[LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique
I can't let this go uncorrected. I misspelled Barney's last name, it's "Kessel" not "Kessell". Gary - Original Message - From: "Edward Martin" To: "Gary Digman" Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 7:00 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique He was an optimist. At 04:13 AM 11/8/2010, you wrote: As the famous jazz guitarist, Barney Kessell, said, "The first thing you learn in music is that somebody will always come along who plays better than you do, is younger than you, dresses better than you do, and is better looking." Gary - Original Message - From: To: "Stephen Arndt" ; "Edward Mast" Cc: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" ; "David Tayler" Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 7:31 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique Hello Stephen, Edward and David, and everybody else, Ahh, digital edits. I work with Sound Forge on a regular basis, and the temptation is to remove all squeaks and splats, and copy/paste good notes over bad, so as to render a recording "perfect". Listen to a recording by somebody like Walther Gerwig, made before digital, and you will hear much more of a real performance. Of course, razor edits were possible, but very dangerous territory as they could not be undone. I read somewhere once that we get discouraged from playing and performing ourselves because we are constantly comparing our own playing to recordings of acknowledged masters - the top .0001% in the world. We are somehow led to believe that if we can't play like that we "ain't $#!+". It's a totally un-realistic expectation. While it's a noble goal to aspire to, we need to remember that there will always be somebody out there who can play circles around us (unless we happen to BE Paul, Nigel, Robert, or Ron). I just named 4 people. 4 people out of how many billions in the world? And these people have access to technology that can eliminate all of their fluffs and marginally played passages. So, I guess what I'm saying is that I think we shouldn't be overly hard on ourselves for the squeaks and splats that, really, are a natural part of playing a stringed instrument. They are actually a part of the overall sound. We tend to forgive them in performance and forget them quickly. On recordings they live forever, so that's why the pros do 2000 edits. One of the down-sides of modern recordings is that we are inadvertently led to feel that we should give it up and let the pros do it. But, think about people who played lutes in, say, 1630. They were mostly ordinary folks playing in their parlours for enjoyment. They had no CD players, etc. It was the only way to have music unless you were fabulously wealthy. And, while there may have been a high standard amongst performers and teachers of the time, most of that music was probably fraught with squeaks, splats, and worse. So, Stephen, take heart. There will always be a virtuoso that can make us look and feel puny (I feel like hanging up my guitar every time I see John Renbourn play), but we can still make a lot of beautiful sounds for our own enjoyment, and probably for the enjoyment of others as well. Tom Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistry.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362 Hi Stephen, My ability to get through a lute piece without mistakes or "twangs, splats, and squeaks" may be similar to yours. Very occasionally I do question myself about the sense of continuing an uphill struggle, but mostly not. As long as I sense any progress at all - and that may not be daily, but rather like a plateau learning process where a week can go by with no noticeable improvement and then suddenly you notice that a passage in a piece that didn't come out before now does - I'm encouraged to continue. And, beyond that, as with many endeavors, there is satisfaction in the process - in the discipline involved. To face a challenge and deal with it on a regular basis is reward in itself. So I say, be not discouraged. Keep practicing - keep playing! Best, Ned On Nov 7, 2010, at 8:29 PM, Stephen Arndt wrote: > Dear David, > > I had a very mixed reaction to your post. I am in no way a > professional musician, though I consider myself a serious, if not a > very accomplished, amateur (at least in the etymological sense of > the word). Often times I have listened to lute recordings and > thought, "I might as well just quit. I'll never play like that." I > can get through any given piece without an actual mistake (i.e., > playing a wrong note) only one time in a hundred perhaps and never > without "twangs, splats, and squeaks." So, I was consoled to learn > that even professional musicians may have up to 2,200 edits per CD. > Perhaps if I co
[LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique
I think it is a great idea, but there is no way to know if the CD has been edited. What people should release is videos of concerts. Then people can really see and hear something, if can't be there. I'm amazed that Bob could know that it was edited, I can't tell, even my own stuff, I absolutely cannot tell, years later, or even after a few months, what edits were on a CD. dt At 01:50 AM 11/8/2010, you wrote: >On 8 November 2010 10:38, David Tayler wrote: > > > And I think it is a big problem in Classical and Early music > > performance right now. > >I am in favour of a new standrad, a sticker on a CD saying: no >editing, or semi-live, or something similar. More people are bringing >out CDs without edits. Even if it's not in front of a live audience, >at least there is no splicing. Whole takes. Some listers commented on >YouTube being what-you-see-is-what-you-get, but even the one-take >camera shots can have edited audio tracks. > >I remember giving Bob Spencer my very first CD some 20 years ago. He >said: "Nice programme, but next time you shouldn't edit so much." He >was right. > >David > > > > >-- >*** >David van Ooijen >davidvanooi...@gmail.com >www.davidvanooijen.nl >*** > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique
My wife just got me two new shirts, new socks, a wool vest and hat for the recent birthday I just suffered. And a bottle of 2nd best Oban. So while losing out on the better/younger aspect of playing, my looks and wardrobe are now second to none. For a while. Dan- older, worser, but bravely continuing to play himself into a corner- with more splats, twangs, squeaks & dribbles than Jackson Pollock. >As the famous jazz guitarist, Barney Kessell, said, "The first thing >you learn in music is that somebody will always come along who plays >better than you do, is younger than you, dresses better than you do, >and is better looking." > >Gary -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique
Ned, --- On Sun, 11/7/10, Edward Mast wrote: > As long as I sense any progress at all - > and that may not be daily, but rather like a plateau > learning process where a week can go by with no noticeable > improvement and then suddenly you notice that a passage in a > piece that didn't come out before now does - I'm encouraged > to continue. A week!?!? Good God, I would be thrilled to be able to measure progress on a weekly basis - that would be lightening fast! Daily is out of the question. If I notice any improvement of some issue - and it might be one thing like string accuracy, chord balance, cleanliness of slurs, etc. - over several months I feel like I'm making good, solid progress. You do (very) rarely have those breakthrough "ah-ha!" moments, but usually I expect things to change only over years. I know people at Eastman who are running the competition circuit and have been practicing the same exact program for five years. Keep at it. If you want you really want to improve, focus on what you DON'T do well. Then spend a lot of time doing that, paying really close attention to how you do it. Mark Twain said, "The only way to keep your health is to eat what you don't want, drink what you don't like, and do what you'd rather not." That's true in music: practice the stuff that's not fun and suddenly playing the stuff you want gets a lot more fun because you're doing it better. Then, be sure reward yourself by eating, drinking or doing something you rather would. Chris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique
Music study is a lifelong process. Enjoy the ride. The only reason to do this is because you love doing it. If you can quit, you should. Gary A quote (not verbatim though...) from William Blake apropos - "The proclivities that could be controlled are not worth cultivating". ' RT Hi Stephen, My ability to get through a lute piece without mistakes or "twangs, splats, and squeaks" may be similar to yours. Very occasionally I do question myself about the sense of continuing an uphill struggle, but mostly not. As long as I sense any progress at all - and that may not be daily, but rather like a plateau learning process where a week can go by with no noticeable improvement and then suddenly you notice that a passage in a piece that didn't come out before now does - I'm encouraged to continue. And, beyond that, as with many endeavors, there is satisfaction in the process - in the discipline involved. To face a challenge and deal with it on a regular basis is reward in itself. So I say, be not discouraged. Keep practicing - keep playing! Best, Ned On Nov 7, 2010, at 8:29 PM, Stephen Arndt wrote: Dear David, I had a very mixed reaction to your post. I am in no way a professional musician, though I consider myself a serious, if not a very accomplished, amateur (at least in the etymological sense of the word). Often times I have listened to lute recordings and thought, "I might as well just quit. I'll never play like that." I can get through any given piece without an actual mistake (i.e., playing a wrong note) only one time in a hundred perhaps and never without "twangs, splats, and squeaks." So, I was consoled to learn that even professional musicians may have up to 2,200 edits per CD. Perhaps if I could edit myself "every 2 seconds," I wouldn't sound so bad after all. It could well be that commercial CDs set artificially and therefore unrealistically high standards of performance. On the other hand, your most recent video (I think), "It's a Wonder to See," has absolutely no "twangs, splats, and squeaks" or any other imperfections that could be edited out, so I am back to thin! king, "I might as well just quit. I'll never play like that." I am not addressing myself now to the Paul O'Dettes, Nigel Norths, or Robert Bartos among us (or even to the highly accomplished Daniel Shoskes or Valéry Sauvages among us), but just to the average lute player, whoever you may be. Do you have similar thoughts and feelings? Do you alternate between "I love this more than anything" and "I'll never be any good at this"? Maybe we should form a support group. Please let me hear from you. Stephen Arndt ---------------------- From: "David Tayler" Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 2:55 PM To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" Subject: [LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique Live music is great! A typical classical music CD has 800 edits, a typical solo CD, such as guitar, lute, harpsichord, etc, varies, but the high and low numbers for the albums I hvae worked range from 450-2200 Now 2200 edits is a a very large number, that's 2200 twangs splats and squeeks that have been removed. Basically, a correction has been applied every 2 seconds. So, live music is better. By going to a real concert, you hear something that is real, and support musicians directly. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.864 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3241 - Release Date: 11/06/10 11:34:00
[LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique
Thank you Tom, Gary and David for your thoughts. And for the wonderful quote from Barney Kessell! Ned On Nov 8, 2010, at 5:13 AM, Gary Digman wrote: > As the famous jazz guitarist, Barney Kessell, said, "The first thing you > learn in music is that somebody will always come along who plays better than > you do, is younger than you, dresses better than you do, and is better > looking." > > Gary > > - Original Message - From: > To: "Stephen Arndt" ; "Edward Mast" > > Cc: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" ; "David Tayler" > > Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 7:31 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique > > >> Hello Stephen, Edward and David, and everybody else, >> Ahh, digital edits. I work with Sound Forge on a regular basis, and the >> temptation is to >> remove all squeaks and splats, and copy/paste good notes over bad, so as to >> render a >> recording "perfect". Listen to a recording by somebody like Walther Gerwig, >> made before >> digital, and you will hear much more of a real performance. Of course, >> razor edits were >> possible, but very dangerous territory as they could not be undone. >> I read somewhere once that we get discouraged from playing and performing >> ourselves >> because we are constantly comparing our own playing to recordings of >> acknowledged >> masters - the top .0001% in the world. We are somehow led to believe that >> if we can't play >> like that we "ain't $#!+". It's a totally un-realistic expectation. While >> it's a noble goal to aspire >> to, we need to remember that there will always be somebody out there who can >> play circles >> around us (unless we happen to BE Paul, Nigel, Robert, or Ron). >> I just named 4 people. 4 people out of how many billions in the world? >> And these people have access to technology that can eliminate all of their >> fluffs and >> marginally played passages. >> So, I guess what I'm saying is that I think we shouldn't be overly hard on >> ourselves for the >> squeaks and splats that, really, are a natural part of playing a stringed >> instrument. They are >> actually a part of the overall sound. We tend to forgive them in >> performance and forget them >> quickly. On recordings they live forever, so that's why the pros do 2000 >> edits. >> One of the down-sides of modern recordings is that we are inadvertently led >> to feel that we >> should give it up and let the pros do it. But, think about people who >> played lutes in, say, >> 1630. They were mostly ordinary folks playing in their parlours for >> enjoyment. They had no >> CD players, etc. It was the only way to have music unless you were >> fabulously wealthy. And, >> while there may have been a high standard amongst performers and teachers of >> the time, >> most of that music was probably fraught with squeaks, splats, and worse. >> So, Stephen, take heart. There will always be a virtuoso that can make us >> look and feel >> puny (I feel like hanging up my guitar every time I see John Renbourn play), >> but we can still >> make a lot of beautiful sounds for our own enjoyment, and probably for the >> enjoyment of >> others as well. >> Tom >> >> Tom Draughon >> Heartistry Music >> http://www.heartistry.com/artists/tom.html >> 714 9th Avenue West >> Ashland, WI 54806 >> 715-682-9362 >>> Hi Stephen, >>> >>> My ability to get through a lute piece without mistakes or "twangs, >>> splats, and squeaks" may be similar to yours. Very occasionally I do >>> question myself about the sense of continuing an uphill struggle, but >>> mostly not. As long as I sense any progress at all - and that may >>> not be daily, but rather like a plateau learning process where a week >>> can go by with no noticeable improvement and then suddenly you notice >>> that a passage in a piece that didn't come out before now does - I'm >>> encouraged to continue. And, beyond that, as with many endeavors, >>> there is satisfaction in the process - in the discipline involved. To >>> face a challenge and deal with it on a regular basis is reward in >>> itself. So I say, be not discouraged. Keep practicing - keep >>> playing! >>> >>> Best, Ned >>> On Nov 7, 2010, at 8:29 PM, Stephen Arndt wrote: >>> >>> > Dear David, >>> > >>> > I had a
[LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique
As the famous jazz guitarist, Barney Kessell, said, "The first thing you learn in music is that somebody will always come along who plays better than you do, is younger than you, dresses better than you do, and is better looking." Gary - Original Message - From: To: "Stephen Arndt" ; "Edward Mast" Cc: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" ; "David Tayler" Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 7:31 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique Hello Stephen, Edward and David, and everybody else, Ahh, digital edits. I work with Sound Forge on a regular basis, and the temptation is to remove all squeaks and splats, and copy/paste good notes over bad, so as to render a recording "perfect". Listen to a recording by somebody like Walther Gerwig, made before digital, and you will hear much more of a real performance. Of course, razor edits were possible, but very dangerous territory as they could not be undone. I read somewhere once that we get discouraged from playing and performing ourselves because we are constantly comparing our own playing to recordings of acknowledged masters - the top .0001% in the world. We are somehow led to believe that if we can't play like that we "ain't $#!+". It's a totally un-realistic expectation. While it's a noble goal to aspire to, we need to remember that there will always be somebody out there who can play circles around us (unless we happen to BE Paul, Nigel, Robert, or Ron). I just named 4 people. 4 people out of how many billions in the world? And these people have access to technology that can eliminate all of their fluffs and marginally played passages. So, I guess what I'm saying is that I think we shouldn't be overly hard on ourselves for the squeaks and splats that, really, are a natural part of playing a stringed instrument. They are actually a part of the overall sound. We tend to forgive them in performance and forget them quickly. On recordings they live forever, so that's why the pros do 2000 edits. One of the down-sides of modern recordings is that we are inadvertently led to feel that we should give it up and let the pros do it. But, think about people who played lutes in, say, 1630. They were mostly ordinary folks playing in their parlours for enjoyment. They had no CD players, etc. It was the only way to have music unless you were fabulously wealthy. And, while there may have been a high standard amongst performers and teachers of the time, most of that music was probably fraught with squeaks, splats, and worse. So, Stephen, take heart. There will always be a virtuoso that can make us look and feel puny (I feel like hanging up my guitar every time I see John Renbourn play), but we can still make a lot of beautiful sounds for our own enjoyment, and probably for the enjoyment of others as well. Tom Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistry.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362 Hi Stephen, My ability to get through a lute piece without mistakes or "twangs, splats, and squeaks" may be similar to yours. Very occasionally I do question myself about the sense of continuing an uphill struggle, but mostly not. As long as I sense any progress at all - and that may not be daily, but rather like a plateau learning process where a week can go by with no noticeable improvement and then suddenly you notice that a passage in a piece that didn't come out before now does - I'm encouraged to continue. And, beyond that, as with many endeavors, there is satisfaction in the process - in the discipline involved. To face a challenge and deal with it on a regular basis is reward in itself. So I say, be not discouraged. Keep practicing - keep playing! Best, Ned On Nov 7, 2010, at 8:29 PM, Stephen Arndt wrote: > Dear David, > > I had a very mixed reaction to your post. I am in no way a > professional musician, though I consider myself a serious, if not a > very accomplished, amateur (at least in the etymological sense of > the word). Often times I have listened to lute recordings and > thought, "I might as well just quit. I'll never play like that." I > can get through any given piece without an actual mistake (i.e., > playing a wrong note) only one time in a hundred perhaps and never > without "twangs, splats, and squeaks." So, I was consoled to learn > that even professional musicians may have up to 2,200 edits per CD. > Perhaps if I could edit myself "every 2 seconds," I wouldn't sound > so bad after all. It could well be that commercial CDs set > artificially and therefore unrealistically high standards of > performance. On the other hand, your most recent video (I think), > "It's a Wonder to See," has absolutely no "twangs, splat
[LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique
Music study is a lifelong process. Enjoy the ride. The only reason to do this is because you love doing it. If you can quit, you should. Gary - Original Message - From: "Edward Mast" To: "Stephen Arndt" Cc: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" ; "David Tayler" Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 6:17 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique Hi Stephen, My ability to get through a lute piece without mistakes or "twangs, splats, and squeaks" may be similar to yours. Very occasionally I do question myself about the sense of continuing an uphill struggle, but mostly not. As long as I sense any progress at all - and that may not be daily, but rather like a plateau learning process where a week can go by with no noticeable improvement and then suddenly you notice that a passage in a piece that didn't come out before now does - I'm encouraged to continue. And, beyond that, as with many endeavors, there is satisfaction in the process - in the discipline involved. To face a challenge and deal with it on a regular basis is reward in itself. So I say, be not discouraged. Keep practicing - keep playing! Best, Ned On Nov 7, 2010, at 8:29 PM, Stephen Arndt wrote: Dear David, I had a very mixed reaction to your post. I am in no way a professional musician, though I consider myself a serious, if not a very accomplished, amateur (at least in the etymological sense of the word). Often times I have listened to lute recordings and thought, "I might as well just quit. I'll never play like that." I can get through any given piece without an actual mistake (i.e., playing a wrong note) only one time in a hundred perhaps and never without "twangs, splats, and squeaks." So, I was consoled to learn that even professional musicians may have up to 2,200 edits per CD. Perhaps if I could edit myself "every 2 seconds," I wouldn't sound so bad after all. It could well be that commercial CDs set artificially and therefore unrealistically high standards of performance. On the other hand, your most recent video (I think), "It's a Wonder to See," has absolutely no "twangs, splats, and squeaks" or any other imperfections that could be edited out, so I am back to thin! king, "I might as well just quit. I'll never play like that." I am not addressing myself now to the Paul O'Dettes, Nigel Norths, or Robert Bartos among us (or even to the highly accomplished Daniel Shoskes or Valéry Sauvages among us), but just to the average lute player, whoever you may be. Do you have similar thoughts and feelings? Do you alternate between "I love this more than anything" and "I'll never be any good at this"? Maybe we should form a support group. Please let me hear from you. Stephen Arndt ---------- From: "David Tayler" Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 2:55 PM To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" Subject: [LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique Live music is great! A typical classical music CD has 800 edits, a typical solo CD, such as guitar, lute, harpsichord, etc, varies, but the high and low numbers for the albums I hvae worked range from 450-2200 Now 2200 edits is a a very large number, that's 2200 twangs splats and squeeks that have been removed. Basically, a correction has been applied every 2 seconds. So, live music is better. By going to a real concert, you hear something that is real, and support musicians directly. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.864 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3241 - Release Date: 11/06/10 11:34:00
[LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique
On 8 November 2010 10:38, David Tayler wrote: > And I think it is a big problem in Classical and Early music > performance right now. I am in favour of a new standrad, a sticker on a CD saying: no editing, or semi-live, or something similar. More people are bringing out CDs without edits. Even if it's not in front of a live audience, at least there is no splicing. Whole takes. Some listers commented on YouTube being what-you-see-is-what-you-get, but even the one-take camera shots can have edited audio tracks. I remember giving Bob Spencer my very first CD some 20 years ago. He said: "Nice programme, but next time you shouldn't edit so much." He was right. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique
It's only really important to know about the editing so that you will find on your own what is true and important about your playing. If you hear the perfect CD, then you think, I'll never be that good. So the CD creates a semi-permanent negative reality that holds you back. And I think it is a big problem in Classical and Early music performance right now. And yes, if you send me two takes, each of which had a mistake very other bar, but never exactly in the same place, I could edit it perfect. But the important thing is to not lose sight of the music. Forget about the artificial standard and just enjoy this amazing, life altering music. I spent about six months trying to learn the Song of the Birds by Francesco--the F minor version, and I could never play it up to my standard. II could play it by slightly slowing downn the fast notes, and a few other tricks, but at the end ofthe day, it was not good enough. It was a pretty big disappointment. But I could record it, I guess, a bar at a time.but then it would cross some line. But it was a great challenge. Every day is square one for me, and that's OK. But hey, maybe someday I'll play that piece--errr big maybe. dt At 05:29 PM 11/7/2010, you wrote: >Dear David, > >I had a very mixed reaction to your post. I am in no way a >professional musician, though I consider myself a serious, if not a >very accomplished, amateur (at least in the etymological sense of >the word). Often times I have listened to lute recordings and >thought, "I might as well just quit. I'll never play like that." I >can get through any given piece without an actual mistake (i.e., >playing a wrong note) only one time in a hundred perhaps and never >without "twangs, splats, and squeaks." So, I was consoled to learn >that even professional musicians may have up to 2,200 edits per CD. >Perhaps if I could edit myself "every 2 seconds," I wouldn't sound >so bad after all. It could well be that commercial CDs set >artificially and therefore unrealistically high standards of performance. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique
among us (or even to the highly accomplished Daniel > > Shoskes or Valéry Sauvages among us), but just to the average lute > > player, whoever you may be. Do you have similar thoughts and > > feelings? Do you alternate between "I love this more than anything" > > and "I'll never be any good at this"? Maybe we should form a support > > group. Please let me hear from you. > > > > Stephen Arndt > > > > -- > > From: "David Tayler" > > Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 2:55 PM > > To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique > > > >> Live music is great! > >> A typical classical music CD has 800 edits, a typical solo CD, such > >> as guitar, lute, harpsichord, etc, varies, but the high and low > >> numbers for the albums I hvae worked range from 450-2200 Now 2200 > >> edits is a a very large number, that's 2200 twangs splats and > >> squeeks that have been removed. Basically, a correction has been > >> applied every 2 seconds. So, live music is better. By going to a > >> real concert, you hear something that is real, and support > >> musicians directly. > >> > >> > >> > >> To get on or off this list see list information at > >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistry.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362
[LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique
Hi Stephen, My ability to get through a lute piece without mistakes or "twangs, splats, and squeaks" may be similar to yours. Very occasionally I do question myself about the sense of continuing an uphill struggle, but mostly not. As long as I sense any progress at all - and that may not be daily, but rather like a plateau learning process where a week can go by with no noticeable improvement and then suddenly you notice that a passage in a piece that didn't come out before now does - I'm encouraged to continue. And, beyond that, as with many endeavors, there is satisfaction in the process - in the discipline involved. To face a challenge and deal with it on a regular basis is reward in itself. So I say, be not discouraged. Keep practicing - keep playing! Best, Ned On Nov 7, 2010, at 8:29 PM, Stephen Arndt wrote: > Dear David, > > I had a very mixed reaction to your post. I am in no way a professional > musician, though I consider myself a serious, if not a very accomplished, > amateur (at least in the etymological sense of the word). Often times I have > listened to lute recordings and thought, "I might as well just quit. I'll > never play like that." I can get through any given piece without an actual > mistake (i.e., playing a wrong note) only one time in a hundred perhaps and > never without "twangs, splats, and squeaks." So, I was consoled to learn that > even professional musicians may have up to 2,200 edits per CD. Perhaps if I > could edit myself "every 2 seconds," I wouldn't sound so bad after all. It > could well be that commercial CDs set artificially and therefore > unrealistically high standards of performance. On the other hand, your most > recent video (I think), "It's a Wonder to See," has absolutely no "twangs, > splats, and squeaks" or any other imperfections that could be edited out, so > I am back to thin! king, "I might as well just quit. I'll never play like that." > > I am not addressing myself now to the Paul O'Dettes, Nigel Norths, or Robert > Bartos among us (or even to the highly accomplished Daniel Shoskes or Valéry > Sauvages among us), but just to the average lute player, whoever you may be. > Do you have similar thoughts and feelings? Do you alternate between "I love > this more than anything" and "I'll never be any good at this"? Maybe we > should form a support group. Please let me hear from you. > > Stephen Arndt > > -- > From: "David Tayler" > Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 2:55 PM > To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" > Subject: [LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique > >> Live music is great! >> A typical classical music CD has 800 edits, a typical solo CD, such >> as guitar, lute, harpsichord, etc, varies, but the high and low >> numbers for the albums I hvae worked range from 450-2200 >> Now 2200 edits is a a very large number, that's 2200 twangs splats >> and squeeks that have been removed. Basically, a correction has been >> applied every 2 seconds. >> So, live music is better. By going to a real concert, you hear >> something that is real, and support musicians directly. >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique
Dear David, I had a very mixed reaction to your post. I am in no way a professional musician, though I consider myself a serious, if not a very accomplished, amateur (at least in the etymological sense of the word). Often times I have listened to lute recordings and thought, "I might as well just quit. I'll never play like that." I can get through any given piece without an actual mistake (i.e., playing a wrong note) only one time in a hundred perhaps and never without "twangs, splats, and squeaks." So, I was consoled to learn that even professional musicians may have up to 2,200 edits per CD. Perhaps if I could edit myself "every 2 seconds," I wouldn't sound so bad after all. It could well be that commercial CDs set artificially and therefore unrealistically high standards of performance. On the other hand, your most recent video (I think), "It's a Wonder to See," has absolutely no "twangs, splats, and squeaks" or any other imperfections that could be edited out, so I am back to thinking, "I might as well just quit. I'll never play like that." I am not addressing myself now to the Paul O'Dettes, Nigel Norths, or Robert Bartos among us (or even to the highly accomplished Daniel Shoskes or Valéry Sauvages among us), but just to the average lute player, whoever you may be. Do you have similar thoughts and feelings? Do you alternate between "I love this more than anything" and "I'll never be any good at this"? Maybe we should form a support group. Please let me hear from you. Stephen Arndt ------ From: "David Tayler" Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 2:55 PM To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" Subject: [LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique Live music is great! A typical classical music CD has 800 edits, a typical solo CD, such as guitar, lute, harpsichord, etc, varies, but the high and low numbers for the albums I hvae worked range from 450-2200 Now 2200 edits is a a very large number, that's 2200 twangs splats and squeeks that have been removed. Basically, a correction has been applied every 2 seconds. So, live music is better. By going to a real concert, you hear something that is real, and support musicians directly. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique
I'm in awe of the players who put pieces on Youtube without any edits. I've put a few very short pieces on (some months ago before I had more sense) and can appreciate the difficulties involved in maintaining concentration and control even for two or three minutes. When a slip is made in performance, that's it. But in a recording - even for Youtube - one usually (at least I would) goes back and redoes the whole piece again. Of course, the problem with this is that one tends - at least I suspect most would tend - to become quite cautious in playing. Especially the further along one becomes in the recording process. On the other side of the coin, with the possibility of edits, a player can take risks, knowing that at least minor miscues can be corrected. On Nov 7, 2010, at 3:55 PM, David Tayler wrote: > (snip) >> Last night I heard a very nice concert of mostly Baroque >> guitar. This is not an instrument I have any experience on, so I >> have a question. While the music was played with great style and >> expressiveness, I noticed some things that in a lute player I would >> not think that good. Things like squeeks, and twangs, and notes that >> in the contrapuntal texture were inappropriately loud or soft. > > Live music is great! > A typical classical music CD has 800 edits, a typical solo CD, such > as guitar, lute, harpsichord, etc, varies, but the high and low > numbers for the albums I hvae worked range from 450-2200 > Now 2200 edits is a a very large number, that's 2200 twangs splats > and squeeks that have been removed. Basically, a correction has been > applied every 2 seconds. > So, live music is better. By going to a real concert, you hear > something that is real, and support musicians directly. > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique
An avant-garde ex-rock guitarist I work with told me just two days ago that he would rather give a mediocre live performance than put out a great CD. (And I happen to own a fine CD that he put out a few years ago.) Dan >Live music is great! >A typical classical music CD has 800 edits, a typical solo CD, such >as guitar, lute, harpsichord, etc, varies, but the high and low >numbers for the albums I hvae worked range from 450-2200 >Now 2200 edits is a a very large number, that's 2200 twangs splats >and squeeks that have been removed. Basically, a correction has been >applied every 2 seconds. >So, live music is better. By going to a real concert, you hear >something that is real, and support musicians directly. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique
On 07/11/2010 20:55, David Tayler wrote: (snip) Last night I heard a very nice concert of mostly Baroque guitar. This is not an instrument I have any experience on, so I have a question. While the music was played with great style and expressiveness, I noticed some things that in a lute player I would not think that good. Things like squeeks, and twangs, and notes that in the contrapuntal texture were inappropriately loud or soft. Live music is great! A typical classical music CD has 800 edits, a typical solo CD, such as guitar, lute, harpsichord, etc, varies, but the high and low numbers for the albums I hvae worked range from 450-2200 Now 2200 edits is a a very large number, that's 2200 twangs splats and squeeks that have been removed. Basically, a correction has been applied every 2 seconds. So, live music is better. By going to a real concert, you hear something that is real, and support musicians directly. Amazing - that's a colossal amount of editing! But getting back to Suzanne's original question: "So my question is this: Is it technically harder for some reason to play contrapuntal style pieces on Baroque guitar than Ren lute?" ..and to take it in yet another direction. I haven't heard many Baroque guitar performances but mostly I've not been very impressed. I remember even Nigel North (as someone who can really spellbind an audience) didn't sound that good: he didn't make the music come across vividly. (Though maybe this is because he is not a specialist) Obviously the Baroque guitar can't be more difficult technically than all the complex lute pieces - but it really is a difficult instrument, I think, and it must be a difficult instrument to perform on and delight and communicate to an audience. The guitar's 'mixed style' of brushing/strumming and fingerstyle play is very demanding and the music written for it (in the styles of the time) is usually quite amorphous. And the tuning issues of the two lower courses which so trouble Monica and Lex just add to the overall difficulty of focus and clarity in the music. It's hard to beat struggling with the wayward instrument and its wayward music yourself. So I suspect it really is more difficult to successfully communicate to an audience on a Baroque guitar (playing fancy stuff) than on a Renaissance lute. I once suggested this to a professional musician and he disagreed. But I think he just plays just a few well-chosen pieces - including the Sanz Canarios, which most people know anyway. (He plays it with exuberance and verve and..dare it be said...bourdons on both!!) Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique
Hear, hear! David On 7 November 2010 21:55, David Tayler wrote: > (snip) >>Last night I heard a very nice concert of mostly Baroque >>guitar. This is not an instrument I have any experience on, so I >>have a question. While the music was played with great style and >>expressiveness, I noticed some things that in a lute player I would >>not think that good. Things like squeeks, and twangs, and notes that >>in the contrapuntal texture were inappropriately loud or soft. > > Live music is great! > A typical classical music CD has 800 edits, a typical solo CD, such > as guitar, lute, harpsichord, etc, varies, but the high and low > numbers for the albums I hvae worked range from 450-2200 > Now 2200 edits is a a very large number, that's 2200 twangs splats > and squeeks that have been removed. Basically, a correction has been > applied every 2 seconds. > So, live music is better. By going to a real concert, you hear > something that is real, and support musicians directly. > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl ***
[LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique
(snip) >Last night I heard a very nice concert of mostly Baroque >guitar. This is not an instrument I have any experience on, so I >have a question. While the music was played with great style and >expressiveness, I noticed some things that in a lute player I would >not think that good. Things like squeeks, and twangs, and notes that >in the contrapuntal texture were inappropriately loud or soft. Live music is great! A typical classical music CD has 800 edits, a typical solo CD, such as guitar, lute, harpsichord, etc, varies, but the high and low numbers for the albums I hvae worked range from 450-2200 Now 2200 edits is a a very large number, that's 2200 twangs splats and squeeks that have been removed. Basically, a correction has been applied every 2 seconds. So, live music is better. By going to a real concert, you hear something that is real, and support musicians directly. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique
Sent my reply to the wrong list - for what it is worth. Gaspar Sanz: For those who wish to use the guitar to play noisy music, or to accompany the bass of a tono [a vocal work] or sonada, the guitar is better strung with bourdons than without them His examples of basso continuo in tablature are completely without strumming. There are two parts to this comment. Bourdons are useful when a.Playing noisy music. b. When accomapanying a bass line. There is nothing contradictory in what Sanz says or does. I would have thought that was obvious. Furthermore his examples are designed to illustrate how a bass line can be accompanied in one particular way. They don't rule out the possibility that the accompaniment might also be strummed (nor does Doisi de Velasco's) You have thin sounding passage work punctuated by thumping 5-part chords - and no reall bass line. The balance depends fully on the technical abilities of the player, not on octave strings. I have yet to hear a player who possessed this techical ability and the player in question certainly didn't - on his CD anyway. I haven't heard him play live but the person who started this discussion had and apparently wasn't very impressed. MH To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique
Monica Hall wrote: > Double octave stringing is mostly suitable only for strumming as Sanz says. Gaspar Sanz: For those who wish to use the guitar to play noisy music, or to accompany the bass of a tono [a vocal work] or sonada, the guitar is better strung with bourdons than without them His examples of basso continuo in tablature are completely without strumming. > And there is a tendency to overdo the vigorous strumming anyway. > One of the other problems with using octave stringing in music like > Roncalli's is that it creates an imbalence between the strummed chords and the counterpoint. > You have thin sounding passage work punctuated by thumping 5-part chords - and no reall bass line. The balance depends fully on the technical abilities of the player, not on octave strings. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique
It depends a bit on what else he was playing of course! But on his CD he claims that this is the method of stringing Roncalli preferred for which assertion there is no evidence at all. Double octave stringing is mostly suitable only for strumming as Sanz says. And there is a tendency to overdo the vigorous strumming anyway. One of the other problems with using octave stringing in music like Roncalli's is that it creates an imbalence between the strummed chords and the counterpoint. You have thin sounding passage work punctuated by thumping 5-part chords - and no reall bass line. You can't win. Monica - Original Message - From: "Suzanne Angevine" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Lutelist" Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 3:25 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique I heard this performer give a lecture demonstration earlier in the day, which is why I know how it was strung. His comments on that were that one had to make compromises and select music for a concert that worked with the stringing chosen. I'm well aware that he did pluck only one or the other of the octave strings in various other places in the concert. The Roncalli was by no means the show piece of the concert, and perhaps for the other things the octave stringing was good. This performer seems to like vigorous strumming, to the point of chipping his artificially enhanced (it appeared) nails. I imagine that for strumming the octave stringing works nicely. Suzanne On 11/1/2010 3:52 AM, Monica Hall wrote: Well - this isn't really the place to start yet another discussion about the stringing of the baroque guitar but if he was using octave stringing on the fifth course for Roncalli I think he was mistaken. I think I can guess who it was as he has recorded a lot of Roncalli's music. It also explains what you said about inappropriately loud or soft notes in the counterpoint. The idea is that you leave out one or other string of a course when using octave stringing and it just doesn't work in practice. It simply makes the music sound unbalenced. The best recording of Roncalli's music is one made by Jorge Oraison some time ago but I think it is no longer available. Monica - Original Message - From: "Suzanne Angevine" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Lutelist" Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 9:46 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique I believe that he was playing on gut strings. I believe the tuning was octaves on the lowest 2 courses. I think the piece I had the thought on was a sonata by Roncalli. But maybe I just expect too much perfection in a live concert. hard to compare with recordings and you tubes. Suzanne On 10/31/2010 10:33 AM, Monica Hall wrote: Well - without knowing who was playing or what they were playing it is difficult to comment. There certainly shouldn't be any squeaks or twangs if they using suitable strings - i.e. plain gut. The method of stringing used is also important. It is certainly harder to play contrapuntal pieces on the baroque guitar because of the limited compass and if octave stringing is being used. It is also difficult to balence strummed chords with the 2- and 3-part counterpoint. That said there are lots of attractive recordings of solo music - I am just writing a review of Gordon Ferries CD of music by Bartolotti - on the Delphian label - DCD 34066 and I would also recommend Francesco Corbetta/Robert de Visée, Une larme. Rosario Conte (baroque guitar). Carpe Diem, CD 16278. Cheers Monica - Original Message - From: "Suzanne Angevine" To: "Lute List" Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 4:20 PM Subject: [LUTE] OT: Baroque Guitar technique Last night I heard a very nice concert of mostly Baroque guitar. This is not an instrument I have any experience on, so I have a question. While the music was played with great style and expressiveness, I noticed some things that in a lute player I would not think that good. Things like squeeks, and twangs, and notes that in the contrapuntal texture were inappropriately loud or soft. Now I know on lute that it takes a fine degree of excellence, such as Paul O'Dette, to play without these things, and to bring out the essence of the music clearly. I also know from my own limited amateur abilities that it is much easier to hear what you *want* to hear, how you think the music should go, than it is to hear how you're actually playing. So my question is this: Is it technically harder for some reason to play contrapuntal style pieces on Baroque guitar than Ren lute? It seems the real strength of the Baroque guitar in modern usage is loud strumming as part of a continuo group, and at this it is clearly excellent. But I've not heard so many people play serious solo pieces on the instrument. Suzanne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique
I heard this performer give a lecture demonstration earlier in the day, which is why I know how it was strung. His comments on that were that one had to make compromises and select music for a concert that worked with the stringing chosen. I'm well aware that he did pluck only one or the other of the octave strings in various other places in the concert. The Roncalli was by no means the show piece of the concert, and perhaps for the other things the octave stringing was good. This performer seems to like vigorous strumming, to the point of chipping his artificially enhanced (it appeared) nails. I imagine that for strumming the octave stringing works nicely. Suzanne On 11/1/2010 3:52 AM, Monica Hall wrote: Well - this isn't really the place to start yet another discussion about the stringing of the baroque guitar but if he was using octave stringing on the fifth course for Roncalli I think he was mistaken. I think I can guess who it was as he has recorded a lot of Roncalli's music. It also explains what you said about inappropriately loud or soft notes in the counterpoint. The idea is that you leave out one or other string of a course when using octave stringing and it just doesn't work in practice. It simply makes the music sound unbalenced. The best recording of Roncalli's music is one made by Jorge Oraison some time ago but I think it is no longer available. Monica - Original Message - From: "Suzanne Angevine" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Lutelist" Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 9:46 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique I believe that he was playing on gut strings. I believe the tuning was octaves on the lowest 2 courses. I think the piece I had the thought on was a sonata by Roncalli. But maybe I just expect too much perfection in a live concert. hard to compare with recordings and you tubes. Suzanne On 10/31/2010 10:33 AM, Monica Hall wrote: Well - without knowing who was playing or what they were playing it is difficult to comment. There certainly shouldn't be any squeaks or twangs if they using suitable strings - i.e. plain gut. The method of stringing used is also important. It is certainly harder to play contrapuntal pieces on the baroque guitar because of the limited compass and if octave stringing is being used. It is also difficult to balence strummed chords with the 2- and 3-part counterpoint. That said there are lots of attractive recordings of solo music - I am just writing a review of Gordon Ferries CD of music by Bartolotti - on the Delphian label - DCD 34066 and I would also recommend Francesco Corbetta/Robert de Visée, Une larme. Rosario Conte (baroque guitar). Carpe Diem, CD 16278. Cheers Monica - Original Message - From: "Suzanne Angevine" To: "Lute List" Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 4:20 PM Subject: [LUTE] OT: Baroque Guitar technique Last night I heard a very nice concert of mostly Baroque guitar. This is not an instrument I have any experience on, so I have a question. While the music was played with great style and expressiveness, I noticed some things that in a lute player I would not think that good. Things like squeeks, and twangs, and notes that in the contrapuntal texture were inappropriately loud or soft. Now I know on lute that it takes a fine degree of excellence, such as Paul O'Dette, to play without these things, and to bring out the essence of the music clearly. I also know from my own limited amateur abilities that it is much easier to hear what you *want* to hear, how you think the music should go, than it is to hear how you're actually playing. So my question is this: Is it technically harder for some reason to play contrapuntal style pieces on Baroque guitar than Ren lute? It seems the real strength of the Baroque guitar in modern usage is loud strumming as part of a continuo group, and at this it is clearly excellent. But I've not heard so many people play serious solo pieces on the instrument. Suzanne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique
That is who I suspected. What is interesting is that Suzanne's remarks are those of someone who is completely unbiased and yet she has confirmed all my own prejudices. Monica - Original Message - From: "Peter Martin" To: "Lute list" Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 10:07 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique [1]http://www.earlymusiccolorado.org/emc_FF%202010.html maybe? On 1 November 2010 02:21, <[2]delphinconsult...@earthlink.net> wrote: So, who was the performer? Suzanne Angevine <[3]suzanne.angev...@gmail.com> wrote: >I believe that he was playing on gut strings. I believe the tuning was >octaves on the lowest 2 courses. I think the piece I had the thought on >was a sonata by Roncalli. But maybe I just expect too much perfection >in a live concert. hard to compare with recordings and you tubes. > >Suzanne > -- References Visible links 1. http://www.earlymusiccolorado.org/emc_FF%202010.html 2. mailto:delphinconsult...@earthlink.net 3. mailto:suzanne.angev...@gmail.com Hidden links: 4. http://www.earlymusiccolorado.org/emc_FF%202010.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique
[1]http://www.earlymusiccolorado.org/emc_FF%202010.html maybe? On 1 November 2010 02:21, <[2]delphinconsult...@earthlink.net> wrote: So, who was the performer? Suzanne Angevine <[3]suzanne.angev...@gmail.com> wrote: >I believe that he was playing on gut strings. I believe the tuning was >octaves on the lowest 2 courses. I think the piece I had the thought on >was a sonata by Roncalli. But maybe I just expect too much perfection >in a live concert. hard to compare with recordings and you tubes. > >Suzanne > -- References Visible links 1. http://www.earlymusiccolorado.org/emc_FF%202010.html 2. mailto:delphinconsult...@earthlink.net 3. mailto:suzanne.angev...@gmail.com Hidden links: 4. http://www.earlymusiccolorado.org/emc_FF%202010.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique
Well - this isn't really the place to start yet another discussion about the stringing of the baroque guitar but if he was using octave stringing on the fifth course for Roncalli I think he was mistaken. I think I can guess who it was as he has recorded a lot of Roncalli's music. It also explains what you said about inappropriately loud or soft notes in the counterpoint. The idea is that you leave out one or other string of a course when using octave stringing and it just doesn't work in practice. It simply makes the music sound unbalenced. The best recording of Roncalli's music is one made by Jorge Oraison some time ago but I think it is no longer available. Monica - Original Message - From: "Suzanne Angevine" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Lutelist" Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 9:46 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique I believe that he was playing on gut strings. I believe the tuning was octaves on the lowest 2 courses. I think the piece I had the thought on was a sonata by Roncalli. But maybe I just expect too much perfection in a live concert. hard to compare with recordings and you tubes. Suzanne On 10/31/2010 10:33 AM, Monica Hall wrote: Well - without knowing who was playing or what they were playing it is difficult to comment. There certainly shouldn't be any squeaks or twangs if they using suitable strings - i.e. plain gut. The method of stringing used is also important. It is certainly harder to play contrapuntal pieces on the baroque guitar because of the limited compass and if octave stringing is being used. It is also difficult to balence strummed chords with the 2- and 3-part counterpoint. That said there are lots of attractive recordings of solo music - I am just writing a review of Gordon Ferries CD of music by Bartolotti - on the Delphian label - DCD 34066 and I would also recommend Francesco Corbetta/Robert de Visée, Une larme. Rosario Conte (baroque guitar). Carpe Diem, CD 16278. Cheers Monica - Original Message - From: "Suzanne Angevine" To: "Lute List" Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 4:20 PM Subject: [LUTE] OT: Baroque Guitar technique Last night I heard a very nice concert of mostly Baroque guitar. This is not an instrument I have any experience on, so I have a question. While the music was played with great style and expressiveness, I noticed some things that in a lute player I would not think that good. Things like squeeks, and twangs, and notes that in the contrapuntal texture were inappropriately loud or soft. Now I know on lute that it takes a fine degree of excellence, such as Paul O'Dette, to play without these things, and to bring out the essence of the music clearly. I also know from my own limited amateur abilities that it is much easier to hear what you *want* to hear, how you think the music should go, than it is to hear how you're actually playing. So my question is this: Is it technically harder for some reason to play contrapuntal style pieces on Baroque guitar than Ren lute? It seems the real strength of the Baroque guitar in modern usage is loud strumming as part of a continuo group, and at this it is clearly excellent. But I've not heard so many people play serious solo pieces on the instrument. Suzanne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique
It depends on the player MH --- On Sun, 31/10/10, Suzanne Angevine wrote: From: Suzanne Angevine Subject: [LUTE] OT: Baroque Guitar technique To: "Lute List" Date: Sunday, 31 October, 2010, 16:20 Last night I heard a very nice concert of mostly Baroque guitar. This is not an instrument I have any experience on, so I have a question. While the music was played with great style and expressiveness, I noticed some things that in a lute player I would not think that good. Things like squeeks, and twangs, and notes that in the contrapuntal texture were inappropriately loud or soft. Now I know on lute that it takes a fine degree of excellence, such as Paul O'Dette, to play without these things, and to bring out the essence of the music clearly. I also know from my own limited amateur abilities that it is much easier to hear what you *want* to hear, how you think the music should go, than it is to hear how you're actually playing. So my question is this: Is it technically harder for some reason to play contrapuntal style pieces on Baroque guitar than Ren lute? It seems the real strength of the Baroque guitar in modern usage is loud strumming as part of a continuo group, and at this it is clearly excellent. But I've not heard so many people play serious solo pieces on the instrument. Suzanne To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique
So, who was the performer? Suzanne Angevine wrote: >I believe that he was playing on gut strings. I believe the tuning was >octaves on the lowest 2 courses. I think the piece I had the thought on >was a sonata by Roncalli. But maybe I just expect too much perfection >in a live concert. hard to compare with recordings and you tubes. > >Suzanne > >On 10/31/2010 10:33 AM, Monica Hall wrote: >> Well - without knowing who was playing or what they were playing it is >> difficult to comment. There certainly shouldn't be any squeaks or twangs >> if they using suitable strings - i.e. plain gut. The method of stringing >> used is also important. It is certainly harder to play contrapuntal pieces >> on the baroque guitar because of the limited compass and if octave >> stringing is being used. It is also difficult to balence strummed chords >> with the 2- and 3-part counterpoint. >> >> That said there are lots of attractive recordings of solo music - I am just >> writing a review of Gordon Ferries CD of music by Bartolotti - on the >> Delphian label - DCD 34066 and I would also recommend Francesco >> Corbetta/Robert de Visée, Une larme. Rosario Conte (baroque guitar). >> Carpe Diem, CD 16278. >> >> Cheers >> >> Monica >> >> >> >> - Original Message - From: "Suzanne Angevine" >> >> To: "Lute List" >> Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 4:20 PM >> Subject: [LUTE] OT: Baroque Guitar technique >> >> >>> Last night I heard a very nice concert of mostly Baroque guitar. This is >>> not an instrument I have any experience on, so I have a question. While >>> the music was played with great style and expressiveness, I noticed some >>> things that in a lute player I would not think that good. Things like >>> squeeks, and twangs, and notes that in the contrapuntal texture were >>> inappropriately loud or soft. Now I know on lute that it takes a fine >>> degree of excellence, such as Paul O'Dette, to play without these things, >>> and to bring out the essence of the music clearly. I also know from my >>> own limited amateur abilities that it is much easier to hear what you >>> *want* to hear, how you think the music should go, than it is to hear how >>> you're actually playing. So my question is this: Is it technically harder >>> for some reason to play contrapuntal style pieces on Baroque guitar than >>> Ren lute? It seems the real strength of the Baroque guitar in modern >>> usage is loud strumming as part of a continuo group, and at this it is >>> clearly excellent. But I've not heard so many people play serious solo >>> pieces on the instrument. >>> >>> Suzanne >>> >>> >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> > >
[LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique
I believe that he was playing on gut strings. I believe the tuning was octaves on the lowest 2 courses. I think the piece I had the thought on was a sonata by Roncalli. But maybe I just expect too much perfection in a live concert. hard to compare with recordings and you tubes. Suzanne On 10/31/2010 10:33 AM, Monica Hall wrote: Well - without knowing who was playing or what they were playing it is difficult to comment. There certainly shouldn't be any squeaks or twangs if they using suitable strings - i.e. plain gut. The method of stringing used is also important. It is certainly harder to play contrapuntal pieces on the baroque guitar because of the limited compass and if octave stringing is being used. It is also difficult to balence strummed chords with the 2- and 3-part counterpoint. That said there are lots of attractive recordings of solo music - I am just writing a review of Gordon Ferries CD of music by Bartolotti - on the Delphian label - DCD 34066 and I would also recommend Francesco Corbetta/Robert de Visée, Une larme. Rosario Conte (baroque guitar). Carpe Diem, CD 16278. Cheers Monica - Original Message - From: "Suzanne Angevine" To: "Lute List" Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 4:20 PM Subject: [LUTE] OT: Baroque Guitar technique Last night I heard a very nice concert of mostly Baroque guitar. This is not an instrument I have any experience on, so I have a question. While the music was played with great style and expressiveness, I noticed some things that in a lute player I would not think that good. Things like squeeks, and twangs, and notes that in the contrapuntal texture were inappropriately loud or soft. Now I know on lute that it takes a fine degree of excellence, such as Paul O'Dette, to play without these things, and to bring out the essence of the music clearly. I also know from my own limited amateur abilities that it is much easier to hear what you *want* to hear, how you think the music should go, than it is to hear how you're actually playing. So my question is this: Is it technically harder for some reason to play contrapuntal style pieces on Baroque guitar than Ren lute? It seems the real strength of the Baroque guitar in modern usage is loud strumming as part of a continuo group, and at this it is clearly excellent. But I've not heard so many people play serious solo pieces on the instrument. Suzanne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique
Suzanne, Give a listen to Hopkinson Smith's recording of Gureau - FRANCISCO GUERAU: Poema Harmonico auvidis/astrée E 8722 ed HOPKINSON SMITH: baroque guitar At 11:20 AM 10/31/2010, Suzanne Angevine wrote: Last night I heard a very nice concert of mostly Baroque guitar. This is not an instrument I have any experience on, so I have a question. While the music was played with great style and expressiveness, I noticed some things that in a lute player I would not think that good. Things like squeeks, and twangs, and notes that in the contrapuntal texture were inappropriately loud or soft. Now I know on lute that it takes a fine degree of excellence, such as Paul O'Dette, to play without these things, and to bring out the essence of the music clearly. I also know from my own limited amateur abilities that it is much easier to hear what you *want* to hear, how you think the music should go, than it is to hear how you're actually playing. So my question is this: Is it technically harder for some reason to play contrapuntal style pieces on Baroque guitar than Ren lute? It seems the real strength of the Baroque guitar in modern usage is loud strumming as part of a continuo group, and at this it is clearly excellent. But I've not heard so many people play serious solo pieces on the instrument. Suzanne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute
[LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique
Well - without knowing who was playing or what they were playing it is difficult to comment. There certainly shouldn't be any squeaks or twangs if they using suitable strings - i.e. plain gut. The method of stringing used is also important. It is certainly harder to play contrapuntal pieces on the baroque guitar because of the limited compass and if octave stringing is being used. It is also difficult to balence strummed chords with the 2- and 3-part counterpoint. That said there are lots of attractive recordings of solo music - I am just writing a review of Gordon Ferries CD of music by Bartolotti - on the Delphian label - DCD 34066 and I would also recommend Francesco Corbetta/Robert de Visée, Une larme. Rosario Conte (baroque guitar). Carpe Diem, CD 16278. Cheers Monica - Original Message - From: "Suzanne Angevine" To: "Lute List" Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 4:20 PM Subject: [LUTE] OT: Baroque Guitar technique Last night I heard a very nice concert of mostly Baroque guitar. This is not an instrument I have any experience on, so I have a question. While the music was played with great style and expressiveness, I noticed some things that in a lute player I would not think that good. Things like squeeks, and twangs, and notes that in the contrapuntal texture were inappropriately loud or soft. Now I know on lute that it takes a fine degree of excellence, such as Paul O'Dette, to play without these things, and to bring out the essence of the music clearly. I also know from my own limited amateur abilities that it is much easier to hear what you *want* to hear, how you think the music should go, than it is to hear how you're actually playing. So my question is this: Is it technically harder for some reason to play contrapuntal style pieces on Baroque guitar than Ren lute? It seems the real strength of the Baroque guitar in modern usage is loud strumming as part of a continuo group, and at this it is clearly excellent. But I've not heard so many people play serious solo pieces on the instrument. Suzanne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
