[LUTE] Re: The article by Annette Otterstedt about David Dolata's book about tuning
Well put Stewart ! I like Dolata's book too and I think he is quite fair with all sorts of possible temperaments and choices for well informed performers. I was also surprised by the tone of this review and it doesn’t change a bit my first appreciation of Dolata’s book, probably the best on the subject since Lindley’s book quite a few years ago! Best wishes, hope to see you in Utrecht, Stewart ;-)!!! Jean-Marie > Le 15 mai 2018 à 12:09, Stewart McCoy a écrit : > > Having read David Dolata's book, and reviewed it for the Viola da Gamba > Society, I was disappointed to read Annette Otterstedt's unkind review. > Dolata produces a lot of evidence to show that unequal temperaments > were used in the past for fretted instruments. For example, vihuelists > advised moving the fourth fret for pieces which required a flat note on > the second course â g' flat for an instrument in g' â instead of f'# > required for other pieces. Otterstedt ignores this, and in her first > paragraph dismisses the whole idea of frets being moved, because she > does not know of a surviving instrument with marks on the neck. I > wonder how many surviving vihuelas she has examined. > > Dolata argues the case for unequal fretting on viols, at least when > they are played with an organ, because organs were not tuned in equal > temperament. Otterstedt seems to be saying that viols would have been > tuned in equal temperament, and so would have been deliberately out of > tune with the organ. I don't see the sense in this. According to Thomas > Mace (Musick's Monument, (1676), p. 242), one of the reasons for having > an organ was to help keep the viols in tune: "Because the Organ stands > us in stead of a Holding, Uniting-Constant-Friend; and is as a > Touch-stone, to try the certainty of All Things; especially the > Well-keeping the Instruments in Tune, &c." Of course there will be > problems with some enharmonic notes, because the position of one fret > affects all six strings, but I find it hard to imagine a viol player > ignoring Mace's advice, ignoring the organ, and doggedly sticking to > his own tuning. > > I like Dolata's book, and although I could find fault with some things > â for example, I find his chatty style of writing a distraction, and I > prefer to talk about "unequal temperament" rather than meantone > temperament" for fretted instruments â there is a wealth of information > for us to examine, and much food for thought. Dolata's aim is to > encourage today's players to think about temperament and to use unequal > fretting systems themselves, and he deserves credit for that. I tried > accessing Otterstedt's review on line again this morning, but without > success. Apparently it is now "forbidden". > > Stewart McCoy > > > -- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The article by Annette Otterstedt about David Dolata's book about tuning
Hi Stewart - Yes, the copy of the article on my web page is now forbidden. And you *don’t* want to get involved with the three-headed dog! Wayne I tried > accessing Otterstedt's review on line again this morning, but without > success. Apparently it is now "forbidden". > > Stewart McCoy To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The article by Annette Otterstedt about David Dolata's book about tuning
On 15.05.2018 14:56, Daniel Shoskes wrote: I love this analytic approach! Not seeing the musical examples in context is it possible that a non-pure octave would be used to enhance the distinction of polyphonic lines? My mind is now reeling with the possible hypotheses that could be tested on large Fronimo databases. Not exactly “big data” but very elegant nonetheless. I have serious doubts this can be done on Fronimo files. The format is probably horribly complicated. Rainer There is a wonderful tool to analyse chess games. You may ask questions like "find the gane with the longest sequence of cinsectutive cjecks", "find all end games with two bishops against a single knight", ... But these are normally stored in text files with a relatively (more or less) simple text format. What do you think, Francesco? Is it possible to convert Fronimo files to tab files in batch? Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The article by Annette Otterstedt about David Dolata's book about tuning
I love this analytic approach! Not seeing the musical examples in context is it possible that a non-pure octave would be used to enhance the distinction of polyphonic lines? My mind is now reeling with the possible hypotheses that could be tested on large Fronimo databases. Not exactly “big data” but very elegant nonetheless. Danny > On May 15, 2018, at 8:22 AM, Rainer wrote: > > Another argument, I have not seen here, yet. > > In unequal temperament all octaves are pure. > > In 1/6 meantone the octave 2e, 4b is not pure at all. > > There is a piece by de Rippe where he uses 2e and 5g instead. > > > I have run a regular expression search (the computer gurus will know) on all > my tab files (to scan Fronimo files is impossible, the format is binary): > > the octave 2d, 4a occurs 805 times. > > The octave2e, 4b occurs 0 [yes zero] times. > > I think this is a rather convincing argument, is it not? > > Rainer > > The regular expression is not every sophisticated since it does not properly > handle ornaments. But 805:0 is even better than Germany's 7:1 :) > > On 15.05.2018 12:09, Stewart McCoy wrote: >>Having read David Dolata's book, and reviewed it for the Viola da Gamba >>Society, I was disappointed to read Annette Otterstedt's unkind review. >>Dolata produces a lot of evidence to show that unequal temperaments >>were used in the past for fretted instruments. For example, vihuelists >>advised moving the fourth fret for pieces which required a flat note on >>the second course â g' flat for an instrument in g' â instead of f'# >>required for other pieces. Otterstedt ignores this, and in her first >>paragraph dismisses the whole idea of frets being moved, because she >>does not know of a surviving instrument with marks on the neck. I >>wonder how many surviving vihuelas she has examined. >>Dolata argues the case for unequal fretting on viols, at least when >>they are played with an organ, because organs were not tuned in equal >>temperament. Otterstedt seems to be saying that viols would have been >>tuned in equal temperament, and so would have been deliberately out of >>tune with the organ. I don't see the sense in this. According to Thomas >>Mace (Musick's Monument, (1676), p. 242), one of the reasons for having >>an organ was to help keep the viols in tune: "Because the Organ stands >>us in stead of a Holding, Uniting-Constant-Friend; and is as a >>Touch-stone, to try the certainty of All Things; especially the >>Well-keeping the Instruments in Tune, &c." Of course there will be >>problems with some enharmonic notes, because the position of one fret >>affects all six strings, but I find it hard to imagine a viol player >>ignoring Mace's advice, ignoring the organ, and doggedly sticking to >>his own tuning. >>I like Dolata's book, and although I could find fault with some things >>â for example, I find his chatty style of writing a distraction, and I >>prefer to talk about "unequal temperament" rather than meantone >>temperament" for fretted instruments â there is a wealth of information >>for us to examine, and much food for thought. Dolata's aim is to >>encourage today's players to think about temperament and to use unequal >>fretting systems themselves, and he deserves credit for that. I tried >>accessing Otterstedt's review on line again this morning, but without >>success. Apparently it is now "forbidden". >>Stewart McCoy >>-- >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >
[LUTE] Re: The article by Annette Otterstedt about David Dolata's book about tuning
I agree with your comments Stewart. I’ve read the complete book and the review (which maybe puts me in the minority of people commenting) and was planning to re-read the book on a long flight later this week to refresh my memory. While the book isn’t without faults, it does present sources and arguments for and against before coming to opinions. The review resorts to straw man and black-white arguments to make some of it’s points. I think it IS fair to conclude that 1) Some lutenists playing during the Renaissance used non-equal temperaments, especially in ensemble playing 2) Some did not 3) They argued about it, therefore arguing about it on this list is very HIP! 4) Most modern audience members probably can’t tell the difference (not sure that I can with my eyes closed, especially as the strings starts to go out of tune as a concert progresses). I think it would be a very interesting experiment to take a lute at the end of a recital and measure the cent deflections of every string and see whether the standard deviation of pitches is wider than some unequal temperament systems. 5) For modern solo players, choose the tuning system that produces the sounds that connect you to the music and the piece, whether that means perfect 3rds, extra dissonances or flying frets. Musicality trumps tuning system. 6) If you make your living playing in ensemble, you need to learn to put your continuo instrument into the temperament requested by the conductor. Both Dolata’s book and Wead’s thesis have practical information on how to do that. Danny > On May 15, 2018, at 6:09 AM, Stewart McCoy wrote: > > Having read David Dolata's book, and reviewed it for the Viola da Gamba > Society, I was disappointed to read Annette Otterstedt's unkind review. > Dolata produces a lot of evidence to show that unequal temperaments > were used in the past for fretted instruments. For example, vihuelists > advised moving the fourth fret for pieces which required a flat note on > the second course â g' flat for an instrument in g' â instead of f'# > required for other pieces. Otterstedt ignores this, and in her first > paragraph dismisses the whole idea of frets being moved, because she > does not know of a surviving instrument with marks on the neck. I > wonder how many surviving vihuelas she has examined. > > Dolata argues the case for unequal fretting on viols, at least when > they are played with an organ, because organs were not tuned in equal > temperament. Otterstedt seems to be saying that viols would have been > tuned in equal temperament, and so would have been deliberately out of > tune with the organ. I don't see the sense in this. According to Thomas > Mace (Musick's Monument, (1676), p. 242), one of the reasons for having > an organ was to help keep the viols in tune: "Because the Organ stands > us in stead of a Holding, Uniting-Constant-Friend; and is as a > Touch-stone, to try the certainty of All Things; especially the > Well-keeping the Instruments in Tune, &c." Of course there will be > problems with some enharmonic notes, because the position of one fret > affects all six strings, but I find it hard to imagine a viol player > ignoring Mace's advice, ignoring the organ, and doggedly sticking to > his own tuning. > > I like Dolata's book, and although I could find fault with some things > â for example, I find his chatty style of writing a distraction, and I > prefer to talk about "unequal temperament" rather than meantone > temperament" for fretted instruments â there is a wealth of information > for us to examine, and much food for thought. Dolata's aim is to > encourage today's players to think about temperament and to use unequal > fretting systems themselves, and he deserves credit for that. I tried > accessing Otterstedt's review on line again this morning, but without > success. Apparently it is now "forbidden". > > Stewart McCoy > > > -- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The article by Annette Otterstedt about David Dolata's book about tuning
Another argument, I have not seen here, yet. In unequal temperament all octaves are pure. In 1/6 meantone the octave 2e, 4b is not pure at all. There is a piece by de Rippe where he uses 2e and 5g instead. I have run a regular expression search (the computer gurus will know) on all my tab files (to scan Fronimo files is impossible, the format is binary): the octave 2d, 4a occurs 805 times. The octave2e, 4b occurs 0 [yes zero] times. I think this is a rather convincing argument, is it not? Rainer The regular expression is not every sophisticated since it does not properly handle ornaments. But 805:0 is even better than Germany's 7:1 :) On 15.05.2018 12:09, Stewart McCoy wrote: Having read David Dolata's book, and reviewed it for the Viola da Gamba Society, I was disappointed to read Annette Otterstedt's unkind review. Dolata produces a lot of evidence to show that unequal temperaments were used in the past for fretted instruments. For example, vihuelists advised moving the fourth fret for pieces which required a flat note on the second course â g' flat for an instrument in g' â instead of f'# required for other pieces. Otterstedt ignores this, and in her first paragraph dismisses the whole idea of frets being moved, because she does not know of a surviving instrument with marks on the neck. I wonder how many surviving vihuelas she has examined. Dolata argues the case for unequal fretting on viols, at least when they are played with an organ, because organs were not tuned in equal temperament. Otterstedt seems to be saying that viols would have been tuned in equal temperament, and so would have been deliberately out of tune with the organ. I don't see the sense in this. According to Thomas Mace (Musick's Monument, (1676), p. 242), one of the reasons for having an organ was to help keep the viols in tune: "Because the Organ stands us in stead of a Holding, Uniting-Constant-Friend; and is as a Touch-stone, to try the certainty of All Things; especially the Well-keeping the Instruments in Tune, &c." Of course there will be problems with some enharmonic notes, because the position of one fret affects all six strings, but I find it hard to imagine a viol player ignoring Mace's advice, ignoring the organ, and doggedly sticking to his own tuning. I like Dolata's book, and although I could find fault with some things â for example, I find his chatty style of writing a distraction, and I prefer to talk about "unequal temperament" rather than meantone temperament" for fretted instruments â there is a wealth of information for us to examine, and much food for thought. Dolata's aim is to encourage today's players to think about temperament and to use unequal fretting systems themselves, and he deserves credit for that. I tried accessing Otterstedt's review on line again this morning, but without success. Apparently it is now "forbidden". Stewart McCoy -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The article by Annette Otterstedt about David Dolata's book about tuning
Am Sonntag, 13. Mai 2018 20:15 CEST, Ron Andrico schrieb: >Apart from acceptable use such as short quotes that attribute the >author and the source, the conventional approach is to ask the author's >permission. Most authors are pleased for the citations and to >cooperate in making their work available, particularly to such a >distinguished and civil group. Unless the publishing company (Oxford Univeristy Press) doesn't allow this - and I doubt that they would be happy about the widespread circulation of recently published material. Even content aggregators like jstor et al. aren't allowed to publish recent content. >You may be right, but I can always claim that my computer was hacked. > Wayne Hmm, but you distribute material downloaded by (according to the watermark) a certain 'John Coster'. So he violated OUP's terms of use. Cheers, RalfD To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The article by Annette Otterstedt about David Dolata's book about tuning
The article (3 pages) is sold for $40. Ridiculous... Rainer On 13.05.2018 20:15, Ron Andrico wrote: Apart from acceptable use such as short quotes that attribute the author and the source, the conventional approach is to ask the author's permission. Most authors are pleased for the citations and to cooperate in making their work available, particularly to such a distinguished and civil group. RA To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
