[LUTE] Re: [Viols] question about the viola da gamba
That is correct, Bottesini was known to play a three string bass. If memory serves, he often tuned his instrument in 5ths rather than 4ths which would have required a lot of shifting between positions especially for his solo works. Many of the older double basses in use today were originally three string basses that have been converted to four string instruments. I know one player with a Maginni solo bass who was able to trace the history of when his was converted. Vuillaume built an Octobass in the early 1800's which was about 10 feet tall and was so huge it required two people to play, one to operate the fingering "levers" and the other to bow. Years ago when Dave Horine was alive, he had one of the surviving Octobasses on display at his Bass Viol Shop in Cincinnatti. That was a fascinating place for those of us who started as bassists. But then Dave was a fascinating guy, a real craftsman, and a gentleman too. Regards, Mike - Original Message - From: "Eugene C. Braig IV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 11:53 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: [Viols] question about the viola da gamba > At 12:42 PM 3/15/2007, you wrote: >>Neill Vanhinsberg wrote: >> >> > It's a viol. Descended from the violone. >> >>The double bass section of a modern orchestra is something of a racial >>melting pot. Some instruments have violin bodies while others have the >>slope-shouldered viol form. Post-baroque basses have historically >>taken a number of forms. Two centuries ago there were versions with >>three strings and five strings. > > Even one (or at least ca. 1.25) century ago in some cases. I believe > Bottesini (1821-1889) often played 3-string versions. > > Best, > Eugene > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: Bartoli lets it blast
I like it that way too. I had the opportunity to hear Cecilia live a couple years ago at a small venue. She's incredible. - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Lute Net" ; ""Mathias Rösel"" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 3:47 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartoli lets it blast >>> > Since based on the evidence of her recordings and performances we >>> > know that she actually CAN sing in tune, I'm giving her the benefit >>> > of the doubt on this one that she was singing this way intentionally >>> > for dramatic effect. >>> >>> Giving her the same benefit of the doubt, she recorded an entire >>> Vivaldi CD striving for pretty much the same dramatic effect. I'm >>> inclined to think that the music's unfamiliar and technically difficult >>> for her (was it Burney who complained that Vivaldi would have done well >>> to remember that "the gullet is not the neck of a violin"?) and >>> technical concerns are driving the performance: she's mainly concerned >>> about machine-gunning the notes out in tempo. >> >> It's her distinct way to sing those fast notes clearly. I for one like >> it that way (which doesn't exclude other way). >> -- >> Mathias > So do I. > RT > > > == > http://polyhymnion.org > > Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. > > > > _ > Need personalized email and website? Look no further. It's easy > with Doteasy $0 Web Hosting! Learn more at www.doteasy.com > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
Re: lute outreach
Roman & Kenneth- Sounds like a fascinating program. Sorry I missed it. Please let me know if you plan any more either in Cleveland or if you come to Detroit. Mike - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 7:55 AM Subject: Re: lute outreach > > I've had a delightful weekend with an out of town visitor here to Cleveland, > Indeed it was, in part due to Kenneth's enthusiasm. > > > > yes the very Roman Turovsky has been here to present some music to the > > Ukrainian cultural community played on the 13 course. Yesterday I assisted a > > little > > in playing some examples of 6 course and also 11 course repertoire in a brief > > lecture he gave to a class of banduria students, a discussion which touched as > > well on the torban. This certainly has peaked my own interest in the > > fascinating and often-neglected part of musical history! Roman also played > > some > > arrangements of Ukrainian folksongs on the 13 course, which I must say is a > > very > > suitable instrument for the haunting melodies. > It was totally unrehearsed and we were given minimal timeslot, but it worked > out very, very well. Thank you, Ken. > > > > > > To top it off there was an amazing solo vocal performance given last night by > > Mar'jana Sadowska of Ukrainian songs she learned from women in small villages > > during her travels, given inside the setting of a a former Ukrainian church on > > the west side of Cleveland's downtown. > An amazing performance it was > My group's program of the Ukraintian murder ballads shared the double-bill > with Mar'jana on Sunday for a benefit for some local Ukrainian > radio-station, but the greatest part of the weekend was post-concert music > making at the Mar'jana's house, wherein I got to accompany the duo > consisting of Mar'jana S. and Nadia Tarnawsky (a really excellent singer > herself, also active in Early Music (and the organizer of the Mar'jana's > Sat.concert)) in the Lied #29 from > http://www.polyhymnion.org/lieder/ukrainian.html > A definite high point for me personally. > RT > -- > http://polyhymnion.org/torban > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
Re: Newbie Question #2
Hi Gary, How do you like your 5 string double bass? I could never get used to the flatter arch of a 5 string bridge and opted for a low C fingered extension many years ago. Regards, Mike - Original Message - From: "gary digman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lutelist" Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 7:58 AM Subject: Re: Newbie Question #2 > We could have some form of "French" tuning pegs such as exist on my 5 string > double bass. They combine a gear with a wooden peg under slight friction. I > like them so much on my bass that I've often wished I had them on my lutes, > baroque guitar and gamba also. Maybe we can get the ear of a luthier on > this. > > Gary > > - Original Message - > From: "Dr. Marion Ceruti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Vance Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute list" ; > "Caroline Usher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 1:11 PM > Subject: Re: Newbie Question #2 > > > > Vance Wood wrote: > > > > "However there is an historical accuracy not touched on and that is the > > limits of > > expediency in addressing some of the same problems that seem to plague > > us." > > > > ++I agree with Vance on this one. > > Whether we like it or not, we are stuck with historical accuracy. > > This past weekend I brought my 8c ren lute from the coast where > > it is cool and (relatively) damp to the desert where it is hot and dry. > > It took me an hour to tune, pegs being the way they are. If we > > were more interested in efficiency than were were in historical > > accuracy we would be using machine tuning. I can tune three > > or four strings on a modern instrument to within 1/4 cent accuracy > > (the limit of the gauge) in the time it takes to tune one string > > on a peg given a change in ambient temperature or humidity. > > > > I can see some advantage in movable frets, but I really see no > > advantage whatsoever in pegs, other than the historical significance. > > Historical accuracy comes with a very high pricetag in terms of > > time wasted that otherwise could be used for practicing. > > > > Best regards, > > Marion > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Vance Wood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Apr 4, 2005 12:22 PM > > To: lute list , Caroline Usher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: Re: Newbie Question #2 > > > > Dear Caroline: > > > > In the context this was written--Yes. When it comes to understanding > > the instrument, the music and the player/authors--No. In answered to > > the question we? If that means you wish to exclude yourself from that > > painting with a broad brush I would like to hear your thoughts. If you > > mean > > that I am caught up in historical accuracy, which incidentally is not so > > because I cannot afford it, and should have not used the word "We" I > > stand > > corrected. However from the way things tend to go on this list it would > > seem that most are very much centered on historical accuracy. However > > there > > is an historical accuracy not touched on and that is the limits of > > expediency in addressing some of the same problems that seem to plague us. > > - Original Message - > > From: "Caroline Usher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "lute list" > > Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 12:04 PM > > Subject: Re: Newbie Question #2 > > > > > >> At 11:29 AM 4/3/2005, Vance Wood wrote: > >> >I think sometimes we get too caught up in the historical accuracy of > >> >what > > it > >> >is we do. > >> > >> What you mean we, white man? > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ;-) > >> Caroline > >> Caroline Usher > >> DCMB Administrative Coordinator > >> 613-8155, Box 91000 > >> B343 LSRC > >> > >> > >> > >> To get on or off this list see list information at > >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
Re: dancing play
Hi Dana- Natalie MacMaster dances while she plays fiddle too. Also a marvelous sight. Mike - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute list" Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 4:23 PM Subject: dancing play > I have seen a fiddler dance while playing, it was a marvelous sight. Yes, he was > dressed in motly, and seemed approrpiately undernourished. When not dancing he is > an acomplished player and composer; his prancing was entertaining. Together it > was unexpected, but skilful. > > I would NOT advocate this be attempted with the typical lap-held lute, but given a > strap, and some piece chosen for its rythmic interest, it just might be possible; > by someone a damn sight lighter than I tho :-). > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
OU
Hi Vance- If memory serves, it was you who mentioned participating in lute & early music programs at Oakland University. I notice their website now makes no mention of an early music program. Do you know what happened and when? Thanks, Mike Wilson - Original Message - From: "Vance Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute list" ; "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2005 2:43 PM Subject: Re: belly braces To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: advise (off list)
"Actually the only good coffee in the world is made in the U.S. Navy" Lifer's Juice - Original Message - From: "Jon Murphy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "bill kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Stuart LeBlanc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "guy_and_liz Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2004 1:22 AM Subject: Re: advise (off list) > English coffee is "godawful", but they do make a good "cuppa". As to coffee > in the US, forget it if you go for a place that sells "coffee", but you can > get a damned good cup o' joe at any truck stop. I've ground my own in the > past, but these days I just make a pot from Folger's French (yes, French) > Roast. A good value at the supermarket. The fancy bean don't do no good if > you stack it with creams or flavorings. > > Actually the only good coffee in the world is made in the U.S. Navy, it is > called "midwatch coffee". Start the pot at about 8:00pm (2000 hours) in the > urn back by the signal bags at the rear of the bridge, let it boil down for > hours. Then when the midwatch comes up at midnight there will be coffee for > them. > > It has been said, although I don't believe it, that the destroyer tenders > can't leave port as they are beached on their own coffee grounds. > > The coffee bean is a fine fruit, and those who brew their own might find a > difference between the African, the Columbian and the others. But who could > you tell if you went to a Starbuck, or other "coffee shop" and ordered a > latte? I have drunk Espresso in restaurants (and have an Espresso machine at > home). There is no cup of coffee that can match what I brew with the most > economical commercial blend. I've drunk the brew in Paris and NY, Brussels > and Rome, coffee is to be enjoyed straight and black and strong. My only > regret is that no brew can smell as good as the original bean as ground, but > we can get close. > > Best, Jon > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Aquafortis
There have been recent discussions in the Musical Instrument Makers Forum about the use of nitric acid to color wood. I don't know if those discussions are still posted, but if not, will likely show up in their library in a few weeks. http://www.mimf.com Mike - Original Message - From: "Marcus Merrin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 4:40 PM Subject: Re: Aquafortis > > > Aquafortis is dilute nitric acid. It is a strong oxidizing agent and > attacks sugars and cellulose in wood, partially turning them black. It > also turns fingers bright yellow, possibly useful for performances in > low-contrast environments. > > Potash is potassium hydroxide, a strong base which will remove flesh > from unwanted body parts. A dilute solution of it can be made by > mixing wood ash with water and filtering out the bits. I've never heard > of it being used for staining wood, but I would suggest that it would be > a bad idea to soak wood in it as it will seriously affect the strength. > Also, don't get it in contact with aluminum as it makes hydrogen . (That > was the method used to fill the Hindenburg, and look where that got them.) > > Marcus > > Jon Murphy wrote: > > >I don't remember the nitric versus the hydocholric acid (although I do > >remember my hands turning brown from pure nitric acid). But I do remember > >that a fine furniture man, Mario Lauria, used a dilute mix of Potash - which > >I think would make a nitric acid - to turn the wood without stain. We made a > >bartop of Mahogany (white, in the natural state) and turned it into a fine > >deep reddish with the Potash (and it wouldn't burn with cigarettes, as there > >was no stain to burn). Hope this helps. > > > >Best, Jon > > > > > > > > > > > >>Is nitric or hydrochloric acid( I forgot which) which you wet the wood > >> > >> > >with > > > > > >>then apply heat and it turns the wood brown (or green if you are unlucky) > >> > >> > >use > > > > > >>dilute. I used on a rifle stock and by the time I was done it was too > >> > >> > >dark. > > > > > >>As I understand it it works on maple (sycamore to you UK folks) and reacts > >> > >> > >with > > > > > >>the sugar in the wood. > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > // Marcus Merrin PhD. > // EmptyAir Consulting > // Linux/Unix-platform database and custom server technology > // [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://emptyair.com > // (902)225-5188 (Mobile) || (902)455-2284 (Office) > / > > >
Re: Ukr. Lutes @ Lissberg-Ortenberg Festival
Roman, That's an interesting site. Thanks, Mike - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "LUTE-LIST" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2004 11:49 AM Subject: Ukr. Lutes @ Lissberg-Ortenberg Festival > The festival site has some interesting recordings, FYPD. > RT > > http://www.das-drehleier.net/seiten/KOBSAREN-MUSIK.htm > >
Re: "really good deals..."
The Nigerian Scam has been around in one form or another for 10 years or more. I received them in quantity in the early & mid 90's, but via postal service in those days. I sent the first few I received to US Postal Inspector. - Original Message - From: "Arthur Ness (boston)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "LUTE NET" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 11:19 AM Subject: "really good deals..." > You are receiving the Nigeria Scam. Charlotte even got one at work though > the mails. They used counterfeit Nigerian stamps to send out thousands of > such letters. I haven't received any for quite a while but for several > years or so I'd get one every week. > > Chris Goodwin (administrator of the Lute Society, UK) posted a warning from > Scotland Yard a few months ago involving e-bay sales of automobiles I > wrote a followup but did not posty it. If I still have them I'll post to > the list. > > Since their scam sometimes uses musical instruments, it would make sense > that they would monitor the lute net. This is a dangerous gang of thugs at > work and not a hoax. There are web sites warning about their activities. > > Arthur. > >
Re: old lute LPs
I believe there are software applications that will convert analog recordings to digital formats, although I haven't used them. About 4 years ago, I acquired a cd copier made by Philips. It has two cd trays (source and destination) and pretty much does all the work. It can make direct copies of audio CDs but also has preamplified and non-preamplified analog inputs so I can make CDs from LPS, Cassette, Radio, etc. My main reason for getting this copier was to transfer my LP collection. It works well although although I have to use music cds because it won't recognize data cds. Just another option Mike - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 5:31 PM Subject: old lute LPs > I'd guess that quite a few people on this list are old enough to have lute LPs. And those of us who are, have probably got (or had) more or less the same ones. > > I've just dug out my old vinyl recordings; some of them look OK, others look not quite so good. I've got Steinberg's 'Clean' - a program for cleaning up old LPs and transferring them to CD. Has anybody else tried this (or similar programs) with their old lute LPs? > > Perhaps the better recordings have already been reissued as CDs anyway? > > And I wonder what the consensus now is on those old performances from the 70s and early 80s? There's been more research into everything since then (I suppose) - the music, lute construction, temperaments, strings. Are these LPs really just a rather dated product of their time? > > For example, I've got an old Hungaraton record of Daniel Benko (trying to look like Frank Zappa on the cover) playing Bakfark. I haven't listened to this in years but I remember it as being pretty awful. But what about the complete works of Dowland on Florilegeum. Everyone of a certain age must have bought that. I wonder what the five lutenists themselves think of it now? (Maybe this recording is available on CD?) > > And what about the Ragossnig Archiv Productions of music from different countries? (Very guitaristic, I seem to remember) Or James Tyler's Saga recordings? Does anyone listen to them? > > And what about the early recordings of Hopkinson Smith and Paul O'Dette, Michael Schaffer and Eugene Dombois? > > I've used 'Clean' to revive some old jazz recordings I used to like and the result has been disappointing and sometimes even depressing. But jazz is different from lute music. > > > > > > > - > Email provided by http://www.ntlhome.com/ > > >
Re: Goodbye!
Goodbye. Good luck. - Original Message - From: "Arto Wikla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2004 6:45 PM Subject: Goodbye! > > Dear lutenists, _really dear_ lutenists! > > To me the previous events in the world, those that I could even call > "war crimes" and "crimes against humanity", have occurred to me so > horrible and so serious that I really have to work with my attitude to > the USA altogether. So, I'll quit from writing to the lute list - to > prevent my perhaps unbiased insults to my American friends! If Wayne > accepts, I'll still read the list, though... > > See and hear you; "don't know where, don't know when"... > And all the best to all of you! > > I know I should have not written "politics" here! But this is the last > time! And from "politics" to "moral" there is a difference. Torturing > human beings concerns the "moral", not just the "politics"... > > Sorry for this mail and sorry for the world! Goodbye! > > Arto > >
Re: Theorbo???
Craig, This link might give you some info. http://www.civilization.ca/arts/opus/opus420e.html Mike - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 7:48 AM Subject: Theorbo??? > Greetings all, > > Is anyone familiar with the works of luthier Colin Everett of Ottawa, Canada and the instruments he made during the '70s? Also, is this instrument listed here at eBay > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3716162191&category=623 > > really a theorbo? Or is it what is often referred to as a theorbo-lute? Or is it something else altogether? > > Regards, > Craig > > >
Re: Non-lute composers poll.
Difficult task. Eclectic, perhaps, but these are among my favorites ... this month. Verdi Brahms Tchaikovsky Berg Bartok Stravinski Runners-up: Rachmaninoff Messiaen Nino Rota Roger Sessions Milton Babbitt Aaron Copeland Thelonius Monk Frank Zappa Mike - Original Message - From: "Herbert Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 12:48 PM Subject: Non-lute composers poll. > > Which non-lute post-Renaissance composers do we lutenists most respect? > List your 6 favorite, in descending order. > > I will count the results. Please put a number before each name, as below. > > My vote is: > 1. Beethoven > 2. Tchaikovsky > 3. Mozart > 4. Ravel > 5. Bach > 6. Wagner > > Below is a list of widely respected composers. > > Herb > > - > Beethoven > Bach > Mozart > Brahms > Tchaikovsky > Haydn > Chopin > Stravinsky > Mendelssohn > Mahler > Copland > Strauss > Sibelius > Schubert > Prokofiev > Handel > Dvorak > Berg > Bartok > Vivaldi > Verdi > Schumann > Schoenberg > Ravel > Rachmaninov > Ives > Hindemith > Grieg > Gershwin > Debussy > Bruckner > Webern > Wagner > Vaughan-Williams > Smetana > Shostakovich > Rimsky-Korsakov > Purcell > Puccini > Poulenc > Palestrina > Orff > Moussorgsky > Monteverdi > Milhaud > Liszt > Janacek > Holst > Grofe > Glinka > Franck > Faure > Falla > Elgar > Britten > Bizet > Bernstein > Berlioz > Barber > > >
Re: Lute Building Woods
Hi, Ken. You might want to check out Guild of American Luthiers website at www.luth.org They have several links to suppliers. Also, you might want to check out the Musical Instrument Makers Forum www.mimf.com They also have several supplier links and a library of archived discussions. You must register (free) to access the library. Also, several wood suppliers participate in discussions on mimf. Good luck, Mike - Original Message - From: "Ken Brodkey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2004 12:39 PM Subject: Lute Building Woods > Hi Everyone, > > I'm looking for good sources of woods for lute building. I need curly maple > (European if possible), yew and rosewood for staves and German and Italian > spruce for soundboards. I'm told there are several good suppliers in Germany > but I don't have any specifics. Any help you all can provide will be very > much appreciated. > > Thanks very much. > > Ken Brodkey > >
Re: new lute song CD
Thomas, Thanks for this notice. What an interesting CD by this duo! Jeni Melia has a lovely voice indeed. Mike Detroit, Michigan USA - Original Message - From: "Thomas Schall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Lautenliste" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 1:34 PM Subject: new lute song CD > Hi luters! > > I haven't seen an announcement of this on the list. So I jump into the > hole and want to inform you that there is a new lute song CD out (and a > very recommendable!): > > The Last of Old England - Jeni Melia (soprano) and Chris Goodwin (lute) > > "The Last of Old England" is an anthology of Elizabethan lute songs, > folk songs, and song settings of lyrics by Shakespeare and other English > poets. > > The CD contains music by elisabethian english composers like Dowland, > Campion, Morley, Rosseter, Pilkington and Johnson, Folk Songs and > unaccompanied Irish folk songs. > > There ars also some lute solo pieces on the CD. > > Worth mentioning is that Chris made the arrangements by himself and if > you listen to the sampletrack O waly waly (2.2MB on > http://www.tslaute.de/waly.mp3) you'll see what a good job he did. > The thing which immediatly attracted me was apart from the very > interesting and entertaining program of the CD was the voice of Jeni > Melia in which I immediatly felt in love. > > I hope we will hear much more of that creative new duo soon (I think I > really will try to make it to London in April to listen to her singing - > Chris didn't mention in Lute News if he will be accompanying her but I > do hope so ... if the duo sounds so charming and fresh on CD how must > this sound in reality?)! > > If you want to order the CD: The price is £10 plus £1 p&p / US$18 > (includes postage) / 16 euros (includes postage) > > orders can be made at > http://www.jenirecords.co.uk > or http://www.tslaute.de/katalog_ts.jsp > > > Best wishes > Thomas > > -- > Thomas Schall > Niederhofheimer Weg 3 > D-65843 Sulzbach > 06196/74519 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss > > --
Re: new pictures
Beautiful instrument, Martin. - Original Message - From: "Martin Shepherd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 7:17 AM Subject: new pictures > Dear All, > > I have just added pictures of a new 9c lute on www.luteshop.fsnet.co.uk/789c/9c.htm > > I hope you like them! > > Best wishes, > > Martin > > P.S. Please let me know if you have any trouble with the new piece of the month and archive - there have been a few problems already but none so far which I can trace to my site - it works for me. > > > > >
Re: John Cage
Tom, You are well informed on aspects of Cage's life and music and deliver your thoughts with eloquence. Thank you. Cage questioned everything musical and, from what I understand, felt in no way compelled to follow convention. Like his music or not (I like much of it - am still struggling to understand some), his innovation did influence musical thought for some years. I agree, Oliver Messiaen (another of my favorites), Boulez, Alban Berg and other 20th century greats do indeed owe him a debt. Cage was a pioneer. He constantly challenged boundaries and somehow made it okay for others to take their music where it may not have otherwise gone. Cage was passionate about the use of "chance" in his works ... maybe that was his convention. In May of 1973, I was fortunate to be able to spend a day with John Cage hunting morel mushrooms (one of his favorite endeavors in later years) in the north Michigan woods. He had agreed to visit the composition class at a small music school in northern Michigan I was attending at the time. Strangely enough, most of our conversation was about non-musical subjects rather, I should say, "non-compositional". I think the woods had a profound effect on him. That of course, was 30 years ago and memory fades but, to this day, I'm struck by both the quiet intensity of his persona- and his love and reverence for all life. That was the only time only time I met John Cage. . I, for one, see no duality in your love of things serial and your interest in the lute. My musical interests float between early music, what we called "avante garde" 20th century , and serial music. I might leave one genre for a while, but I always come back. John Cage's music on the lute.. why not? Best wishes, Mike - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 6:38 PM Subject: John Cage > Though I was never, even in my most radical student days, an admirer of > Cage's music, his influence has been enormous. The music I always found profoundly > dull, the notorious 4' 33" silly (though it must be one of the first pieces of > concept art in modern times (pace Duchamps et al). But questions like his > 'Why is a Beethoven symphony more interesting than a cow bell?' is much less easy > to answer than might at first seem. One usually ends up arguing in circles, > 'Beethoven is better than a cow bell because Beethoven us better than a cow > bell'. And the concept of silence or the effects of extraneous noise not only in > the world in the world around us, but also in music itself, is something that, > as Howard pointed out, often overlooked. As regards silence, Webern made its > dramatic effect clearer than ever before, and I find it difficult to imagine a > time when I didn't hear, say, the beginning of the 'Eroica' without taking > into account the effect of the pauses (there are, of course, countless other > examples of the structural significance of silence in classical music). > > Cage knew what he was doing, and why. Of course he was an iconoclast, but a > fascinating one, like so many intelligent Americans. We Europeans tend to look > at our heritage in an incestuous way, while the Americans see it from the > outside, and ask, perfectly sensibly, 'Why all the fuss?' I first came across this > as a post-grad in Oxford in the 1960s, where many of my best friends were > Americans. Initially one was shocked by their questions, but very soon saw that > they were in reality questioning not the 'thing in itself', but our European > attitude towards it, encrusted with devotion, history, reverence because it was > 'old', and convinced it was 'great' because we had been told by the powers > that be that it was. Their attitude was, 'What does it mean to ME?', and not > what the establishment intend it to mean to me. It was intensely refreshing, and > has certainly left its mark on me for life. 'Go your own way', was the > message, 'Do your own thing, and if the toffs don't like it, well, hard luck on the > toffs!' > > There is lot to be said for that. Friends think it odd that a lover of serial > music like me should take up the lute, but, following the lesson my American > friends taught me, I've always gone my own way, and am glad I've done so. John > Cage is part of that way of thinking. He questioned the basis of European > music, above all its love of itself, and that was a great moment in the recent > history of the art. Boulez, Messiaen and others owe a huge debt to him, for he > helped return sound to the world of sound, and it no longer was there merely to > portray things, landscapes, feelings, etc., but simply to be sound for its > own wonderful sake. Mallarme, did much the same for poetry. But as I say, I > never liked Cage as a musician. But as a pointer and prophet, he was peerless. > Cheers > > Tom > > --
Re: Size of the lute world
Vance & David R.- Points well taken. We each come from a different orientation but, for me, I'm more inclined to be more open to one's perspective if their position is presented with logic and courtesy rather than with insult and arrogance. Maybe it's just my perspective, but bad delivery taints the quality and the value of the information given. Mike Wilson - Original Message - From: "Vance Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 11:27 PM Subject: Re: Size of the lute world > Trouble is-a lot of them drop out or go underground because the group > that should be supporting them and encouraging them is by far and away as > friendly as a pack of junk yard dogs. As a whole I have never been exposed > to a group, boasting interest passionately in a particular endeavor, that is > more driven by ego, pride, condescension, duplicity and judgementalism. > Before you get mad at me read through the posts that have flooded email > servers world wide over the last week or so and ask yourself: If you were > new to the Lute would you feel safe and confident in posting a question to > this bunch of brigands? > > There are some fine people in this group that posses a wealth of knowledge > but in asking a question you have to first consider what side of the fence > you might fall on to and who is going to consider you one of theirs and one > of his and one of yours. This is absurd and self destructive. I just wish > every one would temper their opinions with a little good sense realizing > that you or I don't like everyone and everyone does not like you or I. > That's the truth of it BUT!!! we all love the Lute. > > Vance Wood.
Re: Facsimeles etc.
Stewart and James-- Well stated. Thank you. - Original Message - From: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Lute Net" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 5:38 AM Subject: Re: Facsimeles etc. > Dear James, > > No, you are not alone. I suppose people forget that, when we send > messages addressed to particular individuals, we are also sending > that same message to everyone else on the list. If you aim a bucket > of water at someone, everyone else gets soaked in the process. > > There have been two kinds of name-calling in the last few days: > > a) Using an offensive word like "monkey" or "ape"; > > b) Altering someone's name into some sort of sarcastic nickname, > e.g. MO for Matanya Ophee, Uncle Albert for Albert Reyerman, and St. > McCoy for me. > > Calling someone by a name other than their correct name is puerile, > and has the opposite effect from the one intended. Name-calling is > designed to hurt someone by making fun of them, but it is inevitably > the name-caller who ends up looking foolish, because it reflects the > paucity of his thought. It is all very tiresome, and I do wish it > would stop. > > Best wishes, > > Stewart McCoy. > > > > - Original Message - > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 5:58 AM > Subject: Re: Facsimeles etc. > > > > To all, > > > > Am I the only one who finds the name calling, and tone of some > of these > > e-mail exchanges offensive? It's great to be passionate and have > strong feelings > > about a subject, but how about a modicum of civility? I know, "if > you don't > > like it, don't read it"; but the subject matter is interesting, > so, I read. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > James > > >
Re: Newbie to the lute
Joh, You might want to check out this site regarding Robert Lundberg's "Historical Lute Construction" book. http://luth.org/books/books.htm#lute Best Wishes, Mike - Original Message - From: "Jon Murphy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Howard Posner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Arto Wikla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Sir David Vavreck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Ed Durbrow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 3:38 AM Subject: Re: Newbie to the lute > OK, I give up. I'll never play a lute. I'll play something that resembles a > lute. I can't find any notation that suggests the way to adjust a tied fret > to fit the piece. The hey-day of the lute was the time of the Trouveres and > Troubadours, although it preceded that. The notation of the time is a bit > scanty. I wonder if one of those old timers might have set a fret had he a > fret saw and said "wow, I don't have to keep adjusting that gut tie". I > assume that none of you are quick enough with your fingers to adjust to the > natural scale depending on which way you are moving (as violinists can do). > If you are then you must be so dedicated to this instrument as to neglect > all else. Unless I misread it, the lute fret pattern is chromatic, like the > guitar (I also play mountain dulcimer which is not chromatic, it is fretted > to the old modes). As I've mentioned before here, I'm designing a levered > three octave plucked (and hammered, they are all that way) psaltery. I can > do that as I've got things they didn't have a thousand years ago. Is it less > a psaltery because it can join the harps in various keys than the old two > octave psaltery fixed in a particular key? No, it is the same instrument, > played in the same way, just with a bit more versatility to join other > versions of ancient instruments. > > I think that some here (and I should bow my head as a newbie) may be too > purist. Were I to be that pure on my harps I'd have to use a tortoise shell > as a soundboard. The music of the old lutists was passed on from one to the > other, just as a lot of other music has been. Duplicating the instrument > doesn't duplicate the music. But imitating the sound of the instrument > brings you close, and that is in the notation and the basic structure. > > O'Carolan wandered Ireland many years ago, and I'm sure his harp sounded > much like mine (although I'm sure he played it better). > > Best. Jon > > >
