[LUTE] Re: S.L.Weiss, Prelude WeissSW 33.1
Hello Dennis, in the original there is no flag at all (we should change that on mss.slweiss.de ...). These preludes are relative freely, sort of prélude non mesuré as you wrote, but very often they have some pulse in it, that you can find, if you play it several times I would say, it is in the response of the player to make sense out of it. Best regards Markus Am 18.05.2015 um 10:06 schrieb dc: I'm trying to make rhythmical sense of this prelude (WeissSW 33.1) This site: http://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?id=1type=msms=D-Dl2841-1lang=deushowmss=1 gives a quarter note at the beginning of the tablature And here there is no rhythmical value: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/60516846/Partitions_pour_luth_baroque/Musiques/Les_manuscrits/Dresde/Tablature/Volume_1/WD1_Suite_1.pdf The transcription gives mostly 16th notes, though they don't fit into a regular meter, at least at the beginnin. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/60516846/Partitions_pour_luth_baroque/Musiques/Les_manuscrits/Dresde/Notation_musicale/Volume_1/WD1_Suite_1.pdf Is this a sort of prélude non mesuré? Do the slurs give any metrical indication? Is there any way of knowing which notes fall on the beat in the first two staves? Thanks. Dennis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Markus Lutz Schulstraße 11 88422 Bad Buchau Tel 0 75 82 / 92 62 89 Fax 0 75 82 / 92 62 90 Mail mar...@gmlutz.de
[LUTE] Re: dedillo
Excellent! Can you give us any advice on how to do it? I've always wondered whether it was necessary to support the index finger with the thumb, for instance, in which case it would be like using a very fat stiff plectrum, or whether the movement is just of the index finger. Martin On 18/05/2015 23:18, Robert Barto wrote: [1]https://youtu.be/Cn6fmQXP2Pc Here is a first attempt at dedillo with one of the Milan Fantasies. __ [2]Avast logo Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren geprueft. [3]www.avast.com -- References 1. https://youtu.be/Cn6fmQXP2Pc 2. http://www.avast.com/ 3. http://www.avast.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com
[LUTE] Re: dedillo
Mastering the dedillo http://www.ralphmaier.com/index_files/Page318.htm http://www.ralphmaier.com/index_files/Page318.htm -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: S.L.Weiss, Prelude WeissSW 33.1
Indeed. And, as an aid to finding your own interpretation, try and identify the harmonic changes (often, but not always, concurrent with a low bass) and shape your arpeggios and scalic passages around these phrases. Bear in mind that in these unmeasured works flags are only the crudest of indicators: variations of speed within phrases is, in my view, stylistically acceptable and to be promoted. MH __ From: Markus Lutz mar...@gmlutz.de To: dc den...@free.fr; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, 19 May 2015, 8:27 Subject: [LUTE] Re: S.L.Weiss, Prelude WeissSW 33.1 Hello Dennis, in the original there is no flag at all (we should change that on mss.slweiss.de ...). These preludes are relative freely, sort of prA(c)lude non mesurA(c) as you wrote, but very often they have some pulse in it, that you can find, if you play it several times I would say, it is in the response of the player to make sense out of it. Best regards Markus Am 18.05.2015 um 10:06 schrieb dc: I'm trying to make rhythmical sense of this prelude (WeissSW 33.1) This site: [1]http://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?id=1type=msms=D-Dl2841-1langTHu; showmss=1 gives a quarter note at the beginning of the tablature And here there is no rhythmical value: [2]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/60516846/Partitions_pour_luth_b aroque/Musiques/Les_manuscrits/Dresde/Tablature/Volume_1/WD1_Suite_1.pd f The transcription gives mostly 16th notes, though they don't fit into a regular meter, at least at the beginnin. [3]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/60516846/Partitions_pour_luth_b aroque/Musiques/Les_manuscrits/Dresde/Notation_musicale/Volume_1/WD1_Su ite_1.pdf Is this a sort of prA(c)lude non mesurA(c)? Do the slurs give any metrical indication? Is there any way of knowing which notes fall on the beat in the first two staves? Thanks. Dennis To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Markus Lutz SchulstraAe 11 88422 Bad Buchau Tel 0 75 82 / 92 62 89 Fax 0 75 82 / 92 62 90 Mail [5]mar...@gmlutz.de -- References 1. http://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?id=1type=msms=D-Dl2841-1lang%C3%9Eushowmss=1 2. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/60516846/Partitions_pour_luth_baroque/Musiques/Les_manuscrits/Dresde/Tablature/Volume_1/WD1_Suite_1.pdf 3. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/60516846/Partitions_pour_luth_baroque/Musiques/Les_manuscrits/Dresde/Notation_musicale/Volume_1/WD1_Suite_1.pdf 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. mailto:mar...@gmlutz.de
[LUTE] Re: Gut string diameters
Hello, in the Krünitz (Oekonomische Encyklopädie oder allgemeines System der Staats- Stadt- Haus- und Landwirthschaft = economical encyclopedy or common system of the economy of State, town, house and agriculture - 1773 - 1858) there are descriptions how they used to make strings. But probably these descriptions are from the 19th century already; and he also mentions that the string makers made a secret of their procedures (Article on strings, Saiten - Volume 130, p. 633ff). Zu den feinsten Mandolinsaiten werden nur zwei Därme zusammengedreht; zu den Primviolinsaiten drei Stück; zu den letzten Violinsaiten sieben Stück, zu den dicksten Kontrabaßsaiten dreht man wohl hundert und zwanzig ineinander. - they used 2 guts for mandolin strings, 3 for prime violin, 7 for the thickest violin strings, and for the thick strings of the contra bass they used 120 guts. If you also take into consideration, that the guts also differ in thickness etc. - there is still much room for different sizes. But I'm pretty sure the makers then knew what they did and selected them maybe even manually and by sight. BTW - it is written there, that the best strings are made of at least 7-8 months young animals (sheep, goat, calves and cat). Best regards Markus Am 18.05.2015 um 22:36 schrieb Lex van Sante: Hi all, This contraption was said to be invented by the 19th century violinist and composer Louis Spohr. But you could be right in that it was already in existence and Spohr made it famous. Lex Op 18 mei 2015, om 22:26 heeft Miles Dempster het volgende geschreven: Hi Sean, A 'V' shaped notch formed by two straight edges set at a small angle to eachother can measure small thicknesses very accurately. The thickness of the string is measured by how far you can put the string into the notch. It wouldn't surprise me if something like this could have used. Miles On May 18, 2015, at 4:15 PM, Sean Smith lutesm...@mac.com wrote: Thanks, Martin. The idea that in a bundle you'll have an average and outliers makes sense. ...if you're going to make a homemade roped string (3 strands) the second course is what you use to make a 5th course and the 3rd is what you use to make a 6th course, but I don't think anybody did this in the 16th century. What then would have been the procedure instead? The stringmaker has a better finished product (as nowadays) perhaps using custom diameters? Or maybe the lengths sold would not have been conducive to amateur stringbuilding? Solid gut? If it was indeed more springy then solid may have been more acceptable. The nice thing about the roped strings is that while they can be expensive they do last well. If they sound _too_ dead, it's time to change the octave. The reason I bring this up is that I'm pretty parsimonious when it comes to strings and that would have been an issue for many lutenists without a supportive patron. Would there have been some players who had a deal w/ the local butcher for materials and made their own? There's an old Japanese saying that when the winds come up the cats disappear! Sean On May 18, 2015, at 12:42 PM, Martin Shepherd wrote: Hi Sean, Your friend was right - if you're going to make a homemade roped string (3 strands) the second course is what you use to make a 5th course and the 3rd is what you use to make a 6th course, but I don't think anybody did this in the 16th century. My suspicion is that they bought a bundle of strings labelled 3rd course or whatever, then selected their 3rd course strings from amongst them. The bundle would have included strings of various diameters, around a mean which was determined by the way they were made (how many guts, how they were twisted etc). This kind of system persisted until the 20th century for violin strings. If I'm right, this also means that when Dowland says use a 4th course string for the first two frets he doesn't necessarily mean two frets of exactly the same diameter. He could have graded all the frets very precisely by choosing slightly bigger or smaller strings from each bundle. M On 18/05/2015 21:18, Sean Smith wrote: In buying and using our lute strings we place an awful lot of faith in our micrometers. I see people changing strings for going up or down a tone or even a semitone. Yes, I think I can feel the tension change and hear it to some degree but we're often talking a difference of microns in string difference. For example, a change of .42 to a .43 is 10 microns which is not repeatable on my smaller micrometers (even digital) but is on the 6 digital micrometer. For rougher measurements, say, between 1st, 2nd and 3rd courses, the delta is easily seen/felt and I think that even I could make a measurement device for that for further refinement. In the 16th century, of course, there were no micrometers although I'm sure there were fairly accurate (and perhaps, secret?) methods of fine measurement. I'm wondering how they worked out the diameters. Any place I could read
[LUTE] Lodomericae 37
http://torban.org/lodomericae/audio/481.mp3 http://torban.org/lodomericae/images/481.pdf CANTIO LODOMERICA XXXVIІ RT On 5/11/2015 9:38 PM, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: http://torban.org/lodomericae/audio/480.mp3 http://torban.org/lodomericae/images/480.pdf http://torban.org/lodomericae/audio/479.mp3 http://torban.org/lodomericae/images/479.pdf Enjoy! Amities, RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: dedillo
Robert- Thanks very much for the vids; especially from the two different hand orientations- but now I hear the same problems with sound that caused me to abandon further pursuit of the technique, only your greater patience and stronger commitment have yielded better results; I like what 95% of what I hear when you do it- but so far I hate at least 50% (Back of the nail- can't get rid of that) of what I hear when I do it. Also, certain string crossings (esp. descending) annoyed me. What does that instrument sound like uncapoed? Just personal, but I prefer the lower pitched instruments- G instruments at a-415 down to E or sometimes D. Dan On 5/19/2015 2:33 PM, Robert Barto wrote: Thanks for your interest and kind responses. I'm playing on a viola da mano (60cm) by Richard Fletcher with a capo on the second fret. (I have a smaller one on order.) I have a few test videos of dedillo here: https://youtu.be/Oe0TYyR8TM4 and here from a few months ago in a more thumb out phase: https://youtu.be/6565xf2yQbA Please let me know if they are of any use and how they could be better. (I'm just using my phone camera.) --- Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren geprüft. http://www.avast.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: dedillo
Hi Martin, I'm not sure how clearly one can see on the videos, but i think I mainly just move the finger leaving the last joint fairly loose. In some situations the thumb can be planted, but sometimes one has to land on the thumb to come back up, and then it has to be free. Both thumb out and thumb under have certain advantages but with thumb under angle it's possible to almost entirely avoid the nail on the back stroke. Robert --- Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren geprüft. http://www.avast.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: dedillo
Thanks for your interest and kind responses. I'm playing on a viola da mano (60cm) by Richard Fletcher with a capo on the second fret. (I have a smaller one on order.) I have a few test videos of dedillo here: https://youtu.be/Oe0TYyR8TM4 and here from a few months ago in a more thumb out phase: https://youtu.be/6565xf2yQbA Please let me know if they are of any use and how they could be better. (I'm just using my phone camera.) --- Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren geprüft. http://www.avast.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
