[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought

[Martyn Hodgson]

Dalla Casa, mid 18thC seems to use something like this

  MH
  
Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  Jaroslaw
Well that could be the explanation then, medium length nails, and 
perhaps the string length meant the use of quite low tesnion strings. 
Although Rob does say that somewhere on Van Edwards site there is 
mention (or a painting) of a thumb or finger attachment for playing 
theorbo. I couldn't find any detail about that, but I was not sure 
where to look. If this was specific to theorbo, it could give an 
indication of the therobo type tuning some have suggested for these 
long string length lutes, but it's a very long shot, I fear.
>
>> Does this mean that this instrument could have been tuned in the
>> "theorbo"
>> tuning mentioned by Baron?
>> Are Vidar Boye Hansen
>>
Anthony

Le 8 févr. 08 à 14:02, Jarosław Lipski a écrit :

> Anthony,
> Many years ago when I was at the stage of transformation from 
> guitar to lute playing I tried playing my lute with normal (medium 
> length) finger nails (influenced by Picinnini's remarks). The 
> result showed up very quickly - the fingerboard was covered with 
> small marks in the place where I used to keep my right hand. I was 
> very surprised because I was trying not to touch the wood with my 
> fingernails while playing, but apparently the soft wood of the 
> fingerboard not covered with any guitar-like hard varnish, the low 
> tension and rather low string action in the place where the right 
> hand is normally kept, made it possible to scratch my instrument in 
> a very short period of time. The marks appeared mainly in the 
> places where fingers i, m, a played but not under the thumb. This 
> however could be due to the shape of the thumb nail and the fact 
> that I stopped experiment after short playing time ;-)
> Best wishes
>
> Jaroslaw
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 8:46 AM
> To: Edward Martin; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Martyn Hodgson
> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - 
> another thought
>
> Ed
> I am still surprised that the long nails succeeded in marking
> through the strings. Does anyone know of guitare players leaving
> similar marks?
> Do you not think that the luthist might have invented some sort of
> extentions to his fingers? These things could be made by anyone.
> Look at these http://www.strum-n-comfort.com/ 
> sharktoothpickproducts.html
> They don't look beyond the skills of a late Baroque player to
> construct. Whether they did or not, is another question.
> Anthony
>
> Le 8 févr. 08 à 00:26, Edward Martin a écrit :
>
>> No trouble at all, Martyn.
>>
>> Yes, the marks clearly indicate that it was played as a 13 course
>> lute, as
>> I have been saying. It shows a hundred or so thumb nail marks near
>> the
>> rose, and the corresponding marks from finger playing while in this
>> position. Also, if one were strumming with a plectrum, the marks
>> would be
>> mostly vertical, but these marks clearly, from the 5th or 6th
>> course, down
>> to the 13th, are somewhat circular, as if one held his/her hand in 1
>> position, and moved the thumb up or down to various courses,
>> accordingly. So, in courses 8 & 9, the marks are closer to the
>> rose, but
>> marks around the 6th or 13th are clearly closer back, showing an arc
>> pattern with the thumb. It fits perfectly.
>>
>> The marks are from a hand position, as they match perfectly, and
>> not from a
>> strumming plectrum. Your ideas are excellent, and I would have
>> also asked
>> the same questions, but all in all, the marks match what a baroque
>> lutenist
>> would have done, with his thumb sticking out to towards the neck, and
>> playing the bass courses while keeping the hand in position. It is
>> amazing.
>>
>> The instruments are clearly baroque lutes, not anything similar to 
>> the
>> pictures you showed. Also, they were kept in the attic for a "very
>> long
>> time". The wear marks clearly coincide with at least 2 different
>> baroque
>> lute players on the smaller of the 2 lutes. The larger lute shows a
>> musician playing close to the bridge.
>>
>> ed
>>
>> At 02:55 PM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
>>> Thank you. Sorry to press you a wee bit but do you think it was
>>> played in
>>> its 13 course form because of the pattern of the marks? ie do they
>>> dissapear or become significantly fainter under where the 1st to 
>>> 13th
>>> courses would run?
>>>
>&g

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought

[Anthony Hind]

Jaroslaw
	Well that could be the explanation then, medium length nails, and  
perhaps the string length meant the use of quite low tesnion strings.  
Although Rob does say that somewhere on Van Edwards site there is  
mention (or a painting) of a  thumb or finger attachment for playing  
theorbo. I couldn't find any detail about that, but I was not sure  
where to look. If this was specific to theorbo, it could give an  
indication of the therobo type tuning some have suggested for these  
long string length lutes, but it's a very long shot, I fear.



Does this mean that this instrument could have been tuned in the
"theorbo"
tuning mentioned by Baron?
Are Vidar Boye Hansen


Anthony

Le 8 févr. 08 à 14:02, Jarosław Lipski a écrit :


Anthony,
Many years ago when I was at the stage of transformation from  
guitar to lute playing I tried playing my lute with normal (medium  
length) finger nails (influenced by Picinnini's remarks). The  
result showed up very quickly - the fingerboard was covered with  
small marks in the place where I used to keep my right hand. I was  
very surprised because I was trying not to touch the wood with my  
fingernails while playing, but apparently the soft wood of the  
fingerboard not covered with any guitar-like hard varnish, the low  
tension and rather low string action in the place where the right  
hand is normally kept, made it possible to scratch my instrument in  
a very short period of time. The marks appeared mainly in the  
places where fingers i, m, a played but not under the thumb. This  
however could be due to the shape of the thumb nail and the fact  
that I stopped experiment after short playing time ;-)

Best wishes

Jaroslaw

-Original Message-
From: Anthony Hind [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 8:46 AM
To: Edward Martin; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Martyn Hodgson
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota -  
another thought


Ed
 I am still surprised that the long nails succeeded in marking
through the strings. Does anyone know of guitare players leaving
similar marks?
Do you not think that the luthist might have invented some sort of
extentions to his fingers? These things could be made by anyone.
Look at these http://www.strum-n-comfort.com/ 
sharktoothpickproducts.html

They don't look beyond the skills of a late Baroque player to
construct. Whether they did or not, is another question.
Anthony

Le 8 févr. 08 à 00:26, Edward Martin a écrit :


No trouble at all, Martyn.

Yes, the marks clearly indicate that it was played as a 13 course
lute, as
I have been saying.  It shows a hundred or so thumb nail marks near
the
rose, and the corresponding marks from finger playing while in this
position.  Also, if one were strumming with a plectrum,  the marks
would be
mostly vertical, but these marks clearly, from the 5th or 6th
course, down
to the 13th, are somewhat circular, as if one held his/her hand in 1
position, and moved the thumb up or down to various courses,
accordingly.  So, in courses 8 & 9, the marks are closer to the
rose, but
marks around the 6th or 13th are clearly closer back, showing an arc
pattern with the thumb.  It fits perfectly.

The marks are from a hand position, as they match perfectly, and
not from a
strumming plectrum.  Your ideas are excellent, and I would have
also asked
the same questions, but all in all, the marks match what a baroque
lutenist
would have done, with his thumb sticking out to towards the neck, and
playing the bass courses while keeping the hand in position.  It is
amazing.

The instruments are clearly baroque lutes, not anything similar to  
the

pictures you showed.  Also, they were kept in the attic for a "very
long
time".  The wear marks clearly coincide with at least 2 different
baroque
lute players on the smaller of the 2 lutes.  The larger lute shows a
musician playing close to the bridge.

ed

At 02:55 PM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

Thank you. Sorry to press you a wee bit but do you think it was
played in
its 13 course form because of the pattern of the marks? ie do they
dissapear or become significantly fainter under where the 1st to  
13th

courses would run?

Even if so, its last played state and that causing the marks might
still
have been from using it as a guitar, but one with extended basses.
You'll
know that from the mid 19th century extended bass guitars became
relatively popular with 10 courses being common (Mertz, Coste,
Padovetz,
Dubez, Bayer et al) and later towards the end of the century more
courses
were added.  I recall of picture of Heinrich Albert and his chums
playing
a rum collection of such guitars. Various websites eg
<http://www.harpguitars.net>www.harpguitars.net  has many pictures.

MH

Edward Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Once again, I doubt it very much. The marks are clearly made from
playing
a 13 course lute. And, it is documented that the instruments were
in 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Edlinger Lutes in South Dakota - another thought

[Edward Martin]

God question, Anthony.  In absence of any evidence anywhere of making 
"thumb picks" for lutes,, I would highly doubt that this was done.


ed



At 08:46 AM 2/8/2008 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote:

Ed
I am still surprised that the long nails succeeded in marking
through the strings. Does anyone know of guitare players leaving
similar marks?
Do you not think that the luthist might have invented some sort of
extentions to his fingers? These things could be made by anyone.
Look at these http://www.strum-n-comfort.com/sharktoothpickproducts.html
They don't look beyond the skills of a late Baroque player to
construct. Whether they did or not, is another question.
Anthony

Le 8 févr. 08 à 00:26, Edward Martin a écrit :


No trouble at all, Martyn.

Yes, the marks clearly indicate that it was played as a 13 course
lute, as
I have been saying.  It shows a hundred or so thumb nail marks near
the
rose, and the corresponding marks from finger playing while in this
position.  Also, if one were strumming with a plectrum,  the marks
would be
mostly vertical, but these marks clearly, from the 5th or 6th
course, down
to the 13th, are somewhat circular, as if one held his/her hand in 1
position, and moved the thumb up or down to various courses,
accordingly.  So, in courses 8 & 9, the marks are closer to the
rose, but
marks around the 6th or 13th are clearly closer back, showing an arc
pattern with the thumb.  It fits perfectly.

The marks are from a hand position, as they match perfectly, and
not from a
strumming plectrum.  Your ideas are excellent, and I would have
also asked
the same questions, but all in all, the marks match what a baroque
lutenist
would have done, with his thumb sticking out to towards the neck, and
playing the bass courses while keeping the hand in position.  It is
amazing.

The instruments are clearly baroque lutes, not anything similar to the
pictures you showed.  Also, they were kept in the attic for a "very
long
time".  The wear marks clearly coincide with at least 2 different
baroque
lute players on the smaller of the 2 lutes.  The larger lute shows a
musician playing close to the bridge.

ed

At 02:55 PM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

Thank you. Sorry to press you a wee bit but do you think it was
played in
its 13 course form because of the pattern of the marks? ie do they
dissapear or become significantly fainter under where the 1st to 13th
courses would run?

Even if so, its last played state and that causing the marks might
still
have been from using it as a guitar, but one with extended basses.
You'll
know that from the mid 19th century extended bass guitars became
relatively popular with 10 courses being common (Mertz, Coste,
Padovetz,
Dubez, Bayer et al) and later towards the end of the century more
courses
were added.  I recall of picture of Heinrich Albert and his chums
playing
a rum collection of such guitars. Various websites eg
www.harpguitars.net  has many pictures.

MH

Edward Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Once again, I doubt it very much. The marks are clearly made from
playing
a 13 course lute. And, it is documented that the instruments were
in the
castle attic for "a very long time".

ed



At 08:46 AM 2/7/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

Thanks for this. Well if not 'Wandervogel' as such (tho' I read the
movement started in the last decade of the 19thC - well before
1907),
perhaps guitar like strung nevertheless?

MH

Edward Martin wrote:
Good idea, but no, absolutely unlikely. They were documented to
be in
storage, and were removed for observation in 1907, when a
"Heckel" looked
at them, and put back into storage in the castle..

ed

.At 01:57 PM 2/6/2008 +, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

Thank you for this.

Just a thought, but the marks on the belly over and above the
rose sound
a bit like the sort of marks left by a strumming guitarist.
Could it have
been used as a 'Wandervogel' lute/guitar in the early20th
century? I
realise it's got many more than 6 courses but I presume they
might not
have felt the need to string them all if it was just, say, a son
of the
house having a strum on the old lute he found in the
attic..

MH


Edward Martin wrote:
Dear ones,

I have an interesting story.

Dan Larson and I just returned from the National Museum of
Music, in

South

Dakota. It was an absolutely fantastic experience. They have
many, many
lutes by Harton, Diefenbrouchar, Sellas, Edlinger. They also
have guitars
by Stradivarius, Sellas and Voboam. Many violins by
Stradivarius, Ganeri,
Amati, etc. It was unbelievable.

The museum let us have full access to the Edlingers! We examined
them for
about 10 hours, and I got to hold them in the playing position,
etc. They
have been examined in the 1970's by Lundberg and others. One is
76 cm
mensur, the other is 81 or 82 cm, and they were perhaps
originally by
Tieffenbrucker, or perhaps a Bolognese maker. Later, they were
converted
to 13 course baroque lutes by Thomas Edlinger; the l