hi Ralf, >> I think I did not correctly express the issue I am trying to understand. >> >> The stats on the string are: Pitch at 392, length 0.685, Tension is >>28newtons,Diameter is 2.03mm silver gimped Larson string. The diameter >>is his "equivalent" ungimped diameter as opposed to the actual, >>physical diameter. >> >> I am very happy with this string and how it plays. My question is >>with regard to tuning it. When I am pitch I find that very little >>change in turning the peg causes a large change in the pitch. I have >>a number of instruments (some gut and some nylgut). I do not notice >>this on my Theorbo or 10 course lute (nor any of the others but they >>are all fewer courses). Is this normal? Is there anything that I can >>due to affect the sensitivity to pitch of the string when tuning it? >>Is it an indication of a string that is too high or too low a >>tension? My mathematical analysis of the formula for pitch implies >>that increasing the tension will result in a little less variation in >>pitch due to the change in tension when tuning but it seems really >>small. >> >> I appreciate all of the other comments and suggestions. Since this is >>completely independent of the strings response when I fret it I am not >>sure I understand the comments on twisting the string to reduce it >>stiffness. I do not find the string particularly stiff. That is one >>of the nice advantages of Dan Larson's silver gimped strings - they >>are actually smaller diameter than stated due to the extra mass of >>the silver. >> >> Anyway, any additional thoughts welcome. >> >> Regards >> David >> >> -Original Message- >> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On >>Behalf Of R. Mattes >> Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 5:57 AM >> To: alexander; David Smith >> Cc: Lute List >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension >> >> On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 05:11:40 -0500, alexander wrote >>> >>> there is a possibility of improving your situati
[LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension
I am in a unique situation, to where Dan Larson is one of my closest friends, and he lives just one block from me. So, I get to partake in research and development. I used his gimped strings for years, they are good. However, for the past 2 years, I have gone on my 11-course lute to pure gut throughout, no metal. I really like it, and even to the 11th course, they are very clear. The tuning is more stable than if they had metal in them (i.e. gimped), and they sound very clear. You can hear them and see close up views of the strings in 2 videos.: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKrIYrhMljc&feature=youtu.be and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ue9fQZeSPA You can see close up views of the strings. ed At 11:17 PM 12/19/2013, David Smith wrote: Thanks all. The conclusion that I here is that: 1. Gimped Gut Strings are more sensitive at tension when tuning (i.e. change in pitch with change in tension is high). 2. Lowest pitch strings are the hardest. 3. 13 course does better than 11 course due to the rider or the swan neck peghead (some offline conversation) 4. The tension that my string is at is a little on the low side but that it not the cause of the difference. If it is well balanced with the rest of the strings then don't change it. 5. This is not uncommon - live with it or try a different type of string. Thanks. I really appreciate the feedback. If Alexander gets a chance to post his formulas that would be great. I think I will continue to live with it since I have for many months so far. Regards David -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Leonard Williams Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2013 6:47 PM To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension Miles brings up a good point. If the string is gimped, the metal ³core² will cause the string to behave more like a metal string: less elastic than the gut covering it. I use gimped fundamentals for 7 and 8 on my 8-course, and I know just what you¹re going through. The lower (heavier, with silver core) string is the fussiest. I find that I just have to do a little back and forth with the tuning until it sounds good. Leonard Williams On 12/18/13, 11:42 PM, "Miles Dempster" wrote: >Hi David, > >Have you considered the elasticity of the string material? >Two extremes would be steel (very little peg turning) and nylgut (lots >of peg turning) to bring up to pitch and tune. >Would it be due to the fact that it is a gimped string which makes it >less elastic in comparison to gut? > > > >Miles > > >On Dec 18, 2013, at 9:20 PM, David Smith wrote: > >> Hi Ralf, >> I think I did not correctly express the issue I am trying to understand. >> >> The stats on the string are: Pitch at 392, length 0.685, Tension is >>28newtons,Diameter is 2.03mm silver gimped Larson string. The diameter >>is his "equivalent" ungimped diameter as opposed to the actual, >>physical diameter. >> >> I am very happy with this string and how it plays. My question is >>with regard to tuning it. When I am pitch I find that very little >>change in turning the peg causes a large change in the pitch. I have >>a number of instruments (some gut and some nylgut). I do not notice >>this on my Theorbo or 10 course lute (nor any of the others but they >>are all fewer courses). Is this normal? Is there anything that I can >>due to affect the sensitivity to pitch of the string when tuning it? >>Is it an indication of a string that is too high or too low a >>tension? My mathematical analysis of the formula for pitch implies >>that increasing the tension will result in a little less variation in >>pitch due to the change in tension when tuning but it seems really >>small. >> >> I appreciate all of the other comments and suggestions. Since this is >>completely independent of the strings response when I fret it I am not >>sure I understand the comments on twisting the string to reduce it >>stiffness. I do not find the string particularly stiff. That is one >>of the nice advantages of Dan Larson's silver gimped strings - they >>are actually smaller diameter than stated due to the extra mass of >>the silver. >> >> Anyway, any additional thoughts welcome. >> >> Regards >> David >> >> -Original Message- >> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On >>Behalf Of R. Mattes >> Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 5:57 AM >> To: alexander; David Smith >> Cc: Lute List >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension >> >> On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 05:11:40 -0500, alexander wrote >>> >>> there is a possibility of improving your situation. First you have >>> to make sure you know which way the string is twisted (clockwise or >>> counter). A strong magnifying glass might be of help. Next you need >>> to get one end of the string free, either the bridge end or the peg end. >>> Firmly holding the string, give it one or two turns in the direction >>> of the twist. Tw
[LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension
Thanks all. The conclusion that I here is that: 1. Gimped Gut Strings are more sensitive at tension when tuning (i.e. change in pitch with change in tension is high). 2. Lowest pitch strings are the hardest. 3. 13 course does better than 11 course due to the rider or the swan neck peghead (some offline conversation) 4. The tension that my string is at is a little on the low side but that it not the cause of the difference. If it is well balanced with the rest of the strings then don't change it. 5. This is not uncommon - live with it or try a different type of string. Thanks. I really appreciate the feedback. If Alexander gets a chance to post his formulas that would be great. I think I will continue to live with it since I have for many months so far. Regards David -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Leonard Williams Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2013 6:47 PM To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension Miles brings up a good point. If the string is gimped, the metal ³core² will cause the string to behave more like a metal string: less elastic than the gut covering it. I use gimped fundamentals for 7 and 8 on my 8-course, and I know just what you¹re going through. The lower (heavier, with silver core) string is the fussiest. I find that I just have to do a little back and forth with the tuning until it sounds good. Leonard Williams On 12/18/13, 11:42 PM, "Miles Dempster" wrote: >Hi David, > >Have you considered the elasticity of the string material? >Two extremes would be steel (very little peg turning) and nylgut (lots >of peg turning) to bring up to pitch and tune. >Would it be due to the fact that it is a gimped string which makes it >less elastic in comparison to gut? > > > >Miles > > >On Dec 18, 2013, at 9:20 PM, David Smith wrote: > >> Hi Ralf, >> I think I did not correctly express the issue I am trying to understand. >> >> The stats on the string are: Pitch at 392, length 0.685, Tension is >>28newtons,Diameter is 2.03mm silver gimped Larson string. The diameter >>is his "equivalent" ungimped diameter as opposed to the actual, >>physical diameter. >> >> I am very happy with this string and how it plays. My question is >>with regard to tuning it. When I am pitch I find that very little >>change in turning the peg causes a large change in the pitch. I have >>a number of instruments (some gut and some nylgut). I do not notice >>this on my Theorbo or 10 course lute (nor any of the others but they >>are all fewer courses). Is this normal? Is there anything that I can >>due to affect the sensitivity to pitch of the string when tuning it? >>Is it an indication of a string that is too high or too low a >>tension? My mathematical analysis of the formula for pitch implies >>that increasing the tension will result in a little less variation in >>pitch due to the change in tension when tuning but it seems really >>small. >> >> I appreciate all of the other comments and suggestions. Since this is >>completely independent of the strings response when I fret it I am not >>sure I understand the comments on twisting the string to reduce it >>stiffness. I do not find the string particularly stiff. That is one >>of the nice advantages of Dan Larson's silver gimped strings - they >>are actually smaller diameter than stated due to the extra mass of >>the silver. >> >> Anyway, any additional thoughts welcome. >> >> Regards >> David >> >> -Original Message- >> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On >>Behalf Of R. Mattes >> Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 5:57 AM >> To: alexander; David Smith >> Cc: Lute List >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension >> >> On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 05:11:40 -0500, alexander wrote >>> >>> there is a possibility of improving your situation. First you have >>> to make sure you know which way the string is twisted (clockwise or >>> counter). A strong magnifying glass might be of help. Next you need >>> to get one end of the string free, either the bridge end or the peg end. >>> Firmly holding the string, give it one or two turns in the direction >>> of the twist. Twist as much as possible without a distortion to the >>> shape of the string. Do not let the string to bulk on itself. Fix >>> the end of the string back where it belongs and raise the pitch. Of >>> course make sure the string does not untwist, and keep it somewhat >>> taut while holding. >>> >>> This simple technique might be enough to increase the string's >>> elasticity and make it more agreeable to finger pressure. There is >>> no difficulty to this, just some amount of common sense, and never >>> turn against the string's twist, as if the string is not glued well >>> together, it could be damaged. You could practice on a piece of fret >>> gut, to get a feel to it. Some strings can take quite a bit of twist >>> and
[LUTE] Re: Masterclasses
Hello Masterclasses should always be about technique or performance. Unfortunately some artists dont understand that. I remember one masterclass with a well known japanese lutenist back in university in 1980, who spent more time criticizing the instrument I owned at the time, rather than actually teaching... Needless to say i was rather upset, having very little money at the time and having had the instrument built for me the year before. Bruno Montreal, Canada EnvoyA(c) de ma tablette BlackBerryA(R) PlayBooka-c- www.blackberry.com __ De: "sterling price" A: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" EnvoyA(c): 19 dA(c)cembre 2013 22:51 Objet: [LUTE] Masterclasses Some of this talk of masterclasses has reminded me of my checkered past with the format. In 1994, when I was 20, I performed in a masterclass of a certain well-known female guitarist. I made the mistake of not using her edition of the Bach I was playing. She was not amused. She was so ruthless that many letters from people in the audience were sent to her later, including one from my teacher who she insulted. The whole thing caused a rift in the local guitar society that lasted for years. I remember when I was on stage with her I almost wanted to laugh, thinking "are you being serious?". After another masterclass a few months later with Christopher Parkening, I gave up the guitar for many years and put all my efforts into the baroque lute. I had my first masterclass with Robert Barto 10 years ago, and my experience with him has been quite different. My eyes were opened and lo, I did receive the truth. I have 10 years of DVDs of those masterclasses,(which some have called 'The Bob and Sterling Show'). I often refer to those recordings. If I could get permission, I would post some highlights. --Sterling -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Masterclasses
Some of this talk of masterclasses has reminded me of my checkered past with the format. In 1994, when I was 20, I performed in a masterclass of a certain well-known female guitarist. I made the mistake of not using her edition of the Bach I was playing. She was not amused. She was so ruthless that many letters from people in the audience were sent to her later, including one from my teacher who she insulted. The whole thing caused a rift in the local guitar society that lasted for years. I remember when I was on stage with her I almost wanted to laugh, thinking "are you being serious?". After another masterclass a few months later with Christopher Parkening, I gave up the guitar for many years and put all my efforts into the baroque lute. I had my first masterclass with Robert Barto 10 years ago, and my experience with him has been quite different. My eyes were opened and lo, I did receive the truth. I have 10 years of DVDs of those masterclasses,(which some have called 'The Bob and Sterling Show'). I often refer to those recordings. If I could get permission, I would post some highlights. --Sterling -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension
Miles brings up a good point. If the string is gimped, the metal ³core² will cause the string to behave more like a metal string: less elastic than the gut covering it. I use gimped fundamentals for 7 and 8 on my 8-course, and I know just what you¹re going through. The lower (heavier, with silver core) string is the fussiest. I find that I just have to do a little back and forth with the tuning until it sounds good. Leonard Williams On 12/18/13, 11:42 PM, "Miles Dempster" wrote: >Hi David, > >Have you considered the elasticity of the string material? >Two extremes would be steel (very little peg turning) and nylgut (lots of >peg turning) to bring up to pitch and tune. >Would it be due to the fact that it is a gimped string which makes it >less elastic in comparison to gut? > > > >Miles > > >On Dec 18, 2013, at 9:20 PM, David Smith wrote: > >> Hi Ralf, >> I think I did not correctly express the issue I am trying to understand. >> >> The stats on the string are: Pitch at 392, length 0.685, Tension is >> 28newtons,Diameter is 2.03mm silver gimped Larson string. The diameter >>is >> his "equivalent" ungimped diameter as opposed to the actual, physical >> diameter. >> >> I am very happy with this string and how it plays. My question is with >> regard to tuning it. When I am pitch I find that very little change in >> turning the peg causes a large change in the pitch. I have a number of >> instruments (some gut and some nylgut). I do not notice this on my >>Theorbo >> or 10 course lute (nor any of the others but they are all fewer >>courses). Is >> this normal? Is there anything that I can due to affect the sensitivity >>to >> pitch of the string when tuning it? Is it an indication of a string >>that is >> too high or too low a tension? My mathematical analysis of the formula >>for >> pitch implies that increasing the tension will result in a little less >> variation in pitch due to the change in tension when tuning but it seems >> really small. >> >> I appreciate all of the other comments and suggestions. Since this is >> completely independent of the strings response when I fret it I am not >>sure >> I understand the comments on twisting the string to reduce it >>stiffness. I >> do not find the string particularly stiff. That is one of the nice >> advantages of Dan Larson's silver gimped strings - they are actually >>smaller >> diameter than stated due to the extra mass of the silver. >> >> Anyway, any additional thoughts welcome. >> >> Regards >> David >> >> -Original Message- >> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On >>Behalf >> Of R. Mattes >> Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2013 5:57 AM >> To: alexander; David Smith >> Cc: Lute List >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension >> >> On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 05:11:40 -0500, alexander wrote >>> >>> there is a possibility of improving your situation. First you have to >>> make sure you know which way the string is twisted (clockwise or >>> counter). A strong magnifying glass might be of help. Next you need to >>> get one end of the string free, either the bridge end or the peg end. >>> Firmly holding the string, give it one or two turns in the direction >>> of the twist. Twist as much as possible without a distortion to the >>> shape of the string. Do not let the string to bulk on itself. Fix the >>> end of the string back where it belongs and raise the pitch. Of course >>> make sure the string does not untwist, and keep it somewhat taut while >>> holding. >>> >>> This simple technique might be enough to increase the string's >>> elasticity and make it more agreeable to finger pressure. There is no >>> difficulty to this, just some amount of common sense, and never turn >>> against the string's twist, as if the string is not glued well >>> together, it could be damaged. You could practice on a piece of fret >>> gut, to get a feel to it. Some strings can take quite a bit of twist >>> and actually be improved by this. >> >> Hello Alexander, >> >> sorry, but I want to ask: did you ever try this out yourself and did it >> really work? Even if you really manage to fix the string after twisting >>so >> that it doesn't immediatly untwist twisting in such a way would cause >>the >> mass of the string to be unevenly distributed over it's length (because >>the >> string will be mostly twisted in the middle - take a rubberband, twist >>it >> and watch where the twisting happens ;-) And that will create a false >> string. >> Gut strings are twisted during assembly, while they are wet, not >>afterwards, >> when dried. >> >> @david: what exactly do you mean when you write "sensitve"? >> Does the string change pitch when you use more than minimal force to >>finger >> it? Yes, that's typical for low tension strings (as well as for metal >> strings ...) You need to spend a substantial amount of time pracising >> playing at low tension. "Dificult to get in tune" - hmm, low tension >>should >> result in easier t
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
So what are we left with? Personal judgements on what is and what is not interesting music. Or good music, or correct music, or aurally thought music. Harnoncourt wrote it some 40 years ago: HIP is not about doing music as it was done centuries ago but about making lively music for today's listeners. Treatises and other documents help to avoid mistakes which render long-gone music dull, like playing Bach without accents. Ernesto Ett 11-99 242120 4 11-28376692 Em 19.12.2013, às 11:27, Christopher Wilke escreveu: This also fits in nicely with Richard Taruskin's often stated thesis that early music performance practice today is really a modern fabrication that seeks to apply 20th (now 21st) century aesthetic preferences to past music. Indeed, the technically clean, vibrato-less, metronomic, inexpressive character of many performances of early music nowadays seems to be an artistic reflection of mechanized industrialization, assembly lines, and the repeatable, homogenized regularity of product made possible by the use of computers. It would be too much of a stretch to suggest that the approach of Segovia and contemporaries provides a model of early interpretation today, but one might be able to argue that, being older, some aspects of those aesthetic priorities were (un/subconsciously) closer to the spirit of earlier times than the modern performance dogma. "Ah ha!" says the HIP Police Person, "But the Basel crew has something those bloated philistines of Segovia's generation never deigned to consider: we base every choice upon..." (At this point the HIP Police Person raises eyes and hands to the heavens. A ray of golden light shines down and a snippet of the scholarly edition of Josquin's Missa "Di Dadi," sung by an angelic choir, is heard. Apollo on his chariot begins to descend but he suddenly gets a call on his iPhone reminding him that he is needed for a baroque opera rehearsal in Stockholm.) "...the SOURCES! Ahh..." the HIP person sighs with quasi-orgasmic relish. To which I say: Read all the 19th century treatises you can. Absorb them. Many are written so clearly, you'll have be able to form a perfect aural picture of how the music sounded. Then listen to period recordings. Suddenly no one is doing they're "supposed" to be doing, according to their own sources! The picture you formed was filtered through your own time, not theirs. How great must the gulf between our current intellectual comprehension and their actual practice be for music created in a pre-industrialized age, from which no recorded artifact survives? Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 6:46 PM, JarosAAaw Lipski wrote: WiadomoAAAe napisana przez howard posner w dniu 18 gru 2013, o godz. 23:10: > > On Dec 18, 2013, at 1:47 PM, Dan Winheld <[1]dwinh...@lmi.net> wrote: > >> Is it just me, or is there not something ironic about a serious minded 21st century LUTE-list member finding a great 20th century musical icon (think of him what one will otherwise) "outdated"? > > Not at all. Implicit in the whole early music movement is the assumption that the mainstream classical approach to early music was outdated, including icons like Karajan, Stokowski, and yes, Segovia. Their approach was an early-to-mid-twentieth-century approach that became outdated when we learned better. > Sure, but we're not talking about Segovia's early music interpretations. To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] [off-topic] chanzy strings
Does anybody know which strings/gauges can I use in a chanzy? Regards. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
OUCH! On 12/19/13 11:25 AM, "Dan Winheld" wrote: > So your heart belongs to di Dadi (Cole Porter, 1938) > > On 12/19/2013 6:22 AM, Geoff Gaherty wrote: >> On 19/12/13 8:27 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote: >>> Richard Taruskin >> Josquin's Missa "Di Dadi" >> >> Funny you should mention these two in the same email. Decades ago I >> attended an early music workshop in Miami where Taruskin was one of >> the instructors, and his task of the week was to lead us recorder >> players through a sight-reading of a different Josquin mass each >> night. He chose masses which he had never heard performed, in the >> hopes of finding an undiscovered masterpiece. Needless to say, all of >> them were fine music, but we were all blown away by the Missa di >> Dadi. This was probably the first performance of this mass since the >> 16th century, and I'm still in awe of having been one of the first >> people in centuries to experience it. >> >> Geoff >> > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension
Thank you for the explanation. If you have the formula please perform an unrestrained act and share it. I really would be interested in it. Regards David Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 19, 2013, at 4:58 AM, alexander wrote: > > > Theoretically at some higher pitch the level of elasticity against the pitch > would increase enough to give a sense that string responds slower to > increasing tension. However this would happen at some pitch making tension > way too high. > If you try to bring the pitch down, it will only make this effect worse. I > could have presented a formula here, that shows the elasticity dropping > sharply with lowering the pitch in relation to material - diameter. But i > will restrain myself. > > alexander r. > > On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 22:47:06 -0800 > David Smith wrote: > >> It might be. I have no plan to change from gut so am looking to see if >> changing the tension would have an effect. >> >> David >> >> Se To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
So your heart belongs to di Dadi (Cole Porter, 1938) On 12/19/2013 6:22 AM, Geoff Gaherty wrote: On 19/12/13 8:27 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote: Richard Taruskin Josquin's Missa "Di Dadi" Funny you should mention these two in the same email. Decades ago I attended an early music workshop in Miami where Taruskin was one of the instructors, and his task of the week was to lead us recorder players through a sight-reading of a different Josquin mass each night. He chose masses which he had never heard performed, in the hopes of finding an undiscovered masterpiece. Needless to say, all of them were fine music, but we were all blown away by the Missa di Dadi. This was probably the first performance of this mass since the 16th century, and I'm still in awe of having been one of the first people in centuries to experience it. Geoff To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
". . . quasi-orgasmic relish" is worthy of a tittering *tee-hee*. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Christopher Wilke Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2013 8:27 AM To: Jarosław Lipski; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum This also fits in nicely with Richard Taruskin's often stated thesis that early music performance practice today is really a modern fabrication that seeks to apply 20th (now 21st) century aesthetic preferences to past music. Indeed, the technically clean, vibrato-less, metronomic, inexpressive character of many performances of early music nowadays seems to be an artistic reflection of mechanized industrialization, assembly lines, and the repeatable, homogenized regularity of product made possible by the use of computers. It would be too much of a stretch to suggest that the approach of Segovia and contemporaries provides a model of early interpretation today, but one might be able to argue that, being older, some aspects of those aesthetic priorities were (un/subconsciously) closer to the spirit of earlier times than the modern performance dogma. "Ah ha!" says the HIP Police Person, "But the Basel crew has something those bloated philistines of Segovia's generation never deigned to consider: we base every choice upon..." (At this point the HIP Police Person raises eyes and hands to the heavens. A ray of golden light shines down and a snippet of the scholarly edition of Josquin's Missa "Di Dadi," sung by an angelic choir, is heard. Apollo on his chariot begins to descend but he suddenly gets a call on his iPhone reminding him that he is needed for a baroque opera rehearsal in Stockholm.) "...the SOURCES! Ahh..." the HIP person sighs with quasi-orgasmic relish. To which I say: Read all the 19th century treatises you can. Absorb them. Many are written so clearly, you'll have be able to form a perfect aural picture of how the music sounded. Then listen to period recordings. Suddenly no one is doing they're "supposed" to be doing, according to their own sources! The picture you formed was filtered through your own time, not theirs. How great must the gulf between our current intellectual comprehension and their actual practice be for music created in a pre-industrialized age, from which no recorded artifact survives? Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 6:46 PM, JarosAAaw Lipski wrote: WiadomoAAAe napisana przez howard posner w dniu 18 gru 2013, o godz. 23:10: > > On Dec 18, 2013, at 1:47 PM, Dan Winheld <[1]dwinh...@lmi.net> wrote: > >> Is it just me, or is there not something ironic about a serious minded 21st century LUTE-list member finding a great 20th century musical icon (think of him what one will otherwise) "outdated"? > > Not at all. Implicit in the whole early music movement is the assumption that the mainstream classical approach to early music was outdated, including icons like Karajan, Stokowski, and yes, Segovia. Their approach was an early-to-mid-twentieth-century approach that became outdated when we learned better. > Sure, but we're not talking about Segovia's early music interpretations. To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
Bruce Haines is a must read regarding this issue (romantic, modern and the Hip approach). 2013/12/19 Christopher Wilke <[1]chriswi...@yahoo.com> This also fits in nicely with Richard Taruskin's often stated thesis that early music performance practice today is really a modern fabrication that seeks to apply 20th (now 21st) century aesthetic preferences to past music. Indeed, the technically clean, vibrato-less, metronomic, inexpressive character of many performances of early music nowadays seems to be an artistic reflection of mechanized industrialization, assembly lines, and the repeatable, homogenized regularity of product made possible by the use of computers. It would be too much of a stretch to suggest that the approach of Segovia and contemporaries provides a model of early interpretation today, but one might be able to argue that, being older, some aspects of those aesthetic priorities were (un/subconsciously) closer to the spirit of earlier times than the modern performance dogma. "Ah ha!" says the HIP Police Person, "But the Basel crew has something those bloated philistines of Segovia's generation never deigned to consider: we base every choice upon..." (At this point the HIP Police Person raises eyes and hands to the heavens. A ray of golden light shines down and a snippet of the scholarly edition of Josquin's Missa "Di Dadi," sung by an angelic choir, is heard. Apollo on his chariot begins to descend but he suddenly gets a call on his iPhone reminding him that he is needed for a baroque opera rehearsal in Stockholm.) "...the SOURCES! Ahh..." the HIP person sighs with quasi-orgasmic relish. To which I say: Read all the 19th century treatises you can. Absorb them. Many are written so clearly, you'll have be able to form a perfect aural picture of how the music sounded. Then listen to period recordings. Suddenly no one is doing they're "supposed" to be doing, according to their own sources! The picture you formed was filtered through your own time, not theirs. How great must the gulf between our current intellectual comprehension and their actual practice be for music created in a pre-industrialized age, from which no recorded artifact survives? Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer [2]www.christopherwilke.com On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 6:46 PM, JarosAAaw Lipski <[3]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> wrote: WiadomoAAAe napisana przez howard posner w dniu 18 gru 2013, o godz. 23:10: > > On Dec 18, 2013, at 1:47 PM, Dan Winheld <[1][4]dwinh...@lmi.net> wrote: > >> Is it just me, or is there not something ironic about a serious minded 21st century LUTE-list member finding a great 20th century musical icon (think of him what one will otherwise) "outdated"? > > Not at all. Implicit in the whole early music movement is the assumption that the mainstream classical approach to early music was outdated, including icons like Karajan, Stokowski, and yes, Segovia. Their approach was an early-to-mid-twentieth-century approach that became outdated when we learned better. > Sure, but we're not talking about Segovia's early music interpretations. To get on or off this list see list information at [2][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[6]dwinh...@lmi.net 2. [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Bruno Figueiredo Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao historicamente informada no alaude e teorba. Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro. -- References 1. mailto:chriswi...@yahoo.com 2. http://www.christopherwilke.com/ 3. mailto:jaroslawlip...@wp.pl 4. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 6. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
Well-said, indeed! Thank you, Chris, for your thoughtful posts. Joseph Mayes From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Christopher Wilke [chriswi...@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2013 8:27 AM To: Jarosław Lipski; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum This also fits in nicely with Richard Taruskin's often stated thesis that early music performance practice today is really a modern fabrication that seeks to apply 20th (now 21st) century aesthetic preferences to past music. Indeed, the technically clean, vibrato-less, metronomic, inexpressive character of many performances of early music nowadays seems to be an artistic reflection of mechanized industrialization, assembly lines, and the repeatable, homogenized regularity of product made possible by the use of computers. It would be too much of a stretch to suggest that the approach of Segovia and contemporaries provides a model of early interpretation today, but one might be able to argue that, being older, some aspects of those aesthetic priorities were (un/subconsciously) closer to the spirit of earlier times than the modern performance dogma. "Ah ha!" says the HIP Police Person, "But the Basel crew has something those bloated philistines of Segovia's generation never deigned to consider: we base every choice upon..." (At this point the HIP Police Person raises eyes and hands to the heavens. A ray of golden light shines down and a snippet of the scholarly edition of Josquin's Missa "Di Dadi," sung by an angelic choir, is heard. Apollo on his chariot begins to descend but he suddenly gets a call on his iPhone reminding him that he is needed for a baroque opera rehearsal in Stockholm.) "...the SOURCES! Ahh..." the HIP person sighs with quasi-orgasmic relish. To which I say: Read all the 19th century treatises you can. Absorb them. Many are written so clearly, you'll have be able to form a perfect aural picture of how the music sounded. Then listen to period recordings. Suddenly no one is doing they're "supposed" to be doing, according to their own sources! The picture you formed was filtered through your own time, not theirs. How great must the gulf between our current intellectual comprehension and their actual practice be for music created in a pre-industrialized age, from which no recorded artifact survives? Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 6:46 PM, JarosAAaw Lipski wrote: WiadomoAAAe napisana przez howard posner w dniu 18 gru 2013, o godz. 23:10: > > On Dec 18, 2013, at 1:47 PM, Dan Winheld <[1]dwinh...@lmi.net> wrote: > >> Is it just me, or is there not something ironic about a serious minded 21st century LUTE-list member finding a great 20th century musical icon (think of him what one will otherwise) "outdated"? > > Not at all. Implicit in the whole early music movement is the assumption that the mainstream classical approach to early music was outdated, including icons like Karajan, Stokowski, and yes, Segovia. Their approach was an early-to-mid-twentieth-century approach that became outdated when we learned better. > Sure, but we're not talking about Segovia's early music interpretations. To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
On 19/12/13 8:27 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote: Richard Taruskin Josquin's Missa "Di Dadi" Funny you should mention these two in the same email. Decades ago I attended an early music workshop in Miami where Taruskin was one of the instructors, and his task of the week was to lead us recorder players through a sight-reading of a different Josquin mass each night. He chose masses which he had never heard performed, in the hopes of finding an undiscovered masterpiece. Needless to say, all of them were fine music, but we were all blown away by the Missa di Dadi. This was probably the first performance of this mass since the 16th century, and I'm still in awe of having been one of the first people in centuries to experience it. Geoff -- Geoff Gaherty Foxmead Observatory Coldwater, Ontario, Canada http://www.gaherty.ca http://starrynightskyevents.blogspot.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
Good points and very well said, Chris. Ned To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum
This also fits in nicely with Richard Taruskin's often stated thesis that early music performance practice today is really a modern fabrication that seeks to apply 20th (now 21st) century aesthetic preferences to past music. Indeed, the technically clean, vibrato-less, metronomic, inexpressive character of many performances of early music nowadays seems to be an artistic reflection of mechanized industrialization, assembly lines, and the repeatable, homogenized regularity of product made possible by the use of computers. It would be too much of a stretch to suggest that the approach of Segovia and contemporaries provides a model of early interpretation today, but one might be able to argue that, being older, some aspects of those aesthetic priorities were (un/subconsciously) closer to the spirit of earlier times than the modern performance dogma. "Ah ha!" says the HIP Police Person, "But the Basel crew has something those bloated philistines of Segovia's generation never deigned to consider: we base every choice upon..." (At this point the HIP Police Person raises eyes and hands to the heavens. A ray of golden light shines down and a snippet of the scholarly edition of Josquin's Missa "Di Dadi," sung by an angelic choir, is heard. Apollo on his chariot begins to descend but he suddenly gets a call on his iPhone reminding him that he is needed for a baroque opera rehearsal in Stockholm.) "...the SOURCES! Ahh..." the HIP person sighs with quasi-orgasmic relish. To which I say: Read all the 19th century treatises you can. Absorb them. Many are written so clearly, you'll have be able to form a perfect aural picture of how the music sounded. Then listen to period recordings. Suddenly no one is doing they're "supposed" to be doing, according to their own sources! The picture you formed was filtered through your own time, not theirs. How great must the gulf between our current intellectual comprehension and their actual practice be for music created in a pre-industrialized age, from which no recorded artifact survives? Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 6:46 PM, JarosAAaw Lipski wrote: WiadomoAAAe napisana przez howard posner w dniu 18 gru 2013, o godz. 23:10: > > On Dec 18, 2013, at 1:47 PM, Dan Winheld <[1]dwinh...@lmi.net> wrote: > >> Is it just me, or is there not something ironic about a serious minded 21st century LUTE-list member finding a great 20th century musical icon (think of him what one will otherwise) "outdated"? > > Not at all. Implicit in the whole early music movement is the assumption that the mainstream classical approach to early music was outdated, including icons like Karajan, Stokowski, and yes, Segovia. Their approach was an early-to-mid-twentieth-century approach that became outdated when we learned better. > Sure, but we're not talking about Segovia's early music interpretations. To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension
Theoretically at some higher pitch the level of elasticity against the pitch would increase enough to give a sense that string responds slower to increasing tension. However this would happen at some pitch making tension way too high. If you try to bring the pitch down, it will only make this effect worse. I could have presented a formula here, that shows the elasticity dropping sharply with lowering the pitch in relation to material - diameter. But i will restrain myself. alexander r. On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 22:47:06 -0800 David Smith wrote: > It might be. I have no plan to change from gut so am looking to see if > changing the tension would have an effect. > > David > > Se To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Question on String Tension
David, this large change of pitch with a little peg turn happens precisely with either low twist or stiff strings. The mechanics of a "gimped" string are quite complex, due to the wire embedded. Not only the gut string material has to give, when stretched, but also the mechanical connection between gut and wire is being challenged, and the whole string is attempting to twist. Since you are happy with the string, it makes as all happy. Very few here on the list would dream to see you not happy. However, if you grow unhappy with this situation, giving the string an additional twist, by increasing its' elasticity, would make the tuning a bit easier. Not that i am suggesting twisting a perfectly fine string. alexander r. On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 18:20:15 -0800 "David Smith" wrote: > Hi Ralf, > I think I did not correctly express the issue I am trying to understand. > > The stats on the string are: Pitch at 392, length 0.685, Tension is > 28newtons,Diameter is 2.03mm silver gimped Larson string. The diameter is > his "equivalent" ungimped diameter as opposed to the actual, physical > diameter. > > I am very happy with this string and how it plays. My question is with > regard to tuning it. When I am pitch I find that very little change in > turning the peg causes a large change in the pitch. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
I'm not qualified to decide what's "right" and what's not in any art. I said, "...from Segovia's point of view..." I'm going to try to refrain from responding any further so as not to raise the ire of the content police. Back to the lute when the numbness in my left hand subsides. Gary On 2013-12-18 14:20, Bruno Correia wrote: Which doesn't mean his decisions were right... 2013/12/18 gary I'm sure from Segovia's point of view in promoting his own tastes he was protecting the integrity of the guitar and the music. Gary
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
Since this thread seems to be winding down, I just wanted to thank everyone who has contributed to it for a stimulating, spirited and thought provoking conversation. Thank you. Gary To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
