[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Post French and Pre Weiss: what shall we call it?
How about just calling it late 11-course literature? ...just a thought: inclusive of anything up to and including Kellner, exclusive of 13 course literature (which encompasses most Galant?) trj -Original Message- From: Daniel Shoskes dshos...@mac.com To: BAROQUE-LUTE baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sun, Sep 12, 2010 8:37 am Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Post French and Pre Weiss: what shall we call it? Having spent much happy time on my 11 course lute playing the music of Reusner, Conradi, Kellner, Weichenberger and St. Luc, it dawns on me that we don't really have a good descriptor for the period. It is after the French precieux and Brise styles (but has some elements), brings in more of a cantabile Italian relationship between melody and bass line but doesn't go all the way to the Gallant emphasis on melody (I am sure I have made many a musicologist cringe with my oversimplifications here). Many recordings that include pieces from the period are titled German Baroque Lute Music, or something similar, but that of course doesn't give a fair geographic representation to the Czech, Silesian, Swedish and Belgian composers. Transitional would be a good descriptive term but alas has already been coapted by those funny tuning systems between Renaissance and d minor. Any ideas? Danny To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Post French and Pre Weiss: what shall we call it?
Hi Danny, Arto and all, This is an interesting subject indeed a will nd I agree with Arto in that putting borderlines between musical periods can be confusing. However, it's clear there was a particular style between French and German styles and perhaps it deserves its own name! I had thought in 'second transition' but was not very happy with this idea, as I think they were two very different kinds of transition. I like Arto's proposal 'Austrian', as Austria was the place where this styles flourished, although it's not 'politically correct' in relation to some non-Austrian composers, such as Saint-Luc and Losy. However, if we can say Reusner was French, why not? On the other hand, 'Imperial' wouldn't be a historically accurate term, as long as I know, as the Austrian Empire officially started later, unless we're talking about the Holy Roman Empire, which comprised a much wider extension. 'Hapsburg' would be a confusing term as well, as we can call like this many other periods, such as the Spanish Renaissance... I look forward to read some other ideas and feedback, Nicolás -Mensaje original- De: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] En nombre de wikla Enviado el: viernes, 17 de septiembre de 2010 15:47 Para: Daniel Shoskes CC: BAROQUE-LUTE Asunto: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Post French and Pre Weiss: what shall we call it? Hi Danny and the b-List, thanks Danny for your very interesting subject! I've been waiting for eager comments, but nothing have I seen yet... So I must start, and perhaps also provoke a little... :) It really is quite ambigious to put borderlines between the periods of music, and it is even more difficult to name those periods. Everything mixes and blands, always. In your case: Ennemond G. is clearly in the hard core French style, perhaps Dennis too. But what about Mouton, not to speak of Gallot le jeune. And then we have the German Reusner, still very French most often. And then we come to Losy, a little less French, but very far off Weiss. And from Losy we go to the other names you listed (see below). Not yet rococo, not any more so French, much more cantabile italiano... I think that perhaps the adjective Austrian or perhaps even Imperial (;-) could be used. At least most of the places, where this style flowered were governed by the Hapsburger Kaiser living in Vienna...;-) Another view is that - in my opinion - a period shoud not be named by its neighboroughing periods: transition between Gaultier and Weiss mocks and lessens the value of the wonderful period we are talkig of! Agree? And as far as I have understood, the word transitional in the case you talk, refers mostly to the changing tunings in that time. So even that period is not transitional in musical sense, but only in the technical sense: testing the tuning alternatives. There are actually here and there some of the very same pieces in different tuning patterns. So my suggestion is Austrian. It is not optimal, I agree, But neither is the word French referring to the vast repertoire in that style composed around our Europe. And are we going to save the adjective German to refer to Weiss, Falkenhagen and their gang of 13's? Comments? All the best (= Alles gut) Arto On Sun, 12 Sep 2010 12:36:45 -0400, Daniel Shoskes dshos...@mac.com wrote: Having spent much happy time on my 11 course lute playing the music of Reusner, Conradi, Kellner, Weichenberger and St. Luc, it dawns on me that we don't really have a good descriptor for the period. It is after the French precieux and Brise styles (but has some elements), brings in more of a cantabile Italian relationship between melody and bass line but doesn't go all the way to the Gallant emphasis on melody (I am sure I have made many a musicologist cringe with my oversimplifications here). Many recordings that include pieces from the period are titled German Baroque Lute Music, or something similar, but that of course doesn't give a fair geographic representation to the Czech, Silesian, Swedish and Belgian composers. Transitional would be a good descriptive term but alas has already been coapted by those funny tuning systems between Renaissance and d minor. Any ideas? Danny To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Post French and Pre Weiss: what shall we call it?
Hi Danny and the b-List, thanks Danny for your very interesting subject! I've been waiting for eager comments, but nothing have I seen yet... So I must start, and perhaps also provoke a little... :) It really is quite ambigious to put borderlines between the periods of music, and it is even more difficult to name those periods. Everything mixes and blands, always. In your case: Ennemond G. is clearly in the hard core French style, perhaps Dennis too. But what about Mouton, not to speak of Gallot le jeune. And then we have the German Reusner, still very French most often. And then we come to Losy, a little less French, but very far off Weiss. And from Losy we go to the other names you listed (see below). Not yet rococo, not any more so French, much more cantabile italiano... I think that perhaps the adjective Austrian or perhaps even Imperial (;-) could be used. At least most of the places, where this style flowered were governed by the Hapsburger Kaiser living in Vienna...;-) Another view is that - in my opinion - a period shoud not be named by its neighboroughing periods: transition between Gaultier and Weiss mocks and lessens the value of the wonderful period we are talkig of! Agree? And as far as I have understood, the word transitional in the case you talk, refers mostly to the changing tunings in that time. So even that period is not transitional in musical sense, but only in the technical sense: testing the tuning alternatives. There are actually here and there some of the very same pieces in different tuning patterns. So my suggestion is Austrian. It is not optimal, I agree, But neither is the word French referring to the vast repertoire in that style composed around our Europe. And are we going to save the adjective German to refer to Weiss, Falkenhagen and their gang of 13's? Comments? All the best (= Alles gut) Arto On Sun, 12 Sep 2010 12:36:45 -0400, Daniel Shoskes dshos...@mac.com wrote: Having spent much happy time on my 11 course lute playing the music of Reusner, Conradi, Kellner, Weichenberger and St. Luc, it dawns on me that we don't really have a good descriptor for the period. It is after the French precieux and Brise styles (but has some elements), brings in more of a cantabile Italian relationship between melody and bass line but doesn't go all the way to the Gallant emphasis on melody (I am sure I have made many a musicologist cringe with my oversimplifications here). Many recordings that include pieces from the period are titled German Baroque Lute Music, or something similar, but that of course doesn't give a fair geographic representation to the Czech, Silesian, Swedish and Belgian composers. Transitional would be a good descriptive term but alas has already been coapted by those funny tuning systems between Renaissance and d minor. Any ideas? Danny To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
