[LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique?
Just to follow up on this, I received some replies that were not also copied to the list. The consensus is that classical guitar technique is not the same a thumb-out, and therefore I will need to learn some form of lute technique. Given this, the lute technique to learn is thumb-under.. I think I will try and use it from the very start, and also begin with new but simple pieces, and even perhaps a different form of tablature. Hopefully this will slow me down enough and I won't rush the process of getting familiar with the hand position and the technique producing a reasonable tone. Thanks to all for the valuable advice. regards, morgan - Original Message - From: "morgan cornwall" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 3:51 PM Subject: [LUTE] should i learn thumb-under technique? Dear Individual and Collective Wisdom, I am an amateur guitarist of about 25 years. I play fingerstyle acoustic, electric, and classical guitar. Because of my other hobbies, such as gardening, I gave up playing with nails some years ago and strictly play with my fingertips. Last year I commissioned a 7-course student lute from Stephen Harris and Sandi Barber, and it is nearing completion. I intend to play renaissance music on this instrument. I have wanted a lute for many years so I am quite excited. From following this list, reading lute tutors, searching the internet, and watching footage of lute players I realize that there aren't strictly thumb-under and thumb-out techniques, but all the shades in between. Currently my technique is very rooted in classical guitar technique, and my thumb never crosses under my other fingers. I have limited time to devote to music, and limited time to devote to learning lute technique. I am not in a rush to learn how to play, but I would like to make the best use of the time I have. Given my circumstances, would you recommend that I learn thumb-under technique? Does it make more sense to use this technique from the start, or should I focus on the other aspects of lute technique? If I don't learn thumb-under from the get go, will this just be more to unlearn later? Should I not even worry about using thumb-under? Thank you in advance, morgan -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique?
Was he that really melancholy guy? I think I asked him to play at a party and regretted it for quite a while. Seemed to know how to tickle the gut though. Question to all. If thumb-under assists in playing the double courses simultaneously and without double striking, how did the baroque lutenists (or Dowland for that matter) avoid this problem when they switched to thumb-out? And thank you, Howard, for the comments. - Original Message - From: "howard posner" To: "Lute List" Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:20 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: should i learn thumb-under technique? On Mar 17, 2010, at 11:51 AM, morgan cornwall wrote: I would like to make the best use of the time I have. Given my circumstances, would you recommend that I learn thumb-under technique? Does it make more sense to use this technique from the start, or should I focus on the other aspects of lute technique? If I don't learn thumb-under from the get go, will this just be more to unlearn later? Should I not even worry about using thumb-under? I remember some years ago, a lurker on the list named John Dowland asked if he should change from thumb-under to thumb-out technique, since everyone seemed to have been switching, and he got a mixed bag of responses. I wish I could forward them on to you, but it was more than 400 years ago and my email archives don't go back that far; Stewart McCoy probably has them. I believe Dowland made that change, or so Stobaeus tells us. As for you, you should arrange your right hand so that it's getting a full tone and not banging two strings of a course together, which in turn involves striking the string from the top, as if you're pushing them down toward the soundboard. Your guitar technique will probably not accomplish this. Resting the pinkie on the soundboard is helpful in orienting the hand, so even if it feels odd at first, you should try it. Experiment with whatever works, and don't worry too much about where your thumb is, unless it's interfering with your fingers. My first lute teacher told me to try thumb-under for at least a week or so, mostly to get me doing something different from what I was used to, the theory being, I suppose, that doing something farthest removed from my established habits would minimize the transfer of lute-inappropriate technique to the lute. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] should i learn thumb-under technique?
Dear Individual and Collective Wisdom, I am an amateur guitarist of about 25 years. I play fingerstyle acoustic, electric, and classical guitar. Because of my other hobbies, such as gardening, I gave up playing with nails some years ago and strictly play with my fingertips. Last year I commissioned a 7-course student lute from Stephen Harris and Sandi Barber, and it is nearing completion. I intend to play renaissance music on this instrument. I have wanted a lute for many years so I am quite excited. From following this list, reading lute tutors, searching the internet, and watching footage of lute players I realize that there aren't strictly thumb-under and thumb-out techniques, but all the shades in between. Currently my technique is very rooted in classical guitar technique, and my thumb never crosses under my other fingers. I have limited time to devote to music, and limited time to devote to learning lute technique. I am not in a rush to learn how to play, but I would like to make the best use of the time I have. Given my circumstances, would you recommend that I learn thumb-under technique? Does it make more sense to use this technique from the start, or should I focus on the other aspects of lute technique? If I don't learn thumb-under from the get go, will this just be more to unlearn later? Should I not even worry about using thumb-under? Thank you in advance, morgan -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Robert Spencer Collection
And look at that picking hand position! One website gave this information: Mary 'Moll' Davis, actress and mistress of Charles II, whose child Mary Tudor (1673-1726), married the Second Earl of Derwentwater. morgan - Original Message - From: "Monica Hall" To: "Stuart Walsh" Cc: "Lutelist" Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2010 7:43 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Robert Spencer Collection The lady playing the guitar is printed from an engraving and the engraver may have got her the wrong way round! Monica - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Lutelist" Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 9:32 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Robert Spencer Collection Monica Hall wrote: At least some of Bob Spencer's collection is now in the library of the Royal Academy of Music in London. You can access their catalogue on line from the RAM site. MOnica Really interesting. Had a quick look. Some pics of some of his instruments. Lots of fascinating engravings: like this good-looking lute player: http://www.ram.ac.uk/emuweb/objects/common/webmedia.php?irn=1603&reftable=ecatalogue&refirn=2099 or this woman playing a guitar: http://www.ram.ac.uk/emuweb/objects/common/webmedia.php?irn=1023&reftable=ecatalogue&refirn=2009 and more. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Viola-Matic
If you weigh this against all the appliances and gadgets it replaces, it's just the price of a few cups of coffee per day (for about 8 years). It probably could be used to grind beans as well. - Original Message - From: "Eugene C. Braig IV" To: Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 10:34 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Viola-Matic To quote the director of the Milwaukee Mandolin Orchestra (who also works at a violin shop and used to play with Mannheim Steamroller), "Actual current price for a Luis & Clark carbon fiber viola: US$5,839.00!" Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Daniel F Heiman Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 1:22 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Viola-Matic Decidedly off-topic, but something to think about for folks performing under less than ideal weather conditions. With a matched set of fluorocarbon strings http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yf2w2zMNvzE *This is a real playable musical instrument.* (Not quite as inexpensive as the tag line suggests.) Daniel Heiman To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: microintervals in rock music
Howdy All, I just listened to this song, and I would say for sure they are using microtones intentionally. It's slow bending which is part of the main riff, but the emphasis is on the microtones between the notes. Repeated over and over... I would agreee this is pretty common, although generally not so blatent. Blues players also often over/under bend on purpose, Otis Rush comes to mind. best, mc - Original Message - From: "Reinier de Valk" To: "Arto Wikla" ; "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 8:56 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: OT: microintervals in rock music Dear Arto (and others interested), The bending of strings is actually quite common in many forms of guitar-based pop- and rock music. Most of the time, the 'target note' is a multiple of a semitone higher -- i.e., the note is bent up a semitone, a whole tone, a tone and a semitone, etc. However, if players want their bends to have some kind of 'wailing' quality to them, they often bend tones slightly higher or lower than these fixed intervals, and I think this is exactly what is happening in the Alice in Chains song. I'm quite sure AiC don't use microtones intentionally. Just my impression - I hope I'm not stating the obvious! Best wishes, Reinier - Original Message - From: "Arto Wikla" To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 1:21 PM Subject: [LUTE] OT: microintervals in rock music Hi musicians, Sorry for being OT, if you don't like that, delete immediately... ;.) I have not often heard microintervals used as an intended means of experession in rock music, but today while taking our teenagers to school, we were listening to a rock channel, and I heard "Check My Brain" by Alice in Chains. Strange music, interesting! And found also an acoustic version in the y-tube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irCPY1gXZ0g&NR=1 This is anyhow acoustic plucking... Their main version is in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBcADQziQWY All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Arabian past
So perhaps the trick is to play in a basin, such as the Mediterranean, where the water supports most of your weight... Imagine how shocked you would be to look up and notice a millenia had gone by! - Original Message - From: "howard posner" To: "Lutelist list" Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 3:12 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Arabian past On Nov 22, 2009, at 6:43 AM, wrote: Howard, --- On Sat, 11/21/09, howard posner wrote: Various lutes were played for millenia in the Mediterranean basin So Chris Wilkes still has a long way to go. ? I haven't been a part of this particular discussion. What exactly are you implying? That you have a long way to go before you can play a lute for millenia: With the footstool, I was required to stretch out every 45 minutes or so. The first time I practiced with an Ergoplay, however, I was shocked to look at a clock and see that I had gone three hours straight without getting up To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double headed lute pic?
Stuart, this may help: Van Mieris - Self Portrait from the Uffizi Gallery http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FdSIys2XfI regards, morgan - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" To: "Lute Net" Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 4:37 PM Subject: [LUTE] Double headed lute pic? I came across this image recently - possibly a chap playing a double-headed lute. So (?) Dutch or English? Perhaps it's from a well-known painting? I only had a camera phone and it was shot at an angle to avoid the flash glaring against the glass. I've cropped the writing underneath- but you can't see it clearly anyway - it says something like 'micris' with some kind of diacritical twiddle over the letter c (if it is a c). http://www.pluckedturkeys.co.uk/dhlute.jpg Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Amazing Race lute sighting
I can't comment on who was on Amazing Race, but I do have the CD by Rondellus entitled Sabbatum, where they arranged Black Sabbath songs in a medieval style. Very entertaining for anyone who is a fan of both. I also have a CD of Black Sabbath tunes arranged in a Bhangra (East Indian) style, which didn't work out quite as well, although still listenable. mc - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" To: "Daniel Shoskes" ; "lute" Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 12:26 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Amazing Race lute sighting Most likely Robert Staak of the ens.Rondellus. RT - Original Message - From: "Daniel Shoskes" To: "lute" Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 11:18 AM Subject: [LUTE] Amazing Race lute sighting In yesterday's episode of the Amazing Race, there was a task in Estonia that involved an old "medieval" society. In the room was a lutenist playing a nice Renaissance lute with proper thumb under technique. Nice confluence of my favorite show and favorite pastime! Anyone know who he might be? DS -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: lute tasting, was Greenwich festival
Unless all the lutes were strung with similar strings, wouldn't this make a the comparison a little bit like comparing lutes made from apple wood with lutes made from orange wood? And wouldn't string tension also affect the brightness or lack thereof? It would seem to me (a complete lute newbie) that you could even make the same lute sound quite different by changing the strings and/or tension. Might be a good way to find the strings and tension that match the sound you are looking for. Too bad we can't set up a number of identical lutes with differents strings and a number of identical strings on different lutes, all played by an assortment of players. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 8 BANGER LUTE!
Congratulations on your new lute. It is always great when an item is as advertised. There wasn't a whole lot of response to your string question on the list, although you may have gotten lots of replies off list. I'm wondering why you decided to go with Nylgut? thanks, morgan - Original Message - From: "luther maynard" To: Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 2:57 PM Subject: [LUTE] 8 BANGER LUTE! The lute arrived safe n' sound at my door this am by Fed-x. Brian Yank the seller packed it very very well! It was completely as described. Nice doing business with someone who didn't lie about an instruments condition. Now, Nylgut,on order I'm a happy camper folks, been playing the lute since '92?93?... Anywho, the guitars are gonna get dusty for a while LM __ Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. [1]Try it now. -- References 1. http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MFESRP&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFESRP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Yet More Synthetic String Questions
I also have a number of questions about synthetic strings, such as: Are Nylgut (made by Aquila) more 'gut-like' than other synthetic strings, or is this just a name? What are carbon strings and how do they differ? Are the strings made by different manufacturers (e.g. Pyramid, Savarez, La Bella) very different, or pretty much the same? Is the difference (if there is any) in theses strings the sound, the feel, the tension, all of the above or something else? The idea of trying all the strings seems expensive and time consuming, and information seems a little scarce. I have noticed, however, that all the manufacturers seem pretty certain that their strings are the best. Inquiring ears (and fingers) need to know... thanks in advance, morgan -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: So, what you consider a "must have" publication?
Oddly enough, I always seem to see those publications that I don't currently own as must have. All kidding aside, for beginners (like myself), I'd recommend Diana Poulton's 'A Tutor for the Renaissance Lute'. It contains information about the lute, various types of tablature, and lots of graded musical examples. - Original Message - From: "Omer Katzir" To: "LuteNet list" Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2009 4:30 AM Subject: [LUTE] So, what you consider a "must have" publication? The title say it all, as lute players, which publications you see as must have? and of course, way? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Balletti moderni
This link didn't initially work for me either, but entering 'Fabritio Caroso' into the search window brought up 2 results that I could than access. - Original Message - From: "Luca Manassero" To: "Lute" Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 7:09 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Balletti moderni Hi, you should click on the link below :-) One of the first lines in that page says: "Click on picture for larger image, full item, or more versions.", i. e. click on the small Caroso's page. Then you can turn pages directly on screen. Ciao, Luca Mark Probert on 15-10-2009 1:07 wrote: Many thanks! LM> LM> - Fabritio Caroso, LM> http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/musdibib:@field(numb...@band(musdi+199)) LM> I am not sure how to get to the facsimile from that link... .. mark To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
Isn't this google thing something. From George Thorogood. (Blues Joint), Guitar Player | August 01, 2003 | Cohen, Elliot Stephen What originally drew you to your trademark Gibson ES-125 guitar? They're the only ones that I can play! They stopped making them in 1970, so be sure to put this in your article: "Please don't steal George's guitars." I also use a Dobro pick, and they don't make those anymore, either. I'm screwed if my ... One needs to pay for the rest of the article, but, hah, I think we got the good part! What type of Dobro pick, what colour, and which pocket he keeps it in are still a mystery. I suspect he was purposefully vague so as to protect the elusive secret of his sound. I think he is also implying that it's is ok to steal one of his guitars, as long as it's not an ES-125! Now we just need his type, guage, and tension of string... - Original Message - From: "David Tayler" To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 6:23 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age I have to say I would want to know exactly what kind of pick he had :) dt At 05:11 PM 10/12/2009, you wrote: I think the point George is making is that questions about minutiae are just that, and perhaps there are more important questions to be asked first. Sure the gear and technical details are interesting to many, but they easily get put before the music. While I'm not the biggest fan of George, I don't think that his choice of pick has a profound influence on the way he sounds. If I heard Django (ok, not possible, so maybe Stochelo Rosenberg) play a mind blowing solo, I certainly hope I would have the restraint not to ask, "That was great, what kind of pick was that you were using? And how exactly were you holding it? Ahhh.". On the other hand it can be difficult to ask meaningful non-technical, non-gear related questions. (e.g. "George, if your playing were a tree, what type of tree would it be and why?" or "What was the inspiration for 'I drink alone'?"). - Original Message - From: "vance wood" To: "Lute List >" ; "Stuart Walsh" Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 8:19 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age To someone who plays the instrument (what ever that instrument might be) things like picks, string tensions and string materials become important and interesting questions. As of this day and age discussion over the quality of reproduction Lutes, the way they are strung (octave or unison) and tunings with the use of additional frets are fodder for detailed discussion around here. If the professional being queried about such things thinks those subjects are irrelevant to the music then they are either lying or they do not want to reveal how they get the kind of sound that allows them to play the afore mentioned music in such a way that their performance becomes significant. After all thing are said and done, at least as far as "ancient music" is concerned, composers and their compositions and the matrix within which they occur have been discussed in great detail for many years. What is there about the music that we do not yet understand? What becomes important in this context is the performance; which brings us back to the original premise in the first sentence of this reply. - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" To: "Ron Andrico" Cc: ; Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 6:27 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age Ron Andrico wrote: I'll add my two cents worth on the other thread. In a Guitar Player magazine interview from the 80s, when asked what kind of pick he used, George Thorogood's response was, "If you can't think of something more interesting to talk about, this interview is over." I guess we're not discussing the same genre but amusing anyway. OK - but not the same genre and not really the same fundamental issue. As a parallel, if a lute player were asked for details of the string tensions they used, then maybe Thorogood's (?) response might be in order. But Crawford Young's ideas on plectra - on the face of it - seem to fundamentally different from just about all other plectra... on any instrument. It's a bit like saying of someone who plays the lute with gloves on: look forget the gloves, just listen to the music, that's all that really matters. Ron Andrico www.mingarda.com > Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 09:26:08 -0700 > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > From: dwinh...@comcast.net > Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age > > Very well put indeed. To realize the unforced, unedited perfection > that IS attainable- albeit by nearly superhumanly talented > performers- just go back to earlier "Golden Ages" of recording, like > the old 78 rpm days. Studio recordings as well as live recordings > done in one take. At the moment I am recalling the likes of Django > Reinhardt and Art Tatum (who at least were taped- earlier recordi
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
I think the point George is making is that questions about minutiae are just that, and perhaps there are more important questions to be asked first. Sure the gear and technical details are interesting to many, but they easily get put before the music. While I'm not the biggest fan of George, I don't think that his choice of pick has a profound influence on the way he sounds. If I heard Django (ok, not possible, so maybe Stochelo Rosenberg) play a mind blowing solo, I certainly hope I would have the restraint not to ask, "That was great, what kind of pick was that you were using? And how exactly were you holding it? Ahhh.". On the other hand it can be difficult to ask meaningful non-technical, non-gear related questions. (e.g. "George, if your playing were a tree, what type of tree would it be and why?" or "What was the inspiration for 'I drink alone'?"). - Original Message - From: "vance wood" To: "Lute List >" ; "Stuart Walsh" Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 8:19 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age To someone who plays the instrument (what ever that instrument might be) things like picks, string tensions and string materials become important and interesting questions. As of this day and age discussion over the quality of reproduction Lutes, the way they are strung (octave or unison) and tunings with the use of additional frets are fodder for detailed discussion around here. If the professional being queried about such things thinks those subjects are irrelevant to the music then they are either lying or they do not want to reveal how they get the kind of sound that allows them to play the afore mentioned music in such a way that their performance becomes significant. After all thing are said and done, at least as far as "ancient music" is concerned, composers and their compositions and the matrix within which they occur have been discussed in great detail for many years. What is there about the music that we do not yet understand? What becomes important in this context is the performance; which brings us back to the original premise in the first sentence of this reply. - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" To: "Ron Andrico" Cc: ; Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 6:27 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age Ron Andrico wrote: I'll add my two cents worth on the other thread. In a Guitar Player magazine interview from the 80s, when asked what kind of pick he used, George Thorogood's response was, "If you can't think of something more interesting to talk about, this interview is over." I guess we're not discussing the same genre but amusing anyway. OK - but not the same genre and not really the same fundamental issue. As a parallel, if a lute player were asked for details of the string tensions they used, then maybe Thorogood's (?) response might be in order. But Crawford Young's ideas on plectra - on the face of it - seem to fundamentally different from just about all other plectra... on any instrument. It's a bit like saying of someone who plays the lute with gloves on: look forget the gloves, just listen to the music, that's all that really matters. Ron Andrico www.mingarda.com > Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 09:26:08 -0700 > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > From: dwinh...@comcast.net > Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age > > Very well put indeed. To realize the unforced, unedited perfection > that IS attainable- albeit by nearly superhumanly talented > performers- just go back to earlier "Golden Ages" of recording, like > the old 78 rpm days. Studio recordings as well as live recordings > done in one take. At the moment I am recalling the likes of Django > Reinhardt and Art Tatum (who at least were taped- earlier recordings > were not only uneditable but the performers also had to tailer the > movements to the time constraints of what could fit on one side of a > 78 record surface. Without sacrificing performance standards!) > > Dan > > Unfortunately, this exceptional cleanliness is produced via a > huge number of digital edits which will be undetectable and therefore > in a sense, "natural." The problem with this is that the edits where > never conceived of or performed as an organic whole so that finished > product, while smooth, often lacks life. Imagine if Martin Luther > King Jr. would have recorded his "I have a dream" speech by reciting > it 50 times, re-saying certain problem clauses or stumbled words, > then having some audio engineer piece the various takes (some perhaps > comprising a single syllable) together with 900 edits. Yes, his > voice as an object might technically sound "better" once the quivers > and explosions were taken out, but would it have the same sense of > outrage and urgency? What would be the point? > > Chris > > -- >
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
Ron, With all those flashy edits, this is more MTV than EMTV. I suppose you are trying to appeal to the younger generation who have a limited attention span. Just kidding, I thought this was lovely. morgan p.s. I noticed tonight on EMTV the there is a special live tribute to the Ramones on cittern! Should be exciting! I think it is called, 'If you Baroque it, you'll pay for it'. It's on right after 'Laser Milano', the laser light tribute to Francesco. - Original Message - From: "Ron Andrico" To: ; Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 8:34 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age David: We have been reading your observations with some interest and wondering a little why you chose to make them proximate to our video posting yesterday. The nicely edited video you posted last week did in fact inspire Donna to try her hand at making a silk purse from the ridiculously bad windows movie maker, which introduced some abrupt cuts that were made worse by Youtube. But we're puzzled why you didn't make your comments in reference to your own video. Our video was from a session at a local recording venue, which is an acoustically pleasing old church. The audio, which was unedited, was by a professional engineer but the video was from a few cheap cameras, one of which had an amateur behind it. Nothing so smooth as the very professional steady hand that zoomed so well on your Monteverdi video. We really had nothing to prove here - no position on meantone tuning or anything else that would have prompted Zappa to say "shut up and play your guitar". We were just interested in the reaction people might have if we spent a few moments cleaning up the visuals and shared what we thought was some good music played well with conviction and commitment. The experiment has produced some interesting results. Yes, we're bridging the gap a bit, as we are professionals who still have the true amateur's love for the music, but we are by no means new. (You forget that I used to play in a band with your old chum Brad-the teller of stories, so I know I've been around longer.) A difference is that we have not had the funding and support that some other early music professionals enjoy. Our CDs have minimal editing because we simply can't afford to go the typical route and piece together bits from many takes. Our CD, Divine Amarillis, was recorded, mixed and finished in ten hours of studio time with no edits. Our Oxford CD was made in six weeks from idea to delivery of the manufactured CD. Our most recent CD took a little more time but each piece was a complete take. We may be old-fashioned but we think this approach gives the music a chance. We'll continue to experiment with visuals, since it seems to have become the standard, a fact reinforced by your pronouncement, but our music is the real thing. Best wishes, Ron Andrico www.mignarda.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The reason we play lutes
Even though all member of the trio intently they studied the score as they played, I couldn't help but notice small issues with their choice of phrasing (why chop up those long line into smaller phrases?). Too much showmanship and not enough value on the big picture. Their intonation was spot on, but the timing not so good. And was it just me, or did they totally flub the ending (perhaps nerves, maybe not enough rehearsing)? I suppose I'm being too hard on these chaps, it's just that been spoiled lately by listening to the 'Variations on a squeeky wheel" piece that was supposedly based on some actual sounds from Mozart's carriage (and the carriage was less than 5 years old at the time!). mc - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" To: "Lutelist" Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 9:53 AM Subject: [LUTE] The reason we play lutes http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3506Ex097uY RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute?
While I don't think I will try and string up my pots and pans, I would probably buy a set of pots that looked like various historic lutes. Imagine the theorbo for spaghetti! I think it could be done, although maybe not in carbon fiber. - Original Message - From: [1]howard posner To: [2]Eugene C. Braig IV Cc: [3]dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us ; [4]'morgan cornwall' ; [5]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2009 5:12 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute? On Oct 1, 2009, at 1:01 PM, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Merrill managed to pull off aluminum-backed instruments in the late 19th c: [6]http://www.mugwumps.com/aluminum.htm Of course, they did have a wooden strip at the edge of shell for joining soundboard. I've handled guitars and Neapolitan-type (kinda) mandolins from that shop. No thank you! I'm reminded of Baron's remark that he'd tried a lute with a bowl made of copper, and it sounded more like an old pot than true lute. -- References 1. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com 2. mailto:brai...@osu.edu 3. mailto:dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us 4. mailto:mcornw...@ns.sympatico.ca 5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. http://www.mugwumps.com/aluminum.htm To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute?
From what I can see of it, I think this lute looks great. Interestingly enough, the bowl is wood and it's the top that is carbon fiber. - Original Message - From: "Bruno Fournier" To: "Mark Probert" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 10:59 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute? I don't think you've understood the problem at hear.A It is not about the material, and BTW carbon fiber lute was done as an experiment by Charles Besnainou in France back in the 80's:A [1]http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.josephcurtinstudios .com/news/strad/apr99/images/lute.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.josephcurtin studios.com/news/strad/apr99/space_age_strad.htm&usg=__nnXRBHTPt0--zhTm jlhLhba8Gf8=&h=298&w=160&sz=9&hl=fr&start=1&sig2=JjeFDAVdfLHqf0aclugA7Q &um=1&tbnid=SPLP5eWzVXY20M:&tbnh=116&tbnw=62&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dluth%2B fibre%2Bde%2Bcarbone%2Bcharles%2Bbesnainou%26hl%3Dfr%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1& ei=iAzESojYINXOlAe0q-3vDg A it's about craftsmanship and demand.A It takes a long time to make a lute, and there is no demand A Bruno On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 7:59 PM, Mark Probert <[2]probe...@gmail.com> wrote: Morgan wrote: mc> I wonder if you could relatively inexpensively construct a lute (the bowl, mc> at minimum) from carbon fiber (like some acoustic guitars) or molded plastic mc> (like an Ovation guitar), and what it would sound like? mc> I was wondering this exact thing myself, with more than a passing interest (my brother-in-law is a materials scientist in the carbon-fibre / fiberglass game, with manufacturing contacts all around SE Asia). There are a number of open questions, such as mold costs, but the biggest would be the soundboard. A That would need to be wood. A And then there is the look of the thing. A My other thought on doing a instrument like that would be to add a pickup and end-pin jack out of the box (think: new market). Now for the business case :) I figure the price point would need to be in the USD$600 - 800 range to make this a viable option, including case. .. mark To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.josephcurtinstudios.com/news/strad/apr99/images/lute.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.josephcurtinstudios.com/news/strad/apr99/space_age_strad.htm&usg=__nnXRBHTPt0--zhTmjlhLhba8Gf8=&h=298&w=160&sz=9&hl=fr&start=1&sig2=JjeFDAVdfLHqf0aclugA7Q&um=1&tbnid=SPLP5eWzVXY20M:&tbnh=116&tbnw=62&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dluth%2Bfibre%2Bde%2Bcarbone%2Bcharles%2Bbesnainou%26hl%3Dfr%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1&ei=iAzESojYINXOlAe0q-3vDg 2. mailto:probe...@gmail.com 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: : Cost of a lute?
I wonder if you could relatively inexpensively construct a lute (the bowl, at minimum) from carbon fiber (like some acoustic guitars) or molded plastic (like an Ovation guitar), and what it would sound like? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Hans NeusiedleRe: Ein Newgeordent Kuenstlich Lautenbuch
In the upper right hand corner is a line entitled "PDF-Download". If you click on it it will ask you which pages to download. The default is all as one big pdf file. You also need to click the Ja (Yes) button indicating this file will only be used for private or academic purposes. Finally you need to allow cookies from this site for it to work. - Original Message - From: "wayne cripps" To: "Matteo Turri" Cc: Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 11:34 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Hans NeusiedleRe: Ein Newgeordent Kuenstlich Lautenbuch For those of us who are German-challenged, how do you get to the pdf page? Wayne On Aug 23, 2009, at 7:04 PM, Matteo Turri wrote: The Bavarian State Library provides a number of digitizations of sheet music from its music department. I still didn't have the time to browse them, but I noticed this: Neusidler, Hans: Ein Newgeordent Kuenstlich Lautenbuch [...] Nürnberg, 1536 here: http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0004/bsb00041542/images/ Can be also downloaded in pdf. M. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: cat will after kind
It fits, but that does not make it correct. Ahem, yes, er, well, if I had a penny for everytime I heard this...I'd be rolling in loot(s). To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thumb-under . . always?
Ned, There are some nice videos on YouTube (and elsewhere) that may help you. This video of Paul O'Dette has some fairly good hand shots. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G23_pcCZkZg I have a Ronn McFarlane DVD (Contemporary Lute Virtuoso) that is very helpful and easy to find (for a Lute DVD). I have also seen a video that has excellent shots of the flying fingers of Jacob Heringman, but I can't seem to find the link, maybe someone else can assist. All three of these players have different types of hands and it is interesting to see the similarities and differences in their technique. regards, morgan - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Friday, July 31, 2009 10:56 AM Subject: [LUTE] Thumb-under . . always? Making the transition from thumb-over to thumb-under technique has been interesting. Holding the lute (without a strap) seems more problematical, but seeing that the thumb and index finger pluck the string in much the same place (unlike thumb-over, at least as I used to use it) seems an advantage - at least from the standpoint of achieving a consistent sound. (Perhaps not always desired, however). But my question has to do with the position of the index finger and thumb after the finger has plucked a note. Adopting the hand position I see illustrated for thumb-under technique, and then striking a string with the thumb, it naturally starts and finishes its stroke behind and under the finger. But then it reflexively returns to its starting position and when the index finger strikes the string, it ends its stroke under and behind the thumb, before returning to its starting position in front of the thumb. Is this natural for this technique? Or does this depend upon hand size, length of thumb, etc. Ned __ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [english 100%] Re: Erzlaute
And the staff lines are very precise, as precise as courses, but the tablature is blank... What does that indicate? - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" To: "Karl-L. Eggert" ; "Jerzy Zak" Cc: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu List" Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 11:54 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: [english 100%] Re: Erzlaute The englaving is unusually precise. Look for the strange slots cut in the walls of the pegbox. especially the bass side. It sure looks like an angelique to me. RT - Original Message - From: "Jerzy Zak" To: "Karl-L. Eggert" Cc: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu List" Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 10:46 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: [english 100%] Re: Erzlaute Dear Karl, I'm looking invariable puzzled at the engraving for more then 20 years and I counted the pegs too. I recently converted (tempted by videos of some great modern players!) one of my swan neck lutes to single strings as well. I still have all the pegs on place, just single strings. It is possible. Thanks for the observation, Jurek On 2009-07-10, at 16:27, Karl-L. Eggert wrote: J, if you count the pegs on Adamo´s Lute there will be some more than 13 or 14. Karl - Original Message - From: "Jerzy Zak" To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 2:01 PM Subject: [english 100%] [LUTE] Re: Erzlaute On 2009-07-10, at 12:11, David Tayler wrote: The problem here is that single stringing is historical, .. Yeee... There are men who loves "chaos", they need it to breath, to florish, in the best possible terms. Others cannot live without order, alwaye seeking knowledge and establishing harmony, whatever is the evidence. Some are doing this and saying the other ;-) The past is unpredictable, to say anachronistically, and largely in our hands. Look at this: http://tinyurl.com/muyoco Single strings or double courses? Of course, we know the man, his opus, obviously a swan neck lute, French tuning, bla bla bla, etc., etc. But stop automatic thinking, click again. Wishful thinking, a florish of knowledge or chaos of evidence? Is it a trick or a very simple matter of fact? Single stringing is historical ;-))) J __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Apple Tuning Applet
I forwarded the original to Gordon, which mentioned the url: http://www.bitcount.com/cleartune/index.html And the original can also be found in the archives of the mailing list here: http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/maillist.html I can't comment on the tuner, however, as I've never used it. regards, morgan To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] First Lute Advice, part II
Hello Again, Let me begin by giving a big thank you to everyone for the replies. Many were sent to me and not the list, and all have been helpful and informative. I live in rural Nova Scotia, Canada, and I am not aware of any lutenists nearby, although I'm sure there may be some. I was told that there is 1 LSA member in this province. I did once, many years ago, take a course at Dalhousie University called "Guitar and Lute" which was taught by Carol van Feggelen. It was there that I learned a little bit about reading lute tablature. If I recall correctly, we mastered a virtuoso piece entitled 'Packington's Pound'. I also remember learning a tune by Holborne that was quite beautiful, with many suspended chords. Carol was kind enough to lend me a student lute for a couple of weeks. I found it hard to tune, hard to hold, and quickly decided that I'd stick to the guitar. That was many years ago and now I can hardly remember what it was like. I have always wanted to own and play the lute as I love it's sound. While I've listen to lute music from many eras I didn't realize all the subtle (and perhaps not so subtle) differences. So now that I am on the verge of purchasing a student lute I want to try and make the best decision possible. I play guitar without fingernails, and I hope to learn the thumb under technique. I plan to play solo, primarily for my own enjoyment, and I love both older renaissance music (I guess I'm thinking Milan/Milano) and the later music such as Dowland, as well as lots of other composers as well. I realize Milan is normally played on the vihuela, but I'm trying to figure out the repertoire and what is possible on a renaissance lute so that I fully understand what to expect. I am certainly quite ignorant about lute history, and renaissance/baroque music and composers. I may or may not be able to find a lute locally to play, but I definitely want to know as much as possible about the different models and styles, and what can be played on them before I commit to a certain model. As much as the thought of purchasing a lute scares me financially, the thought of owning two is out of the question. So all the advice has been most useful to me in sorting this out. I have a question regarding Howard Posner's comment that a 7 course lute with the 7th course tuned to D is a different instrument than the 7 course lute tuned to F. Is it actually a different instrument, or was that a matter of speech and one can use the same instrument by either restringing or retuning? If it's a case of restringing/retuning, can you simply retune, or does that depend on whether it's a gut or synthetic string? Again, I appreciate all the advice and information I have received. regards, morgan Lastly, while I'm sure everyone on this list is tired of the world's most/least popular lute joke, and nobody likes a beginner making bad jokes, I chuckled to myself when I expanded the tired, "Lutenists spend half their time tuning their lute and half their time playing out of tune". As I mentioned, it's just a personal bit of long-winded humour, please don't be offended. And with no further ado: Lutenists spend 1/5th of their time tuning their lute, 1/5th of their time playing out of tune, 1/5th of their time trying to figure out how to hold onto their lute, 1/5th of their time wishing they had more or less courses, and 1/5th of their time wondering how they will pay for it. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] First lute advice
Hello, I am looking for advice on a first student lute, in this case a renaissance lute. If this email is inappropriate for this list, or there is a better place to post it, please let me know. I have been reading about lutes on the internet, but still have a lot of questions. I am a amateur guitar player, and have played classical, acoustic and electric guitars for many years. I have listened to lute and vihuela music for years, but very little hands on experience. I am quite familiar with guitars but don't really know that much about lutes and have a number of questions. I have played some lute tab on the guitar by tuning the g string to f# and capoing at the third fret, as well as playing some tunes on the guitar. Number of courses: Of the 6, 7, and 8 course lutes, it would seem that a 7 course lute would be most practical. It would allow me to play the earlier repertoire as well as most of the Dowland pieces. It doesn't seem like there is a whole lot to be gained from going to an 8 course lute. Is this reasonable? Are 6 and 7 course lutes tuned differently (unison vs octave course)? Scale length: I don't have large hands, and with a classical guitar the scale length makes a difference with some chords and stretches. Renaissance lutes seem to vary in scale length from 540mm to 670mm. Besides the tuning of the open strings, are the larger scale lengths harder to play with small hands? With guitars, often the intonation suffers with shorter scale lengths, is this true of lutes as well? Body Size/Ergonomics: When I look at pictures of lutes they look to be of a similar shape, but it's hard to tell if the body sizes are different. Does the body size vary? Does it vary with the scale length? Alto lutes do appear to have a smaller body, so small that it actually appears harder to hold. Is there a body size that would be most comfortable to hold? Does the body depth differ, and if so, is a shallower lute more comfortable to hold? Ergonomics: I think comfort/ergonmics are very important. Besides the body shape and size, and the scale length, are there any other factors affecting ergonomics?With some guitars, especially larger bodies with a sharp edge, I find them quite uncomfortable for my right arm and can only play them for so long before my circulation is restricted. Is the sharp edge of the lute top an issue? Number of ribs: All of the student lutes I have looked at have either 9 or 11 ribs. What effect does the number of ribs have, if any? Are there any other things I should be thinking about? It is probably clear that I only know enough to be dangerous. Also, even a student lute is a big investment for me and I hope to make as good a choice as possible. Any and all comments and advice is appreciated with thanks, morgan -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
