[LUTE] Notational query in NB Wien MS 17.706
In a recent message I added the following postscript. Has anyone any views on the matter? PS On another possible Bartolotti matter altogether. Quite a few years ago I posted a message about one of the theorbo pieces found at the end of NB Wien 17.706 - possibly by Bartolotti since the MS contains a number of theorbo solos ascribed to Angelo Michiele (presumably our man). On 90v, bottom system are various chords mostly three notes, but one five, with little numbers (either a 3 or a 2) placed under them. The music is in French tablature with the usual way of showing the basses (ie with slashes and then numbers 4 to 7). I had thought these 2s or 3s might show ways of breaking each chord - but couldn't make much sense of it. At the time no responses came! MH Incidentally, following Wayne's recent advice I'm sending this in plain text.. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Handel Sarabande HWV437
Does anyone have a transcription for theorbo or archlute of Handel's sarabande from the dmin suite or know of any publication which contains one. Many thanks Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Handel Sarabande HWV437
I tried to do that years ago, but the range is way too wide, and the bass is way too active. RT On 2/26/2014 5:33 AM, Anthony Hart wrote: Does anyone have a transcription for theorbo or archlute of Handel's sarabande from the dmin suite or know of any publication which contains one. Many thanks Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Handel Sarabande HWV437
There is a transscript of the piece (with variations) for guitar in Frederick Noad's The Baroque Guitar (p.98-100). No idea what a professional would think and say about it, no idea whether one might perhaps modify it for theorbo or archlute - just to mention it. I can send a copy if you are interested. Best Franz Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Februar 2014 um 11:33 Uhr Von: Anthony Hart anthony.hart1...@gmail.com An: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Handel Sarabande HWV437 Does anyone have a transcription for theorbo or archlute of Handel's sarabande from the dmin suite or know of any publication which contains one. Many thanks Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Handel Sarabande HWV437
Have just found these: [1]http://www.lutesociety.org/uploads/baroque-lute-tabulature/Ha ndel%20Sarabande%20and%20Variations%20f And for guitar: [2]http://www.yatesguitar.com/pdfs/Handel-SarabandeFolia.pdf Not sure if these are any good for transcribing or even good versions/ On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Franz Mechsner [3]franz.mechs...@gmx.de wrote: There is a transscript of the piece (with variations) for guitar in Frederick Noad's The Baroque Guitar (p.98-100). No idea what a professional would think and say about it, no idea whether one might perhaps modify it for theorbo or archlute - just to mention it. I can send a copy if you are interested. Best Franz Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Februar 2014 um 11:33 Uhr Von: Anthony Hart [4]anthony.hart1...@gmail.com An: lute [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Handel Sarabande HWV437 Does anyone have a transcription for theorbo or archlute of Handel's sarabande from the dmin suite or know of any publication which contains one. Many thanks Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html References 1. [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.lutesociety.org/uploads/baroque-lute-tabulature/Handel%20Sarabande%20and%20Variations%20for%20Baroque%20Lute.pdf 2. http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.yatesguitar.com%2Fpdfs%2FHandel-SarabandeFolia.pdfh=nAQHRmIJ8 3. mailto:franz.mechs...@gmx.de 4. mailto:anthony.hart1...@gmail.com 5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Handel Sarabande HWV437
I've made a guitar transcription some time ago (thema and two variations). Willing to send a pdf. David *** David van Ooijen [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** On 26 February 2014 12:55, Anthony Hart [3]anthony.hart1...@gmail.com wrote: Have just found these: [1][4]http://www.lutesociety.org/uploads/baroque-lute-tabulature/Ha ndel%20Sarabande%20and%20Variations%20f And for guitar: [2][5]http://www.yatesguitar.com/pdfs/Handel-SarabandeFolia.pdf Not sure if these are any good for transcribing or even good versions/ On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Franz Mechsner [3][6]franz.mechs...@gmx.de wrote: There is a transscript of the piece (with variations) for guitar in Frederick Noad's The Baroque Guitar (p.98-100). No idea what a professional would think and say about it, no idea whether one might perhaps modify it for theorbo or archlute - just to mention it. I can send a copy if you are interested. Best Franz Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Februar 2014 um 11:33 Uhr Von: Anthony Hart [4][7]anthony.hart1...@gmail.com An: lute [5][8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Handel Sarabande HWV437 Does anyone have a transcription for theorbo or archlute of Handel's sarabande from the dmin suite or know of any publication which contains one. Many thanks Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1][6][9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html References 1. [7][10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [11]http://www.lutesociety.org/uploads/baroque-lute-tabulature/Hande l%20Sarabande%20and%20Variations%20for%20Baroque%20Lute.pdf 2. [12]http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.yatesguitar.com %2Fpdfs%2FHandel-SarabandeFolia.pdfh=nAQHRmIJ8 3. mailto:[13]franz.mechs...@gmx.de 4. mailto:[14]anthony.hart1...@gmail.com 5. mailto:[15]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. [16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. [17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 3. mailto:anthony.hart1...@gmail.com 4. http://www.lutesociety.org/uploads/baroque-lute-tabulature/Ha 5. http://www.yatesguitar.com/pdfs/Handel-SarabandeFolia.pdf 6. mailto:franz.mechs...@gmx.de 7. mailto:anthony.hart1...@gmail.com 8. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 11. http://www.lutesociety.org/uploads/baroque-lute-tabulature/Handel%20Sarabande%20and%20Variations%20for%20Baroque%20Lute.pdf 12. http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.yatesguitar.com%2Fpdfs%2FHandel-SarabandeFolia.pdfh=nAQHRmIJ8 13. mailto:franz.mechs...@gmx.de 14. mailto:anthony.hart1...@gmail.com 15. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Notational query in NB Wien MS 17.706
Hi Martyn, I'm afraid I don't have an answer for you, but possibly more intrigue. In the Gruesau RM 4141 for 13-course lute (which I recently downloaded via a link provided here on the list) there is a curious symbol above numerous chords made up of varying numbers of notes. Most of these look like a 2. I thought they could possibly be rhythmic symbols, but they look just like the 2 found on page numbers and elsewhere in the manuscript, standard rhythmic signs are written over chords that are probably arpeggiated. On p.5, there are is also a 3 and a 4, written over chords made up of between 4 and 6 notes. Like Martyn, I think the numbers might indicate some types of arpeggio patterns, but I can't relate them to any practice with which I'm familiar on baroque lute. Anyone have insights? Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com On Wed, 2/26/14, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Subject: [LUTE] Notational query in NB Wien MS 17.706 To: Lute Dmth lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, February 26, 2014, 3:19 AM In a recent message I added the following postscript. Has anyone any views on the matter? PS On another possible Bartolotti matter altogether. Quite a few years ago I posted a message about one of the theorbo pieces found at the end of NB Wien 17.706 - possibly by Bartolotti since the MS contains a number of theorbo solos ascribed to Angelo Michiele (presumably our man). On 90v, bottom system are various chords mostly three notes, but one five, with little numbers (either a 3 or a 2) placed under them. The music is in French tablature with the usual way of showing the basses (ie with slashes and then numbers 4 to 7). I had thought these 2s or 3s might show ways of breaking each chord - but couldn't make much sense of it. At the time no responses came! MH Incidentally, following Wayne's recent advice I'm sending this in plain text.. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Notational query in NB Wien MS 17.706
Perhaps Grzegorz Joachimiak knows something about it... He is writing on the Gruessau mss, if I remember it correctly. I put him on CC: Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Februar 2014 um 14:20 Uhr Von: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com An: Lute Dmth lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Notational query in NB Wien MS 17.706 Hi Martyn, I'm afraid I don't have an answer for you, but possibly more intrigue. In the Gruesau RM 4141 for 13-course lute (which I recently downloaded via a link provided here on the list) there is a curious symbol above numerous chords made up of varying numbers of notes. Most of these look like a 2. I thought they could possibly be rhythmic symbols, but they look just like the 2 found on page numbers and elsewhere in the manuscript, standard rhythmic signs are written over chords that are probably arpeggiated. On p.5, there are is also a 3 and a 4, written over chords made up of between 4 and 6 notes. Like Martyn, I think the numbers might indicate some types of arpeggio patterns, but I can't relate them to any practice with which I'm familiar on baroque lute. Anyone have insights? Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer [1]www.christopherwilke.com On Wed, 2/26/14, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Subject: [LUTE] Notational query in NB Wien MS 17.706 To: Lute Dmth lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, February 26, 2014, 3:19 AM In a recent message I added the following postscript. Has anyone any views on the matter? PS On another possible Bartolotti matter altogether. Quite a few years ago I posted a message about one of the theorbo pieces found at the end of NB Wien 17.706 - possibly by Bartolotti since the MS contains a number of theorbo solos ascribed to Angelo Michiele (presumably our man). On 90v, bottom system are various chords mostly three notes, but one five, with little numbers (either a 3 or a 2) placed under them. The music is in French tablature with the usual way of showing the basses (ie with slashes and then numbers 4 to 7). I had thought these 2s or 3s might show ways of breaking each chord - but couldn't make much sense of it. At the time no responses came! MH Incidentally, following Wayne's recent advice I'm sending this in plain text.. To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html References 1. http://www.christopherwilke.com/ 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Handel Sarabande HWV437
I made a transcription of the whole Handel sonata many years ago for 13 course lute. It works quite well. Sterling Sent from my iPhone On Feb 26, 2014, at 3:33 AM, Anthony Hart anthony.hart1...@gmail.com wrote: Does anyone have a transcription for theorbo or archlute of Handel's sarabande from the dmin suite or know of any publication which contains one. Many thanks Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Notational query in NB Wien MS 17.706
Hello Christopher, in the manuscript PL-WRu 60019 (former call number Mf 2002 and part of the Gruessau collection until 1945) there is an explanation of the symbols used in that tablature. Under point 20) one reads Wan ein Bass soll zwey drey oder 4 mahl arpegieret werde, wird es mit Ziffern notiert, wo aber keine Ziffer, nur einmahl. If a bass has to be arpegiated two, three or four times, it is anotated with numbers; if there is no number, then only once. There exists a study by Andreas Schlegel of the most common arpegiation patterns found in tablatures to be applied in such instances. I have a (incomplete) copy of that study if you are interested Best wishes, Ralf Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 05:20:26 -0800 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk From: chriswi...@yahoo.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Notational query in NB Wien MS 17.706 Hi Martyn, I'm afraid I don't have an answer for you, but possibly more intrigue. In the Gruesau RM 4141 for 13-course lute (which I recently downloaded via a link provided here on the list) there is a curious symbol above numerous chords made up of varying numbers of notes. Most of these look like a 2. I thought they could possibly be rhythmic symbols, but they look just like the 2 found on page numbers and elsewhere in the manuscript, standard rhythmic signs are written over chords that are probably arpeggiated. On p.5, there are is also a 3 and a 4, written over chords made up of between 4 and 6 notes. Like Martyn, I think the numbers might indicate some types of arpeggio patterns, but I can't relate them to any practice with which I'm familiar on baroque lute. Anyone have insights? Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Quite right Monica. Exactly what I corrected in a later post... mouche = artificial beauty spots Best, Jean-Marie -- This translation is a bit nearer the mark but the phrase que d'y trouver du rouge et des mouches... means that you will find on these ladies dressing tables rouge and patches - not flies. The patches were little black velvet spots which people stuck on their faces often to cover blemishes in their complexions. I have been a way for a couple of days so need time to catch up with the discussion. May indeed supply a more idiomatic translation of the passage in due course Monica. - Original Message - From: Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr To: 'Lute List' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 5:44 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise Thank you Howard but Google is not completely up to point. Here is my translation, not very far from Google's but... There was at court (of Charles II of England) a certain Italianwho was famous for the guitar. He had genius for music, and he wa the only one who could do something with the guitar; but his composition was so gracious and so tender that he would have given harmony to the most ungrateful of all instruments. The truth is that nothing was more difficult than playing after his manner. The taste of the king for his compositions had made this instrument so fashionable that everybody would play it, good or bad, and on the ladies' dressing tables you would find a guitar as certainly as rouge and flies. The Duke of York could play it fairly well, and the count of Arran as well as Francisco himself. This Francisque had just composed a Saraband which charmed or afflicted everybody : because all guitar rakers at Court had started to learn it and God knows what a universal scraping that was ! At first sight but a bit more accurate than Google I hope ;-) ! Best, Jean-Marie Ps : Thank you for the precisions you gave me Ralf ! I feel reassured ;-) -- On Feb 25, 2014, at 8:44 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: Here is the passage in question (I am confident that you can read French) : For those who can’t, I will helpfully offer a translation from Google Language Tools. I think it speaks for itself. He had some Italian in the Court, famous for the guitar. He had a genius for music, and this is the only guitar could do something;., But its composition was so gracious and so tender that it would have given the harmony most ungrateful of all instruments. the truth is that nothing was more difficult than playing his way. taste the king for his compositions had made ​​the instrument so fashionable that all played upon the world good or bad, and the toilet was beautiful also sure to see a guitar to find the red and flies. The Duke of York played upon fairly, and the Earl of Arran as Francisco itself. This Frantz had just made a sarabande or désoloit that charmed everyone: for all guitarerie Court began to learn, and God knows the Universal raclerie it was! -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Handel Sarabande HWV437
The arrangement was so popular, I decided to make a quick video. A joy to play, and much needed distraction from figuring the endless pile continuo parts. Warning: guitar content! [1]http://youtu.be/zsEUfApS1fE David -- References 1. http://youtu.be/20mDCZIbdFQ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Handel Sarabande HWV437
Silly me, wrong link. Here's Haendel: [1]http://youtu.be/20mDCZIbdFQ David *** David van Ooijen [2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [3]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** On 26 February 2014 19:18, David van Ooijen [4]davidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote: The arrangement was so popular, I decided to make a quick video. A joy to play, and much needed distraction from figuring the endless pile continuo parts. Warning: guitar content! [1][5]http://youtu.be/zsEUfApS1fE David -- References 1. [6]http://youtu.be/20mDCZIbdFQ To get on or off this list see list information at [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://youtu.be/20mDCZIbdFQ 2. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 3. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 4. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 5. http://youtu.be/zsEUfApS1fE 6. http://youtu.be/20mDCZIbdFQ 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: making sure your message looks as you intended it -
Hi folks - Due to an absolutely overwhelming lack of interest, I am not going to change how the lute list handles formatted messages. Wayne Begin forwarded message: The lute list robot converts every message to plain text because there was a time, not long ago in lute builders time, when many of the readers could not interpret the fancier HTML coding that would appear in their mailbox, and they complained loudly about it. If it seems clear that now nobody is using a mail reader that doesn't understand HTML, I could start sending the mail on as HTML, which would allow people to use various fonts and colors in their messages. This would not be trivial for me to do, and some small number of messages would still come through garbled, but it is a possibility, if everyone on the list wanted things to work that way. I know a few people would be very excited to see HTML messages passed on in their original form, but I need to feel that everyone would prefer it. So let me know, one way or the other. Wayne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: making sure your message looks as you intended it -
Plain text is fine, Wayne. Thank you ! Jean-Marie -- Hi folks - Due to an absolutely overwhelming lack of interest, I am not going to change how the lute list handles formatted messages. Wayne Begin forwarded message: The lute list robot converts every message to plain text because there was a time, not long ago in lute builders time, when many of the readers could not interpret the fancier HTML coding that would appear in their mailbox, and they complained loudly about it. If it seems clear that now nobody is using a mail reader that doesn't understand HTML, I could start sending the mail on as HTML, which would allow people to use various fonts and colors in their messages. This would not be trivial for me to do, and some small number of messages would still come through garbled, but it is a possibility, if everyone on the list wanted things to work that way. I know a few people would be very excited to see HTML messages passed on in their original form, but I need to feel that everyone would prefer it. So let me know, one way or the other. Wayne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: making sure your message looks as you intended it -
Seconded! :-) Arto On 26/02/14 20:51, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: Plain text is fine, Wayne. Thank you ! Jean-Marie -- Hi folks - Due to an absolutely overwhelming lack of interest, I am not going to change how the lute list handles formatted messages. Wayne Begin forwarded message: The lute list robot converts every message to plain text because there was a time, not long ago in lute builders time, when many of the readers could not interpret the fancier HTML coding that would appear in their mailbox, and they complained loudly about it. If it seems clear that now nobody is using a mail reader that doesn't understand HTML, I could start sending the mail on as HTML, which would allow people to use various fonts and colors in their messages. This would not be trivial for me to do, and some small number of messages would still come through garbled, but it is a possibility, if everyone on the list wanted things to work that way. I know a few people would be very excited to see HTML messages passed on in their original form, but I need to feel that everyone would prefer it. So let me know, one way or the other. Wayne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] tiorbino
dear collective wisdom, I am thinking of stringing my Colin Everette small archlute as a tiorbino. As some of you might know, Colin built many renaissance lutes on the tiorbino model, with 13 or 14 courses but was stringing it as regular Renaissance tuning with the diapasons in the same tessitura as the bass strings of a renaissance., has there ever been a concensus on how the tiorbino was strung? pitch ? I seem to remember some discussion on this, whereas the first 3 courses where at standard renaissane pitch in A, and starting from 4th course down, the pitch was up an octave. thank you -- Bruno Cognyl-Fournier www.estavel.org To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Yes - I realized that. I was reading and replying to the messages in sequence. I think these patches were sometimes in the shape of a butterfly - or possiby even a fly - which is why they were called Mouche. It seems a strange thing to do to stick bits of black taffeta or velvet or whatever on ones face - but I think they all had very bad skin (not to mention rotten teeth) due to their unhealthy life style. Monica - Original Message - From: Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: 'Lute List' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 6:01 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise Quite right Monica. Exactly what I corrected in a later post... mouche = artificial beauty spots Best, Jean-Marie -- This translation is a bit nearer the mark but the phrase que d'y trouver du rouge et des mouches... means that you will find on these ladies dressing tables rouge and patches - not flies. The patches were little black velvet spots which people stuck on their faces often to cover blemishes in their complexions. I have been a way for a couple of days so need time to catch up with the discussion. May indeed supply a more idiomatic translation of the passage in due course Monica. - Original Message - From: Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr To: 'Lute List' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 5:44 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise Thank you Howard but Google is not completely up to point. Here is my translation, not very far from Google's but... There was at court (of Charles II of England) a certain Italianwho was famous for the guitar. He had genius for music, and he wa the only one who could do something with the guitar; but his composition was so gracious and so tender that he would have given harmony to the most ungrateful of all instruments. The truth is that nothing was more difficult than playing after his manner. The taste of the king for his compositions had made this instrument so fashionable that everybody would play it, good or bad, and on the ladies' dressing tables you would find a guitar as certainly as rouge and flies. The Duke of York could play it fairly well, and the count of Arran as well as Francisco himself. This Francisque had just composed a Saraband which charmed or afflicted everybody : because all guitar rakers at Court had started to learn it and God knows what a universal scraping that was ! At first sight but a bit more accurate than Google I hope ;-) ! Best, Jean-Marie Ps : Thank you for the precisions you gave me Ralf ! I feel reassured ;-) -- On Feb 25, 2014, at 8:44 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: Here is the passage in question (I am confident that you can read French) : For those who can’t, I will helpfully offer a translation from Google Language Tools. I think it speaks for itself. He had some Italian in the Court, famous for the guitar. He had a genius for music, and this is the only guitar could do something;., But its composition was so gracious and so tender that it would have given the harmony most ungrateful of all instruments. the truth is that nothing was more difficult than playing his way. taste the king for his compositions had made ​​the instrument so fashionable that all played upon the world good or bad, and the toilet was beautiful also sure to see a guitar to find the red and flies. The Duke of York played upon fairly, and the Earl of Arran as Francisco itself. This Frantz had just made a sarabande or désoloit that charmed everyone: for all guitarerie Court began to learn, and God knows the Universal raclerie it was! -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tiorbino
On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 14:14:47 -0500, Bruno Fournier wrote dear collective wisdom, I am thinking of stringing my Colin Everette small archlute as a tiorbino. As some of you might know, Colin built many renaissance lutes on the tiorbino model, with 13 or 14 courses but was stringing it as regular Renaissance tuning with the diapasons in the same tessitura as the bass strings of a renaissance., has there ever been a concensus on how the tiorbino was strung? pitch ? Well, if by 'tiorbino' you refer to the instrument needed for Castaldi's duos then it needs to be strung an octave higher than a double-reentrant theorbo, so you need the first _two_ strings like an renaissance lute in an, and then everything up an octave. This only works with very short lutes, the third string at high b natural is almost as high as a renaissance treble lutes top. I seem to remember some discussion on this, whereas the first 3 courses where at standard renaissane pitch in A, and starting from 4th course down, the pitch was up an octave. That would create a triple reentrant instrument. Nice idea, but it won't work for Castaldi. Cheers, Ralf Mattes To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Notational query in NB Wien MS 17.706
Dear Martin, Chris and other interested in this issue, I sow that I was called to the answer but I just checked my e-mail so sorry for late reply. The solution of this question is in my opinion the Instruction How play on the lute from Cabinet der Lauten by P. F. Lesage de Richee which was three times copied to manuscripts. Two of them are placed in Grussau lute music collecion. One of this copy (Ms. PL-WRu 60109 Muz., olim Mf. 2002) is really interesting and important because there are 7 extra added directions (nos. 1, 2, 18-22) and nos. 19-20 talk about your question. It's about arpeggio that you can repeat in some combinations. It mentioned that in tablature could be written e.g. number 4. I think thaht really important here is using the third finger which was not realy popular in earlier (French) lute music. I wrote article about this issue published in Music magazine [Muzyka LVI (2011) no. 3, pp. 123-151: Uwagi do wroc^3awskiego druku Cabinet der Lauten Philippa Franza Le Sage'a de Richee i muzyczna dzia^3alnoP:ae rodziny Neidhardtow (Some Remarks to Wroclaw print of Cabinet der Lauten by Philipp Franz Le Sage de Richee and the Musical Activity of Neidhardt Family)]. All the best from Wroclaw Grzegorz Dnia 26-02-2014 o godz. 15:05 b...@symbol4.de napisa^3(a): Perhaps Grzegorz Joachimiak knows something about it... He is writing on the Gruessau mss, if I remember it correctly. I put him on CC: Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Februar 2014 um 14:20 Uhr Von: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com An: Lute Dmth lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Notational query in NB Wien MS 17.706 Hi Martyn, I'm afraid I don't have an answer for you, but possibly more intrigue. In the Gruesau RM 4141 for 13-course lute (which I recently downloaded via a link provided here on the list) there is a curious symbol above numerous chords made up of varying numbers of notes. Most of these look like a 2. I thought they could possibly be rhythmic symbols, but they look just like the 2 found on page numbers and elsewhere in the manuscript, standard rhythmic signs are written over chords that are probably arpeggiated. On p.5, there are is also a 3 and a 4, written over chords made up of between 4 and 6 notes. Like Martyn, I think the numbers might indicate some types of arpeggio patterns, but I can't relate them to any practice with which I'm familiar on baroque lute. Anyone have insights? Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer [1]www.christopherwilke.com On Wed, 2/26/14, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Subject: [LUTE] Notational query in NB Wien MS 17.706 To: Lute Dmth lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, February 26, 2014, 3:19 AM In a recent message I added the following postscript. Has anyone any views on the matter? PS On another possible Bartolotti matter altogether. Quite a few years ago I posted a message about one of the theorbo pieces found at the end of NB Wien 17.706 - possibly by Bartolotti since the MS contains a number of theorbo solos ascribed to Angelo Michiele (presumably our man). On 90v, bottom system are various chords mostly three notes, but one five, with little numbers (either a 3 or a 2) placed under them. The music is in French tablature with the usual way of showing the basses (ie with slashes and then numbers 4 to 7). I had thought these 2s or 3s might show ways of breaking each chord - but couldn't make much sense of it. At the time no responses came! MH Incidentally, following Wayne's recent advice I'm sending this in plain text.. To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Grzegorz Joachimiak Department of Musicology University of Wroclaw http://www.muzykologia.uni.wroc.pl References 1. http://www.christopherwilke.com/ 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
First, as I've said before: a guitar accompaniment is not a vaild source for continuo realizations! Guitar players where actually known for there inability to play sophisticated music (and that's why everyone and their grandmother sneered at them). This is an outrageous remark. Certainly there were some people in the 17th century who disliked the guitar and had their own agenda to pursue. There are apparently some in the 21st century too. But there is a substantial repertoire of fine music for the guitar - by Bartolotti in particular, as well as Corbetta, De Visee and many others. Several of the guitar books include literate example on how to accompany a bass line. These do sometimes indicate that compromise was necessary because the instrument has a limited compass. There are for examples in Granatas 1659 book where although the bass line indicates a 4-3 suspension over a standard perfect cadence with the bass line falling a 5th he has rearranged the parts so that the 4-3 suspension is in the lowest sounding part. There is no earthly reason why this should not be acceptable. And no reason why lutenists should not have done the same if this was inconvenient. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Whether the music they played is sophisticated enough for anyone's taste is irrelevant: as a resource, it reflects some 17th century musicians' ability to recognize that identical groups of notes resulted in functionally identical vertical sonorities independent of octave placement or voice leading. In other words, they knew a Cm7 chord was a Cmin7 chord whether it had a C, an E-flat, a G or a B-flat under it. Quite sophisticated thinking, actually. Yes indeed that is so and it is something which certainly should not be overlooked. As early as 1596 Amat explains that the 5-part guitar chords consist of a root, third and fifth and that it does not matter which order the notes are played they are still the same chords And there is no reason why when strumming an accompaniment the bass line should be reproduced at all or the chords played in any particular inversion. It is perfectly acceptable way of providing an accompaniment and only narrow-minded 21st century pedants would think otherwise. They are simply judging things according to an inappropriate set of criteria. Monica Do yo uthink that the lower vocal part is also meant as a BC part? This is a vocal duo with written out theorbo accompaniment. The theorbo bass voice is an independent voice. Whether the bass is sung or not is irrelevant because the part in bass clef functions as the continuo line. The theorbo bass is definitely not an independent voice since 99% of the time Castaldi reproduces the line of the basso exactly, an octave lower. Castaldi only deviates from the mensural bass for reasons specific to the theorbo, like when he couldn't play the expected low F#. His solution demonstrates the types of options that a 17th musician felt were valid. Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Notational query in NB Wien MS 17.706
Czesc Grzegorzu, dziekujemy za odpowiedz! If you could send me the instruction pages (I have the Tree edition, without the added directions, I think) I would translate them to English and post them here. Dobranoc Bernd Am 26.02.2014 21:03, schrieb Grzegorz Joachimiak: Dear Martin, Chris and other interested in this issue, I sow that I was called to the answer but I just checked my e-mail so sorry for late reply. The solution of this question is in my opinion the Instruction How play on the lute from Cabinet der Lauten by P. F. Lesage de Richee which was three times copied to manuscripts. Two of them are placed in Grussau lute music collecion. One of this copy (Ms. PL-WRu 60109 Muz., olim Mf. 2002) is really interesting and important because there are 7 extra added directions (nos. 1, 2, 18-22) and nos. 19-20 talk about your question. It's about arpeggio that you can repeat in some combinations. It mentioned that in tablature could be written e.g. number 4. I think thaht really important here is using the third finger which was not realy popular in earlier (French) lute music. I wrote article about this issue published in Music magazine [Muzyka LVI (2011) no. 3, pp. 123-151: Uwagi do wrocl/awskiego druku Cabinet der Lauten Philippa Franza Le Sage'a de Richee i muzyczna dzial/alnosc rodziny Neidhardtow (Some Remarks to Wroclaw print of Cabinet der Lauten by Philipp Franz Le Sage de Richee and the Musical Activity of Neidhardt Family)]. All the best from Wroclaw Grzegorz Dnia 26-02-2014 o godz. 15:05 [1]b...@symbol4.de napisal/(a): Perhaps Grzegorz Joachimiak knows something about it... He is writing on the Gruessau mss, if I remember it correctly. I put him on CC: Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Februar 2014 um 14:20 Uhr Von: Christopher Wilke [2]chriswi...@yahoo.com An: Lute Dmth [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, Martyn Hodgson [4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Notational query in NB Wien MS 17.706 Hi Martyn, I'm afraid I don't have an answer for you, but possibly more intrigue. In the Gruesau RM 4141 for 13-course lute (which I recently downloaded via a link provided here on the list) there is a curious symbol above numerous chords made up of varying numbers of notes. Most of these look like a 2. I thought they could possibly be rhythmic symbols, but they look just like the 2 found on page numbers and elsewhere in the manuscript, standard rhythmic signs are written over chords that are probably arpeggiated. On p.5, there are is also a 3 and a 4, written over chords made up of between 4 and 6 notes. Like Martyn, I think the numbers might indicate some types of arpeggio patterns, but I can't relate them to any practice with which I'm familiar on baroque lute. Anyone have insights? Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer [5]www.christopherwilke.com On Wed, 2/26/14, Martyn Hodgson [6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Subject: [LUTE] Notational query in NB Wien MS 17.706 To: Lute Dmth [7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, February 26, 2014, 3:19 AM In a recent message I added the following postscript. Has anyone any views on the matter? PS On another possible Bartolotti matter altogether. Quite a few years ago I posted a message about one of the theorbo pieces found at the end of NB Wien 17.706 - possibly by Bartolotti since the MS contains a number of theorbo solos ascribed to Angelo Michiele (presumably our man). On 90v, bottom system are various chords mostly three notes, but one five, with little numbers (either a 3 or a 2) placed under them. The music is in French tablature with the usual way of showing the basses (ie with slashes and then numbers 4 to 7). I had thought these 2s or 3s might show ways of breaking each chord - but couldn't make much sense of it. At the time no responses came! MH Incidentally, following Wayne's recent advice I'm sending this in plain text.. To get on or off this list see list information at [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Grzegorz Joachimiak Department of Musicology University of Wroclaw [9]http://www.muzykologia.uni.wroc.pl -- References 1. mailto:b...@symbol4.de 2. mailto:chriswi...@yahoo.com 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 5. http://www.christopherwilke.com/ 6. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 7. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 9. http://www.muzykologia.uni.wroc.pl/
[LUTE] Re: Notational query in NB Wien MS 17.706
Hi Bernd, I forgot who used to the bh nick, now you reminded me:) Following your issue about the pages with the instruction from Wroclaw Ms. I may only send you my transcription from the article. This tablature is not already published in internet and I don't know when it will be happened. I know that some time ago some parts of this tablature were put in internet on private server and University of Wroclaw Library intervened in this issue - about the copyrights. Many things is now scanning and published in Wroclaw but they put everythings only on them formal servers and web-pages. I go there almost everyday and I would like to continue it... Dobranoc :) Grzegorz Dnia 26-02-2014 o godz. 21:16 Bernd Haegemann napisal/(a): Czesc Grzegorzu, dziekujemy za odpowiedz! If you could send me the instruction pages (I have the Tree edition, without the added directions, I think) I would translate them to English and post them here. Dobranoc Bernd Am 26.02.2014 21:03, schrieb Grzegorz Joachimiak: Dear Martin, Chris and other interested in this issue, I sow that I was called to the answer but I just checked my e-mail so sorry for late reply. The solution of this question is in my opinion the Instruction How play on the lute from Cabinet der Lauten by P. F. Lesage de Richee which was three times copied to manuscripts. Two of them are placed in Grussau lute music collecion. One of this copy (Ms. PL-WRu 60109 Muz., olim Mf. 2002) is really interesting and important because there are 7 extra added directions (nos. 1, 2, 18-22) and nos. 19-20 talk about your question. It's about arpeggio that you can repeat in some combinations. It mentioned that in tablature could be written e.g. number 4. I think thaht really important here is using the third finger which was not realy popular in earlier (French) lute music. I wrote article about this issue published in Music magazine [Muzyka LVI (2011) no. 3, pp. 123-151: Uwagi do wrocl/awskiego druku Cabinet der Lauten Philippa Franza Le Sage'a de Richee i muzyczna dzial/alnosc rodziny Neidhardtow (Some Remarks to Wroclaw print of Cabinet der Lauten by Philipp Franz Le Sage de Richee and the Musical Activity of Neidhardt Family)]. All the best from Wroclaw Grzegorz Dnia 26-02-2014 o godz. 15:05 [1]b...@symbol4.de napisal/(a): Perhaps Grzegorz Joachimiak knows something about it... He is writing on the Gruessau mss, if I remember it correctly. I put him on CC: Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Februar 2014 um 14:20 Uhr Von: Christopher Wilke [2]chriswi...@yahoo.com An: Lute Dmth [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, Martyn Hodgson [4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Notational query in NB Wien MS 17.706 Hi Martyn, I'm afraid I don't have an answer for you, but possibly more intrigue. In the Gruesau RM 4141 for 13-course lute (which I recently downloaded via a link provided here on the list) there is a curious symbol above numerous chords made up of varying numbers of notes. Most of these look like a 2. I thought they could possibly be rhythmic symbols, but they look just like the 2 found on page numbers and elsewhere in the manuscript, standard rhythmic signs are written over chords that are probably arpeggiated. On p.5, there are is also a 3 and a 4, written over chords made up of between 4 and 6 notes. Like Martyn, I think the numbers might indicate some types of arpeggio patterns, but I can't relate them to any practice with which I'm familiar on baroque lute. Anyone have insights? Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer [5]www.christopherwilke.com On Wed, 2/26/14, Martyn Hodgson [6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Subject: [LUTE] Notational query in NB Wien MS 17.706 To: Lute Dmth [7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, February 26, 2014, 3:19 AM In a recent message I added the following postscript. Has anyone any views on the matter? PS On another possible Bartolotti matter altogether. Quite a few years ago I posted a message about one of the theorbo pieces found at the end of NB Wien 17.706 - possibly by Bartolotti since the MS contains a number of theorbo solos ascribed to Angelo Michiele (presumably our man). On 90v, bottom system are various chords mostly three notes, but one five, with little numbers (either a 3 or a 2) placed under them. The music is in French tablature with the usual way of showing the basses (ie with slashes and then numbers 4 to 7). I had thought these 2s or 3s might show ways of breaking each chord - but couldn't make much sense of it. At the time no responses came! MH Incidentally, following Wayne's recent advice I'm sending this in
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 20:10:03 -, Monica Hall wrote Monica - are you still reading up? It's really hard to answer without knowing which of my posts you have read so far. First, as I've said before: a guitar accompaniment is not a vaild source for continuo realizations! Guitar players where actually known for there inability to play sophisticated music (and that's why everyone and their grandmother sneered at them). This is an outrageous remark. Certainly there were some people in the 17th century who disliked the guitar and had their own agenda to pursue. There are apparently some in the 21st century too. Please, no conspiracy theories. Even the very text Jean-Marie posted and you had so much fun translating hints at the guitar's problems (as do many other 17th century sources). But there is a substantial repertoire of fine music for the guitar - by Bartolotti in particular, as well as Corbetta, De Visee and many others. As I have said before - I'm not critisising baroque guitar music. There's indeed some very fine ideomatic music written for that instrument. Several of the guitar books include literate example on how to accompany a bass line. These do sometimes indicate that compromise was necessary because the instrument has a limited compass. Yes, and the more refined these treaties get, the more the guitar gets treated like a mini-lute. There are for examples in Granatas 1659 book where although the bass line indicates a 4-3 suspension over a standard perfect cadence with the bass line falling a 5th he has rearranged the parts so that the 4-3 suspension is in the lowest sounding part. There is no earthly reason why this should not be acceptable. Sorry, but that doesn't make any sense. You can't have a 4-3 suspension in the lowest voice. You can have a forth between the lowest two voices, but than the higher on would need to resolve downwards to a third. What you describe sounds like a 4-3 voice played an octave to low (or rather, the bass voice being displaced an octave too high), but that would result in a 5th resolving to a 6th [1] ... I'm absolutely convinced that this would make any 17th century musician cringe. This is something that just does never happen outside the guitar world. It's not as if we had no information about how musicians (including amateurs) learned and perceived music. And no reason why lutenists should not have done the same if this was inconvenient. For me the issue pretty much is: should I (as a lute player) take as a model an instrument which is severly limited (as a _basso_ continuo instrument) as already noticed by contemporary writers or should I just follow contemporary BC instructions (literally hundreds of them!). When switching from the organ or harpsichord to a lute or theorbo, why should I all of a sudden ignore what I've learned about proper voice leading? With all the stylistic differences between the different continuo styles the common agreement seems to be that continuo should follow the rules of music (BC quasi beeing a contapunto al mente) [2] There really seems to be a great divide between the so-called guitar world and the rest of the baroque crowd. To the later it seems pretty clear that BC was first and foremost a shorthand notation for colla-parte playing. It's rather unfortunate that modern time picked basso continuo and not Fundamentbass or sopra la parte or partimento (the last literally meaning little score or short-hand score). Cheers, Ralf Mattes [1] unless someone else provides a lower bass voice. [2] im very reluctant to use the word rules here. This sounds like something imposed from the outside. Maybe grammar would be the more fitting term. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Notational query in NB Wien MS 17.706
Czesc Grzegorzu, dziekujemy za odpowiedz! If you could send me the instruction pages (I have the Tree edition, without the added directions, I think) I would translate them to English and post them here. Dobranoc Bernd Am 26.02.2014 21:03, schrieb Grzegorz Joachimiak: Dear Martin, Chris and other interested in this issue, I sow that I was called to the answer but I just checked my e-mail so sorry for late reply. The solution of this question is in my opinion the Instruction How play on the lute from Cabinet der Lauten by P. F. Lesage de Richee which was three times copied to manuscripts. Two of them are placed in Grussau lute music collecion. One of this copy (Ms. PL-WRu 60109 Muz., olim Mf. 2002) is really interesting and important because there are 7 extra added directions (nos. 1, 2, 18-22) and nos. 19-20 talk about your question. It's about arpeggio that you can repeat in some combinations. It mentioned that in tablature could be written e.g. number 4. I think thaht really important here is using the third finger which was not realy popular in earlier (French) lute music. Thanks for the information. But looking at Wien, Nationalbibliothek 17.706 - the manuscript Martin asked about: reading the numbers as arpeggio repeat counts sound rather unconvincing. The first number, a 3,is below a two-voiced chord. Cheers, RalfD To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Handel Sarabande HWV437
Thanks, David. Artfully delivered. Think of him whatever you will, but I'm surprised nobody has mentioned that Segovia popularized this piece in solo guitar transcription. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of David van Ooijen Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 1:27 PM To: lutelist Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Handel Sarabande HWV437 Silly me, wrong link. Here's Haendel: [1]http://youtu.be/20mDCZIbdFQ David *** David van Ooijen [2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [3]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** On 26 February 2014 19:18, David van Ooijen [4]davidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote: The arrangement was so popular, I decided to make a quick video. A joy to play, and much needed distraction from figuring the endless pile continuo parts. Warning: guitar content! [1][5]http://youtu.be/zsEUfApS1fE David -- References 1. [6]http://youtu.be/20mDCZIbdFQ To get on or off this list see list information at [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://youtu.be/20mDCZIbdFQ 2. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 3. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 4. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 5. http://youtu.be/zsEUfApS1fE 6. http://youtu.be/20mDCZIbdFQ 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Handel Sarabande HWV437
On 26/02/2014 21:32, Braig, Eugene wrote: Thanks, David. Artfully delivered. Think of him whatever you will, but I'm surprised nobody has mentioned that Segovia popularized this piece in solo guitar transcription. Best, Eugene Very nice David. I first came across this piece (in plain version) in one of Azpiazu's editions (my introduction to early music). Stuart -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of David van Ooijen Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 1:27 PM To: lutelist Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Handel Sarabande HWV437 Silly me, wrong link. Here's Haendel: [1]http://youtu.be/20mDCZIbdFQ David *** David van Ooijen [2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [3]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** On 26 February 2014 19:18, David van Ooijen [4]davidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote: The arrangement was so popular, I decided to make a quick video. A joy to play, and much needed distraction from figuring the endless pile continuo parts. Warning: guitar content! [1][5]http://youtu.be/zsEUfApS1fE David -- References 1. [6]http://youtu.be/20mDCZIbdFQ To get on or off this list see list information at [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://youtu.be/20mDCZIbdFQ 2. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 3. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 4. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 5. http://youtu.be/zsEUfApS1fE 6. http://youtu.be/20mDCZIbdFQ 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
I have read all the messages in order but there are rather a lot of them and no reason why I should reply to all of them in detail. To repeat again what you actually said... First, as I've said before: a guitar accompaniment is not a vaild source for continuo realizations! Guitar players where actually known for there inability to play sophisticated music (and that's why everyone and their grandmother sneered at them). There were a lot of amateur guitarists but many of them were perfectly capable of playing sophisticated music. In the passage which Jean-Marie has quoted Gramont says The King's taste for Corbetta's compositions had made this instrument so fashionable that everyone played it, well or ill. The Duke of York could play it fairly well, and the count of Arran as well as Francisco himself. Clearly many of these people could play sophisticated music as well as a professional player.. The memoires are a witty and entertaining account of life at the Restoration Court but you don't have to take everything in them at face value. Some people may have sneered at the guitar but this is very often just a matter of cultural snobbism which was alive and well in the 17th century as it is today. There is no reason why a guitar accompaniment should not be a vaild source of information about realizing a continuo. Many guitarists were quite able to do this within the limitations which the instrument imposes and they may have had a better grasp of the way chords can be used than some lutenists. Campion actually says that he reccommends his pupils to take a few lessons on the guitar before starting with the lute. That will have to do for tonight. Monica - Original Message - From: R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 9:18 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 20:10:03 -, Monica Hall wrote Monica - are you still reading up? It's really hard to answer without knowing which of my posts you have read so far. First, as I've said before: a guitar accompaniment is not a vaild source for continuo realizations! Guitar players where actually known for there inability to play sophisticated music (and that's why everyone and their grandmother sneered at them). This is an outrageous remark. Certainly there were some people in the 17th century who disliked the guitar and had their own agenda to pursue. There are apparently some in the 21st century too. Please, no conspiracy theories. Even the very text Jean-Marie posted and you had so much fun translating hints at the guitar's problems (as do many other 17th century sources). But there is a substantial repertoire of fine music for the guitar - by Bartolotti in particular, as well as Corbetta, De Visee and many others. As I have said before - I'm not critisising baroque guitar music. There's indeed some very fine ideomatic music written for that instrument. Several of the guitar books include literate example on how to accompany a bass line. These do sometimes indicate that compromise was necessary because the instrument has a limited compass. Yes, and the more refined these treaties get, the more the guitar gets treated like a mini-lute. There are for examples in Granatas 1659 book where although the bass line indicates a 4-3 suspension over a standard perfect cadence with the bass line falling a 5th he has rearranged the parts so that the 4-3 suspension is in the lowest sounding part. There is no earthly reason why this should not be acceptable. Sorry, but that doesn't make any sense. You can't have a 4-3 suspension in the lowest voice. You can have a forth between the lowest two voices, but than the higher on would need to resolve downwards to a third. What you describe sounds like a 4-3 voice played an octave to low (or rather, the bass voice being displaced an octave too high), but that would result in a 5th resolving to a 6th [1] ... I'm absolutely convinced that this would make any 17th century musician cringe. This is something that just does never happen outside the guitar world. It's not as if we had no information about how musicians (including amateurs) learned and perceived music. And no reason why lutenists should not have done the same if this was inconvenient. For me the issue pretty much is: should I (as a lute player) take as a model an instrument which is severly limited (as a _basso_ continuo instrument) as already noticed by contemporary writers or should I just follow contemporary BC instructions (literally hundreds of them!). When switching from the organ or harpsichord to a lute or theorbo, why should I all of a sudden ignore what I've learned about proper voice leading? With all the stylistic differences between the different continuo styles the common agreement seems to be that continuo should follow the rules of music (BC quasi beeing a
