[LUTE] Re: Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?)
From: Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm only pulling your leg, Stewart, obviously, but I do have a serious point to make regarding time keeping and respecting composers' wishes. Well, in that case we should level the same charges against Hoppy Smith, who both keeps country time and alters the performing material. RT Yes, we should. SAM Has anyone, ever? RT __ D O T E A S Y - Join the web hosting revolution! http://www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?)
Dear Roman I also know a lot of people who say the same thing here in Germany, but most of them have you on their spam list :) Keep smiling Mark -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: howard posner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Freitag, 1. Februar 2008 20:50 An: Lute Net Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?) On Feb 1, 2008, at 11:43 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote: Well, in that case we should level the same charges against Hoppy Smith, who both keeps country time and alters the performing material. RT Yes, we should. SAM Has anyone, ever? RT Oh! Oh! Over here! I have! I have! Right on this list! Do I get a prize? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?)
On Feb 1, 2008, at 11:43 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote: Well, in that case we should level the same charges against Hoppy Smith, who both keeps country time and alters the performing material. RT Yes, we should. SAM Has anyone, ever? RT Oh! Oh! Over here! I have! I have! Right on this list! Do I get a prize? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?)
And the Victor Meldrew Award for Music Criticism goes to Stewart McCoy! For those who have never heard of Victor, the archetypal grumpy old man: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Meldrew I'm only pulling your leg, Stewart, obviously, but I do have a serious point to make regarding time keeping and respecting composers' wishes. Those who go against a composer's wishes are operating well within period performance practice of ANY period, let alone the Renaissance and Baroque. Whether you think that is a good thing or not, whether you support fidelity to the written score or not, is entirely your own choice. Dowland and many, many other composers complained that performers were changing their scores - that's what performers do, and that's how composers respond, especially when they are trying to sell new editions...'The performer is king'. To be honest, I don't care much for brother Karamazov's performances either. He not only looks like Jim Carey on the 'forlorn' video, but phrases the music like Carey acts. But I will defend to the death his right to do it that way if he wants to. Dramatic gestures while performing were not invented in the 19th century, and fidelity to the written score has led to some of the most insipid 'early music' performances over the last 30 years. Thankfully we live in an age when there are more and more performers to choose from, should we wish to choose. Odd to think that more people have heard Karamazov perform Dowland than ever heard Dowland himself...Karamazov has a different audience, and he does a remarkable job at bringing new blood into the modern lute world. Whether we need that, of course, is another matter. Rob www.rmguitar.info -Original Message- From: Stewart McCoy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 30 January 2008 17:18 To: Lute Net Subject: [LUTE] Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?) Dear Rob, Thanks for directing us towards this Polish website. I don't understand Polish, but I listened to the background music - a piece by Dlugoraj. It's a lovely piece of music, exciting, with lots of drive, yet on this website it is played arhythmically - totally out of time. Why do so many lutenists play like that? Playing out of time is not necessary, not expressive, not skillful, and I find it thoroughly irritating. Do they ever consider what the rhythm signs above the tablature staves mean? What evidence is there that lutenists in the past ignored rhythm signs, and interpreted music in this dreamy, self-satisfying way? In attempting to find evidence, I came across the following at the end of Mary Burwell's Lute Tutor: In Conclusion the greatest Errour that is in playing upon the Lute is to play too fast, and not to keepe the tyme, and not to use the right fingers, without that play never soe well you are but a Bungler and fitt onely to amaze the ignorant Sorte of people and make a foole of yourselfe. Not wishing to rely on one source, I turned to Thomas Mace's _Musick's Monument_ (London, 1676). On page 124 he writes: ... you cannot fail to know my Mistress's Humour, provided you keep True Time, which you must be extreamly careful to do, in All Lessons: For Time is the One half of Musick. This comes where he is describing how to play a piece called my Mistress's Humour, which, you might think, he would want to be played with the utmost expression. He wants louds and softs, he wants ornaments, and he wants his piece to be played in time. He even says that you should play in time not just in this piece, but in all pieces (lessons). In the last few years, Julian Bream has given master classes at Lute Society meetings in London. He stressed two things: the need to play notes together, (i.e. not to roll and spread chords); and to play in time. He said, I may be old-fashioned, but I like music to be played in time. There are very many eminent players today, much admired, playing in concerts, on CDs, and on YouTube, who consistently play out of time. May they meet the ghost of Lully banging his stick. Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'LuteNet list' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 11:02 AM Subject: [LUTE] Polish, anyone? Nice picture of a 'mandora' on this site: http://www.innow.com.pl/muzykadawna/contrabellum.htm What's it all about? Rob To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?)
I like these quotes. ..but do you think the occasional (and tasteful) spreading of chords is a bad or non-HIP thing? Andrew On 30 Jan 2008, at 17:17, Stewart McCoy wrote: In the last few years, Julian Bream has given master classes at Lute Society meetings in London. He stressed two things: the need to play notes together, (i.e. not to roll and spread chords); and to play in time. He said, I may be old-fashioned, but I like music to be played in time. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?)
From: Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm only pulling your leg, Stewart, obviously, but I do have a serious point to make regarding time keeping and respecting composers' wishes. Well, in that case we should level the same charges against Hoppy Smith, who both keeps country time and alters the performing material. RT == http://polyhymnion.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?)
On Jan 31, 2008, at 4:39 AM, Andrew Gibbs wrote: ..but do you think the occasional (and tasteful) spreading of chords is a bad or non-HIP thing? No, not really. As long as it's not done to excess. Rolling too many chords in a piece tends to muddy up the counterpoint and blur the rhythm. But there are times when a chord has to be spread: a chord consisting of five or six notes obviously has to be rolled, and it's perfectly legitimate to play a chord with the right-hand thumb moving down over the bass note(s) and the index finger moving up backwards over the higher strings. In fact, there are markings in the tablature that we take as standard indications that call for separation of vertically-arranged notes. David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?)
Actually Bream is not old fashioned. This is rather modern attitude - a need for steady rhythm and sharp accents. In baroque period breaking chords was absolutely common practice and thought of as embellishment. G.Frescobaldi, Toccate 1615 : The openings of the toccatas are to be taken adagio and arpeggiando; it is the same with suspensions or discords, even in the middle of the work, one breaks them together, so as not to leave the instrument empty; which breaking is to be performed at the discretion of the performer As far as rhythm is concerned flexibility was the rule: 1/Th. Mace Musick's Monument Many Drudge, and take much Pains to Play their Lessons very Perfectly, which when they can do, you will perceive Little Life, or Spirit in them. They do not labour to find out the Humour, Life, or Spirit of their lessons. 2/Jean Rousseau, Traite de la Viole 1687 There are people who imagine that imparting the movement is to follow and keep time; but these are very different matters. 3/Joachim Quantz, Essay 1752 The performance should be easy and flexible. However difficult the passage, it must be played without stiffness or constraint. Obviously it involves the problem of borrowing or steeling time. However whatever we do, the question is not- should we do it- but rather -is it tasteful. And a Good taste is really precious for me. Jaroslaw -Original Message- From: Andrew Gibbs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 10:40 AM To: Stewart McCoy Cc: Lute Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?) I like these quotes. .but do you think the occasional (and tasteful) spreading of chords is a bad or non-HIP thing? Andrew On 30 Jan 2008, at 17:17, Stewart McCoy wrote: In the last few years, Julian Bream has given master classes at Lute Society meetings in London. He stressed two things: the need to play notes together, (i.e. not to roll and spread chords); and to play in time. He said, I may be old-fashioned, but I like music to be played in time. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?)
In fact, there are markings in the tablature that we take as standard indications that call for separation of vertically-arranged notes. Are these markings in historical tabulatures too? I do not remember i saw one. wolfgang -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: David Rastall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Donnerstag, 31. Januar 2008 16:09 An: Andrew Gibbs Cc: Stewart McCoy; Lute Net Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?) On Jan 31, 2008, at 4:39 AM, Andrew Gibbs wrote: ..but do you think the occasional (and tasteful) spreading of chords is a bad or non-HIP thing? No, not really. As long as it's not done to excess. Rolling too many chords in a piece tends to muddy up the counterpoint and blur the rhythm. But there are times when a chord has to be spread: a chord consisting of five or six notes obviously has to be rolled, and it's perfectly legitimate to play a chord with the right-hand thumb moving down over the bass note(s) and the index finger moving up backwards over the higher strings. In fact, there are markings in the tablature that we take as standard indications that call for separation of vertically-arranged notes. David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?)
On Jan 31, 2008, at 12:49 PM, wolfgang wiehe wrote: Are these markings in historical tabulatures too? I do not remember i saw one. I was thinking of the French ornamentation markings: offhand the only one I can think of without searching through the music is a slanted line separating vertical tab letters, meaning to play them separated. I'm sure others can reply to this in greater detail... ;-) Regards, David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?)
Are these markings in historical tabulatures too? I do not remember i saw one. I was thinking of the French ornamentation markings: offhand the only one I can think of without searching through the music is a slanted line separating vertical tab letters, meaning to play them separated. But that are separé signs! They don't mean rolling the chord. B. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?)
On Jan 31, 2008, at 2:15 PM, Bernd Haegemann wrote: But that are separe signs! They don't mean rolling the chord. If there are three notes written vertically I guess you could call that a chord. What about that squiggly line drawn beside a chord to indicate rolling it? Surely that must exist in historical sources, doesn't it? Maybe there aren't any signs that tell us to roll chords, I don't know. But there are plenty of chords in Baron, Weiss, etc., etc., even four-note chords that we definitely would play either arpeggiated, rolled, separated, whatever, because even though they may be written out vertically they are intended to be played anything but vertically. We know to do this; we know to roll chords in certain places. It's part of our education into playing Baroque music correctly. We're not supposed to play it straight; we're supposed to enlarge and elaborate on what;s written before us on the page. Perhaps for that reason there are so few direct indications of chord-rolling. Whether or not that applies to Dowland, I wouldn't dare say. DR [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?)
On 2008-01-31, at 20:15, Bernd Haegemann wrote: Are these markings in historical tabulatures too? I do not remember i saw one. I was thinking of the French ornamentation markings: offhand the only one I can think of without searching through the music is a slanted line separating vertical tab letters, meaning to play them separated. But that are separé signs! They don't mean rolling the chord. B. Sometime they are a real puzzle what they mean - thick texture, quick motion... Jurek _ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?)
Dear All: My favorite advice on the subject of playing in time comes from Pablo Casals: Fantasy as much as you like, but with order. I interpret that as putting as much expression into the piece as you see fit, but keep playing in time. Occasionally when playing to a metronome I experiment by playing as freely as possible while still playing in time. Do you see those tree? Liszt once asked a student. The wind toys with their leaves, it develops life among them; the trees remain the same. That is Chopin's rubato. (Casals and the Art of Interpretation, Berkeley, 1977, 1980, p. 85) On Frescobaldi's advice, are we sure it is to be applied broadly and not just to the openings of his toccatas? Cheers, Jim Stimson From: =?ISO646-US?Q?Jaros=3Faw_Lipski?= [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2008/01/31 Thu AM 11:47:49 CST To: 'Lute' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?) Actually Bream is not old fashioned. This is rather modern attitude - a need for steady rhythm and sharp accents. In baroque period breaking chords was absolutely common practice and thought of as embellishment. G.Frescobaldi, Toccate 1615 : The openings of the toccatas are to be taken adagio and arpeggiando; it is the same with suspensions or discords, even in the middle of the work, one breaks them together, so as not to leave the instrument empty; which breaking is to be performed at the discretion of the performer As far as rhythm is concerned flexibility was the rule: 1/Th. Mace Musick's Monument Many Drudge, and take much Pains to Play their Lessons very Perfectly, which when they can do, you will perceive Little Life, or Spirit in them. They do not labour to find out the Humour, Life, or Spirit of their lessons. 2/Jean Rousseau, Traite de la Viole 1687 There are people who imagine that imparting the movement is to follow and keep time; but these are very different matters. 3/Joachim Quantz, Essay 1752 The performance should be easy and flexible. However difficult the passage, it must be played without stiffness or constraint. Obviously it involves the problem of borrowing or steeling time. However whatever we do, the question is not- should we do it- but rather -is it tasteful. And a Good taste is really precious for me. Jaroslaw -Original Message- From: Andrew Gibbs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 10:40 AM To: Stewart McCoy Cc: Lute Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?) I like these quotes. .but do you think the occasional (and tasteful) spreading of chords is a bad or non-HIP thing? Andrew On 30 Jan 2008, at 17:17, Stewart McCoy wrote: In the last few years, Julian Bream has given master classes at Lute Society meetings in London. He stressed two things: the need to play notes together, (i.e. not to roll and spread chords); and to play in time. He said, I may be old-fashioned, but I like music to be played in time. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?)
On Frescobaldi's advice, are we sure it is to be applied broadly and not just to the openings of his toccatas? Breaking, or spreading chords was developed on instruments which don't have enough sustain by nature like harpsichord, lute etc for the sake of enriching the texture and increasing sonority. Actually it was such a common practice that it wasn't reflected in the notation. The variety of spreading was taken for granted and didn't need any mentioning. Try to imagine harpsichord music without spreading chords - absolutely awful! Arpeggio is a part of style providing that we start with bass on the beat. Some patterns of arpeggiation where written out by baroque composers under heading of ornaments (i.e. Jean-Henri D'Anglebert Pieces de Clavecin 1689). Breaking chords however doesn't need to mean loosing a pulse. This is just a result of a bad technique. Jaroslaw From: =?ISO646-US?Q?Jaros=3Faw_Lipski?= [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2008/01/31 Thu AM 11:47:49 CST To: 'Lute' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?) Actually Bream is not old fashioned. This is rather modern attitude - a need for steady rhythm and sharp accents. In baroque period breaking chords was absolutely common practice and thought of as embellishment. G.Frescobaldi, Toccate 1615 : The openings of the toccatas are to be taken adagio and arpeggiando; it is the same with suspensions or discords, even in the middle of the work, one breaks them together, so as not to leave the instrument empty; which breaking is to be performed at the discretion of the performer As far as rhythm is concerned flexibility was the rule: 1/Th. Mace Musick's Monument Many Drudge, and take much Pains to Play their Lessons very Perfectly, which when they can do, you will perceive Little Life, or Spirit in them. They do not labour to find out the Humour, Life, or Spirit of their lessons. 2/Jean Rousseau, Traite de la Viole 1687 There are people who imagine that imparting the movement is to follow and keep time; but these are very different matters. 3/Joachim Quantz, Essay 1752 The performance should be easy and flexible. However difficult the passage, it must be played without stiffness or constraint. Obviously it involves the problem of borrowing or steeling time. However whatever we do, the question is not- should we do it- but rather -is it tasteful. And a Good taste is really precious for me. Jaroslaw -Original Message- From: Andrew Gibbs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 10:40 AM To: Stewart McCoy Cc: Lute Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?) I like these quotes. .but do you think the occasional (and tasteful) spreading of chords is a bad or non-HIP thing? Andrew On 30 Jan 2008, at 17:17, Stewart McCoy wrote: In the last few years, Julian Bream has given master classes at Lute Society meetings in London. He stressed two things: the need to play notes together, (i.e. not to roll and spread chords); and to play in time. He said, I may be old-fashioned, but I like music to be played in time. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?)
Dear Stewart: I agree wholeheartedly. I recently bought a recording of a lutenist playing some of the most demanding repertory from an important published source of lute music. Donna and I listened to the recording in the car while on a road trip and we really could not believe our ears. I found a review when we returned home and, sure enough, Ian Harwood stressed the very same point in his review. Playing in time is important to me, having played dance music of all sorts for many years, but a regular pulse in music has a significant subliminal effect on the listener. I say if a piece was written in a dance form, play in time, and leave the expressive time changes for preludes and fantasias. Ron Andrico http://www.mignarda.com Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 17:17:41 + To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE] Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?) Dear Rob, Thanks for directing us towards this Polish website. I don't understand Polish, but I listened to the background music - a piece by Dlugoraj. It's a lovely piece of music, exciting, with lots of drive, yet on this website it is played arhythmically - totally out of time. Why do so many lutenists play like that? Playing out of time is not necessary, not expressive, not skillful, and I find it thoroughly irritating. Do they ever consider what the rhythm signs above the tablature staves mean? What evidence is there that lutenists in the past ignored rhythm signs, and interpreted music in this dreamy, self-satisfying way? In attempting to find evidence, I came across the following at the end of Mary Burwell's Lute Tutor: In Conclusion the greatest Errour that is in playing upon ! the Lute is to play too fast, and not to keepe the tyme, and not to use the right fingers, without that play never soe well you are but a Bungler and fitt onely to amaze the ignorant Sorte of people and make a foole of yourselfe. Not wishing to rely on one source, I turned to Thomas Mace's _Musick's Monument_ (London, 1676). On page 124 he writes: ... you cannot fail to know my Mistress's Humour, provided you keep True Time, which you must be extreamly careful to do, in All Lessons: For Time is the One half of Musick. This comes where he is describing how to play a piece called my Mistress's Humour, which, you might think, he would want to be played with the utmost expression. He wants louds and softs, he wants ornaments, and he wants his piece to be played in time. He even says that you should play in time not just in this piece, but in all pieces (lessons). In the last few years, Julian Bream has given master classes at Lute Society meetings i! n London. He stressed two things: the need to play notes toget! her, (i .e. not to roll and spread chords); and to play in time. He said, I may be old-fashioned, but I like music to be played in time. There are very many eminent players today, much admired, playing in concerts, on CDs, and on YouTube, who consistently play out of time. May they meet the ghost of Lully banging his stick. Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'LuteNet list' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 11:02 AM Subject: [LUTE] Polish, anyone? Nice picture of a 'mandora' on this site: http://www.innow.com.pl/muzykadawna/contrabellum.htm What's it all about? Rob To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html _ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 --
