[LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky
Sorry: 'original', naturally! Gesendet von meinem BlackBerry 10-Smartphone. Originalnachricht Von: jo.lued...@t-online.de Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. März 2019 07:49 An: Lute net Antwort an: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky Dear Alan, dear Jurgen, There is something to that effect in all 'oroginal' versions of Besard's instructions, that is: 1603 and 1617. I do not remember if ye text englished contains the passage... Best Joachim Originalnachricht Von: Alain Veylit Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. März 2019 04:32 Antwort an: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu Cc: Lute net Betreff: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky Jurgen, It's been a while and I was quoting from memory... but I am sure I saw it somewhere - perhaps the instructions translated in English in the Varietie of Lute Lessons? Or maybe the use of dots in Thesaurus Harmonicus ... Alain On 3/4/19 11:11 PM, Jurgen Frenz wrote: > It would be totally excellent if you'd find out where Besard made that > suggestion. > Thanks, > jurgen > > > -- > “There is a voice that doesn’t use words. Listen.” > > Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi > > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐. > On Tuesday, March 5, 2019 10:40 AM, Alain Veylit > wrote: > >> That's odd because I remember O'Dette's advice for the left-hand pinky: >> plant it vertically on the string instead of laying it flat - which >> requires more effort. That should mean his left-hand little finger can >> bend... Not a conclusive proof for the right hand little finger but ... >> For Renaissance lute, if I am not mistaken, the right-hand little finger >> is supposed to be parallel to the sound board, just lightly brushing on >> it, and it should remain extended. >> >> Anybody with a good explanation as to how additional basses would alter >> the right hand position? If I recall, Besard still argued for a mixed >> technique, thumb-under for fast runs and thumb over for whatever else >> (chords). I think it is logical that increasing dedication of the thumb >> to the bass strings does account for the shift in right-hand position, >> and when you think about it, it is not a small revolution in music >> history... >> >> On 3/4/19 7:12 PM, Richard Brook wrote: >> >>> Heard via the late great Pat OBrien Paul O’Dette couldn’t bend that finger >>> down by itself. Though I think Pat said in my case the fault was in my >>> head, not in the stars. >>> D ick Brook >>> On Mar 4, 2019, at 6:58 PM, Alain Veylit al...@musickshandmade.com wrote: Good one Rainer - Anybody remembers the title of that American series from the 60s-70s where aliens live among us in disguise, and the only sure way to identify them is that they cannot bend their little finger? Worth mentioning also about right-hand technique, Jimmy Hendrix playing with his teeth - frustrated leftie, you think? On 3/4/19 12:19 PM, Rainer wrote: > On 04.03.2019 17:11, Alain Veylit wrote: > >> And then, there is Django Reinhardt... one big exception to the rules of >> guitar playing. Experimenting with various techniques has probably >> always been a popular habit among musicians, whether by choice or force. > And Aguado used the 4th finger of the right hand. Perhaps he was an alien > :) > Rainer > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky
Dear Alan, dear Jurgen, There is something to that effect in all 'oroginal' versions of Besard's instructions, that is: 1603 and 1617. I do not remember if ye text englished contains the passage... Best Joachim Originalnachricht Von: Alain Veylit Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. März 2019 04:32 Antwort an: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu Cc: Lute net Betreff: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky Jurgen, It's been a while and I was quoting from memory... but I am sure I saw it somewhere - perhaps the instructions translated in English in the Varietie of Lute Lessons? Or maybe the use of dots in Thesaurus Harmonicus ... Alain On 3/4/19 11:11 PM, Jurgen Frenz wrote: > It would be totally excellent if you'd find out where Besard made that > suggestion. > Thanks, > jurgen > > > -- > “There is a voice that doesn’t use words. Listen.” > > Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi > > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐. > On Tuesday, March 5, 2019 10:40 AM, Alain Veylit > wrote: > >> That's odd because I remember O'Dette's advice for the left-hand pinky: >> plant it vertically on the string instead of laying it flat - which >> requires more effort. That should mean his left-hand little finger can >> bend... Not a conclusive proof for the right hand little finger but ... >> For Renaissance lute, if I am not mistaken, the right-hand little finger >> is supposed to be parallel to the sound board, just lightly brushing on >> it, and it should remain extended. >> >> Anybody with a good explanation as to how additional basses would alter >> the right hand position? If I recall, Besard still argued for a mixed >> technique, thumb-under for fast runs and thumb over for whatever else >> (chords). I think it is logical that increasing dedication of the thumb >> to the bass strings does account for the shift in right-hand position, >> and when you think about it, it is not a small revolution in music >> history... >> >> On 3/4/19 7:12 PM, Richard Brook wrote: >> >>> Heard via the late great Pat OBrien Paul O’Dette couldn’t bend that finger >>> down by itself. Though I think Pat said in my case the fault was in my >>> head, not in the stars. >>> D ick Brook >>> On Mar 4, 2019, at 6:58 PM, Alain Veylit al...@musickshandmade.com wrote: Good one Rainer - Anybody remembers the title of that American series from the 60s-70s where aliens live among us in disguise, and the only sure way to identify them is that they cannot bend their little finger? Worth mentioning also about right-hand technique, Jimmy Hendrix playing with his teeth - frustrated leftie, you think? On 3/4/19 12:19 PM, Rainer wrote: > On 04.03.2019 17:11, Alain Veylit wrote: > >> And then, there is Django Reinhardt... one big exception to the rules of >> guitar playing. Experimenting with various techniques has probably >> always been a popular habit among musicians, whether by choice or force. > And Aguado used the 4th finger of the right hand. Perhaps he was an alien > :) > Rainer > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky
Jurgen, It's been a while and I was quoting from memory... but I am sure I saw it somewhere - perhaps the instructions translated in English in the Varietie of Lute Lessons? Or maybe the use of dots in Thesaurus Harmonicus ... Alain On 3/4/19 11:11 PM, Jurgen Frenz wrote: It would be totally excellent if you'd find out where Besard made that suggestion. Thanks, jurgen -- “There is a voice that doesn’t use words. Listen.” Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐. On Tuesday, March 5, 2019 10:40 AM, Alain Veylit wrote: That's odd because I remember O'Dette's advice for the left-hand pinky: plant it vertically on the string instead of laying it flat - which requires more effort. That should mean his left-hand little finger can bend... Not a conclusive proof for the right hand little finger but ... For Renaissance lute, if I am not mistaken, the right-hand little finger is supposed to be parallel to the sound board, just lightly brushing on it, and it should remain extended. Anybody with a good explanation as to how additional basses would alter the right hand position? If I recall, Besard still argued for a mixed technique, thumb-under for fast runs and thumb over for whatever else (chords). I think it is logical that increasing dedication of the thumb to the bass strings does account for the shift in right-hand position, and when you think about it, it is not a small revolution in music history... On 3/4/19 7:12 PM, Richard Brook wrote: Heard via the late great Pat OBrien Paul O’Dette couldn’t bend that finger down by itself. Though I think Pat said in my case the fault was in my head, not in the stars. D ick Brook On Mar 4, 2019, at 6:58 PM, Alain Veylit al...@musickshandmade.com wrote: Good one Rainer - Anybody remembers the title of that American series from the 60s-70s where aliens live among us in disguise, and the only sure way to identify them is that they cannot bend their little finger? Worth mentioning also about right-hand technique, Jimmy Hendrix playing with his teeth - frustrated leftie, you think? On 3/4/19 12:19 PM, Rainer wrote: On 04.03.2019 17:11, Alain Veylit wrote: And then, there is Django Reinhardt... one big exception to the rules of guitar playing. Experimenting with various techniques has probably always been a popular habit among musicians, whether by choice or force. And Aguado used the 4th finger of the right hand. Perhaps he was an alien :) Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tip - Lute Scribe character / font question
Thank you for the clarification - I understand now. J -- “There is a voice that doesn’t use words. Listen.” Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Tuesday, March 5, 2019 3:51 PM, Luke Emmet wrote: > Hi Jurgen > > LuteScribe, and the underlying TAB text format that it builds on are not > exactly WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get), but rather WYSIWYM - > what you see is what you meant. In essence they provide a series of > formatting commands to the underlying TAB program which typesets the > output result. > > There are a number of visual limitations of underlying TAB text format > which LuteScribe seeks to address, namely that a) is rotated and upside > down compared to the actual tabulature b) due to it being a text format > notes on the same course do not always line up visually (e.g. if there > are fingerings, dotted rhythms etc) and c) it uses plain text so you > have to mentally translate common symbols such as the flags. So one of > the main aspects of LuteScribe is that it provides a visual editor that > lets you edit the content and at the same time you can much more easily > play and understand the edited content as a lutenist. When the print > preview output is created, LuteScribe builds the underlying TAB text > format and TAB creates the pretty output. > > In the editor the fonts used by LuteScribe are based - and used with > permission - on a set of fonts created by Steve Horn for Sibelius. When > you view the "print preview" output, the fonts used are those that are > provided by TAB. You can change the fonts of the output in LuteScribe > via the Options or Headers section. > > So there are two sets of fonts being used, one for editing and then > those of TAB. For the PDF output or any printouts you will get the TAB ones. > > Hope this helps to explain what is going on. > > There is a new version of LuteScribe coming out soon that has some more > usability enhancements, and it also supports playback using TAB's midi > output facility. I will make an announcement on the list in the coming days. > > Best Wishes > > - Luke > > On 05-Mar-2019 07:09, Jurgen Frenz wrote: > > > > Oops - I REALLY was ignorant about the image issue. Here is a link to > > google docs, I inserted the screen shots into a text file. > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s4MoYEk4QArbZBENI9AWZ_GJDGKms1VYFFZt_LTsp7E/edit?usp=sharing > > Best > > Jurgen > > > > “There is a voice that doesn’t use words. Listen.” > > Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi > > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ > > On Tuesday, March 5, 2019 9:47 AM, wayne lutewst...@cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: > > > > > Hi Lute People and Jurgen - > > > Looks like you don’t know that the lute list does not like pictures, > > > which in this case is a shame. > > > Perhaps you could post them on a web site or google documents. They show > > > characters, > > > especially the letter e, in lute-scribe input format and as output by my > > > “tab” programt. Jurgen says . . . > > > Hello there, > > > I am asking about the "e" in lute scribe - in the editor the character > > > appears as a "normal" minuscule e whereas in print the character has > > > changed to a tilted small capital "E" as documented in the attached > > > screenshots - actually I very much like that capital E but I cannot find > > > it in the font. How does this miracle happen? > > > Thanks for a hint, > > > Jurgen > > > you can email Jurgen at eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com > > > mailto:eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com and you can read about my tab > > > program at https://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute/AboutTab.html > > > Wayne > > > > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > > From: Jurgen Frenz eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com > > > > Subject: [LUTE] Lute Scribe character / font question > > > > Date: March 4, 2019 at 9:14:51 PM EST > > > > To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > > > Reply-To: Jurgen Frenz eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com > > > > ogѕхэ7uЗ§oMЙoVкуmКпо_зЎЕзpЈзЇЕ<ЉzзБЗњej)м > > > > Њьz > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > -- > > -- > > Orlando Lutes > http://www.orlando-lutes.com
[LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky
When I first watched the film Gattaca a pianist played a well known piece (was it an Impromptu by Schubert?) I suddenly noticed some strange additional notes and told my girl friend that something was weird here. Of course, you need twelve fingers for this "version" of the piece. Shaking hands with this guy probably would be a "strange experience" :) Rainer PS Some years ago I had two Maine Coon cats and I believe Maine Coons with 6 toes are a well known mutation. Kischi and Schnuddel were wonderful cats but they had 5 toes only :) On 05.03.2019 18:04, howard posner wrote: On Mar 5, 2019, at 2:09 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote: Pat actually had me put masking tape on my pinky early on, to prevent it from bending. Yes, shaking hands with Roman was always a strange experience for that reason. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky
Due to my Dupuytrens contracture (makes the ring and pinky fold in fixedly), I have a permanent, but surgically correctible (trying to avoid this) bend to my right pinky (left was worse but successfully corrected years ago). What works for me is resting the pinky on its side for my thumb-in playing. Which seems to be what Andrea Damiani suggests in his tutor--so that you're looking into the cupped right hand. Leonard Williams -Original Message- From: Richard Brook To: howard posner Cc: Lute net Sent: Tue, Mar 5, 2019 10:17 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky Actually, and likely off subject, I was thinking of the right hand pinky, and (not on the lute) whether you could hold your fingers up and bend just the pinky into the palm. I can't without dragging down the ring finger, I think Pat said Paul couldn't do it. But maybe the test was with the left hand. I do recall Paul saying how relaxation was the key to not letting your left pinky stick out when playing, and that works. Dick > On Mar 4, 2019, at 11:26 PM, howard posner <[1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com> wrote: > > >> On Mar 4, 2019, at 7:12 PM, Richard Brook <[2]richa...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: >> >> Heard via the late great Pat OBrien Paul O'Dette couldn't bend that finger down by itself. > > To be clear, in Paul's younger days he had the not-uncommon problem of having the left-hand pinky stick up when it wasn't in use, which kept the fingertip inefficiently far away from the fingerboard. He kept being told, by people who hadn't thought much about it, that the solution was to concentrate really hard on keeping it curved, advice which would have done more harm than good if he paid attention to it. The problem is caused by too much tension in the left hand, and goes away when the hand is relaxed, which is what Paul learned from Pat. Paul mentioned this in a master class (probably many times). I never heard Pat talk about it, though I'm sure he did. > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com 2. mailto:richa...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky
> On Mar 5, 2019, at 2:09 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote: > > Pat actually had me put masking tape on my pinky early on, > to prevent it from bending. Yes, shaking hands with Roman was always a strange experience for that reason. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky
Thumb and Pinky, that's the sign of a good Boy Scout. On 3/5/2019 10:16 AM, Richard Brook wrote: Actually, and likely off subject, I was thinking of the right hand pinky, and (n ot on the lute) whether you could hold your fingers up and bend just the pinky i nto the palm. I can't without dragging down the ring finger, I think Pat said Paul couldn't do it. But maybe the test was with the left hand. I do recall Paul saying how relaxation was the key to not letting your left pin ky stick out when playing, and that works. Dick On Mar 4, 2019, at 11:26 PM, howard posner [1] wrote: On Mar 4, 2019, at 7:12 PM, Richard Brook [2] wrote: Heard via the late great Pat OBrien Paul O'Dette couldn't bend that finger down by itself. To be clear, in Paul's younger days he had the not-uncommon problem of having th e left-hand pinky stick up when it wasn't in use, which kept the fingertip ineff iciently far away from the fingerboard. He kept being told, by people who hadn' t thought much about it, that the solution was to concentrate really hard on kee ping it curved, advice which would have done more harm than good if he paid atte ntion to it. The problem is caused by too much tension in the left hand, and go es away when the hand is relaxed, which is what Paul learned from Pat. Paul men tioned this in a master class (probably many times). I never heard Pat talk abo ut it, though I'm sure he did. To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com 2. mailto:richa...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky
Actually, and likely off subject, I was thinking of the right hand pinky, and (not on the lute) whether you could hold your fingers up and bend just the pinky into the palm. I can’t without dragging down the ring finger, I think Pat said Paul couldn’t do it. But maybe the test was with the left hand. I do recall Paul saying how relaxation was the key to not letting your left pinky stick out when playing, and that works. Dick > On Mar 4, 2019, at 11:26 PM, howard posner wrote: > > >> On Mar 4, 2019, at 7:12 PM, Richard Brook wrote: >> >> Heard via the late great Pat OBrien Paul O’Dette couldn’t bend that finger >> down by itself. > > To be clear, in Paul’s younger days he had the not-uncommon problem of having > the left-hand pinky stick up when it wasn’t in use, which kept the fingertip > inefficiently far away from the fingerboard. He kept being told, by people > who hadn’t thought much about it, that the solution was to concentrate really > hard on keeping it curved, advice which would have done more harm than good > if he paid attention to it. The problem is caused by too much tension in the > left hand, and goes away when the hand is relaxed, which is what Paul learned > from Pat. Paul mentioned this in a master class (probably many times). I > never heard Pat talk about it, though I’m sure he did. > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky
According to Pat O'Brien one should never bend the right pinky, as that locks the rest of the hand and particularly - the elbow. Pat actually had me put masking tape on my pinky early on, to prevent it from bending. RT On 3/5/2019 2:11 AM, Jurgen Frenz wrote: It would be totally excellent if you'd find out where Besard made that suggestion. Thanks, jurgen -- “There is a voice that doesn’t use words. Listen.” Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Tuesday, March 5, 2019 10:40 AM, Alain Veylit wrote: That's odd because I remember O'Dette's advice for the left-hand pinky: plant it vertically on the string instead of laying it flat - which requires more effort. That should mean his left-hand little finger can bend... Not a conclusive proof for the right hand little finger but ... For Renaissance lute, if I am not mistaken, the right-hand little finger is supposed to be parallel to the sound board, just lightly brushing on it, and it should remain extended. Anybody with a good explanation as to how additional basses would alter the right hand position? If I recall, Besard still argued for a mixed technique, thumb-under for fast runs and thumb over for whatever else (chords). I think it is logical that increasing dedication of the thumb to the bass strings does account for the shift in right-hand position, and when you think about it, it is not a small revolution in music history... On 3/4/19 7:12 PM, Richard Brook wrote: Heard via the late great Pat OBrien Paul O’Dette couldn’t bend that finger down by itself. Though I think Pat said in my case the fault was in my head, not in the stars. D ick Brook On Mar 4, 2019, at 6:58 PM, Alain Veylit al...@musickshandmade.com wrote: Good one Rainer - Anybody remembers the title of that American series from the 60s-70s where aliens live among us in disguise, and the only sure way to identify them is that they cannot bend their little finger? Worth mentioning also about right-hand technique, Jimmy Hendrix playing with his teeth - frustrated leftie, you think? On 3/4/19 12:19 PM, Rainer wrote: On 04.03.2019 17:11, Alain Veylit wrote: And then, there is Django Reinhardt... one big exception to the rules of guitar playing. Experimenting with various techniques has probably always been a popular habit among musicians, whether by choice or force. And Aguado used the 4th finger of the right hand. Perhaps he was an alien :) Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tip - Lute Scribe character / font question
Hi Jurgen LuteScribe, and the underlying TAB text format that it builds on are not exactly WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get), but rather WYSIWYM - what you see is what you meant. In essence they provide a series of formatting commands to the underlying TAB program which typesets the output result. There are a number of visual limitations of underlying TAB text format which LuteScribe seeks to address, namely that a) is rotated and upside down compared to the actual tabulature b) due to it being a text format notes on the same course do not always line up visually (e.g. if there are fingerings, dotted rhythms etc) and c) it uses plain text so you have to mentally translate common symbols such as the flags. So one of the main aspects of LuteScribe is that it provides a visual editor that lets you edit the content and at the same time you can much more easily play and understand the edited content *as a lutenist*. When the print preview output is created, LuteScribe builds the underlying TAB text format and TAB creates the pretty output. In the editor the fonts used by LuteScribe are based - and used with permission - on a set of fonts created by Steve Horn for Sibelius. When you view the "print preview" output, the fonts used are those that are provided by TAB. You can change the fonts of the output in LuteScribe via the Options or Headers section. So there are two sets of fonts being used, one for editing and then those of TAB. For the PDF output or any printouts you will get the TAB ones. Hope this helps to explain what is going on. There is a new version of LuteScribe coming out soon that has some more usability enhancements, and it also supports playback using TAB's midi output facility. I will make an announcement on the list in the coming days. Best Wishes - Luke On 05-Mar-2019 07:09, Jurgen Frenz wrote: Oops - I REALLY was ignorant about the image issue. Here is a link to google docs, I inserted the screen shots into a text file. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s4MoYEk4QArbZBENI9AWZ_GJDGKms1VYFFZt_LTsp7E/edit?usp=sharing Best Jurgen -- “There is a voice that doesn’t use words. Listen.” Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Tuesday, March 5, 2019 9:47 AM, wayne lute wrote: Hi Lute People and Jurgen - Looks like you don’t know that the lute list does not like pictures, which in this case is a shame. Perhaps you could post them on a web site or google documents. They show characters, especially the letter e, in lute-scribe input format and as output by my “tab” programt. Jurgen says . . . Hello there, I am asking about the "e" in lute scribe - in the editor the character appears as a "normal" minuscule e whereas in print the character has changed to a tilted small capital "E" as documented in the attached screenshots - actually I very much like that capital E but I cannot find it in the font. How does this miracle happen? Thanks for a hint, Jurgen you can email Jurgen at eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com mailto:eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com and you can read about my tab program at https://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute/AboutTab.html Wayne Begin forwarded message: From: Jurgen Frenz eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Lute Scribe character / font question Date: March 4, 2019 at 9:14:51 PM EST To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Reply-To: Jurgen Frenz eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com ogѕхэ7uЗ§oMЙoVкуmКпо_зЎЕзpЈзЇЕ<ЉzзБЗњej)м Њьz To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- -- __ Orlando Lutes http://www.orlando-lutes.com
