[LUTE] Fw: Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé
Response inserted in text below MH --- On Sun, 8/6/08, Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé To: Jarosław Lipski [EMAIL PROTECTED], Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED], lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 8 June, 2008, 3:09 PM Jaroslaw and Martyn I believe the difference in calculation comes from Martyn using a stiffish high twist (rather than a rope). This can possibly be pushed through quite a narrow hole, where a flexible rope would not go through. Mimmo is taking the calculation for a rope diameter as being 80% of the size of the hole, as Segerman seems to have said. Perhaps, Segerman's ropes at that time were unsmoothed, perhaps not. Then, we know that ropes have a higher degree of flexibity than stiff gut. Thus when you raise the rope up to tension, it will become thinner than its original size. So it will be thinner than 80%, perhaps around 70% to 75% (if it began at 80% of the size of the lute hole). Now, this would be what would happen, with the type of stringing that Satoh uses (Pistoys). However, Martyn seems to be using a stiff gut high twist of 1,4 that he thinks will go through a hole of 1,5mm. Have you actually tried that Martyn? Yes, I've explained previously how hole sizes are often measured (eg by inserting known diameters -often a drill bit), so a hole measuring 1.5mm by this method is certainly at least 1.5 and will indeed take a 1.4mm string (if uniform diameter and stiffish) - the trick is to also rotate when putting in - so that it's not the higher static coefficient of friction which is acting. Now according to Charles Besnainou, inharmonicity is caused by the stiffness of the string at the bridge and the nut. I simplify, but the sound waves encounter the greater stiffness at the nut and bridge end, and some wave forms are returned out of phase, and these partially cancel the initiating wave form (particularly the high frequencies) givin inharmonicity. If the high twist and the rope are at normal high tension, the result will be far worse for the hightwist, as it will be stiffer. However, perhaps you can lower the tension more on a high twist, before it loses its ability to vibrate. As you lower the tension, so the stiffness will presumably decrease at the nut and the bridge. Perhaps at a very low tension this means that the hightwist is not so inharmonic as it was previously. Indeed, the inharmonicity is less (as Segerman in fact demonstrated many years ago) MH This sort of thing can be measured. I will ask Charles whether he has done comparative studies of such strings at lower tensions. Martyn, what is the sound like of your high twist at 1,5Kg? Does it sound good. Could you make a recording for us? Have you actually tried using a 1,4 string with a 1,5 hole? I think you mistake my position if you think I'm uncritically advocating this sort of stringing, I merely wish to draw attention to it as an option to loaded and which can perhaps too easily be overlooked (some others have also made the same point). I have, however, strung a trial lute this way (a 9 course at 64cm in the old tuning C D F G c f a d g with the 9th down to C at A415). I'm not wholly satisfied with the result but this may well be because I devote insufficient continuous time to developing the necessary low tension technique (v close to bridge etc) since I use more 'normal' tensions for concert (ie mostly continuo) work. In fact my subjective preference continues to lean towards loaded basses but, as said, I think it important that we try to explore all reasonable avenues. MH PS I have no recording facilities! More importantly, even if this CAN be done, is it comfortable? Is it hard to push the string through (even if it is possible)? Would you want to do that each time you put a string on your lute? If this is not the case why did they not make slightly larger holes? Have I in any way twisted your hypothesis. I tried to state what I understand, and the possible consequences. Please let us know your thoughts. Anthony Le 8 juin 08 à 15:35, Jarosław Lipski a écrit : Hi Martyn, I just talked to Mimmo. He explained that the tension of 0.9 till 1.2 Kg came out from mathematical calculations made by Ephraim Segerman considering the bridge holes of surviving lutes. He calculated some 1.2 till 1.5 Kg. but this was made considered the density of a low twist gut (that unstretched at all). He made new calculations considering the only alternative to the loading of a gut that is stretchable and less dens
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé
Hi Martyn, I just talked to Mimmo. He explained that the tension of 0.9 till 1.2 Kg came out from mathematical calculations made by Ephraim Segerman considering the bridge holes of surviving lutes. He calculated some 1.2 till 1.5 Kg. but this was made considered the density of a low twist gut (that unstretched at all). He made new calculations considering the only alternative to the loading of a gut that is stretchable and less dens roped string. This is why tension would be around 1 Kg each bass string on such historical lutes. Best Jaroslaw -Original Message- From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 12:45 PM To: 'Lute'; Jarosław Lipski Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé I don't know where Mimmo gets the tension of 0.9 - 1.0Kg from, but as an example: take a Dm tuned lute at 68cm (with top course f' tuned as reasonably high as it will go without excessive breakages allows a pitch of A415) with a bass string hole allowing a max string of diameter of 1.4mm gives a string tension of around 1.45Kg. MH To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/ loaded/Demi-filé
--- On Sun, 8/6/08, Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé To: Jarosław Lipski [EMAIL PROTECTED], Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED], lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 8 June, 2008, 3:09 PM Jaroslaw and Martyn I believe the difference in calculation comes from Martyn using a stiffish high twist (rather than a rope). This can possibly be pushed through quite a narrow hole, where a flexible rope would not go through. Mimmo is taking the calculation for a rope diameter as being 80% of the size of the hole, as Segerman seems to have said. Perhaps, Segerman's ropes at that time were unsmoothed, perhaps not. Then, we know that ropes have a higher degree of flexibity than stiff gut. Thus when you raise the rope up to tension, it will become thinner than its original size. So it will be thinner than 80%, perhaps around 70% to 75% (if it began at 80% of the size of the lute hole). Now, this would be what would happen, with the type of stringing that Satoh uses (Pistoys). However, Martyn seems to be using a stiff gut high twist of 1,4 that he thinks will go through a hole of 1,5mm. Have you actually tried that Martyn? Yes, I've explained previously how hole sizes are often measured (eg by inserting known diameters -often a drill bit), so a hole measuring 1.5mm by this method is certainly at least 1.5 and will indeed take a 1.4mm string (if uniform diameter and stiffish) - the trick is to also rotate when putting in - so that it's not the higher static coefficient of friction which is acting. Now according to Charles Besnainou, inharmonicity is caused by the stiffness of the string at the bridge and the nut. I simplify, but the sound waves encounter the greater stiffness at the nut and bridge end, and some wave forms are returned out of phase, and these partially cancel the initiating wave form (particularly the high frequencies) givin inharmonicity. If the high twist and the rope are at normal high tension, the result will be far worse for the hightwist, as it will be stiffer. However, perhaps you can lower the tension more on a high twist, before it loses its ability to vibrate. As you lower the tension, so the stiffness will presumably decrease at the nut and the bridge. Perhaps at a very low tension this means that the hightwist is not so inharmonic as it was previously. Indeed, the inharmonicity is less (as Segerman in fact demonstrated many years ago) MH This sort of thing can be measured. I will ask Charles whether he has done comparative studies of such strings at lower tensions. Martyn, what is the sound like of your high twist at 1,5Kg? Does it sound good. Could you make a recording for us? Have you actually tried using a 1,4 string with a 1,5 hole? I think you mistake my position if you think I'm uncritically advocating this sort of stringing, I merely wish to draw attention to it as an option to loaded and which can perhaps too easily be overlooked (some others have also made the same point). I have, however, strung a trial lute this way (a 9 course at 64cm in the old tuning C D F G c f a d g with the 9th down to C at A415). I'm not wholly satisfied with the result but this may well be because I devote insufficient continuous time to developing the necessary low tension technique (v close to bridge etc) since I use more 'normal' tensions for concert (ie mostly continuo) work. In fact my subjective preference continues to lean towards loaded basses but, as said, I think it important that we try to explore all reasonable avenues. MH PS I have no recording facilities! More importantly, even if this CAN be done, is it comfortable? Is it hard to push the string through (even if it is possible)? Would you want to do that each time you put a string on your lute? If this is not the case why did they not make slightly larger holes? Have I in any way twisted your hypothesis. I tried to state what I understand, and the possible consequences. Please let us know your thoughts. Anthony Le 8 juin 08 à 15:35, Jarosław Lipski a écrit : Hi Martyn, I just talked to Mimmo. He explained that the tension of 0.9 till 1.2 Kg came out from mathematical calculations made by Ephraim Segerman considering the bridge holes of surviving lutes. He calculated some 1.2 till 1.5 Kg. but this was made considered the density of a low twist gut (that unstretched at all). He made new calculations considering the only alternative to the loading of a gut that is stretchable and less dens roped string. This is why tension would be around 1 Kg each bass string on such historical lutes. Best Jaroslaw -Original Message- From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[EMAIL
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [ LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé
Well, neither do I, but this is what he says I am afraid. I understood you very well Martyn. Do check my email. I've never said that you tune your bases to 2.5 kg. But it's not a very low tension yet. Best Jaroslaw -Original Message- From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 12:45 PM To: 'Lute'; Jarosław Lipski Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé I don't know where Mimmo gets the tension of 0.9 - 1.0Kg from, but as an example: take a Dm tuned lute at 68cm (with top course f' tuned as reasonably high as it will go without excessive breakages allows a pitch of A415) with a bass string hole allowing a max string of diameter of 1.4mm gives a string tension of around 1.45Kg. Incidentally, I wasn't saying 2.5Kg was a 'low' tension but that with a nominal tension of 2.5Kg, then basses at 1.5Kg wld be relatively low. By a nominal tension of 2.5Kg, I mean the generality of fingered courses (not the low basses) are around 2.5Kg. MH --- On Fri, 6/6/08, Jarosław Lipski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Jarosław Lipski [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé To: 'Lute' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 6 June, 2008, 11:29 AM Dear Martyn, No, no, I wasn't talking about tension in kilograms. I wrote about equal tension to touch which is the same as to feel I suppose. It is absolutely correct that the bases would have different and lower tension than trebles. What I suggested however was that the so called low tension which means the tension of lowest bases around 0.9 - 1.0 kg (as Mimmo suggests) would stand in contradiction to the very known statements about tuning the treble string as high as it goes (at least for average lutes). General nominal tension about 2.5 kg is not a very low tension yet. Obviously the other possibility is that the guts produced than were of different quality - much more flexible. Best Jaroslaw -Original Message- From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 10:13 AM To: Jarosław Lipski Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé Equal feel is not the same as equal tension where different gauge strings are concerned: thicker strings are stiffer at the same tension and thus 'feel' different requiring a lower tension to 'feel' the same. Whilst not suggesting loaded strings are not a good, or even the best, option, let's not rush to a conclusion that low tension unloaded gut (when plucked close to the bridge) is also not a reasonable option. I'd like to see many more trying this option. On my trial lute I use the lowest basses at 1.5KG/Newtons with a general nominal tension of around 2.5. MH --- On Thu, 5/6/08, Jarosław Lipski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Jarosław Lipski [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé To: 'Lute' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 5 June, 2008, 8:05 PM Dear Chris, Damian, Martin and Anthony, Unfortunately we are still missing some very important information. Finding the truth about 16/17 c. strings can be a very difficult matter because we lack proof due to its character. In terms of archeology we have only one excavation till now - the Mest string which even wasn't carbon tested. The iconographical evidence, as Chris pointed, shows rather that the string color wasn't dependent on a loading process, but probably was a side effect of marketing policies of some string makers wanting to distinguish their product (as Rubens portrait seems to suggest). It seems to me that Damian gives us a very good point differentiating dyeing and loading processes. Dyeing is the process of imparting colour to a textile material in loose fibre, yarn, cloth or garment form by treatment with a dye. Loading involves insertion of some substance into another. In case of the strings it would mean that some metal particles would penetrate deeply the gut itself, not only the surface and it has nothing to do with the colour itself. So what evidence do we have? The bass bridge holes on some old lutes that are too small to contain the proper diameter gut string. It's been suggested that this is due to the fact that the bass strings were loaded (to increase their specific weight), or the plain gut of smaller tension (diameter) was used. In the case of latter we encounter the problem of impossibility to reconcile the contradictory statements written by some old lute scholars - the equal tension of the strings (to touch) and tuning the treble string as high as it goes. This doesn't look like a very low tension. The situation complicates the iconographical evidence from a baroque period which shows the right hand position very close to the bridge
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] [LUTE] Fw: [LUTE ] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/ loaded/Demi-filé
Hang on a minute! I never said that Dowland said that all strings were coloured! He says some, meaning not all. My point was that as I read his comments, it's not just bass strings which were sometimes coloured but could be any string, including trebles. There might be all sorts of reasons for colouring strings. Martin Anthony Hind wrote: Please visit my web site at www.damianstrings.com - Original Message - From: damian dlugolecki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 1:01 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé I had forgotten about the Dowland quote which indicates that 'some' strings, not 'all kinds' as Martin infers were colored. Since strings were known only by their place of manufacture, i.e., Romans, Pistoia, Bologna, etc. perhaps some enterprising maker added dye to the bath to distinguish his strings from those of others, or, to distinguish one type of torsion from another. But to leap to the conclusion that they were loading the strings in some way is stretching the evidence to say the least. From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Martin Shepherd [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 2:46 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé Le 4 juin 08 à 10:40, Martin Shepherd a écrit : Dear All, Dowland (VLL, 1610, sig.Dv.) says: Some strings there are which are coloured, out of which choose the lightest colours, viz. among the Greene choose the Sea-water, of Red the Carnation, and of Blew the Watchet. At this point he is talking about strings in general, not just bass strings, so it seems that all kinds of strings were made in different colours. I assume he recommends the lightest colours because a dark colour would make it harder to assess the quality of the string, but he doesn't say so explicitly. Martin I have a brown Venice which is just as good as the lighter yellow one. I actually prefer it for the appearance, but not the sound. It is true that colour is not a proof alone of anything. Indeed, loading can also result in various colours, but it sounds unlikely that this is exactly what Dowland is speaking about here. Nevertheless, this does seem to imply that string makers were experimenting in dyeing strings, and if that is so it is even more likely that they would have thought of using recipes designed, by the dyeing trade, for leathers, and these certainly did include dyeing with oxides (a form of loading), even if it might not have been called so. As I said previously, the leather dyeing trade in Italy (where these recipes were definitely applied) was situated in the same region from where the centre of the powerful string guild was situated (whose tentacles were to spread to Munich, to Spain, to Lyons and even Paris). If the string makers were trying out the various effects of dyeing strings, it seems probable that they would have tried these out. If they liked the effect they would have commercialized them. That does not necessarily mean that they did. However, Mace, in his time, does say that Pistoys dyed red, are the best. He could just be partial to the colour (I do like the appearance of those red strings), but it seems more likely that the effect the dyeing process had on these strings was what made him prefer them. As red dye on leather, was at that time brought about by a metal salt, it is at least plausible that an oxide was involved. I do agree that we can't just choose to give importance to Mace, and just to ignore Dowland, just because the one seems to confirm what we are looking for; but there may not be such a contradiction, if we consider that there was a period of intense experimentation in colouring processes on strings, but that the results initially, were not all particularly significant. Confronted with the variable results of these experiments, Dowland might have adopted the practical method of choice that you are suggesting, for the reason you suggest. However, string colour is not the main argument in favour of the existence of loading, although, it is perhaps the most attractive, as you can hope to actually see the trace of them in a painting, especially if they all happen to be bass register strings. It is, indeed, striking when you see the colour of a loaded string so like that of a string in a painting. However, a more conclusive proof, other than finding a fossilized loaded string, would perhaps be finding details about a stock of red oxide, in the inventory of a string maker's atelier. Anthony Best wishes, Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.0.0/1484 - Release Date: 04/06/2008 16:40
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Fw: [LUTE] Re: [ LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé
Anthony, Are you suggesting that dyeing gut strings would somehow change their mass? I do not think that you can change the specific weight of gut by any chemical means. DD Unless I am mistaken in my interpretation, it does seem that this loading of leather with oxides was a sub-part of the dyeing trade. Several ancient recipes could have been easily employed for `loading' gut (see, for instance, Giovanventura Rossetti's recipes for dyeing fabrics, silk and leather in his 'Plichto de l'arte de tentori che insegna tenger pani, telle, banbasi et sede si per larthe magiore come per la comune', Venezia, 1568). Some of these describe how to incorporate cinnabar (red mercury sulphide) or lithargyrum (yellow lead oxide) into wax, leather, silk, wood, hair, inks c.: indeed, only a short step away from gut. MP It was called dyeing, but it is possible that this was carried out by very specialized dyeing ateliers, rather than the general dyeing trade. I suppose today, if I wanted to dye my strings green, I could pop into any shop and find a suitable substance, but if you are doing this in mass, and it seems that huge numbers of strings were exported from Italy. When I heard the figure, I was astounded. Unfortunately, I just heard it and can not quote the figures. In that case, I would think that there would have to be commerce between string makers and dye people. If that is the case, they would surely have discussed their trade. There could even have been marriage between families who met in this way. I am just imagining. This sort of socio-economic history of these trades, as you suggest could be very interesting. Although their practices were very secretive, which is a hindrance, usually evidence is indirect. Of course, even if there had not been any commerce at all between the dyeing trade and the gut trade, some gut maker could have become aware of such practices as loading leather, and tried it; but it is just a little more likely that this might happen, if such a relation existed. At the same time, you are right, it is not because there was a potential for this to happen that it actually did. There are often missed opportunities, just as there are happy chance encounters of completely independant thinkers. I think it would be helpful to know more about how stringmaking guilds operated, how they defined their areas of specialization. I know Mimmo has done some work in this area, but it would be really valuable to have a better understanding how this worked. Taking a broad view of the commercial aspects is perhaps worthwhile. According to Dowland there were two major markets in Leipzig and Frankfurt at two times the year, Easter and Michaelmas which falls in late September. To these fairs gathered merchants from all over Europe who purchased quantities of strings, presumably from representatives of the stringmakers who worked in major stringmaking centers in Italy, Germany and France. They would return to their own countries and would then travel to different local fairs or markets where the retail customer could purchase the strings for his lute or violin. Fernand Braudel describes the mechanisms of trade in the second volume of his series, Civilization and Capitalism 15th-18th Century. Did certains centers activity specialize in only one type of string, so that for example a Venice string was very highly twisted, whereas Romans had more moderate torsions? This does seem to be the case. But I feel that to leap to the conclusion that each area made some radically different type of string like our modern mannerist expirements, is going to far. I agree, I do think this would be an extremely interesting area of research, and I do think Mimmo and Daniela, in their spare time (where do they find spare time?) are looking into this. This stringmaking tradition was not seriously disrupted until WWI which was cataclysmic. But until that time there is a direct line to the 17th century. In 1910, the best strings were still believed to come from Italy. I am not sure whether the line was completely direct and unbroken. There may have been some sort of upheaval that effected the centre of the guilds (similar to what happened in Fussen), perhaps isolating the outposts from the centre. I am not sure about that, but if there waere such an upheaval, you could have some skills lost, while others might be kept on locally in the other smaller centres that have not been so effected. And there were no loaded or roped strings that I have been able to discover, just gut strings with various degrees of torsion. I am not sure that proves that none existed. Obvioulsy, if we found some in an old case, that would presumably prove that they did (or if some old man was still found with the knowledeg today), but we do know that demi-file were made at one period (Mest lute, and
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Fw: [LUTE] Re: [ LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé
Damian, No I think that what they called a dyeing process may have been a form of loading, or a charging, process: incorporating oxides, probably does load the material, even if the person dyeing the leather does not think of it in that way, his intention may just be to colour the leather with the oxide, and not care in the least about the change of specific weight (although, again adding weight to the material may be seen as making it somehow enriching it and making it more noble), but I have not seen the recipes by Giovanventura Rossetti's for dyeing fabrics, silk and leather, and even if I did, I am not sure I would be able to recognize the technology. I am not a chemist. I imagine there might be various ways this could be done, but I honestly don't have any idea of exactly what that might be. I suppose oil paint on a canvass could be a form of loading. Some are painted so thick the process must add weight, but the painter probably does not think of it in that way. I have no idea whether other dyeing processes (that don't add weight) might nevertheless alter the behaviour of the gut, other than simply colouring it. I suppose that depends on the accompanying chemicals. However, it could have been purely decorative, except for in some the colour does seem to be on the basses, why? What were those red pistoys that Mace was speaking about? There is a rather strange game that English children play with horse chestnuts (conkers), thy put a piece of string through it with a knot on the end, and they precede to try to smash their adversaries conker with their own. I understood from some children that their fathers had handed them down old (secret) recipes for hardening and strengthening these chestnuts, so some had centurians (that had destroyed a hundred others). http://tinyurl.com/5ju9pc They pickled them roasted them, and did all manner of other things to them, perhaps even loading them, but the point is, if children can experiment with such recipes, we can suppose string makers should also have been quite inventive. Some reipes are given here http://tinyurl.com/yv8z7g Again, I do not consider that in any way as a proof, just part of my thoughts on the topic. I hardly ever played that game, and my father never handed me down any such resipe, so I don't suppose he played conkers either. Regards Anthony Le 5 juin 08 à 16:57, damian dlugolecki a écrit : Anthony, Are you suggesting that dyeing gut strings would somehow change their mass? I do not think that you can change the specific weight of gut by any chemical means. DD Unless I am mistaken in my interpretation, it does seem that this loading of leather with oxides was a sub-part of the dyeing trade. Several ancient recipes could have been easily employed for `loading' gut (see, for instance, Giovanventura Rossetti's recipes for dyeing fabrics, silk and leather in his 'Plichto de l'arte de tentori che insegna tenger pani, telle, banbasi et sede si per larthe magiore come per la comune', Venezia, 1568). Some of these describe how to incorporate cinnabar (red mercury sulphide) or lithargyrum (yellow lead oxide) into wax, leather, silk, wood, hair, inks c.: indeed, only a short step away from gut. MP It was called dyeing, but it is possible that this was carried out by very specialized dyeing ateliers, rather than the general dyeing trade. I suppose today, if I wanted to dye my strings green, I could pop into any shop and find a suitable substance, but if you are doing this in mass, and it seems that huge numbers of strings were exported from Italy. When I heard the figure, I was astounded. Unfortunately, I just heard it and can not quote the figures. In that case, I would think that there would have to be commerce between string makers and dye people. If that is the case, they would surely have discussed their trade. There could even have been marriage between families who met in this way. I am just imagining. This sort of socio-economic history of these trades, as you suggest could be very interesting. Although their practices were very secretive, which is a hindrance, usually evidence is indirect. Of course, even if there had not been any commerce at all between the dyeing trade and the gut trade, some gut maker could have become aware of such practices as loading leather, and tried it; but it is just a little more likely that this might happen, if such a relation existed. At the same time, you are right, it is not because there was a potential for this to happen that it actually did. There are often missed opportunities, just as there are happy chance encounters of completely independant thinkers. I think it would be helpful to know more about how stringmaking guilds operated, how they defined their areas of specialization. I know Mimmo has done some work in this area, but it
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Fw: [LUTE ] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé
There is no way to change the specific weight or mass of a gut string by chemical means. If someone were to claim that there are ways to chemically change the gut to make it heavier, that would be classed as some kind of alchemy. DD Damian, No I think that what they called a dyeing process may have been a form of loading, or a charging, process: incorporating oxides, probably does load the material, even if the person dyeing the leather does not think of it in that way, his intention may just be to colour the leather with the oxide, and not care in the least about the change of specific weight (although, again adding weight to the material may be seen as making it somehow enriching it and making it more noble), but I have not seen the recipes by Giovanventura Rossetti's for dyeing fabrics, silk and leather, and even if I did, I am not sure I would be able to recognize the technology. I am not a chemist. I imagine there might be various ways this could be done, but I honestly don't have any idea of exactly what that might be. I suppose oil paint on a canvass could be a form of loading. Some are painted so thick the process must add weight, but the painter probably does not think of it in that way. I have no idea whether other dyeing processes (that don't add weight) might nevertheless alter the behaviour of the gut, other than simply colouring it. I suppose that depends on the accompanying chemicals. However, it could have been purely decorative, except for in some the colour does seem to be on the basses, why? What were those red pistoys that Mace was speaking about? There is a rather strange game that English children play with horse chestnuts (conkers), thy put a piece of string through it with a knot on the end, and they precede to try to smash their adversaries conker with their own. I understood from some children that their fathers had handed them down old (secret) recipes for hardening and strengthening these chestnuts, so some had centurians (that had destroyed a hundred others). http://tinyurl.com/5ju9pc They pickled them roasted them, and did all manner of other things to them, perhaps even loading them, but the point is, if children can experiment with such recipes, we can suppose string makers should also have been quite inventive. Some reipes are given here http://tinyurl.com/yv8z7g Again, I do not consider that in any way as a proof, just part of my thoughts on the topic. I hardly ever played that game, and my father never handed me down any such resipe, so I don't suppose he played conkers either. Regards Anthony Le 5 juin 08 à 16:57, damian dlugolecki a écrit : Anthony, Are you suggesting that dyeing gut strings would somehow change their mass? I do not think that you can change the specific weight of gut by any chemical means. DD Unless I am mistaken in my interpretation, it does seem that this loading of leather with oxides was a sub-part of the dyeing trade. Several ancient recipes could have been easily employed for `loading' gut (see, for instance, Giovanventura Rossetti's recipes for dyeing fabrics, silk and leather in his 'Plichto de l'arte de tentori che insegna tenger pani, telle, banbasi et sede si per larthe magiore come per la comune', Venezia, 1568). Some of these describe how to incorporate cinnabar (red mercury sulphide) or lithargyrum (yellow lead oxide) into wax, leather, silk, wood, hair, inks c.: indeed, only a short step away from gut. MP It was called dyeing, but it is possible that this was carried out by very specialized dyeing ateliers, rather than the general dyeing trade. I suppose today, if I wanted to dye my strings green, I could pop into any shop and find a suitable substance, but if you are doing this in mass, and it seems that huge numbers of strings were exported from Italy. When I heard the figure, I was astounded. Unfortunately, I just heard it and can not quote the figures. In that case, I would think that there would have to be commerce between string makers and dye people. If that is the case, they would surely have discussed their trade. There could even have been marriage between families who met in this way. I am just imagining. This sort of socio-economic history of these trades, as you suggest could be very interesting. Although their practices were very secretive, which is a hindrance, usually evidence is indirect. Of course, even if there had not been any commerce at all between the dyeing trade and the gut trade, some gut maker could have become aware of such practices as loading leather, and tried it; but it is just a little more likely that this might happen, if such a relation existed. At the same time, you are right, it is not because there was a potential for this to happen that it actually did. There are often missed opportunities, just as there are happy chance encounters of completely independant
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé
Dear Chris, Damian, Martin and Anthony, Unfortunately we are still missing some very important information. Finding the truth about 16/17 c. strings can be a very difficult matter because we lack proof due to its character. In terms of archeology we have only one excavation till now - the Mest string which even wasn't carbon tested. The iconographical evidence, as Chris pointed, shows rather that the string color wasn't dependent on a loading process, but probably was a side effect of marketing policies of some string makers wanting to distinguish their product (as Rubens portrait seems to suggest). It seems to me that Damian gives us a very good point differentiating dyeing and loading processes. Dyeing is the process of imparting colour to a textile material in loose fibre, yarn, cloth or garment form by treatment with a dye. Loading involves insertion of some substance into another. In case of the strings it would mean that some metal particles would penetrate deeply the gut itself, not only the surface and it has nothing to do with the colour itself. So what evidence do we have? The bass bridge holes on some old lutes that are too small to contain the proper diameter gut string. It's been suggested that this is due to the fact that the bass strings were loaded (to increase their specific weight), or the plain gut of smaller tension (diameter) was used. In the case of latter we encounter the problem of impossibility to reconcile the contradictory statements written by some old lute scholars - the equal tension of the strings (to touch) and tuning the treble string as high as it goes. This doesn't look like a very low tension. The situation complicates the iconographical evidence from a baroque period which shows the right hand position very close to the bridge. Were the strings so slack, or maybe lute players liked the harpsichord tone quality which was commonly accepted throughout Europe and which would allow them to acquire a better projection in an ensemble? How about the general tendency prevailing from medieval till romantic era to construct more and more sonorous instruments which had to involve changes in soundboard tension? The fact is we have more questions than the answers. Meanwhile I think we do better and make nice music on the variety of strings we fortunately have at our disposal. We are musicians, aren't we? Best regards Jaroslaw -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 3:24 PM To: Jaros3aw Lipski; 'Lute' Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé Lots of good questions that obviously haven't been satisfactorily answered. One thing that has bothered me for a while as well is that the paintings often aren't consistent within themselves. Quite often one finds red-ish strings on non-successive courses, i.e. the 5th course and the 9th course might be red. As an example: the lute player on the cover of Hoppy's 'Vieux Gaultier' CD (who's the artist?) plays an instument with the first and second courses red but also the BASS string only of the 7th course. All the other ones are pale. Why? Chris --- Jaros³aw Lipski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear All, Very often when I listen to such a discussion I think what the old guys would say about all this string business. In our century we have very scientific attitude towards music making. But are we sure this is all real science? We base on paintings and treatises, but can we say loaded strings are often mentioned in such a writings? Or can we be sure that this reddish color indicates copper loading? And then, I wonder how the artist (not very scientific minded creature) would paint a demi-file string with copper wire? Would he be able to show the whole structure of the wiring? Or would he mind showing it? Then, we have to look at the painting process in general and put it into the proper context (not so scientific I am afraid). Is the tone color absolutely realistic on all paintings from the period? Very often I find spectrum shifted towards brown, yellow, or red side. This is not to say I exclude loading, but probably I would be more careful on deciding what is historical and what is not. Best wishes -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé
In the sense that you might chemically alter gut to become heavier, yes. If I am not mistaken the 'loaded' strings are made by adding metal filings to the gut prior to the initial twisting of the gut ribbons. DD Howard Posner wrote: You mean loaded gut is impossible? On Jun 5, 2008, at 12:00 PM, damian dlugolecki wrote: There is no way to change the specific weight or mass of a gut string by chemical means. If someone were to claim that there are ways to chemically change the gut to make it heavier, that would be classed as some kind of alchemy. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/ Demi-filé
Water, yes. Dye, no. Water is heavy. Dye is not. I repeat. You can not chemically alter the specific gravity of gut. Ask Mimmo. DD Please visit my web site at www.damianstrings.com - Original Message - From: howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 4:37 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/ Demi-filé On Jun 5, 2008, at 2:44 PM, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: I don't think you are mistaken; however, that still would not involve a chemical change of the gut material itself. Does dyeing? The question, if I am again unmistaken, was whether a process used for dyeing might incidentally increase the density/ weight of a string. As far as I can see, adding anything to the string's innards is going to increase its density, though the increase may be negligible. Anyone who uses gut strings knows they get denser from absorbing water when the humidity rises. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/ Demi-filé
- Original Message -=3CBR=3EFrom=3A howard posner =26lt=3Bhoward= posner=40ca=2Err=2Ecom=26gt=3B=3CBR=3EDate=3A Thursday=2C June 5=2C 2008= 7=3A39 pm=3CBR=3ESubject=3A =5BLUTE=5D Re=3A Double headed 12c/loaded/=26= nbsp=3B Demi-fil=E9=3CBR=3ETo=3A Lute List =26lt=3Blute=40cs=2Edartmouth= =2Eedu=26gt=3B=3CBR=3E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B On Jun 5=2C 2008= =2C at 2=3A44 PM=2C Eugene C=2E Braig IV wrote=3A=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR=3E= =26gt=3B =26gt=3B I don=27t think you are mistaken=3B however=2C that st= ill would =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B not=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =26gt=3B invol= ve a chemical change of the gut material itself=2E=3CBR=3E=26gt=3B =3CBR= =3E=26gt=3B Does dyeing=3F=26nbsp=3B =3CBR=3E=26nbsp=3B=3CBR=3ENot ordin= arily=2C not with most materials that would be called dyes=2E=3CBR=3E=26= nbsp=3B=3CBR=3EBest=2C=3CBR=3EEugene -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded / Demi-filé
No, no, no. This is complete and utter nonsense without any factual basis. I am sorry to be so blunt, but I will not accomodate this kind of fantasy science. DD What seems to me more feasible, as regards to the increase of the density of the gut string, is that some substances that were traditionally used in dyeing of organic materials, such as iron and copper sulphates for instance, may well have initiated the idea of loading gut with an extra mass. These salts, or indeed even more heavier ones, may well remain as purely mechanical residues in-between the long chains of molecules that constitute the fibrous part of the gut ( the main part of it which, in a way, is responsible for strength factor of the gut string). As a matter of fact the specific weight of iron and copper sulfates is about 1.8 - 1.9 and 2.2 - 2.3 accordingly, certainly more than the gut itself. Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Fw: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded /Demi-filé
Please visit my web site at www.damianstrings.com - Original Message - From: damian dlugolecki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 1:01 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé I had forgotten about the Dowland quote which indicates that 'some' strings, not 'all kinds' as Martin infers were colored. Since strings were known only by their place of manufacture, i.e., Romans, Pistoia, Bologna, etc. perhaps some enterprising maker added dye to the bath to distinguish his strings from those of others, or, to distinguish one type of torsion from another. But to leap to the conclusion that they were loading the strings in some way is stretching the evidence to say the least. From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Martin Shepherd [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 2:46 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé Le 4 juin 08 à 10:40, Martin Shepherd a écrit : Dear All, Dowland (VLL, 1610, sig.Dv.) says: Some strings there are which are coloured, out of which choose the lightest colours, viz. among the Greene choose the Sea-water, of Red the Carnation, and of Blew the Watchet. At this point he is talking about strings in general, not just bass strings, so it seems that all kinds of strings were made in different colours. I assume he recommends the lightest colours because a dark colour would make it harder to assess the quality of the string, but he doesn't say so explicitly. Martin I have a brown Venice which is just as good as the lighter yellow one. I actually prefer it for the appearance, but not the sound. It is true that colour is not a proof alone of anything. Indeed, loading can also result in various colours, but it sounds unlikely that this is exactly what Dowland is speaking about here. Nevertheless, this does seem to imply that string makers were experimenting in dyeing strings, and if that is so it is even more likely that they would have thought of using recipes designed, by the dyeing trade, for leathers, and these certainly did include dyeing with oxides (a form of loading), even if it might not have been called so. As I said previously, the leather dyeing trade in Italy (where these recipes were definitely applied) was situated in the same region from where the centre of the powerful string guild was situated (whose tentacles were to spread to Munich, to Spain, to Lyons and even Paris). If the string makers were trying out the various effects of dyeing strings, it seems probable that they would have tried these out. If they liked the effect they would have commercialized them. That does not necessarily mean that they did. However, Mace, in his time, does say that Pistoys dyed red, are the best. He could just be partial to the colour (I do like the appearance of those red strings), but it seems more likely that the effect the dyeing process had on these strings was what made him prefer them. As red dye on leather, was at that time brought about by a metal salt, it is at least plausible that an oxide was involved. I do agree that we can't just choose to give importance to Mace, and just to ignore Dowland, just because the one seems to confirm what we are looking for; but there may not be such a contradiction, if we consider that there was a period of intense experimentation in colouring processes on strings, but that the results initially, were not all particularly significant. Confronted with the variable results of these experiments, Dowland might have adopted the practical method of choice that you are suggesting, for the reason you suggest. However, string colour is not the main argument in favour of the existence of loading, although, it is perhaps the most attractive, as you can hope to actually see the trace of them in a painting, especially if they all happen to be bass register strings. It is, indeed, striking when you see the colour of a loaded string so like that of a string in a painting. However, a more conclusive proof, other than finding a fossilized loaded string, would perhaps be finding details about a stock of red oxide, in the inventory of a string maker's atelier. Anthony Best wishes, Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé
I think you are speaking of the lute player, in Troyes (France) Beaux-arts museum, with uncertain attribution to Rubens. I saw many times the original and some strings are red on the painting (the original is more than human size... beautiful picture of course) I remember it is a ten course lute. (and the player wearing a sword, not very comfortable to play lute...) Next time I go to Troyes I'll have a close look to the strings... You have some more infos here and clicking on vue complete you can see on the zoom the red strings... http://www.ville-troyes.fr/scripts/musees/publigen/content/templates/show.a sp?P=346L=FRSYNC=Y If cut, paste the ling between the two V. -Message d'origine- De : howard posner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Envoyé : mardi 3 juin 2008 16:32 À : Lute Objet : [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé On Jun 3, 2008, at 6:24 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: the lute player on the cover of Hoppy's 'Vieux Gaultier' CD (who's the artist?) plays an instument with the first and second courses red but also the BASS string only of the 7th course. All the other ones are pale. Why? Maybe as a visual cue, the way harpists color their C and F strings today... -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé
I've posted a picture of this painting (L'homme au luth) here : http://lutegroup.ning.com/profile/JMP Just join the group (free) and enjoy ! Best, Jean-Marie === 03-06-2008 15:24:22 === Lots of good questions that obviously haven't been satisfactorily answered. One thing that has bothered me for a while as well is that the paintings often aren't consistent within themselves. Quite often one finds red-ish strings on non-successive courses, i.e. the 5th course and the 9th course might be red. As an example: the lute player on the cover of Hoppy's 'Vieux Gaultier' CD (who's the artist?) plays an instument with the first and second courses red but also the BASS string only of the 7th course. All the other ones are pale. Why? Chris --- Jaros³aw Lipski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear All, Very often when I listen to such a discussion I think what the old guys would say about all this string business. In our century we have very scientific attitude towards music making. But are we sure this is all real science? We base on paintings and treatises, but can we say loaded strings are often mentioned in such a writings? Or can we be sure that this reddish color indicates copper loading? And then, I wonder how the artist (not very scientific minded creature) would paint a demi-file string with copper wire? Would he be able to show the whole structure of the wiring? Or would he mind showing it? Then, we have to look at the painting process in general and put it into the proper context (not so scientific I am afraid). Is the tone color absolutely realistic on all paintings from the period? Very often I find spectrum shifted towards brown, yellow, or red side. This is not to say I exclude loading, but probably I would be more careful on deciding what is historical and what is not. Best wishes -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://poirierjm.free.fr 03-06-2008 N ¶è®ß¶¬+-±ç¥Ëbú+«b¢vÛiÿü0ÁË j»f¢ëayÛ¿Á·?ë^iÙ¢ø§uìa¶i
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé
The color of the string is a result of the processing of the casings making gut strings. It is a consequence of the nature of the casings themselves, the chemistry used, the Ph of the water etc. So finished strings can end up being a rich brown color, a nearly white color, and anything in between. And it means very little in terms of the quality of the string. Damian Quite often one finds red-ish strings on non-successive courses, i.e. the 5th course and the 9th course might be red. As an example: the lute player on the cover of Hoppy's 'Vieux Gaultier' CD (who's the artist?) plays an instument with the first and second courses red but also the BASS string only of the 7th course. All the other ones are pale. Why? Chris --- Jaros³aw Lipski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear All, Very often when I listen to such a discussion I think what the old guys would say about all this string business. In our century we have very scientific attitude towards music making. But are we sure this is all real science? We base on paintings and treatises, but can we say loaded strings are often mentioned in such a writings? Or can we be sure that this reddish color indicates copper loading? And then, I wonder how the artist (not very scientific minded creature) would paint a demi-file string with copper wire? Would he be able to show the whole structure of the wiring? Or would he mind showing it? Then, we have to look at the painting process in general and put it into the proper context (not so scientific I am afraid). Is the tone color absolutely realistic on all paintings from the period? Very often I find spectrum shifted towards brown, yellow, or red side. This is not to say I exclude loading, but probably I would be more careful on deciding what is historical and what is not. Best wishes -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/ loaded/Demi-filé
If significantly lower string tensions are employed than those commonly used nowadays, a plain gut high twist bass can sound fine without requiring loaded strings (which may, or may not, have existed). Of course one needs to pluck much closer to the bridge than is the common modern fashion but seems, from paintings and early instructions, to have been much more usual from the early 17thC when extra courses were being added to lutes. MH --- On Mon, 2/6/08, Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Anthony Hind [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Double headed 12c/loaded/Demi-filé To: Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED], lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 2 June, 2008, 10:43 AM Matthias This whole thread about the 12c lute interests many of us for a number of reasons. However, just for the moment, let us stay with this question of the strings on the Mest lute. I am not sure whether I have completely grasped your remarks about the demi-file strings. On the Kenneth Sparr pages, I read: On the inside of the back is a printed label: 'Raphael Mest in Fiessen, Imperato / del Misier Michael Hartung in Pa- / dua me fecit, Anno 1633'. I am not certain whether we should assume it was in its 12c form at that date, but there is certainly no reason to consider it was baroqued after 1700. In which case, I would not like to assume that the demi-file are the strings that were originally used on that lute. I am not sure if that was what you were suggesting Mathias, but demi-file are only mentioned after 1650, and don't seem to have caught on until about 1700, or later. On the other hand, the basses on the Mest lute are quite short for a 12c lute, not more than 71mm. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/associated/database/dbdetail.php? PID=348 As Rob Mackillop found on his 69mm Maler, pure gut basses of that sort of length are very thick, and do present serious intonation problems with the octave strings and with the trebles. It seems more likely to me that the Mest lute would have had loaded strings, initially, as the colour of these strings seem to indicate for this other 12c lute, shown on the Aquila pages you mention: http://www.aquilacorde.com/File0102.jpg but when this technology was replaced by demi-file, and the loaded strings worn out, the owner at that time could have changed to demi- file, as certainly pure gut strings would not have been ideal. Some other 12c lutes, such as the Wolf, have up to 80mm (see K. Sp.), and some possibly more. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/associated/database/dbdetail.php? PIDF7 These models with very long basses could have been more suitable for pure gut, or for lesser quality loaded strings, although they could also have been developed for more sustain with loaded strings (depending on whether the musicans who chose to play the 12c instrument, revelled in the strong basses that the French Baroque musicians seem to have spurned, keeping, in some cases, only the small eleventh, Burwell). Indeed, Stephen Gottlieb tells me that this Mest lute-type is not really successful when strung with pure gut (although this may not be just due to the relatively short basses); and he has preferred to construct a lute with basses up to 80mm, probably so as to have strong, but not over thick, Pistoy basses, but in this case with a stoppable string length of about 67mm. This composite lute was based on the Rauwolf body, and the peg-box arrangement of a Dutch painting in Glasgow, see the photos here: http://lutegroup.ning.com/photo/photo/show?id=2106727%3APhoto%3A1849 On the other hand, I very much doubt whether such a lute would be successful with full wire-wounds, as the basses would then become far too thin. I have no idea how demi-file would be on Stephen's lute. One possibility, is that the 12c lute (with long basses) remained popular in England and Holland, just because good loaded strings were not readily available in these countries. Another possibility is simply that the taste for French music under the influence of The French English Queen, Henrietta-Maria, was rather conservative, and that a fashion created in France (according to the author of Burwell), but later spurned, was carried on in England and Holland. In England this was certainly true for the Carolean Masque, which carried on the, by then, decadent French Masque form, Le Ballet =E0 Entree, in which the Queen had performed herself, in her youth in France. We must remember that the Queen surrounded herself with French musicians, including Jacques Gaultier, who may or may not have been the inventor of the 12c lute, but certainly played one, and was influential in its diffusion. http://lutegroup.ning.com/photo/photo/show?id=2106727%3APhoto%3A112
