[LUTE] Re: Stringing Question (German Lute)

[G. C.]

   Alain,
   I'm getting a lot of spam nowadays, apparently via djangolute, as that
   is part of the sender name. Your account has obviously been hacked
   somehow!
   G.

   --


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[LUTE] Re: Stringing Question (German Lute)

[Alain Veylit]

Here is a little more info and some transcriptions of music for guitar 
by Scheidler: http://fandango.musickshandmade.com/collections/preview/75 -



On 12/08/2017 04:26 AM, Markus Lutz wrote:
The last professional mandora player (also the last lute player) 
probably had been Johann Christian Gottlieb Scheidler, who was born on 
the 26.11.1747 (260 years ago) in Aken (Elbe) and died on the 15th 
August 1829 in Mainz. He was son of the lutenist and soldier Johann 
Reinhard Scheideler.

But probably he didn't play after around 1815, as he was quite ill then.

Best regards
Markus


Am 08.12.2017 um 10:50 schrieb Martyn Hodgson:

    These instruments were developed in the late nineteenth century as a
    lute shaped guitar to give a sort of historical depth to the late
    romantic notion of players being like early travelling minstrels and
    the like.  Accordingly string your instrument like a nineteenth 
century

    guitar ie gut for strings one to three and overwound for the rest.
    There's also some evidence that they may have a link to the 
historical

    mandora/gallichon: but this is more tenuous since the last recorded
    professional mandora player died around 1810 - but it's possible the
    instrument continued to be played by amateurs and contributed to the
    development of the wandervogel instrument.
    MH
    >> Betreff: [LUTE] Stringing Question (German Lute)
    >> Datum: 2017-11-30T19:58:23+0100
    >> Von: "Tristan von Neumann" <[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
    >> An: "lutelist Net" <[2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
    >>
    >> Hi there,
    >>
    >> I'm currently repairing my old German Lute (6x1, 62cm), 
previously
    >> decorative only. Some ribs have come apart. I managed one 
connection

    >> already.
    >> I noticed that it has very thin ribs (about 1-1.5mm), however the
    >> soundboard is quite thick judging at the rose (about 4-5mm).
    >> There is one leftover string attached on the 4th course, it seems
    >> contemporary and is wound metal.
    >> The lute has a one piece carved pegbox with ornamented back plate
    and
    >> flowerhead, and mechanical pegs. The fingerboard has metal frets
    with
    >> arches in between. The strings are attached with wooden pins into
    holes
    >> in the bridge.
    >> It seems about 100 years old. No maker's plate is visible 
inside the

    bowl.
    >> After having it in ok condition I plan to string it -- what would
    you
    >> suggest? Metal or nylon (in the latter case I'll use my fishing
    line)?
    >> Is there a way to tell if it was metal or gut strung?
    >> Personally I would prefer metal for more cittern-like sound, 
unless

    >> anyone advises strongly against it.
    >>
    >> Cheers
    >> Tristan
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> To get on or off this list see list information at
    >> [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
    >>

    Virus-free. [4]www.avast.com

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[LUTE] Re: German Lute history (was: Stringing Question)

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear Martyn, dear list,

in "The Lute in Europe 2" I was refering to the large numbers of guitars from 
the early twentieth century I have seen which seem to have been used in rough 
environments (that is I think these were actually taken "into the wilderness"), 
while I have seldomly seen guitar lutes which show the same sort of damages.

I have seen photographs, too, of guitar lutes being carried around and played 
in the outdoors, but generally these are largely outnumbered by guitars ...

Just my pennyworth

Joachim


Lektorat & Korrektorat
Dr. Joachim Lüdtke
Blumenstraße 20
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Tel.: 0911 / 976 45 20
Mail: jo.lued...@t-online.de
 
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-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: German Lute history (was: Stringing Question)
Datum: 2017-12-08T17:34:59+0100
Von: "Martyn Hodgson" 
An: "Lutelist Net" 


   To: Tristan von Neumann 
   Sent: Friday, 8 December 2017, 15:35
   Subject: Re: [LUTE] German Lute history (was: Stringing Question)
   Look at the pictures I recently posted which shows these lute shaped
   guitars being taken into 'the wilderness'. There are others.
   A440 is perfectly satisfactory for an e tuned (ie guitar tuned)
   instrument of normal (ie guitar) string length. Gut was, of course,
   employed on guitars until the advent of nylon.
   Hauser did make lutes in the early/mid 20thC but whilst being double
   strung they still exhibit many characteristics of the earlier
   lute-guitar. See for example
   [1]http://guitars.com/inventory/ac1809-1913-hermann-hauser-lute
   Dolmetsch and others were making instruments more closely based on
   historical models at around this time.
   MH
 __

   From: Tristan von Neumann 
   To: lutelist Net 
   Sent: Friday, 8 December 2017, 14:34
   Subject: [LUTE] German Lute history (was: Stringing Question)
   The book "The Lute in Europe 2" states that though the German Lute was
   indeed played by Early Hippies (aka Wandervogel), it wasn't the
   instrument taken into the wilderness. For that purpose, there was the
   Wandervogel-Guitar (I think this is the "Klampfe" that inspired the
   common word for cheap campfire guitars).
   Due to the rib joints coming apart, I can say for sure that the ribs
   are
   very thin like it would be expected in a real lute.
   The soundboard is surely somewhat sturdier.
   The only difference is the pins, the frets, and the peg action.
   Strung with 0.45 Nylon on first course in G 415hz, it sounds much more
   like my Ren. Lute, not a guitar. There's still one rib joint to glue
   though before I dare to install the other strings.
   I can take pictures if you are interested. I have also a later German
   Lute, that is in better shape. It has a windowed peg box and no
   flowerhead, probably a later model. Of this I know that it was played
   in
   the 30s by the grandma of the guy from whom I bought it.
   Personally, I doubt that the Lute shape was intended as an optical
   thing
   for nostalgic purposes. The sound is different, and with gut strings
   maybe even more. I have not heard any gut strung German Lute though.
   I guess 430Hz would be a realistic setting?
   According to Schlegel/Ltke, there seem to be even "real lutes" around
   in the Early 20th century, built with traditional pegboxes and double
   courses, by Hermann Hauser.
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://guitars.com/inventory/ac1809-1913-hermann-hauser-lute
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html



[LUTE] Re: German Lute history (was: Stringing Question)

[Martyn Hodgson]

   To: Tristan von Neumann 
   Sent: Friday, 8 December 2017, 15:35
   Subject: Re: [LUTE] German Lute history (was: Stringing Question)
   Look at the pictures I recently posted which shows these lute shaped
   guitars being taken into 'the wilderness'. There are others.
   A440 is perfectly satisfactory for an e tuned (ie guitar tuned)
   instrument of normal (ie guitar) string length. Gut was, of course,
   employed on guitars until the advent of nylon.
   Hauser did make lutes in the early/mid 20thC but whilst being double
   strung they still exhibit many characteristics of the earlier
   lute-guitar. See for example
   [1]http://guitars.com/inventory/ac1809-1913-hermann-hauser-lute
   Dolmetsch and others were making instruments more closely based on
   historical models at around this time.
   MH
 __

   From: Tristan von Neumann 
   To: lutelist Net 
   Sent: Friday, 8 December 2017, 14:34
   Subject: [LUTE] German Lute history (was: Stringing Question)
   The book "The Lute in Europe 2" states that though the German Lute was
   indeed played by Early Hippies (aka Wandervogel), it wasn't the
   instrument taken into the wilderness. For that purpose, there was the
   Wandervogel-Guitar (I think this is the "Klampfe" that inspired the
   common word for cheap campfire guitars).
   Due to the rib joints coming apart, I can say for sure that the ribs
   are
   very thin like it would be expected in a real lute.
   The soundboard is surely somewhat sturdier.
   The only difference is the pins, the frets, and the peg action.
   Strung with 0.45 Nylon on first course in G 415hz, it sounds much more
   like my Ren. Lute, not a guitar. There's still one rib joint to glue
   though before I dare to install the other strings.
   I can take pictures if you are interested. I have also a later German
   Lute, that is in better shape. It has a windowed peg box and no
   flowerhead, probably a later model. Of this I know that it was played
   in
   the 30s by the grandma of the guy from whom I bought it.
   Personally, I doubt that the Lute shape was intended as an optical
   thing
   for nostalgic purposes. The sound is different, and with gut strings
   maybe even more. I have not heard any gut strung German Lute though.
   I guess 430Hz would be a realistic setting?
   According to Schlegel/Lütke, there seem to be even "real lutes" around
   in the Early 20th century, built with traditional pegboxes and double
   courses, by Hermann Hauser.
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://guitars.com/inventory/ac1809-1913-hermann-hauser-lute
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Stringing Question (German Lute)

[G. C.]

   Ralf Mattes wrote:
   Simon Molitor's 'Grosse Sonate für die Guitare allein' (btw. an
   amazing source
   for the researcher of lute ... that man had an incredible knowledge of
   the
   early history of lute).
   WHAT
   To me, Molitor's foreword to his Op. 7 (found in IMSLP) seems
   ignorantly lacunose not to say downright false. He mainly parrots what
   he's read in Forkel's Allgemeine Geschichte der Musik. He completely
   ignores that already the Babylonians and Egyptians and Romans had
   guitar like instruments. He calls the Rotta / Crotta /Crwth a "kind of
   guitar" while in the next sentence saying that it was played with a
   bow! And from this instrument, the lute, guitar, and even the violin
   should have emerged, as: "it is the FIRST instrument with a neck,
   making possible, the production of many different tones on its
   fingerboard." And the citole was supposedly very similar.
   The lute and guitar as we know them, were developed in France in the
   14th c. after a newly discovered 3 string violin (the rebec!) ousted
   the earlier "Leyer".
   He completely fails to mention the emergence of the oud from an ancient
   middle Eastern tradition and its development into the renaissance lute.
   What a lot of poppycock.
   G.

   On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 2:08 PM, Ralf Mattes <[1]r...@mh-freiburg.de>
   wrote:

 Am Freitag, 08. Dezember 2017 13:26 CET, Markus Lutz
 <[2]mar...@gmlutz.de> schrieb:
 > The last professional mandora player (also the last lute player)
 > probably had been Johann Christian Gottlieb Scheidler, who was
 born on
 > the 26.11.1747 (260 years ago) in Aken (Elbe) and died on the 15th
 > August 1829 in Mainz. He was son of the lutenist and soldier
 Johann
 > Reinhard Scheideler.
 > But probably he didn't play after around 1815, as he was quite ill
 then.
 I think we shouldn'T focus too much on labels like 'the last ...'
 It's pretty clea that instruments of the lute family slowly
 disapeared from the
 public music live. But that says little about the instrument's
 continued use in
 private circles. Doesn't E.T.A. Hoffmann mention the lute in 'Kater
 Murr'?
 (the same goes for the viola da gamba in England an Germany. One of
 my friends owns a viola da gamba d'amore that was probably built
 ~1820-30
 [3]http://ekkehardweber.de/amore_text_2.html).
 Also telling: Molitor, when writing about the lute, states that the
 instruments
 appearance should be common to most readers (he's writing about the
 baroque lute in d-minor tuning).
 Cheers, RalfD
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:r...@mh-freiburg.de
   2. mailto:mar...@gmlutz.de
   3. http://ekkehardweber.de/amore_text_2.html
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] German Lute history (was: Stringing Question)

[Tristan von Neumann]

The book "The Lute in Europe 2" states that though the German Lute was 
indeed played by Early Hippies (aka Wandervogel), it wasn't the 
instrument taken into the wilderness. For that purpose, there was the 
Wandervogel-Guitar (I think this is the "Klampfe" that inspired the 
common word for cheap campfire guitars).


Due to the rib joints coming apart, I can say for sure that the ribs are 
very thin like it would be expected in a real lute.

The soundboard is surely somewhat sturdier.
The only difference is the pins, the frets, and the peg action.
Strung with 0.45 Nylon on first course in G 415hz, it sounds much more 
like my Ren. Lute, not a guitar. There's still one rib joint to glue 
though before I dare to install the other strings.


I can take pictures if you are interested. I have also a later German 
Lute, that is in better shape. It has a windowed peg box and no 
flowerhead, probably a later model. Of this I know that it was played in 
the 30s by the grandma of the guy from whom I bought it.


Personally, I doubt that the Lute shape was intended as an optical thing 
for nostalgic purposes. The sound is different, and with gut strings 
maybe even more. I have not heard any gut strung German Lute though.

I guess 430Hz would be a realistic setting?

According to Schlegel/Lütke, there seem to be even "real lutes" around 
in the Early 20th century, built with traditional pegboxes and double 
courses, by Hermann Hauser.




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Stringing Question (German Lute)

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Markus,
   Thanks for the comment about Scheidler. In fact I singled him out  in
   my earlier interpolation on Ralf's message, Here is what I wrote to
   him:
   'Indeed, it was Molitor's preface, amongst other things (eg Zincke), I
   was thinking of when saying there was 'some evidence':  he describes a
   mandora player who had decided to switch to single strings etc!
   Incidentally, the usual mandora tuning changed over the eighteenth
   century from being in a nominal d to nominal e (both with six course
   intervals as the guitar - indeed, I've speculated that the eigtheenth
   century six course mandora might have influenced the adoption of a
   sixth string on the guitar in German speaking lands. For example,
   tellingly, Scheidler's two guitar sonatas of 1793 the first of which
   employs a sixth course/string in a common mandora tuning with the sixth
   just a tone below the fifth). '
   Interestingly, I think it at least equally possible that Zincke may
   have been the mandora player mentioned by Molitor in Vienna since he
   also lived there for a period, but, you may be right, it could have
   been Scheidler though he seems to have been based further North in
   Frankfurt - his two sonatas were printed in Rotterdam
Joseph Zincke's (or Zinck) extant works are  mostly found in the very extensive
Eichstadt collections  and, in my view, are especially attractive.  I included a
 Serenatta (Sonata) by him for  Flauto, Violino, Violoncello (o Fagotto!) and ma
ndora in a concert and it went down very well. The style is not a million miles
away from the best of that unjustly neglected (and early) proponent of the  new
six string guitar Von (De) Call - also a contemporary of Molitor

regards

Martyn
 __

   From: Markus Lutz 
   To: lutelist Net 
   Sent: Friday, 8 December 2017, 12:28
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Stringing Question (German Lute)
   The last professional mandora player (also the last lute player)
   probably had been Johann Christian Gottlieb Scheidler, who was born on
   the 26.11.1747 (260 years ago) in Aken (Elbe) and died on the 15th
   August 1829 in Mainz. He was son of the lutenist and soldier Johann
   Reinhard Scheideler.
   But probably he didn't play after around 1815, as he was quite ill
   then.
   Best regards
   Markus
   Am 08.12.2017 um 10:50 schrieb Martyn Hodgson:
   >These instruments were developed in the late nineteenth century as
   a
   >lute shaped guitar to give a sort of historical depth to the late
   >romantic notion of players being like early travelling minstrels
   and
   >the like.  Accordingly string your instrument like a nineteenth
   century
   >guitar ie gut for strings one to three and overwound for the rest.
   >There's also some evidence that they may have a link to the
   historical
   >mandora/gallichon: but this is more tenuous since the last
   recorded
   >professional mandora player died around 1810 - but it's possible
   the
   >instrument continued to be played by amateurs and contributed to
   the
   >development of the wandervogel instrument.
   >MH
   >>> Betreff: [LUTE] Stringing Question (German Lute)
   >>> Datum: 2017-11-30T19:58:23+0100
   >>> Von: "Tristan von Neumann" <[1][1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
   >>> An: "lutelist Net" <[2][2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   >>>
   >>> Hi there,
   >>>
   >>> I'm currently repairing my old German Lute (6x1, 62cm),
   previously
   >>> decorative only. Some ribs have come apart. I managed one
   connection
   >>> already.
   >>> I noticed that it has very thin ribs (about 1-1.5mm), however
   the
   >>> soundboard is quite thick judging at the rose (about 4-5mm).
   >>> There is one leftover string attached on the 4th course, it
   seems
   >>> contemporary and is wound metal.
   >>> The lute has a one piece carved pegbox with ornamented back
   plate
   >and
   >>> flowerhead, and mechanical pegs. The fingerboard has metal
   frets
   >with
   >>> arches in between. The strings are attached with wooden pins
   into
   >holes
   >>> in the bridge.
   >>> It seems about 100 years old. No maker's plate is visible
   inside the
   >bowl.
   >>> After having it in ok condition I plan to string it -- what
   would
   >you
   >>> suggest? Metal or nylon (in the latter case I'll use my fishing
   >line)?
   >>> Is there a way to tell if it was metal or gut strung?
   >>> Personally I would prefer metal for more cittern-like sound,
   unless
   >>> anyone advises strongly against it.
   >>>
   >>> Cheers
   >>> Tristan
   >>>
   >>>
   >>>
   >>> To get on or off this list see list information at
   >>> [3][3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >>>
   >
   >Virus-free. 

[LUTE] Re: Stringing Question (German Lute)

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Freitag, 08. Dezember 2017 13:26 CET, Markus Lutz  
schrieb: 
 
> The last professional mandora player (also the last lute player) 
> probably had been Johann Christian Gottlieb Scheidler, who was born on 
> the 26.11.1747 (260 years ago) in Aken (Elbe) and died on the 15th 
> August 1829 in Mainz. He was son of the lutenist and soldier Johann 
> Reinhard Scheideler.
> But probably he didn't play after around 1815, as he was quite ill then.

I think we shouldn'T focus too much on labels like 'the last ...' 
It's pretty clea that instruments of the lute family slowly disapeared from the
public music live. But that says little about the instrument's continued use in
private circles. Doesn't E.T.A. Hoffmann mention the lute in 'Kater Murr'?
(the same goes for the viola da gamba in England an Germany. One of
my friends owns a viola da gamba d'amore that was probably built ~1820-30
http://ekkehardweber.de/amore_text_2.html).
Also telling: Molitor, when writing about the lute, states that the instruments
appearance should be common to most readers (he's writing about the 
baroque lute in d-minor tuning).

Cheers, RalfD
  

 
 
 





To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Stringing Question (German Lute)

[Markus Lutz]

The last professional mandora player (also the last lute player) 
probably had been Johann Christian Gottlieb Scheidler, who was born on 
the 26.11.1747 (260 years ago) in Aken (Elbe) and died on the 15th 
August 1829 in Mainz. He was son of the lutenist and soldier Johann 
Reinhard Scheideler.

But probably he didn't play after around 1815, as he was quite ill then.

Best regards
Markus


Am 08.12.2017 um 10:50 schrieb Martyn Hodgson:

These instruments were developed in the late nineteenth century as a
lute shaped guitar to give a sort of historical depth to the late
romantic notion of players being like early travelling minstrels and
the like.  Accordingly string your instrument like a nineteenth century
guitar ie gut for strings one to three and overwound for the rest.
There's also some evidence that they may have a link to the historical
mandora/gallichon: but this is more tenuous since the last recorded
professional mandora player died around 1810 - but it's possible the
instrument continued to be played by amateurs and contributed to the
development of the wandervogel instrument.
MH
>> Betreff: [LUTE] Stringing Question (German Lute)
>> Datum: 2017-11-30T19:58:23+0100
>> Von: "Tristan von Neumann" <[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
>> An: "lutelist Net" <[2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>>
>> Hi there,
>>
>> I'm currently repairing my old German Lute (6x1, 62cm), previously
>> decorative only. Some ribs have come apart. I managed one connection
>> already.
>> I noticed that it has very thin ribs (about 1-1.5mm), however the
>> soundboard is quite thick judging at the rose (about 4-5mm).
>> There is one leftover string attached on the 4th course, it seems
>> contemporary and is wound metal.
>> The lute has a one piece carved pegbox with ornamented back plate
and
>> flowerhead, and mechanical pegs. The fingerboard has metal frets
with
>> arches in between. The strings are attached with wooden pins into
holes
>> in the bridge.
>> It seems about 100 years old. No maker's plate is visible inside the
bowl.
>> After having it in ok condition I plan to string it -- what would
you
>> suggest? Metal or nylon (in the latter case I'll use my fishing
line)?
>> Is there a way to tell if it was metal or gut strung?
>> Personally I would prefer metal for more cittern-like sound, unless
>> anyone advises strongly against it.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Tristan
>>
>>
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>

Virus-free. [4]www.avast.com

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Tel  0 75 82 / 92 62 89
Fax  0 75 82 / 92 62 90
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[LUTE] Re: Re:(German Lute)

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Ralf,
   Comments interpolated into your text below.
   Martyn
 __

   From: Ralf Mattes 
   To: Martyn Hodgson 
   Cc: Tristan von Neumann ; lutelist Net
   
   Sent: Friday, 8 December 2017, 10:16
   Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re:(German Lute)
   Am Freitag, 08. Dezember 2017 10:50 CET, Martyn Hodgson
   <[1]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu> schrieb:
   >These instruments were developed in the late nineteenth century as
   a
   >lute shaped guitar to give a sort of historical depth to the late
   >romantic notion of players being like early travelling minstrels
   and
   >the like.
   Is there any reliable evidence for this?
   Yes - quite a lot of pictures as well, of course, of extant instruments
   dating from this time into the 1920/30s and, indeed, even beyond.
   Depictions such as this below also give a flavour (note the cover
   speaks of 'Gitarren od. Lauten' and depicts players of both). Though
   there's a lot more guitars in the second picture! - only serves to
   emphasise that these were nothing more than lute shaped guitars
   [2]Google Images
   [google.png]

Google Images

   Google Images. The most comprehensive image search on the web.
   [3]Google Images
   [google.png]

Google Images

   Google Images. The most comprehensive image search on the web.
   >  Accordingly string your instrument like a nineteenth century
   >guitar ie gut for strings one to three and overwound for the rest.
   >There's also some evidence that they may have a link to the
   historical
   >mandora/gallichon: but this is more tenuous since the last
   recorded
   >professional mandora player died around 1810 - but it's possible
   the
   >instrument continued to be played by amateurs
   I think there's ample evidence for this - have a look at the elaborate
   preface to
   Simon Molitor's 'Grosse Sonate für die Guitare allein' (btw. an
   amazing source
   for the researcher of lute ... that man had an incredible knowledge of
   the
   early history of lute). The footnote on page 10 talks about the bad
   habit of
   playing with nails (to imitate the sound of metal strings). Page 11
   briefly mentions
   why lute and mandor (his spelling) went out of  favour (light
   compositions, constant
   arpegiation of 'rule-less' chords, ... lack of compsition).
   Indeed, it was Molitor's preface, amongst other things (eg Zincke), I
   was thinking of when saying there was 'some evidence':  he describes a
   mandora player who had decided to switch to single strings etc!
   Incidentally, the usual mandora tuning changed over the eighteenth
   century from being in a nominal d to nominal e (both with six course
   intervals as the guitar - indeed, I've speculated that the eigtheenth
   century six course mandora might have influenced the adoption of a
   sixth string on the guitar in German speaking lands. For example,
   tellingly, Scheidler's two guitar sonatas of 1793 the first of which
   employs a sixth course/string in a common mandora tuning with the sixth
   just a tone below the fifth).
   In the footnote on the same pages Molitor shows a strong preference for
   instruments
   with a lute body (and condems the use of bridge pins and states that
   tied frets will
   prodce better tone ...). Reading that preface it almost sounds like a
   lute player
   being forced to play the guitar ;-)
   >. and contributed to the
   >development of the wandervogel instrument.
   We really should stop calling this instrument 'Wandervogellauten'. Even
   so _some_
   mebers of the Wandervogel movement did play such instruments the
   instrument
   existed long before that movement started and was widely used in
   Germany and
   Austria.
   Well yes - up to a point. The Wandervogel movement dates from the late
   nineteenth century and whilst the instrument was used before this, it
   is clear that it was taken up with gusto by the movement in the
   1920/30s as, perhaps, a sort of symbol of ancient romantic Germanic
   folk culture.
   [4]Wandervogel - History of the Movement

Wandervogel - History of the Movement

   Big Bend, Texas, wilderness hiking, camping, adventure store and travel
   resource.

   Of course the movement then became taken over in a more sinister
   fashion which I hesitate to go further into
   Martyn
   Cheers, Ralf Mattes
   >MH
   >>> Betreff: [LUTE] Stringing Question (German Lute)
   >>> Datum: 2017-11-30T19:58:23+0100
   >>> Von: "Tristan von Neumann" <[1][5]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
   >>> An: "lutelist Net" <[2][6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   >>>
   >>> Hi there,
   >>>
   >>> I'm currently repairing my old German Lute (6x1, 62cm),
   previously
   >>> decorative only. Some ribs have come apart. I managed one
   

[LUTE] Re: Stringing Question (German Lute)

[Ralf Mattes]

 
Am Freitag, 08. Dezember 2017 10:50 CET, Martyn Hodgson 
 schrieb: 
 
>These instruments were developed in the late nineteenth century as a
>lute shaped guitar to give a sort of historical depth to the late
>romantic notion of players being like early travelling minstrels and
>the like. 


Is there any reliable evidence for this?

>   Accordingly string your instrument like a nineteenth century
>guitar ie gut for strings one to three and overwound for the rest.
>There's also some evidence that they may have a link to the historical
>mandora/gallichon: but this is more tenuous since the last recorded
>professional mandora player died around 1810 - but it's possible the
>instrument continued to be played by amateurs 

I think there's ample evidence for this - have a look at the elaborate preface 
to
Simon Molitor's 'Grosse Sonate für die Guitare allein' (btw. an amazing source
for the researcher of lute ... that man had an incredible knowledge of the
early history of lute). The footnote on page 10 talks about the bad habit of
playing with nails (to imitate the sound of metal strings). Page 11 briefly 
mentions
why lute and mandor (his spelling) went out of  favour (light compositions, 
constant
arpegiation of 'rule-less' chords, ... lack of compsition).
In the footnote on the same pages Molitor shows a strong preference for 
instruments
with a lute body (and condems the use of bridge pins and states that tied frets 
will
prodce better tone ...). Reading that preface it almost sounds like a lute 
player
being forced to play the guitar ;-)

>. and contributed to the
>development of the wandervogel instrument.

We really should stop calling this instrument 'Wandervogellauten'. Even so 
_some_
mebers of the Wandervogel movement did play such instruments the instrument 
existed long before that movement started and was widely used in Germany and
Austria. 

 Cheers, Ralf Mattes


>MH
>>> Betreff: [LUTE] Stringing Question (German Lute)
>>> Datum: 2017-11-30T19:58:23+0100
>>> Von: "Tristan von Neumann" <[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
>>> An: "lutelist Net" <[2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>>>
>>> Hi there,
>>>
>>> I'm currently repairing my old German Lute (6x1, 62cm), previously
>>> decorative only. Some ribs have come apart. I managed one connection
>>> already.
>>> I noticed that it has very thin ribs (about 1-1.5mm), however the
>>> soundboard is quite thick judging at the rose (about 4-5mm).
>>> There is one leftover string attached on the 4th course, it seems
>>> contemporary and is wound metal.
>>> The lute has a one piece carved pegbox with ornamented back plate
>and
>>> flowerhead, and mechanical pegs. The fingerboard has metal frets
>with
>>> arches in between. The strings are attached with wooden pins into
>holes
>>> in the bridge.
>>> It seems about 100 years old. No maker's plate is visible inside the
>bowl.
>>> After having it in ok condition I plan to string it -- what would
>you
>>> suggest? Metal or nylon (in the latter case I'll use my fishing
>line)?
>>> Is there a way to tell if it was metal or gut strung?
>>> Personally I would prefer metal for more cittern-like sound, unless
>>> anyone advises strongly against it.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Tristan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>> [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>>
> 
>Virus-free. [4]www.avast.com
> 
>--
> 
> References
> 
>Visible links
>1. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
>2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
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>4. 
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> 
 
 
 
 

[LUTE] Re: Stringing Question (German Lute)

[Martyn Hodgson]

   These instruments were developed in the late nineteenth century as a
   lute shaped guitar to give a sort of historical depth to the late
   romantic notion of players being like early travelling minstrels and
   the like.  Accordingly string your instrument like a nineteenth century
   guitar ie gut for strings one to three and overwound for the rest.
   There's also some evidence that they may have a link to the historical
   mandora/gallichon: but this is more tenuous since the last recorded
   professional mandora player died around 1810 - but it's possible the
   instrument continued to be played by amateurs and contributed to the
   development of the wandervogel instrument.
   MH
   >> Betreff: [LUTE] Stringing Question (German Lute)
   >> Datum: 2017-11-30T19:58:23+0100
   >> Von: "Tristan von Neumann" <[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
   >> An: "lutelist Net" <[2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   >>
   >> Hi there,
   >>
   >> I'm currently repairing my old German Lute (6x1, 62cm), previously
   >> decorative only. Some ribs have come apart. I managed one connection
   >> already.
   >> I noticed that it has very thin ribs (about 1-1.5mm), however the
   >> soundboard is quite thick judging at the rose (about 4-5mm).
   >> There is one leftover string attached on the 4th course, it seems
   >> contemporary and is wound metal.
   >> The lute has a one piece carved pegbox with ornamented back plate
   and
   >> flowerhead, and mechanical pegs. The fingerboard has metal frets
   with
   >> arches in between. The strings are attached with wooden pins into
   holes
   >> in the bridge.
   >> It seems about 100 years old. No maker's plate is visible inside the
   bowl.
   >> After having it in ok condition I plan to string it -- what would
   you
   >> suggest? Metal or nylon (in the latter case I'll use my fishing
   line)?
   >> Is there a way to tell if it was metal or gut strung?
   >> Personally I would prefer metal for more cittern-like sound, unless
   >> anyone advises strongly against it.
   >>
   >> Cheers
   >> Tristan
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >> To get on or off this list see list information at
   >> [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >>

   Virus-free. [4]www.avast.com

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