[LUTE] Re: Question on Lute stringing
Nick, The exception that proves the rule. The basic answer is that 63cm is too long to comfortably tune to G at modern pitch A440. My flat-back is 63.5 cm VL, and I tune it to G. But there is no musical string that will hold that at that length. The closest is a nylon string, I've held G without breaking for a day or so, next comes nylgut, that snaps in about a half hour of being tuned to G at that length. But I did find a fishing line (nylon) that holds G at 63.5 cm VL. I'm stuck with the A=440 pitch as I play several other instruments (and sometimes in sequence), and have to match them to an ensemble I play with. Notice that I don't state the guage of the fishing line, or the nylon or nylgut I tried. The guage is irrelevant, in a sense, to the top string (chanterelle). Although a thinner guage requires less tension for the same pitch it is also thinner and therefore has less strength. It is an anomalie of materials that all strings of the same material have the same breaking pitch (given the VL) no matter the guage - and that the most usual strings used have competing characteristics that end up making them all have the approximate same breaking pitch (within about a tone and a half). Even steel falls into that structure. The real point is that a lute has a VL (vibrating length, nut to bridge) that is commensurate with its intended tuning. You can muddle that a bit by finding a particularly strong string for the chanterelle if the instrument is over long (as I've done with the fishing line for my 63.5 mensur). One doesn't increase overall tension significantly that way, it is safe for the instrument. For those who want to get technical, the string has two relevant characteristics. Its density and its tensile strength, where density implies the weight of the material and tensile strength its innate strength under a pull. (This is not entirely exact, but close enough). The breaking point is a combination of the thickness (cross section) and the innate material tensile strenght. (Steel wire rope will hold a stronger pull than hemp rope of the same diameter, but a thicker hemp rope can be stronger than a thnner wire rope - oh yes, I was a sailor). A thick rope will sound a lower pitch under the same tension as a thinner one. Two ropes of equal tension and thickness will have a different pitch if the density is different (the weight per unit length). Let's relate that to musical strings. It is a coincidence that steel wire, gut, nylon and nylgut all have charateristics that (in balance) come out almost the same. Bronze wire is quite different (and it is still used on some instruments). Lutenists aren't interested in steel strings (for good reason, as steel wants a higher tension to get the right sound as it has a higher density, and tensile strength. Gut, nylon and nylgut are so similar that they are only distinguishable (as to tuning pitch, not sound chararcteristics) by a tone to a tone and a half. (I've not worked with gut for breaking pitch yet so I'm not exact). To finish this I'll give the listing of VLs and chanterelle pitches with gut strings from Damiano's Renaissance Lute Method, my own work with nylon and nylgut matches his list (with the modifications of the differences). A 56-58cm (22-23 in) G 60-62cm (23.5-24.5 in) F# 62-64cm (24.5-25 in) F 65-66cm (25.5-26 in) E 67-68 cm (26-26.5 in) These are guidelines, not absolutes. But the maximum pitch for any string material witthout regard to the guage, given the VL, is an absolute. But let us remember that the absolute pitch of A has ranged from as low as 380 to our current standard of 440. But who cares? Nick has a point, you can capo - but if you do so on the lute you should think of it as changing base pitch and the nut, and adjusting your frets if youare in a mean temperament. It matters not if you are playing solo lute what the base pitch is.And if you are playing ensemble you'll have to work that out with the other instruments. For myself the flat back that is overly long is a temporary instrument, I'm building another from scratch. Best, Jon You could tune to G at A=415Hz - ie a semitone lower equivalent to F# modern pitch - fine for solos and singers and a lot of viol players, but not for playing with instruments at modern pitch, unless you use a capo on the first fret- no not very authentic, but very practical. You could tune it to F, fine for solos and singers, and tone apart duets with a lute in modern G, but you would need a capo on the first fret to play with viols at 415. I have a flamenco style capo made by my lute maker with a peg matched to the tuning pegs and it works fine. Be aware though that if you use equal temperament fretting, there is no problem, but if you use something else like 1.6, mean tone fretting, you have to move some of the frets a significant distance. I use a piece of paper with the frets marked on which I slip under the strings to the nut, and slide along the frets to match to
[LUTE] Re: Question on Lute stringing
I beg to differ with you guys: On Jan 20, 2006, at 4:16 AM, Jon Murphy wrote: The basic answer is that 63cm is too long to comfortably tune to G at modern pitch A440. ...there is no musical string that will hold that at that length. I string my 66 cm Venere 10-course in G, using a chanterelle of 0425 Pyramid nylon. I've never broken a chanterrelle yet. It works fine. It sounds just as good in G, with all the string gauges appropriately lighter than for F tuning, and the strings are just as responsive, easy to tune and play on in G. David Rastall To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Question on Lute stringing
My flat-back is 63.5 cm VL, and I tune it to G. But there is no musical string that will hold that at that length. Another beautiful theory destroyed by ugly facts. We have two 65 cm ten course lutes (almost identical) and they are often kept at G (A440) with either nylon or nylgut trebles. I can't remember the last time one broke - years probably. The tensile strength of the materials is adequate; if you are breaking strings that easily you should check the nut and bridge to make sure that there is nothing rough that is nicking the string. It is an anomalie of materials that all strings of the same material have the same breaking pitch (given the VL) no matter the guage I wouldn't call it an anomaly. The breaking point occurs at a particular (material dependent) stress. Stress is force per area - the tension divided by the cross sectional area of the string. (Think of it like this: the thicker the string, the more molecular bonds you have to pull apart to break it, so greater total force required. The only thing that is characteristic of the material is the force require to pull *one* bond apart. This is roughly what the breaking stress measures.) It just turns out that when you juggle the equation describing a string to express pitch as a function of stress instead of pitch as a function of tension, the diameter of the string drops out of the equation. It could be worse - on a lute only the first string is near the breaking pitch. On a harp (because the string length varies) you can have many strings near the breaking pitch. Bob -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Question on Lute stringing
Dear all, On Fri, 20 Jan 2006, David Rastall wrote: I string my 66 cm Venere 10-course in G, using a chanterelle of 0425 Pyramid nylon. I've never broken a chanterrelle yet. It works fine. It sounds just as good in G, with all the string gauges appropriately lighter than for F tuning, and the strings are just as responsive, easy to tune and play on in G. Same experience! In my archlute (Barber 1987) I use 0.45 Pyramid nylon chanterelle, works well in G (tuning a'=440Hz), nearly 4.5 Kg, feels good, sounds good. I think the matter (feeling, sounding) depends also much on the construction of the instrument, not only on those scientific parameters... All the best Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Question on Lute stringing
Hi Steve, on Monday 16 January 2006 22:43, you wrote: I'm new to the lute email list and need some help. Welcome to the List! It was strung with nylon for 1st, 2nd and 3rd courses, unison wound strings for the 4th and 5th courses, and nylon octaves + wound strings for the 7th and 8th courses. The 1st course is tuned to G. For my first question, is this the normal stringing arrangement (ie. use of wound strings and use of octaves)? Normal way of stringing the octaves in 6 course lutes of 16th century is to have octaves for 4th, 5th and 6th. When they started adding courses and when string technology advanced(?), the 4th got an unison couple, and perhaps also 5th. As far as I know, the 6th had always(?) the octave, as did the extra basses. (Well archlutes and theorboes had single basses) Using the octaves in an 8 course lute is highly a matter of taste, I think. Personally I either would use octaves for 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th. Or only 6th, 7th and 8th. So personally I like that 4th and 5th have the same system. But I guess opinions will vary. Besides being a different setup these strings have far too much tension for a 63 cm mensur, the wound 4th strings broke as did the 5th and 6th octave nylon string. Once I realized what was going on, I released the tension on these to avoid destroying the lute. I am guessing these strings are for 59 cm or less but that's what came when I ordered them. Perhaps some help for choosing the plain strings could come from my old String Calculator: http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/Calcs/wwwscalc.html One way of using the calculator could be: 1) Tune some string to a tension that feels and sounds good. 2) Check out what is the picth of the note. 3) Calculate what the tension of the string is. Let us say it is alpha. 4) Set the desired pitch. 5) Set alpha to te tension field. 6) Calculate the needed diameter. And there you are... :-) All the best Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Question on Lute stringing
Hi Steve, the diameter for the strings should be somewhere near the following example (gut or nylgut on 1st will probably break very soon): Hope that helps. Benjamin results for Lute (10 c.) a'=440Hz 63cm String Note Length Tension Gut Nylon Carbon KFNylgut 1stg'63 3,7 KG 0,382 0,427 0,325 0,334 0,402 2nd_a d'63 3,4 KG 0,488 0,546 0,416 0,427 0,508 2nd_b d'63 3,4 KG 0,488 0,546 0,416 0,427 0,508 3rd_a a 63 2,9 KG 0,602 0,673 0,513 0,527 0,622 3rd_b a 63 2,9 KG 0,602 0,673 0,513 0,527 0,622 4th_a f 63 2,9 KG 0,759 0,848 0,646 0,663 0,789 4th_b f 63 2,9 KG 0,759 0,848 0,646 0,663 0,789 5th_a c 63 2,9 KG 1,013 1,132 0,863 0,886 1,053 5th_b c 63 2,9 KG 1,013 1,132 0,863 0,886 1,053 6th_a g 63 2,7 KG 0,652 0,729 0,556 0,570 0,672 6th_b G 63 2,9 KG 1,352 1,511 1,152 1,182 1,392 7th_a f 63 2,7 KG 0,732 0,818 0,624 0,640 0,762 7th_b F 63 2,9 KG 1,517 1,696 1,293 1,327 1,567 8th_a e 63 2,7 KG 0,776 0,867 0,661 0,678 0,806 8th_b E 63 2,9 KG 1,608 1,797 1,370 1,406 1,658 9th_a d 63 2,7 KG 0,871 0,973 0,742 0,761 0,901 9th_b D 63 2,9 KG 1,804 2,017 1,537 1,578 1,854 10th_a c 63 2,7 KG 0,977 1,093 0,833 0,855 1,007 10th_b C 63 2,9 KG 2,025 2,265 1,726 1,771 2,075 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Question on Lute stringing
The basic answer is that 63cm is too long to comfortably tune to G at modern pitch A440. You could tune to G at A=415Hz - ie a semitone lower equivalent to F# modern pitch - fine for solos and singers and a lot of viol players, but not for playing with instruments at modern pitch, unless you use a capo on the first fret- no not very authentic, but very practical. You could tune it to F, fine for solos and singers, and tone apart duets with a lute in modern G, but you would need a capo on the first fret to play with viols at 415. I have a flamenco style capo made by my lute maker with a peg matched to the tuning pegs and it works fine. Be aware though that if you use equal temperament fretting, there is no problem, but if you use something else like 1.6, mean tone fretting, you have to move some of the frets a significant distance. I use a piece of paper with the frets marked on which I slip under the strings to the nut, and slide along the frets to match to get them about right. Nick -Original Message- From: Steve Walters [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 16 January 2006 20:43 To: List - Lute Subject: [LUTE] Question on Lute stringing Hi Lute Loverz, I'm new to the lute email list and need some help. I have an old Larry Brown 8-course Rennaisance lute with 63 cm mensur. The strings are ancient. I haven't played for a really long time due to an injury but I'm now trying to get back to playing. It was strung with nylon for 1st, 2nd and 3rd courses, unison wound strings for the 4th and 5th courses, and nylon octaves + wound strings for the 7th and 8th courses. The 1st course is tuned to G. For my first question, is this the normal stringing arrangement (ie. use of wound strings and use of octaves)? I ask because I ordered some new La Bella Lute strings from Just Strings. This set has 1st, 2nd and 3rd as nylon, 4th as unison wound strings, 5th, 6th 7th and 8th as nylon octave + wound fundamental. Besides being a different setup these strings have far too much tension for a 63 cm mensur, the wound 4th strings broke as did the 5th and 6th octave nylon string. Once I realized what was going on, I released the tension on these to avoid destroying the lute. I am guessing these strings are for 59 cm or less but that's what came when I ordered them. I did try it for a bit and found the 5th and 6th courses sounded very strange to my ear being in octaves. Anyway, I am open to any specific suggestions as to what strings to use on this lute and where I can purchase them. Lastly, I am curious if anyone else on this list lives in New Jersey, I'd like to meet some other lutenists and get some tips/help first hand. Thanks! Steve... Retirement: The job I was born for... To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Question on Lute stringing
Thanks to everyone for their responses! I've taken your advice and emailed Catline Henricksen to arrange for a few sets of strings. The La Bella strings are now safely loose on my lute and I'll wait until getting new ones from Chris to resume playing it. I would also like to remark that it was very gratifying to quickly receive so many thoughtful and helpful responses to my note. I belong to other email lists where responses are often uncivil especially when beginners are asking for help. I'm sure you must have dissonant moments but it was a very nice 1st experience with the Lute email list. So I'd like to thank all of you not only for the advice but also for the warm welcome! Steve... To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Question on Lute stringing
Dear Steve: The stringing on your Larry Brown lute appears to be normal and typical. However, the string length is a bit longer than the usual 59 to 60 cm. That may be a partial explanation for the string breakage. In my opinion your best course would be to purchase strings from Chris Henrickson (I think he's in Somerville, MA), Dan Larson (Duluth, MN) or other string specialist. This will ensure that you get the right strings. You might also get some spare top strings. Cheers and good luck, Jim Steve Walters [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: List - Lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu t.net cc: Subject: [LUTE] Question on Lute stringing 01/16/2006 03:43 PM Hi Lute Loverz, I'm new to the lute email list and need some help. I have an old Larry Brown 8-course Rennaisance lute with 63 cm mensur. The strings are ancient. I haven't played for a really long time due to an injury but I'm now trying to get back to playing. It was strung with nylon for 1st, 2nd and 3rd courses, unison wound strings for the 4th and 5th courses, and nylon octaves + wound strings for the 7th and 8th courses. The 1st course is tuned to G. For my first question, is this the normal stringing arrangement (ie. use of wound strings and use of octaves)? I ask because I ordered some new La Bella Lute strings from Just Strings. This set has 1st, 2nd and 3rd as nylon, 4th as unison wound strings, 5th, 6th 7th and 8th as nylon octave + wound fundamental. Besides being a different setup these strings have far too much tension for a 63 cm mensur, the wound 4th strings broke as did the 5th and 6th octave nylon string. Once I realized what was going on, I released the tension on these to avoid destroying the lute. I am guessing these strings are for 59 cm or less but that's what came when I ordered them. I did try it for a bit and found the 5th and 6th courses sounded very strange to my ear being in octaves. Anyway, I am open to any specific suggestions as to what strings to use on this lute and where I can purchase them. Lastly, I am curious if anyone else on this list lives in New Jersey, I'd like to meet some other lutenists and get some tips/help first hand. Thanks! Steve... Retirement: The job I was born for... To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Question on Lute stringing
I agree. However LaBella does have someone that works for them that will help you get the strings for your Lute. LaBella are the strings I use, I am cheap and broke most of the time I cannot afford the fancy gimped, gut, or several top end strings popular today. A number of years ago I ordered a set of strings from LaBella and had the same experinece you described. That's how I found out about there string selection service. I purchased twelve sets at that time so it has been a few years. But you might want to check it out on the Internet. I do not have the address right now but if it is still there you should be able to find it. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: James A Stimson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Steve Walters [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: List - Lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 8:54 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Question on Lute stringing Dear Steve: The stringing on your Larry Brown lute appears to be normal and typical. However, the string length is a bit longer than the usual 59 to 60 cm. That may be a partial explanation for the string breakage. In my opinion your best course would be to purchase strings from Chris Henrickson (I think he's in Somerville, MA), Dan Larson (Duluth, MN) or other string specialist. This will ensure that you get the right strings. You might also get some spare top strings. Cheers and good luck, Jim Steve Walters [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: List - Lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu t.net cc: Subject: [LUTE] Question on Lute stringing 01/16/2006 03:43 PM Hi Lute Loverz, I'm new to the lute email list and need some help. I have an old Larry Brown 8-course Rennaisance lute with 63 cm mensur. The strings are ancient. I haven't played for a really long time due to an injury but I'm now trying to get back to playing. It was strung with nylon for 1st, 2nd and 3rd courses, unison wound strings for the 4th and 5th courses, and nylon octaves + wound strings for the 7th and 8th courses. The 1st course is tuned to G. For my first question, is this the normal stringing arrangement (ie. use of wound strings and use of octaves)? I ask because I ordered some new La Bella Lute strings from Just Strings. This set has 1st, 2nd and 3rd as nylon, 4th as unison wound strings, 5th, 6th 7th and 8th as nylon octave + wound fundamental. Besides being a different setup these strings have far too much tension for a 63 cm mensur, the wound 4th strings broke as did the 5th and 6th octave nylon string. Once I realized what was going on, I released the tension on these to avoid destroying the lute. I am guessing these strings are for 59 cm or less but that's what came when I ordered them. I did try it for a bit and found the 5th and 6th courses sounded very strange to my ear being in octaves. Anyway, I am open to any specific suggestions as to what strings to use on this lute and where I can purchase them. Lastly, I am curious if anyone else on this list lives in New Jersey, I'd like to meet some other lutenists and get some tips/help first hand. Thanks! Steve... Retirement: The job I was born for... To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
