[LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky

2019-03-04 Thread Jurgen Frenz 
It would be totally excellent if you'd find out where Besard made that 
suggestion.
Thanks,
jurgen


--
“There is a voice that doesn’t use words. Listen.”

Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Tuesday, March 5, 2019 10:40 AM, Alain Veylit  
wrote:

> That's odd because I remember O'Dette's advice for the left-hand pinky:
> plant it vertically on the string instead of laying it flat - which
> requires more effort. That should mean his left-hand little finger can
> bend... Not a conclusive proof for the right hand little finger but ...
> For Renaissance lute, if I am not mistaken, the right-hand little finger
> is supposed to be parallel to the sound board, just lightly brushing on
> it, and it should remain extended.
>
> Anybody with a good explanation as to how additional basses would alter
> the right hand position? If I recall, Besard still argued for a mixed
> technique, thumb-under for fast runs and thumb over for whatever else
> (chords). I think it is logical that increasing dedication of the thumb
> to the bass strings does account for the shift in right-hand position,
> and when you think about it, it is not a small revolution in music
> history...
>
> On 3/4/19 7:12 PM, Richard Brook wrote:
>
> > Heard via the late great Pat OBrien Paul O’Dette couldn’t bend that finger 
> > down by itself. Though I think Pat said in my case the fault was in my 
> > head, not in the stars.
> > D ick Brook
> >
> > > On Mar 4, 2019, at 6:58 PM, Alain Veylit al...@musickshandmade.com wrote:
> > > Good one Rainer - Anybody remembers the title of that American series 
> > > from the 60s-70s where aliens live among us in disguise, and the only 
> > > sure way to identify them is that they cannot bend their little finger?
> > > Worth mentioning also about right-hand technique, Jimmy Hendrix playing 
> > > with his teeth - frustrated leftie, you think?
> > > On 3/4/19 12:19 PM, Rainer wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 04.03.2019 17:11, Alain Veylit wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > And then, there is Django Reinhardt... one big exception to the rules 
> > > > > of guitar playing. Experimenting with various techniques has probably 
> > > > > always been a popular habit among musicians, whether by choice or 
> > > > > force.
> > > >
> > > > And Aguado used the 4th finger of the right hand. Perhaps he was an 
> > > > alien :)
> > > > Rainer
> > > > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Tip - Lute Scribe character / font question

2019-03-04 Thread Jurgen Frenz 
Oops - I REALLY was ignorant about the image issue. Here is a link to google 
docs, I inserted the screen shots into a text file.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s4MoYEk4QArbZBENI9AWZ_GJDGKms1VYFFZt_LTsp7E/edit?usp=sharing

Best
Jurgen


--
“There is a voice that doesn’t use words. Listen.”

Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Tuesday, March 5, 2019 9:47 AM, wayne lute  wrote:

> Hi Lute People and Jurgen -
>
> Looks like you don’t know that the lute list does not like pictures, which in 
> this case is a shame.
> Perhaps you could post them on a web site or google documents. They show 
> characters,
> especially the letter e, in lute-scribe input format and as output by my 
> “tab” programt. Jurgen says . . .
>
> Hello there,
> I am asking about the "e" in lute scribe - in the editor the character 
> appears as a "normal" minuscule e whereas in print the character has changed 
> to a tilted small capital "E" as documented in the attached screenshots - 
> actually I very much like that capital E but I cannot find it in the font. 
> How does this miracle happen?
>
> Thanks for a hint,
> Jurgen
>
> you can email Jurgen at eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com 
> mailto:eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com and you can read about my tab 
> program at https://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute/AboutTab.html
>
> Wayne
>
> > Begin forwarded message:
> > From: Jurgen Frenz eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com
> > Subject: [LUTE] Lute Scribe character / font question
> > Date: March 4, 2019 at 9:14:51 PM EST
> > To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> > Reply-To: Jurgen Frenz eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com
> > ogѕхэ7uЗ§oMЙoVкуmКпо_зЎЕзpЈžзЇЕ<ЉzзБЗњej)м
> > Њьz
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
> --

[LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky

2019-03-04 Thread howard posner 


> On Mar 4, 2019, at 7:12 PM, Richard Brook  wrote:
> 
> Heard via the late great Pat OBrien Paul O’Dette couldn’t bend that finger 
> down by itself.

To be clear, in Paul’s younger days he had the not-uncommon problem of having 
the left-hand pinky stick up when it wasn’t in use, which kept the fingertip 
inefficiently far away from the fingerboard.  He kept being told, by people who 
hadn’t thought much about it, that the solution was to concentrate really hard 
on keeping it curved, advice which would have done more harm than good if he 
paid attention to it.  The problem is caused by too much tension in the left 
hand, and goes away when the hand is relaxed, which is what Paul learned from 
Pat.  Paul mentioned this in a master class (probably many times).  I never 
heard Pat talk about it, though I’m sure he did.



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[LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky

2019-03-04 Thread Alain Veylit 
That's odd because I remember O'Dette's advice for the left-hand pinky: 
plant it vertically on the string instead of laying it flat - which 
requires more effort. That should mean his left-hand little finger can 
bend... Not a conclusive proof for the right hand little finger but ... 
For Renaissance lute, if I am not mistaken, the right-hand little finger 
is supposed to be parallel to the sound board, just lightly brushing on 
it, and it should remain extended.


Anybody with a good explanation as to how additional basses would alter 
the right hand position? If I recall, Besard still argued for a mixed 
technique, thumb-under for fast runs and thumb over for whatever else 
(chords). I think it is logical that increasing dedication of the thumb 
to the bass strings does account for the shift in right-hand position, 
and when you think about it, it is not a small revolution in music 
history...



On 3/4/19 7:12 PM, Richard Brook wrote:

Heard via the late great Pat OBrien Paul O’Dette couldn’t bend that finger down 
by itself. Though I think Pat said in my case the fault was in my head, not in 
the stars.
  
D ick Brook



On Mar 4, 2019, at 6:58 PM, Alain Veylit  wrote:

Good one Rainer - Anybody remembers the title of that American series from the 
60s-70s where aliens live among us in disguise, and the only sure way to 
identify them is that they cannot bend their little finger?

Worth mentioning also about right-hand technique, Jimmy Hendrix playing with 
his teeth - frustrated leftie, you think?



On 3/4/19 12:19 PM, Rainer wrote:

On 04.03.2019 17:11, Alain Veylit wrote:

And then, there is Django Reinhardt... one big exception to the rules of guitar 
playing. Experimenting with various techniques has probably always been a 
popular habit among musicians, whether by choice or force.


And Aguado used the 4th finger of the right hand. Perhaps he was an alien :)

Rainer



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky

2019-03-04 Thread Richard Brook 
Heard via the late great Pat OBrien Paul O’Dette couldn’t bend that finger down 
by itself. Though I think Pat said in my case the fault was in my head, not in 
the stars.

Dick Brook

> On Mar 4, 2019, at 6:58 PM, Alain Veylit  wrote:
> 
> Good one Rainer - Anybody remembers the title of that American series from 
> the 60s-70s where aliens live among us in disguise, and the only sure way to 
> identify them is that they cannot bend their little finger?
> 
> Worth mentioning also about right-hand technique, Jimmy Hendrix playing with 
> his teeth - frustrated leftie, you think?
> 
> 
> 
> On 3/4/19 12:19 PM, Rainer wrote:
>> On 04.03.2019 17:11, Alain Veylit wrote:
>>> And then, there is Django Reinhardt... one big exception to the rules of 
>>> guitar playing. Experimenting with various techniques has probably always 
>>> been a popular habit among musicians, whether by choice or force.
>>> 
>> 
>> And Aguado used the 4th finger of the right hand. Perhaps he was an alien :)
>> 
>> Rainer
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
>

[LUTE] Tip - Lute Scribe character / font question

2019-03-04 Thread wayne lute 
Hi Lute People and Jurgen -

  Looks like you don’t know that the lute list does not like pictures, which 
in this case is a shame. 
Perhaps you could post them on a web site or google documents.  They show 
characters, 
especially the letter e, in lute-scribe input format and as  output by my 
“tab” programt.  Jurgen says . . .

Hello there,
I am asking about the "e" in lute scribe - in the editor the character appears 
as a "normal" minuscule e whereas in print the character has changed to a 
tilted small capital "E" as documented in the attached screenshots - actually I 
very much like that capital E but I cannot find it in the font. How does this 
miracle happen?

Thanks for a hint,
Jurgen

you can email Jurgen at eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com 
  and you can read about my tab 
program at https://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute/AboutTab.html

Wayne

  
> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> From: Jurgen Frenz 
> Subject: [LUTE] Lute Scribe character / font question
> Date: March 4, 2019 at 9:14:51 PM EST
> To: Lute List 
> Reply-To: Jurgen Frenz 
> 
> ogѕхэ7uЗ§oMЙoVкуmКпо_зЎЕзpЈžзЇЕ<ЉzзБЗњej)м
> Њьz
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


--

[LUTE] Lute Scribe character / font question

2019-03-04 Thread Jurgen Frenz 
ogõåí7u·ýoM¹oVÚãmºßÞ_×®µ×p¨ž×§µ<©z×±·úej)܅ªìz

To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky

2019-03-04 Thread howard posner 


> On Mar 4, 2019, at 3:58 PM, Alain Veylit  wrote:
> 
> Anybody remembers the title of that American series from the 60s-70s where 
> aliens live among us in disguise, and the only sure way to identify them is 
> that they cannot bend their little finger?

>From the Wikipedia page about The Invaders, which aired on ABC in 1967:

They had certain characteristics by which they could be detected, such as the 
absence of a pulse or heartbeat and the inability to bleed. Most of the aliens, 
in particular the lowest-ranking members or workers in green jumpsuits, were 
emotionless and had deformed little fingers which could not move and were bent 
at an unnatural angle, although there were "deluxe models" who could manipulate 
this finger.

> Worth mentioning also about right-hand technique, Jimmy Hendrix playing with 
> his teeth - frustrated leftie, you think?

More likely an alien.




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[LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky

2019-03-04 Thread Alain Veylit 
Good one Rainer - Anybody remembers the title of that American series 
from the 60s-70s where aliens live among us in disguise, and the only 
sure way to identify them is that they cannot bend their little finger?


Worth mentioning also about right-hand technique, Jimmy Hendrix playing 
with his teeth - frustrated leftie, you think?




On 3/4/19 12:19 PM, Rainer wrote:

On 04.03.2019 17:11, Alain Veylit wrote:
And then, there is Django Reinhardt... one big exception to the rules 
of guitar playing. Experimenting with various techniques has probably 
always been a popular habit among musicians, whether by choice or force.




And Aguado used the 4th finger of the right hand. Perhaps he was an 
alien :)


Rainer



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Caravaggio

2019-03-04 Thread Rainer 

On 04.03.2019 17:11, Alain Veylit wrote:

And then, there is Django Reinhardt... one big exception to the rules of guitar 
playing. Experimenting with various techniques has probably always been a 
popular habit among musicians, whether by choice or force.



And Aguado used the 4th finger of the right hand. Perhaps he was an alien :)

Rainer



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Denis Gaultier

2019-03-04 Thread Jorge Torres 
The preface to Gallot’s publication states a similar accusation:

"Je n’ay pas crû devoir faire l’Orateur pour le justifier, ny pour 
prévenir la critique.  Il n’y à que les bonnes choses qui se l’attirent 
et les méchantes ne le méritent pas.  Je ne prétends pas éviter non plus 
l’envie.  Loing de m’en plaindre, j’ay lieu de me loüer d’elle quant 
elle m’accuse de piller le vieux Gautier, rien ne peut faire plus d’honneur 
à mon ouvrage.”



I have not felt obliged to play orator in order to justify it (this work), nor 
to ward off criticism. It is only the good that are drawn to it, and the bad do 
not deserve it. Nor do I claim to avoid envy. Far from complaining, I have 
cause to be pleased with it (envy) when it accuses me of plagiarizing Old 
Gautier; nothing could bestow more honor on my work.

--Jacques Gallot, Pièces de luth, Paris, 1684.




> On Dec 10, 2017, at 4:39 AM, Francois-Pierre Goy  wrote:
> 
>   Hi,
> 
>   Â
> 
>   I don't think one can accuse Denis of having "hijacked" or "passed on
>   works by Ennemond as his own". On the contrary, he was careful to
>   distinguish their respective works in the Livre de tablature (for which
>   he took a privilege as early as December 1669
>   ([1]http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b90632544/f89.item), but which
>   appeared only after his death. Most confusions in the attributions are
>   due to people who copied the pieces into their lute books, often years
>   after their composition, and also that the editors of the CNRS Vieux
>   Gaultier volume included in their edition everything they found
>   attributed to him at least once, without questioning the accurateness
>   of the attributions.
> 
>   Â
> 
>   As to Ennemond's pieces being transcribed from earlier tunings, this
>   undoubtedly occurred for one of them, but not necessarily for many
>   more. When I studied the repertoire in accords nouveaux, almost thirty
>   years ago, I was surprised to find how few pieces had versions in both
>   old tuning and accords nouveaux or in both accords nouveaux and d-minor
>   tuning. Of course, many sources have been lost, but none of those which
>   has reappeared since has contradicted this notion. Add to this that the
>   d-minor tuning must have appeared shortly before 1638, when the first
>   pieces on this tuning appeared, and that Ennemond lived until 1651 and
>   had thus time to compose in this tuning.
> 
>   Â
> 
>   I would understand Smith's sentence, as he speaks of "fine" music, as
>   expressing rather his personal appreciation. But there are ways to know
>   how Denis Gaultier was appreciated by his contemporaries.
>   1) Both Gaultiers are the only identified composers whose works were
>   copied, in addition to their own works, by three lutenists-composers
>   whose hand may be identified with confidence in lute manuscripts:
>   Charles Mouton, Henry de Launay and Pierre Dubut le fils (the latter
>   has also copied works by his father) ; Julien Blouin, by whom only a
>   few works are known and who on the contrary copied works by a greater
>   number of composers, made a complete copy of the "Pieces de luth" in
>   one of his manuscripts, adding to them pieces by various other
>   composers.
>   2) But the manuscript "La rhétorique des dieux" has been designed as
>   "un assemblage des plus belles pièces de luth de l'illustre Denis
>   Gaultier", even if at least one piece by Ennemond seems to have slipped
>   among them (there is no proof that Denis had any role in the choice of
>   the pieces).
> 
>   3) Likewise, Pierre Baudouin de Montarcis (the one mentioned in the
>   preface of the Livre de tablature) refers to Denis as "l'Orfée de
>   notre siecle", but ignores Ennemond (see
>   [2]http://msl.cat/revista/56%20Goy.pdf, pp. 87-92).
>   4) Three tombeaux were dedicated to Denis in addition to the one he
>   wrote for himself: by Jacques Gallot, Charles Mouton and a lost one by
>   his pupil Marianne Plantier. No tombeau appears to have been dedicated
>   to Old Gaultier.
> 
>   Â
> 
>   Thus, it would seem that on one hand, the output of Ennemond and Denis
>   may have been more or less considered as a whole by 17th-century
>   lutenists, as their pieces are often mingled in the manuscripts, often
>   without a clear attribution to either of them, or with conflicting
>   attributions, and on the other hand, there really was a high regard for
>   Denis in the second half of the century, maybe from people who knew him
>   and had heard him in person.
> 
>   Â
> 
>   Best wishes,
> 
>   Â
> 
>   François-Pierre Goy
> 
>   Â
> 
>   Â
> 
>   02.12.2017, 23:39, "G. C." :
> 
> Â Â Â Claude Chauvel:
> Â Â Â We may also recall the anecdote told by burlesque D'Assoucy,
> in which
> Â Â Â old Gaultier was given a good thrashing by the people of his
> village
> Â Â Â who, "catching sight of the dusky face of this blackamoor" ,
> mistook
> Â

[LUTE] Re: Caravaggio

2019-03-04 Thread Alain Veylit 
And then, there is Django Reinhardt... one big exception to the rules of 
guitar playing. Experimenting with various techniques has probably 
always been a popular habit among musicians, whether by choice or force.


On 3/4/19 5:39 AM, Rainer wrote:

Ooops, I mixed up 2nd and 3rd finger.

Sorry :)

Rainer



On 04.03.2019 13:23, Rainer wrote:

On 04.03.2019 11:11, b...@symbol4.de wrote:

    Dear all,

    Gerle (Musica teusch, Nürnberg 1532) says explicitely: set the 
little
    and ring fingers of the right hand on the belly, not on the rose 
but a

    little behind it.


This refers to the first exercises/pieces with two voices only:

  Nym  den lautten kragen in die lincken handt vnd setz an der 
rechten handt

den  kleyn finger/  Vnd den goldfinger auff  die deck/  nit auff  den
stern /  ein  wenig  dar hindther...

However, regarding pieces with three voices he writes:

So folgen etliche stückleyn hernach mit dreyen stymen/die magstu auch 
lernen/
und mustu den mittel finger an der rechten handt zu der dritten stym 
gebrauchen.


which, of course, implies that the third finger does not rest on the 
belly.


Rainer






    Kind  regards
    Bernd
    Gesendet: Montag, 04. März 2019 um 09:01 Uhr
    Von: "Martyn Hodgson" 
    An: "Edward C. Yong" , "Lisa Sass @muse"
    
    Cc: "Lute List" 
    Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Caravaggio
    There's no reason why the third finger should not be held on the 
belly

    - rather than the more conventional fourth. Indeed, some historical
    players (Kapsberger comes to mind) are recorded as only plucking 
with

    the thumb, first and second fingers.
    Further, it's not wholly unlikely that the painting shows a 
model who

    may not have had much, if any, real instruction on how to play the
    instrument - how many modern depictions of lutes (in ads etc) 
depict

    unlikely postures which are accepted by the general public (eg a
    current UK Building society TV ad) and even, amazingly, a print 
ad for
    a manufacturer of thirteen course and other lutes being played 
in what

    appears to be an unconventional manner
    MH
    On Saturday, 2 March 2019, 04:39:51 GMT, Lisa Sass @muse
     wrote:
    You're welcome! Towards the end, he gets into finger position. 
Plus,

    link to a followup article from ~2005 is at the very bottom.
    Sent from my TRS-80
    > On Mar 1, 2019, at 22:09, Edward C. Yong 
<[1]edward.y...@gmail.com>

    wrote:
    >
    > Thank you! This may well have been it!
    >
    >> On 2 Mar 2019, at 12:02 PM, Lisa Sass @muse
    <[2]muse314...@gmail.com> wrote:
    >>
    >> Was it David Van
    >> Edwards? 
[1][3][1]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm

    >>
    >> ~Lisa Sass
    >> Sent from my TRS-80
    >> On Mar 1, 2019, at 21:47, Edward C. Yong
    <[2][4]edward.y...@gmail.com>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >> Hi everyone,
    >> over a decade ago, I recall attending one of the talks at the UK
    Lute
    >> Society's meetings where the speaker talked about paintings 
of lute

    >> players, and said he felt a certain painting (Caravaggio?) was
    likely a
    >> fake on account of the positioning of the fingers. It was 
quite a

    >> compelling argument at the time.
    >> Does anyone recall who the talk was by and if a transcript is
    >> available?
    >> Thanks in advance!
    >> Edward
    >> To get on or off this list see list information at
    >> [3][5][2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
    >>
    >> --
    >>
    >> References
    >>
    >> 1. [6][3]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
    >> 2. mailto:[7]edward.y...@gmail.com
    >> 3. [8][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
    >>
    >
    >
    --
    References
    1. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com
    2. mailto:muse314...@gmail.com
    3. [5]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
    4. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com
    5. [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
    6. [7]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
    7. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com
    8. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

References

    1. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
    2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
    3. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
    4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
    5. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
    6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
    7. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
    8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Caravaggio

2019-03-04 Thread Rainer 

Ooops, I mixed up 2nd and 3rd finger.

Sorry :)

Rainer



On 04.03.2019 13:23, Rainer wrote:

On 04.03.2019 11:11, b...@symbol4.de wrote:

    Dear all,

    Gerle (Musica teusch, Nürnberg 1532) says explicitely: set the little
    and ring fingers of the right hand on the belly, not on the rose but a
    little behind it.


This refers to the first exercises/pieces with two voices only:

  Nym  den lautten kragen in die lincken handt vnd setz an der rechten handt
den  kleyn finger/  Vnd den goldfinger auff  die deck/  nit auff  den
stern /  ein  wenig  dar hindther...

However, regarding pieces with three voices he writes:

So folgen etliche stückleyn hernach mit dreyen stymen/die magstu auch lernen/
und mustu den mittel finger an der rechten handt zu der dritten stym gebrauchen.

which, of course, implies that the third finger does not rest on the belly.

Rainer






    Kind  regards
    Bernd
    Gesendet: Montag, 04. März 2019 um 09:01 Uhr
    Von: "Martyn Hodgson" 
    An: "Edward C. Yong" , "Lisa Sass @muse"
    
    Cc: "Lute List" 
    Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Caravaggio
    There's no reason why the third finger should not be held on the belly
    - rather than the more conventional fourth. Indeed, some historical
    players (Kapsberger comes to mind) are recorded as only plucking with
    the thumb, first and second fingers.
    Further, it's not wholly unlikely that the painting shows a model who
    may not have had much, if any, real instruction on how to play the
    instrument - how many modern depictions of lutes (in ads etc) depict
    unlikely postures which are accepted by the general public (eg a
    current UK Building society TV ad) and even, amazingly, a print ad for
    a manufacturer of thirteen course and other lutes being played in what
    appears to be an unconventional manner
    MH
    On Saturday, 2 March 2019, 04:39:51 GMT, Lisa Sass @muse
     wrote:
    You're welcome! Towards the end, he gets into finger position. Plus,
    link to a followup article from ~2005 is at the very bottom.
    Sent from my TRS-80
    > On Mar 1, 2019, at 22:09, Edward C. Yong <[1]edward.y...@gmail.com>
    wrote:
    >
    > Thank you! This may well have been it!
    >
    >> On 2 Mar 2019, at 12:02 PM, Lisa Sass @muse
    <[2]muse314...@gmail.com> wrote:
    >>
    >> Was it David Van
    >> Edwards? [1][3][1]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
    >>
    >> ~Lisa Sass
    >> Sent from my TRS-80
    >> On Mar 1, 2019, at 21:47, Edward C. Yong
    <[2][4]edward.y...@gmail.com>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >> Hi everyone,
    >> over a decade ago, I recall attending one of the talks at the UK
    Lute
    >> Society's meetings where the speaker talked about paintings of lute
    >> players, and said he felt a certain painting (Caravaggio?) was
    likely a
    >> fake on account of the positioning of the fingers. It was quite a
    >> compelling argument at the time.
    >> Does anyone recall who the talk was by and if a transcript is
    >> available?
    >> Thanks in advance!
    >> Edward
    >> To get on or off this list see list information at
    >> [3][5][2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
    >>
    >> --
    >>
    >> References
    >>
    >> 1. [6][3]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
    >> 2. mailto:[7]edward.y...@gmail.com
    >> 3. [8][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
    >>
    >
    >
    --
    References
    1. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com
    2. mailto:muse314...@gmail.com
    3. [5]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
    4. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com
    5. [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
    6. [7]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
    7. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com
    8. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

References

    1. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
    2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
    3. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
    4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
    5. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
    6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
    7. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
    8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Caravaggio

2019-03-04 Thread Rainer 

On 04.03.2019 11:11, b...@symbol4.de wrote:

Dear all,

Gerle (Musica teusch, Nürnberg 1532) says explicitely: set the little
and ring fingers of the right hand on the belly, not on the rose but a
little behind it.


This refers to the first exercises/pieces with two voices only:

 Nym  den lautten kragen in die lincken handt vnd setz an der rechten handt
den  kleyn finger/  Vnd den goldfinger auff  die deck/  nit auff  den
stern /  ein  wenig  dar hindther...

However, regarding pieces with three voices he writes:

So folgen etliche stückleyn hernach mit dreyen stymen/die magstu auch lernen/
und mustu den mittel finger an der rechten handt zu der dritten stym gebrauchen.

which, of course, implies that the third finger does not rest on the belly.

Rainer






Kind  regards
Bernd
Gesendet: Montag, 04. März 2019 um 09:01 Uhr
Von: "Martyn Hodgson" 
An: "Edward C. Yong" , "Lisa Sass @muse"

Cc: "Lute List" 
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Caravaggio
There's no reason why the third finger should not be held on the belly
- rather than the more conventional fourth. Indeed, some historical
players (Kapsberger comes to mind) are recorded as only plucking with
the thumb, first and second fingers.
Further, it's not wholly unlikely that the painting shows a model who
may not have had much, if any, real instruction on how to play the
instrument - how many modern depictions of lutes (in ads etc) depict
unlikely postures which are accepted by the general public (eg a
current UK Building society TV ad) and even, amazingly, a print ad for
a manufacturer of thirteen course and other lutes being played in what
appears to be an unconventional manner
MH
On Saturday, 2 March 2019, 04:39:51 GMT, Lisa Sass @muse
 wrote:
You're welcome! Towards the end, he gets into finger position. Plus,
link to a followup article from ~2005 is at the very bottom.
Sent from my TRS-80
> On Mar 1, 2019, at 22:09, Edward C. Yong <[1]edward.y...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Thank you! This may well have been it!
>
>> On 2 Mar 2019, at 12:02 PM, Lisa Sass @muse
<[2]muse314...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Was it David Van
>> Edwards? [1][3][1]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
>>
>> ~Lisa Sass
>> Sent from my TRS-80
>> On Mar 1, 2019, at 21:47, Edward C. Yong
<[2][4]edward.y...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi everyone,
>> over a decade ago, I recall attending one of the talks at the UK
Lute
>> Society's meetings where the speaker talked about paintings of lute
>> players, and said he felt a certain painting (Caravaggio?) was
likely a
>> fake on account of the positioning of the fingers. It was quite a
>> compelling argument at the time.
>> Does anyone recall who the talk was by and if a transcript is
>> available?
>> Thanks in advance!
>> Edward
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> [3][5][2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>> --
>>
>> References
>>
>> 1. [6][3]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
>> 2. mailto:[7]edward.y...@gmail.com
>> 3. [8][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>
>
--
References
1. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com
2. mailto:muse314...@gmail.com
3. [5]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
4. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com
5. [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
6. [7]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
7. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com
8. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

References

1. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
3. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
5. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
7. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Caravaggio

2019-03-04 Thread Roman Turovsky 

Nothing to do with the model.
Caravaggio himself was documented to have been a competent plucker,
so he absolutely knew how to depict them fingers in correct positions.
David van Edwards is "right on the money".
RT


On 3/4/2019 3:01 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

There's no reason why the third finger should not be held on the belly
- rather than the more conventional fourth.  Indeed, some historical
players (Kapsberger comes to mind) are recorded as only plucking with
the thumb, first and second fingers.
Further, it's not wholly unlikely that the painting shows a model who
may not have had much, if any, real instruction on how to play the
instrument -  how many modern depictions of lutes (in ads etc) depict
unlikely postures which are accepted by the general public (eg a
current UK Building society TV ad)  and even, amazingly, a print ad for
a manufacturer of thirteen course and other lutes being played in what
appears to be an unconventional manner
MH

On Saturday, 2 March 2019, 04:39:51 GMT, Lisa Sass @muse
 wrote:
You're welcome! Towards the end, he gets into finger position. Plus,
link to a followup article from ~2005 is at the very bottom.
Sent from my TRS-80
> On Mar 1, 2019, at 22:09, Edward C. Yong <[1]edward.y...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Thank you! This may well have been it!
>
>> On 2 Mar 2019, at 12:02 PM, Lisa Sass @muse
<[2]muse314...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>  Was it David Van
>>  Edwards? [1][3]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
>>
>>  ~Lisa Sass
>>  Sent from my TRS-80
>>  On Mar 1, 2019, at 21:47, Edward C. Yong
<[2][4]edward.y...@gmail.com>
>>  wrote:
>>
>>  Hi everyone,
>>  over a decade ago, I recall attending one of the talks at the UK
Lute
>>  Society's meetings where the speaker talked about paintings of lute
>>  players, and said he felt a certain painting (Caravaggio?) was
likely a
>>  fake on account of the positioning of the fingers. It was quite a
>>  compelling argument at the time.
>>  Does anyone recall who the talk was by and if a transcript is
>>  available?
>>  Thanks in advance!
>>  Edward
>>  To get on or off this list see list information at
>>  [3][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>>  --
>>
>> References
>>
>>  1. [6]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
>>  2. mailto:[7]edward.y...@gmail.com
>>  3. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>
>

--

References

1. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com
2. mailto:muse314...@gmail.com
3. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
4. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com
5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
6. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
7. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com
8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Caravaggio

2019-03-04 Thread b...@symbol4.de 
   Dear all,

   Gerle (Musica teusch, Nürnberg 1532) says explicitely: set the little
   and ring fingers of the right hand on the belly, not on the rose but a
   little behind it.

   Kind  regards
   Bernd
   Gesendet: Montag, 04. März 2019 um 09:01 Uhr
   Von: "Martyn Hodgson" 
   An: "Edward C. Yong" , "Lisa Sass @muse"
   
   Cc: "Lute List" 
   Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Caravaggio
   There's no reason why the third finger should not be held on the belly
   - rather than the more conventional fourth. Indeed, some historical
   players (Kapsberger comes to mind) are recorded as only plucking with
   the thumb, first and second fingers.
   Further, it's not wholly unlikely that the painting shows a model who
   may not have had much, if any, real instruction on how to play the
   instrument - how many modern depictions of lutes (in ads etc) depict
   unlikely postures which are accepted by the general public (eg a
   current UK Building society TV ad) and even, amazingly, a print ad for
   a manufacturer of thirteen course and other lutes being played in what
   appears to be an unconventional manner
   MH
   On Saturday, 2 March 2019, 04:39:51 GMT, Lisa Sass @muse
wrote:
   You're welcome! Towards the end, he gets into finger position. Plus,
   link to a followup article from ~2005 is at the very bottom.
   Sent from my TRS-80
   > On Mar 1, 2019, at 22:09, Edward C. Yong <[1]edward.y...@gmail.com>
   wrote:
   >
   > Thank you! This may well have been it!
   >
   >> On 2 Mar 2019, at 12:02 PM, Lisa Sass @muse
   <[2]muse314...@gmail.com> wrote:
   >>
   >> Was it David Van
   >> Edwards? [1][3][1]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
   >>
   >> ~Lisa Sass
   >> Sent from my TRS-80
   >> On Mar 1, 2019, at 21:47, Edward C. Yong
   <[2][4]edward.y...@gmail.com>
   >> wrote:
   >>
   >> Hi everyone,
   >> over a decade ago, I recall attending one of the talks at the UK
   Lute
   >> Society's meetings where the speaker talked about paintings of lute
   >> players, and said he felt a certain painting (Caravaggio?) was
   likely a
   >> fake on account of the positioning of the fingers. It was quite a
   >> compelling argument at the time.
   >> Does anyone recall who the talk was by and if a transcript is
   >> available?
   >> Thanks in advance!
   >> Edward
   >> To get on or off this list see list information at
   >> [3][5][2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >>
   >> --
   >>
   >> References
   >>
   >> 1. [6][3]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
   >> 2. mailto:[7]edward.y...@gmail.com
   >> 3. [8][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >>
   >
   >
   --
   References
   1. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com
   2. mailto:muse314...@gmail.com
   3. [5]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
   4. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com
   5. [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   6. [7]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
   7. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com
   8. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

References

   1. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   3. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   5. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   7. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
   8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Caravaggio

2019-03-04 Thread Martyn Hodgson 
   There's no reason why the third finger should not be held on the belly
   - rather than the more conventional fourth.  Indeed, some historical
   players (Kapsberger comes to mind) are recorded as only plucking with
   the thumb, first and second fingers.
   Further, it's not wholly unlikely that the painting shows a model who
   may not have had much, if any, real instruction on how to play the
   instrument -  how many modern depictions of lutes (in ads etc) depict
   unlikely postures which are accepted by the general public (eg a
   current UK Building society TV ad)  and even, amazingly, a print ad for
   a manufacturer of thirteen course and other lutes being played in what
   appears to be an unconventional manner
   MH

   On Saturday, 2 March 2019, 04:39:51 GMT, Lisa Sass @muse
wrote:
   You're welcome! Towards the end, he gets into finger position. Plus,
   link to a followup article from ~2005 is at the very bottom.
   Sent from my TRS-80
   > On Mar 1, 2019, at 22:09, Edward C. Yong <[1]edward.y...@gmail.com>
   wrote:
   >
   > Thank you! This may well have been it!
   >
   >> On 2 Mar 2019, at 12:02 PM, Lisa Sass @muse
   <[2]muse314...@gmail.com> wrote:
   >>
   >>  Was it David Van
   >>  Edwards? [1][3]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
   >>
   >>  ~Lisa Sass
   >>  Sent from my TRS-80
   >>  On Mar 1, 2019, at 21:47, Edward C. Yong
   <[2][4]edward.y...@gmail.com>
   >>  wrote:
   >>
   >>  Hi everyone,
   >>  over a decade ago, I recall attending one of the talks at the UK
   Lute
   >>  Society's meetings where the speaker talked about paintings of lute
   >>  players, and said he felt a certain painting (Caravaggio?) was
   likely a
   >>  fake on account of the positioning of the fingers. It was quite a
   >>  compelling argument at the time.
   >>  Does anyone recall who the talk was by and if a transcript is
   >>  available?
   >>  Thanks in advance!
   >>  Edward
   >>  To get on or off this list see list information at
   >>  [3][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >>
   >>  --
   >>
   >> References
   >>
   >>  1. [6]http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
   >>  2. mailto:[7]edward.y...@gmail.com
   >>  3. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >>
   >
   >

   --

References

   1. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com
   2. mailto:muse314...@gmail.com
   3. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
   4. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   6. http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/jun99/month.htm
   7. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com
   8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html