[LUTE] Re: Fret Calculator
Oops! I sent this to Dan, only; meatn it for the list (sorry, Dan, for the redundance): Regarding the acceptance (or lack thereof) of Equal Temp, I recommend the following: How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony (And Why You Should Care) Ross Duffin (2007) ISBN-13: 978-0-393-06227-4 You can find writings of Duffin on the web, also. Regards, Leonard Williams /[ ] / \ | * | \_=_/ On 12/2/08 11:28 AM, Daniel Winheld [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Even the piano (Ivers Pond, 1906- their Upright Grand) is tuned to temperament one of my students calls Victorian Meantone Whoops should have seen that one coming! From what the piano tuner told me, I gathered that it is one of a variety of well temperaments, similar to what J.S. Bach may have intended with his Well Tempered Clavier - that is, enough of a nod to the thirds that they sound better than equal, but compromised enough to make all keys useable. -True et took a LONG time to become universally accepted, and - more recently than one would have expected- but I would have to look - it up to give dates, places, venues menus so I'm stopping here. My tuner dude says that Victorian Meantone is not the true name for this temperament, but the wise-ass nickname that my lute student gives it. She also plays piano and employs his services; in fact she recommended him to me. Anytime any of you come out here, bring your piano with you and we'll fix you up with Larry Riley, a fine piano tuner indeed. Just out of curiosity, what exactly is Victorian Meantone? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Fret Calculator
Hi Dan, no I don't think it's an illusion. Tuning ET is very hard, because the major thirds are already right at the limit of what the ear will accept (many would say, beyond) so if they're just the tiniest bit too wide it sounds dreadful. But with meantone temperaments, the major thirds can be pure, or not so pure, but as long as they're somewhere between pure and ET it sounds OK. You tune a harpsichord in ET? Now that really is a sin. Try it in 1/4 comma, and play Byrd, then tell me you like it in ET. Best wishes, Martin Daniel Winheld wrote: Absolutely the best procedure; what I now use. I set frets by calculation only once, about 30 years ago. Came out so bad, I ran crying back to EQUAL (yecchh!) until about a month or so ago- not hard at all with a good tuner (and years of training, tuning my wife's harpsichord.) The cigar will always be a temporally unstable phenomenon; what with the nature of ambient humidity, temperature, the whims of organic visceral remains under tension, and of course one's own varying perceptual state. Nevertheless, I find tuning to go faster more easily in 1/4 comma meantone, and the instrument itself seems to hold the tuning better- now that has to be an illusion. Dan I can't see using a fret calculator for real world tuning, tune your open strings in the temperament you wish and then set your frets using the tuning box. If you wish to tweak the open strings, tune the top string, then set each fret with the box. Then tune the double octave to the top string, set those frets to the box. You will notice that the frets do not make exactly straight lines, which is normal--and shows that the fret calculator won't work. Then adjust the open strings anyway you like. You have to have the double octaves in tune or you will really hear it. This is the only system that will give you the actual, as opposed to theoretical values, as it will compensate for drift--unless you tune by ear. You will find, of course, that you will either have to choose between sharps and flats, especially for the first fret, or use tastini. The fret caluclator will get you close, but still a few millimeters from cigar. Have fun! dt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Fret Calculator
At 10:34 AM 12/2/2008, Daniel Winheld wrote: Even the piano (Ivers Pond, 1906- their Upright Grand) is tuned to temperament one of my students calls Victorian Meantone Just out of curiosity, what exactly is Victorian Meantone? Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Fret Calculator
On Tue, Dec 2, 2008, Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Just out of curiosity, what exactly is Victorian Meantone? perhaps it was last tuned in the victorian age? Should be strongly related to nickel-beer pianoroll meantone. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Fret Calculator
At 10:51 AM 12/2/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Dec 2, 2008, Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Just out of curiosity, what exactly is Victorian Meantone? perhaps it was last tuned in the victorian age? Should be strongly related to nickel-beer pianoroll meantone. Mmmm... Make mine a creamy stout. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Fret Calculator
You know you're all crazy, right...? On Dec 2, 2008, at 6:08 PM, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: At 10:51 AM 12/2/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Dec 2, 2008, Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Just out of curiosity, what exactly is Victorian Meantone? perhaps it was last tuned in the victorian age? Should be strongly related to nickel-beer pianoroll meantone. Mmmm... Make mine a creamy stout. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Fret Calculator
Indeed. At 11:08 AM 12/2/2008, Omer katzir wrote: You know you're all crazy, right...? On Dec 2, 2008, at 6:08 PM, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: At 10:51 AM 12/2/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Dec 2, 2008, Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Just out of curiosity, what exactly is Victorian Meantone? perhaps it was last tuned in the victorian age? Should be strongly related to nickel-beer pianoroll meantone. Mmmm... Make mine a creamy stout. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Fret Calculator
Even the piano (Ivers Pond, 1906- their Upright Grand) is tuned to temperament one of my students calls Victorian Meantone Whoops should have seen that one coming! From what the piano tuner told me, I gathered that it is one of a variety of well temperaments, similar to what J.S. Bach may have intended with his Well Tempered Clavier - that is, enough of a nod to the thirds that they sound better than equal, but compromised enough to make all keys useable. True et took a LONG time to become universally accepted, and more recently than one would have expected- but I would have to look it up to give dates, places, venues menus so I'm stopping here. My tuner dude says that Victorian Meantone is not the true name for this temperament, but the wise-ass nickname that my lute student gives it. She also plays piano and employs his services; in fact she recommended him to me. Anytime any of you come out here, bring your piano with you and we'll fix you up with Larry Riley, a fine piano tuner indeed. Just out of curiosity, what exactly is Victorian Meantone? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Fret Calculator
Only if last October was the Victorian age. We're nostalgic here in Berkeley, but it only goes back to the 1960's. That would be Free Speech Tear Gas temperament. perhaps it was last tuned in the victorian age? I like the beer part. Definitely improves the flavor of the thirds. Should be strongly related to nickel-beer pianoroll meantone. -- Dana Emery -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Fret Calculator
Or maybe the Panama Red temperament:-) Strictly San Francisco, and only the higher octaves. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Fret Calculator
If you keep the fretgut in the humidor with cigar you will be richly rewarded. dt At 07:03 PM 12/1/2008, you wrote: Absolutely the best procedure; what I now use. I set frets by calculation only once, about 30 years ago. Came out so bad, I ran crying back to EQUAL (yecchh!) until about a month or so ago- not hard at all with a good tuner (and years of training, tuning my wife's harpsichord.) The cigar will always be a temporally unstable phenomenon; what with the nature of ambient humidity, temperature, the whims of organic visceral remains under tension, and of course one's own varying perceptual state. Nevertheless, I find tuning to go faster more easily in 1/4 comma meantone, and the instrument itself seems to hold the tuning better- now that has to be an illusion. Dan I can't see using a fret calculator for real world tuning, tune your open strings in the temperament you wish and then set your frets using the tuning box. If you wish to tweak the open strings, tune the top string, then set each fret with the box. Then tune the double octave to the top string, set those frets to the box. You will notice that the frets do not make exactly straight lines, which is normal--and shows that the fret calculator won't work. Then adjust the open strings anyway you like. You have to have the double octaves in tune or you will really hear it. This is the only system that will give you the actual, as opposed to theoretical values, as it will compensate for drift--unless you tune by ear. You will find, of course, that you will either have to choose between sharps and flats, especially for the first fret, or use tastini. The fret caluclator will get you close, but still a few millimeters from cigar. Have fun! dt -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Fret Calculator
Dan, it is definitely time for another play, any themes, music you'd like to try? Or anyone else, you are all invited! d To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
