[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
"David Rastall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > What's up guys, > > Continuo question: how do you play basso continuo in a fugue, where > the voices are played one-on-a-part? My problem is I don't know what > to do with the places in the music where the bass is not playing. > Any suggestions? Not that I'm an expert, but what I was taught concerning continuo with fugues is a) that continuo doesn't start before the 3rd entry and b) that when there's no bass, there's no continuo. Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
There is no easy answer. You can play colla parte, or course, the ultimate challenge for any lute music, or double the lower voices, or you can just figure it. If it is a later Baroque piece, there will many interlocking 7ths and 9ths, and in these cases I often will play the sevenths so that they resolve, rightly or wrongly, on the next big beat chord. (as in "tea for two"). That avoids constantly doubling the resolution, which often does not sound good or creates ensemble or dynamic issues. I also use the big archlute for these types of pieces, to keep the sevenths and ninths high in the stack and to avoid octave resolutions--a big problem IMHO on many recordings with theorbo continuo, where the extra voice doubles the leading tone or the 7th in the wrong octave. 9ths are a bit less fussy, they can sound OK as a 2nd, and are often figured as a "2". dt At 11:24 AM 10/28/2008, you wrote: >"David Rastall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > > What's up guys, > > > > Continuo question: how do you play basso continuo in a fugue, where > > the voices are played one-on-a-part? My problem is I don't know what > > to do with the places in the music where the bass is not playing. > > Any suggestions? > >Not that I'm an expert, but what I was taught concerning continuo with >fugues is > >a) that continuo doesn't start before the 3rd entry >and >b) that when there's no bass, there's no continuo. > >Mathias > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
David, Matthias, Roman, thanks for your input on my continuo question. Best, Davidr [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
We know that continuo players often played with the treble players before the bass entrance because of the many examples of figures in the colla parte parts. The figures show many things, but the two that jump out are first that these parts are not cues because they have figures, but also that the chords were played sometimes very high. In some music, this can be doone with a four foot stop on an organ or harpsichord, although generally it is done with the upper range of the keyboard. dt At 11:24 AM 10/28/2008, you wrote: >"David Rastall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > > What's up guys, > > > > Continuo question: how do you play basso continuo in a fugue, where > > the voices are played one-on-a-part? My problem is I don't know what > > to do with the places in the music where the bass is not playing. > > Any suggestions? > >Not that I'm an expert, but what I was taught concerning continuo with >fugues is > >a) that continuo doesn't start before the 3rd entry >and >b) that when there's no bass, there's no continuo. > >Mathias > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
"David Tayler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > We know that continuo players often played with the treble players > before the bass entrance because of the many examples of figures in > the colla parte parts. How will you know what they actually did? That aside, colla parte means colla parte, i. e. you play with the others' parts. That's not exactly continuo, I should say. David, would you mind to give one or two examples, btw? Mathias > The figures show many things, but the two that > jump out are first that > these parts are not cues because they have figures, but also that the > chords were played sometimes very high. In some music, this can be > doone with a four foot stop on an organ or harpsichord, although > generally it is done with the upper range of the keyboard. > dt > > > > At 11:24 AM 10/28/2008, you wrote: > >"David Rastall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > > > What's up guys, > > > > > > Continuo question: how do you play basso continuo in a fugue, where > > > the voices are played one-on-a-part? My problem is I don't know what > > > to do with the places in the music where the bass is not playing. > > > Any suggestions? > > > >Not that I'm an expert, but what I was taught concerning continuo with > >fugues is > > > >a) that continuo doesn't start before the 3rd entry > >and > >b) that when there's no bass, there's no continuo. > > > >Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 11:30 AM, "Mathias Rösel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > "David Tayler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: >> We know that continuo players often played with the treble players >> before the bass entrance because of the many examples of figures in >> the colla parte parts. > > How will you know what they actually did? That aside, colla parte means > colla parte, i. e. you play with the others' parts. That's not exactly > continuo, I should say. The figures in these openings tend to be very precicely decribing what the voices above are doing. So it's not continuo as in 'play what you like within these figures', but a shorthand for the voice leading of the upper voices. That's how I interpret them, anyway. Don't mess too much in openings of fugues, is my motto. David -- *** David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
You seem to be describing a "basso seguente." =AJN (Boston, Mass.)= This week's free download from Classical Music Library is Stravinsky's Chamber Concerto in E flat (Dumbarton Oaks), performed by the Orchestre Philharmonique des Pays de Loire; Marc Soustrot, conductor. To download, click on the CML link here http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ My Web Page: Scores http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/ Other Matters: http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ === - Original Message - From: "David Tayler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 5:10 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Continuo Question We know that continuo players often played with the treble players before the bass entrance because of the many examples of figures in the colla parte parts. The figures show many things, but the two that jump out are first that these parts are not cues because they have figures, but also that the chords were played sometimes very high. In some music, this can be doone with a four foot stop on an organ or harpsichord, although generally it is done with the upper range of the keyboard. dt At 11:24 AM 10/28/2008, you wrote: "David Rastall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > What's up guys, > > Continuo question: how do you play basso continuo in a fugue, > where > the voices are played one-on-a-part? My problem is I don't know > what > to do with the places in the music where the bass is not playing. > Any suggestions? Not that I'm an expert, but what I was taught concerning continuo with fugues is a) that continuo doesn't start before the 3rd entry and b) that when there's no bass, there's no continuo. Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
There are many examples of figures which do not double any of the voices. This means that they were either played or ignored, by they are not "kibitzing" figures. These additional figures also fall into several categories. Some of these imply, by there shape and structure, additional melodic lines. Others, which are more complex, reveal fully structured chordal progressions. Since these figures do not double the other parts--and, if you think about it, how could they in a fugal allegro where only one part is playing in the beginning--I cannot think of a way NOT to play them that would justify their inclusion. In my own group, we normally play these pieces on the organ, the figures appear therefore in the organ. However, I have on occasion played them on the archlute. You can certainly argue that many of these high figures are not lutelike, but they exist and should be played--or ignored, that is an aesthetic choice, oi course. Sometimes we say--I know these upper parts are figured with unique harmonies, but I don't like the sound. Example--I just now played a Legrenzi piece with undoubled figures, Sonata quarta, m77. Hey, there is a figure for the the seguente part doubling the viola. However, there are thousands of examples, from all periods, all parts. Another famous "naked" figure--this time over the bass--is from the beginning of the second movement of the opening of Corelli's Christmas concerto. When we see all of these types of figures in the bass part--where they seem "normal--a brief extra part, so to speak, we then see them in the Solo cello parts, then in the basso seguente parts for viola, then the basso seguente for second and first violins. These figures paint a complete and compelling picture of harmonization practices of the time, replete with sevenths. The examples are far too numerous and complete to ignore, and they appear in music from all countries as well. Similarly, on a smaller scale, are the numerous and highly structured examples of figured rests. dt At 03:37 AM 10/30/2008, you wrote: On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 11:30 AM, "Mathias Rösel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > "David Tayler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: >> We know that continuo players often played with the treble players >> before the bass entrance because of the many examples of figures in >> the colla parte parts. > > How will you know what they actually did? That aside, colla parte means > colla parte, i. e. you play with the others' parts. That's not exactly > continuo, I should say. The figures in these openings tend to be very precicely decribing what the voices above are doing. So it's not continuo as in 'play what you like within these figures', but a shorthand for the voice leading of the upper voices. That's how I interpret them, anyway. Don't mess too much in openings of fugues, is my motto. David -- *** David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
Perhaps that is a better term, but some basso sequente parts do not double the treble. In addition, colla parte is a style of continuo playing, whereas some seguente parts can also be simply composite bass parts. The famous resolution of Palestrina's works by organ would fall more into a colla parte style, or even "short score", but for renaissance music short score is not as persuasive as full parts, whereas in Handel it is necessary. If there is a technical term for "figured upper parts", that would be great, of course, perhaps basso seguente is a better fit, however those really high parts would not be practical on a bass instrument (not so high parts could be doubled on a five string cello, but the sound is not always persuasive). Therfore they are not "basso". And, since these cases explicitly introduce new material, they are not exactly "seguente." (see below on barring as an alternate meaning for "seguente") By that definition, one could refer to a Continuo part itself as basso seguente, especially for bass sonatas. Some scholars posit that there is no real difference historically for the early 17th century (CF the Grove Article, by no means complete), but that is not how we use the terms now. Later music, such as Handel, is of course different. However, we use the term slightly differently than Banchieri, and even Banchieri uses different terms, such as barittono. According to the "unbarred" definition of basso seguente, much later music would not be so defined, but the term is historically specific to older music, as opposed to basetto. The barring question may of course refer obliquely to the absence of rests, and my reading of the Cartela rests on my limited grasp of idiomatic Italian. The fundamental question remains, however, as to what to do with the figures, since they are not always doubled by parts. dt At 06:11 AM 10/30/2008, you wrote: You seem to be describing a "basso seguente." =AJN (Boston, Mass.)= This week's free download from Classical Music Library is Stravinsky's Chamber Concerto in E flat (Dumbarton Oaks), performed by the Orchestre Philharmonique des Pays de Loire; Marc Soustrot, conductor. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
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[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
The figures are not editorial. If you look at the facsimiles of Corelli's published opuses (opera?) you'll see that they're all heavily figured. You are not generally required to play ALL the figures, they're just to let you what's happening above. Of course it usually sounds great in Corelli to grab all the suspensions you can, but it works just as well to have the other parts clash against you. One caveat: there are places where a dissonance is set up in the upper voice and not resolved. In this case it's usually good to double the dissonance and resolve it properly. This almost never happens in Corelli, though, as his voice leading is superb. One last thing: they're not really ninth chords like Chuck Berry, in that they don't have a seventh in them and they don't have dominant function. They're just triads in which the octave of the bass is delayed. That's why it's okay to leave it out. On the other hand, since 7 often (Not always) resolves to 6, in this case you really shouldn't play a triad as it never sounds good. If you can't do the 7-6, just play a third above the base. CW To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
David Rastall wrote: > My attempts to teach myself continuo continue... > > I'm looking at a sonata by Corelli: two instrumental parts plus > basso continuo. Under the bass notes are lots of indications for > dominant 7th and 9th chords probably not all dominants, to be nitpicky... > , at places where the 7ths and 9ths appear > in the instrumental parts. That's no problem. I can find the > harmonies okay, but my question is: if the 7th or 9th is being > supplied in the upper parts, isn't that the place where I should > *not* be playing it? I think the definitive answer is "maybe." Surely the mere presence of a note in the violin part is not necessarily a reason to avoid it in the continuo. You don't avoid thirds and fifths for that reason. On the other hand, I don't think a figure that doubles a melody note makes the note required in the continuo. It's a matter of style, or, in your case, just what sort of lesson you want to give yourself that day. > I'm > thinking that perhaps those 7's and 9's under the bass are > editorial. Maybe the editor worked backwards: starting with the > upper parts, and figuring the bassline accordingly. Or did Corelli > really want all those 7ths and 9ths doubled in the continuo part? Unless you answer your first question with a hard and fast rule one way or the other, the completeness of the figures doesn't settle the question -- fewer figures don't mean you must omit the sevenths and ninths, and more figures don't necessarily mean you have to play them. For what it's worth, Corelli's trio sonatas acquired more figures as the years went on. In Chrysander's preface to his edition (now available in a Dover reprint) he notes that the later Dutch and English editions had more figures than the earlier Italian editions. I think the level of figuration reflects an attitude by the composer, original publisher, or editor about how much information is useful. In Couperin's publications, the figures amount to a sort of short score; you can just about create the upper lines from the figures. It's probably best to resist the temptation. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
> > if the 7th or 9th is being > > supplied in the upper parts, isn't that the place where I should > > *not* be playing it? I for one leave them out in that case. My rule is: Play it the easiest possible way. If the upper voice has it, why should I double it? > Surely the mere presence of > a note in the violin part is not necessarily a reason to avoid it in > the continuo. You don't avoid thirds and fifths for that reason. In certain cases, I do avoid major thirds for that very reason. With suspensions in particular. Sounds better IMHO when the soloist resolves. On the other hand, if the accompanied voice does not provide thirds figured in the bass line, continuo will make sure to supply them. > fewer figures don't mean you must omit the sevenths and > ninths Depends on the date of the music, I'd say. I for one can't imagine chords like (or progressions of, for that matter) 7/9-dominants or 5/6-subdominants _freely_ added in a piece of, say, Heinrich Schuetz. -- Best, Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
On Oct 29, 2006, at 6:48 PM, Howard Posner wrote: >> Under the bass notes are lots of indications for >> dominant 7th and 9th chords > > probably not all dominants, to be nitpicky... Minor seventh chords? I thought they would have been rarely used back then. I was assuming that a chord with a seventh added should take a major third. > I think the level of figuration reflects an attitude by the composer, > original publisher, or editor about how much information is useful. So any time we see a figured bass, we are looking a part that could have been written by the composer, the publisher, the editor, or maybe even the last person to have used that sheet music? I have one more question: where do I have to go to find editions of sonatas, arias, canzone etc. that contain figured bass parts, and not some ridiculous piano or (worse yet) guitar accompaniment part? David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.rastallmusic.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
On Monday, Oct 30, 2006, at 06:43 America/Los_Angeles, David Rastall wrote: > Minor seventh chords?- I thought they would have been rarely used back > then.- I was assuming that a chord with a seventh added should take a > major third. A dominant seventh is, strictly speaking, a seventh chord on the dominant. Excuse the lecture if you already know about this, but there is a set of defaults known as the "rule of the octave," which says that in the absence of figures you play a root position chord on the all the diatonic notes of the scale except the third and seventh (some sources also include the sixth) which take a first inversion (i.e. the figure 6), and all raised tones also take a 6. So in C major, D, will be minor, and so will E and A if they are root position and not 6 chords (i.e. e minor and a minor and not C major and F major), which will be the case if they have a seven under them. So in this passage from a Telemann recorder sonata in C: E A D G C 7 7 7 7 You get four sevenths in a row, and three of them are minor sevenths. There are similar passages in Corelli, I'm sure. > So any time we see a figured bass, we are looking a part that could > have been written by the composer, the publisher, the editor, or maybe > even the last person to have used that sheet music? All are possible, and you probably listed them in decreasing order of probability. And it can get a lot more complicated than that. If you're lucky, the modern editor will tell you all about it. For your immediate purposes, it's not critical; if you're learning how to play a 7-6 suspension, it doesn't really matter who wrote it. > --I have one more question:--where do I have to go to find editions of > sonatas, arias, canzone etc. that contain figured bass parts, and not > some ridiculous piano or (worse yet) guitar accompaniment part? Why not start here: http://icking-music-archive.org There's probably lots of good stuff in Gordon Callon's online archive, for which I don't seem to have the URL. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
On Monday, Oct 30, 2006, at 11:07 America/Los_Angeles, Mathias Rösel wrote: > >> fewer figures don't mean you must omit the sevenths and >> ninths > > Depends on the date of the music, I'd say. I for one can't imagine > chords like (or progressions of, for that matter) 7/9-dominants or > 5/6-subdominants _freely_ added in a piece of, say, Heinrich Schuetz. We were talking about what to do when those notes are in the melody parts. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
> Minor seventh chords? I thought they would have been rarely used > back then. One way, that is true, certainly: chords weren't used at all. A minor seventh more often than else resolves into a major sixth. > I have one more question: where do I have to go to find editions of > sonatas, arias, canzone etc. that contain figured bass parts, and not > some ridiculous piano or (worse yet) guitar accompaniment part? Facsimiles by S.P.E.S. or from TREE edition come to mind. Albert Reyerman recently published a facsimile of music (madrigals) by Verovio with parts and figured bass in grand staff and written out lute accompaniment in tablature. -- Best, Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
Howard and Mathias: many thanks for your input on my continuo question(s). Much appreciated. David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.rastallmusic.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Continuo Question
> "David van Ooijen" [EMAIL PROTECTED] scripsit > The figures in these openings tend to be very precicely decribing what > the voices above are doing. So it's not continuo as in 'play what you > like within these figures', but a shorthand for the voice leading of > the upper voices. That's how I interpret them, anyway. Don't mess too > much in openings of fugues, is my motto. Should be everyone's ^_^ Can't find chapter and verse right now, but contemporary sources (most probably tutors on continuo) had it that continuo in the sense of David's 'play what you like within these figures' was not supposed to start before the cue of the 3rd part. Mathias References 1. 3D"mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
