[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Peter Martin]

   To hear what this keyboard-centric mucking about with temperament
   actually means in practice, I strongly recommend Richard Egarr's
   excellent harpsichord recital at Weill Hall on  [1]youtu.be/JIvbEWKpGwk

   He plays the first half (Byrd and Sweelinck) in 1/4-comma meantone and
   the second half (Blow and Purcell) in an unspecified, less extreme
   temperament.   Before each half, he gives a demonstration of the
   effects of each temperament, which are startlingly different (at 02:30
   and 48:45).   Worth a listen.
   All best
   Peter
   On 8 March 2018 at 10:31, Matthew Daillie <[2]dail...@club-internet.fr>
   wrote:

 Hi Leonard,
 This seems to be a very convoluted and hit and miss method to me.
 Maybe it would be good to get back to basics (which is what you are
 doing when checking the major thirds between the fifth and third
 courses of your lute).
 With 1/4 comma meantone you are looking to have 8 pure, beat-less
 major thirds (C-E, for example). These are narrower than equal
 temperament thirds which can sound pretty awful once you get used to
 the purity of major thirds. It is not always easy to hear the beats
 on a lute (far less evident than with the metal strings and clear
 harmonics of a harpsichord, for example) so it is generally advised
 to set the frets based on calculations for your string length. You
 can use a calculator such as the one provided online by Lauri
 Niskanen which will give you the distances between the nut and the
 various frets. All you need to do is enter the string length of your
 lute and place your frets accordingly. Here's the link:
 [3]https://www.niskanenlutes.com/index.php?p=frets
 Once you've done that you will need to see if you require extra
 frets (tastini) for notes that would not be in tune without them
 (such as the first position F# on the 4th course of a lute in g').
 Mean tone distinguishes between enharmonic notes, (so D# will be
 lower than Eb flat, for example) and you can't have both at the same
 time on the lute and you will need to adjust the position of certain
 frets according to the piece you are playing. Once your frets are
 set, I would suggest tuning an a' from a tuning fork or electronic
 tuner and then tuning the other courses by ear from that by using
 octaves. If you do not feel comfortable tuning by ear then use the
 setting on your tuner to get 1/4 comma mean-tone with an Eb as you
 will be playing music in flat keys. The final adjustments really do
 need to be made by ear, however good your tuner and you can check
 the major thirds of the piece you are playing.
 Hope this helps.
 Best,
 Matthew
 can use a pr

   On 08/03/2018 02:17, Leonard Williams wrote:

 Here's a tuning method I've been experimenting with, and I'm
 wondering about others' related experiences.   My 8 course is
 nominally in g (i.e., g treble), 1/4 comma meantone. But - since
 most of the music I play is in flat keys, I set my Peterson tuner
 for an instrument in F instead of C.   Thus when I tune the g, the
 readout is d, etc.   I've also found that using a chord consisting
 of fret d on 3rd, e on 4th, and f on fifth is helpful in refining
 the tuning and those frets.
 Any similar experiences?
 Best to all,
 Leonard Williams

   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. https://t.co/aBdt32XLxi
   2. mailto:dail...@club-internet.fr
   3. https://www.niskanenlutes.com/index.php?p=frets
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Stephen Fryer]

I remember being rather excited when I saw in an old painting of a lute 
that at least one of the frets had a sliver of wood inserted to tighten 
it.  Unfortunately I have lost the reference.


Stephen Fryer


On 2018-03-09 4:55 AM, Tristan von Neumann wrote:
How would you tighten the frets? I tried burning off the knot a bit 
more so it pulls together. Does work sometimes.

I could put pieces of matches under the fret, but that's cheating :)

Am 09.03.2018 um 05:09 schrieb spiffys84121:
It is quite easy to tighten frets when they become loose. It baffles 
me when I see lutes with shims on several frets. Changing your frets 
when they are loose is like changing your shoe laces every time they 
become loose. Just tighten those frets!

Sterling



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

 Original message 
From: Tristan von Neumann 
Date: 3/8/18 6:28 PM (GMT-07:00)
To: lutelist Net 
Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

My frets move even if I don't want them to move... at least after some
time. Maybe my knots are not good enough. But once you move them, they
become loose.
Actually I find some differences in tone very appealing.
Even if some pieces sound dark or harsh, I try to think of it as color
and not a flaw.
I don't know how this was in different climate zones of Europe, but is
there a region where Lutes are always in tune, considering the "Little
Ice Age" of course, not today's reemerging from it.
But with gut and mostly difficult weather conditions back then, I might
want to think that we're already in Lute Heaven with being able to
choose our room temperature and even avoid gut strings if you're ok with
it...
I sometimes wonder who Archicembali were kept in tune...

Am 08.03.2018 um 18:39 schrieb Daniel Shoskes:
 > I don’t have OUP access so can’t read the entire review, but would 
be rather surprised to have a criticism boil down to Dolata's thesis 
was “the frets can move so they must have moved”. I read the book a 
couple of years ago but glancing through it again there is a balanced 
and measured weighing of evidence including iconography, spacing of 
historical fixed fret instruments and multiple vihuela, viol and lute 
sources including Galilei. If someone can share the entire review 
with me I would be happy to re-evalutate and reconsider. For me 
personally, spending most of my plucking in the d minor tuning world, 
equal temperament is the norm.

 >
 > Returning to the original question of the original poster, the 
book contains practical advice for tuning in meantone temperaments 
using the ear and/or a commercial electronic tuner and deals with 
pros and cons for solo and ensemble players.

 >
 > Danny
 >
 >> On Mar 8, 2018, at 10:57 AM, Andreas Schlegel 
 wrote:

 >>
 >> There’s a different view here:
 >> A. Otterstedt, Fretting about tuning (review of D. Dolata, 
Meantone temperaments on lutes and viols, Bloomington und Indiana, 
2016), in: Early Music, cax101, https://doi.org/10.1093/em/cax101

 >>
 >> Andreas
 >>
 >>> Am 08.03.2018 um 16:09 schrieb Daniel Shoskes 
:

 >>>
 >>> For an excellent book by a musicologist and busy lute performer 
(solo and continuo), I highly recommend “Meantone Temperaments on 
Lutes and Viols” by David Dolata. Indiana University Press 2016. 
History covered in part 1, theory in part 2 and practicalities in 
part 3 (by ear and using a tuning device).

 >>>
 >>> goo.gl/9Aewv2 <http://goo.gl/9Aewv2>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>> On Mar 8, 2018, at 9:54 AM, Matthew Daillie 
 wrote:

 >>>>
 >>>> I totally agree with Martin Shepherd (indeed two of our 
messages said the same thing) but what is the valid point Ron was 
making ??

 >>>>
 >>>> Leonard's original post was a question about his method for 
tuning 1/4 comma meantone, not whether it was appropriate or not to 
use it on lutes, a can of worms I certainly did not wish to open 
(personally I use both equal and 1/5 comma mean-tone on my lutes).

 >>>>
 >>>> Best,
 >>>> Matthew
 >>>>
 >>>>
 >>>> On 08/03/2018 15:31, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
 >>>>>   Ron and Martin have valid points - in particular the 
advocacy of a true
 >>>>>   meantone is something of a chimera on the lute. Indeed, this 
matter of
 >>>>>   non-equal temperament on lutes has been considered on this 
forum a
 >>>>>   number of times before - just search the archives.  For 
example this

 >>>>>   some seven years ago (and quite a few much more recently):
 >>>>> * [1]Martyn Hodgson 
 >>>>
 >>>>
 >>>>
 >>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
 >>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 >>>
 >>>
 >>> --
 >>
 >> Andreas Schlegel
 >> Eckstr. 6
 >> CH-5737 Menziken
 >> Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
 >> Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
 >> lute.cor...@sunrise.ch
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> --
 >
 >
 >
 >

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[spiffys84121]

   I think I need to make a video about tightening frets. Possibly this
   weekend.

   Sterling

   Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

    Original message 
   From: Christopher Wilke 
   Date: 3/9/18 6:20 AM (GMT-07:00)
   To: Lutelist Net 
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

  I'm also curious how to tighten an old fret once the knot has been
  burned. Sterling, can you enlighten us?
  I've sometimes very lightly run a soldering iron along the length of
  the back of the fret and, if there is space, at the bend at the
   knot.
  It seems to help if the fret is not very loose, but one has to be
  really careful not to press too hard or you can cause a weak spot or
  even breakage. It only works on frets that aren't too wobbly to
   begin
  with. If too loose, out come the shims...
  Chris
  [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
  On Friday, March 9, 2018, 7:58 AM, Tristan von Neumann
   wrote:
  How would you tighten the frets? I tried burning off the knot a bit
  more
  so it pulls together. Does work sometimes.
  I could put pieces of matches under the fret, but that's cheating :)
  Am 09.03.2018 um 05:09 schrieb spiffys84121:
  > It is quite easy to tighten frets when they become loose. It
   baffles
  me
  > when I see lutes with shims on several frets. Changing your frets
  when
  > they are loose is like changing your shoe laces every time they
  become
  > loose. Just tighten those frets!
  > Sterling
  >
  >
  >
  > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
  >
  >  Original message 
  > From: Tristan von Neumann <[2]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
  > Date: 3/8/18 6:28 PM (GMT-07:00)
  > To: lutelist Net <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
  > Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech
  >
  > My frets move even if I don't want them to move... at least after
  some
  > time. Maybe my knots are not good enough. But once you move them,
  they
  > become loose.
  > Actually I find some differences in tone very appealing.
  > Even if some pieces sound dark or harsh, I try to think of it as
  color
  > and not a flaw.
  > I don't know how this was in different climate zones of Europe,
   but
  is
  > there a region where Lutes are always in tune, considering the
  "Little
  > Ice Age" of course, not today's reemerging from it.
  > But with gut and mostly difficult weather conditions back then, I
  might
  > want to think that we're already in Lute Heaven with being able to
  > choose our room temperature and even avoid gut strings if you're
   ok
  with
  > it...
  > I sometimes wonder who Archicembali were kept in tune...
  >
  > Am 08.03.2018 um 18:39 schrieb Daniel Shoskes:
  >  > I don't have OUP access so can't read the entire review, but
   would
  be
  > rather surprised to have a criticism boil down to Dolata's thesis
   was
  > "the frets can move so they must have moved". I read the book a
  couple
  > of years ago but glancing through it again there is a balanced and
  > measured weighing of evidence including iconography, spacing of
  > historical fixed fret instruments and multiple vihuela, viol and
   lute
  > sources including Galilei. If someone can share the entire review
  with
  > me I would be happy to re-evalutate and reconsider. For me
  personally,
  > spending most of my plucking in the d minor tuning world, equal
  > temperament is the norm.
  >  >
  >  > Returning to the original question of the original poster, the
  book
  > contains practical advice for tuning in meantone temperaments
   using
  the
  > ear and/or a commercial electronic tuner and deals with pros and
   cons
  > for solo and ensemble players.
  >  >
  >  > Danny
  >  >
  >  >> On Mar 8, 2018, at 10:57 AM, Andreas Schlegel
  > <[4]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch> wrote:
  >  >>
  >  >> There's a different view here:
  >  >> A. Otterstedt, Fretting about tuning (review of D. Dolata,
  Meantone
  > temperaments on lutes and viols, Bloomington und Indiana, 2016),
   in:
  > Early Music, cax101, [5]https://doi.org/10.1093/em/cax101
  >  >>
  >  >> Andreas
  >  >>
  >  >>> Am 08.03.2018 um 16:09 schrieb Daniel Shoskes
  <[6]kidneykut...@gmail.com>:
  >  >>>
  >  >>> For an excellent book by a musico

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Christopher Wilke]

   I'm also curious how to tighten an old fret once the knot has been
   burned. Sterling, can you enlighten us?

   I've sometimes very lightly run a soldering iron along the length of
   the back of the fret and, if there is space, at the bend at the knot.
   It seems to help if the fret is not very loose, but one has to be
   really careful not to press too hard or you can cause a weak spot or
   even breakage. It only works on frets that aren't too wobbly to begin
   with. If too loose, out come the shims...

   Chris
   [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

   On Friday, March 9, 2018, 7:58 AM, Tristan von Neumann
wrote:

   How would you tighten the frets? I tried burning off the knot a bit
   more

   so it pulls together. Does work sometimes.

   I could put pieces of matches under the fret, but that's cheating :)

   Am 09.03.2018 um 05:09 schrieb spiffys84121:

   > It is quite easy to tighten frets when they become loose. It baffles
   me

   > when I see lutes with shims on several frets. Changing your frets
   when

   > they are loose is like changing your shoe laces every time they
   become

   > loose. Just tighten those frets!

   > Sterling

   >

   >

   >

   > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

   >

   >  Original message 

   > From: Tristan von Neumann <[2]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>

   > Date: 3/8/18 6:28 PM (GMT-07:00)

   > To: lutelist Net <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>

   > Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

   >

   > My frets move even if I don't want them to move... at least after
   some

   > time. Maybe my knots are not good enough. But once you move them,
   they

   > become loose.

   > Actually I find some differences in tone very appealing.

   > Even if some pieces sound dark or harsh, I try to think of it as
   color

   > and not a flaw.

   > I don't know how this was in different climate zones of Europe, but
   is

   > there a region where Lutes are always in tune, considering the
   "Little

   > Ice Age" of course, not today's reemerging from it.

   > But with gut and mostly difficult weather conditions back then, I
   might

   > want to think that we're already in Lute Heaven with being able to

   > choose our room temperature and even avoid gut strings if you're ok
   with

   > it...

   > I sometimes wonder who Archicembali were kept in tune...

   >

   > Am 08.03.2018 um 18:39 schrieb Daniel Shoskes:

   >  > I don't have OUP access so can't read the entire review, but would
   be

   > rather surprised to have a criticism boil down to Dolata's thesis was

   > "the frets can move so they must have moved". I read the book a
   couple

   > of years ago but glancing through it again there is a balanced and

   > measured weighing of evidence including iconography, spacing of

   > historical fixed fret instruments and multiple vihuela, viol and lute

   > sources including Galilei. If someone can share the entire review
   with

   > me I would be happy to re-evalutate and reconsider. For me
   personally,

   > spending most of my plucking in the d minor tuning world, equal

   > temperament is the norm.

   >  >

   >  > Returning to the original question of the original poster, the
   book

   > contains practical advice for tuning in meantone temperaments using
   the

   > ear and/or a commercial electronic tuner and deals with pros and cons

   > for solo and ensemble players.

   >  >

   >  > Danny

   >  >

   >  >> On Mar 8, 2018, at 10:57 AM, Andreas Schlegel

   > <[4]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch> wrote:

   >  >>

   >  >> There's a different view here:

   >  >> A. Otterstedt, Fretting about tuning (review of D. Dolata,
   Meantone

   > temperaments on lutes and viols, Bloomington und Indiana, 2016), in:

   > Early Music, cax101, [5]https://doi.org/10.1093/em/cax101

   >  >>

   >  >> Andreas

   >  >>

   >  >>> Am 08.03.2018 um 16:09 schrieb Daniel Shoskes
   <[6]kidneykut...@gmail.com>:

   >  >>>

   >  >>> For an excellent book by a musicologist and busy lute performer

   > (solo and continuo), I highly recommend "Meantone Temperaments on
   Lutes

   > and Viols" by David Dolata. Indiana University Press 2016. History

   > covered in part 1, theory in part 2 and practicalities in part 3 (by
   ear

   > and using a tuning device).

   >  >>>

   >  >>> goo.gl/9Aewv2 <[7]http://goo.gl/9Aewv2>

   >  >>>

   >  >>>

   >  >>>> On Mar 8, 2018, at 9:54 AM, Matthew Daillie

   > <[8]dail...@club-internet.fr

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Tristan von Neumann]

How would you tighten the frets? I tried burning off the knot a bit more 
so it pulls together. Does work sometimes.

I could put pieces of matches under the fret, but that's cheating :)

Am 09.03.2018 um 05:09 schrieb spiffys84121:
It is quite easy to tighten frets when they become loose. It baffles me 
when I see lutes with shims on several frets. Changing your frets when 
they are loose is like changing your shoe laces every time they become 
loose. Just tighten those frets!

Sterling



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

 Original message 
From: Tristan von Neumann 
Date: 3/8/18 6:28 PM (GMT-07:00)
To: lutelist Net 
Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

My frets move even if I don't want them to move... at least after some
time. Maybe my knots are not good enough. But once you move them, they
become loose.
Actually I find some differences in tone very appealing.
Even if some pieces sound dark or harsh, I try to think of it as color
and not a flaw.
I don't know how this was in different climate zones of Europe, but is
there a region where Lutes are always in tune, considering the "Little
Ice Age" of course, not today's reemerging from it.
But with gut and mostly difficult weather conditions back then, I might
want to think that we're already in Lute Heaven with being able to
choose our room temperature and even avoid gut strings if you're ok with
it...
I sometimes wonder who Archicembali were kept in tune...

Am 08.03.2018 um 18:39 schrieb Daniel Shoskes:
 > I don’t have OUP access so can’t read the entire review, but would be 
rather surprised to have a criticism boil down to Dolata's thesis was 
“the frets can move so they must have moved”. I read the book a couple 
of years ago but glancing through it again there is a balanced and 
measured weighing of evidence including iconography, spacing of 
historical fixed fret instruments and multiple vihuela, viol and lute 
sources including Galilei. If someone can share the entire review with 
me I would be happy to re-evalutate and reconsider. For me personally, 
spending most of my plucking in the d minor tuning world, equal 
temperament is the norm.

 >
 > Returning to the original question of the original poster, the book 
contains practical advice for tuning in meantone temperaments using the 
ear and/or a commercial electronic tuner and deals with pros and cons 
for solo and ensemble players.

 >
 > Danny
 >
 >> On Mar 8, 2018, at 10:57 AM, Andreas Schlegel 
 wrote:

 >>
 >> There’s a different view here:
 >> A. Otterstedt, Fretting about tuning (review of D. Dolata, Meantone 
temperaments on lutes and viols, Bloomington und Indiana, 2016), in: 
Early Music, cax101, https://doi.org/10.1093/em/cax101

 >>
 >> Andreas
 >>
 >>> Am 08.03.2018 um 16:09 schrieb Daniel Shoskes :
 >>>
 >>> For an excellent book by a musicologist and busy lute performer 
(solo and continuo), I highly recommend “Meantone Temperaments on Lutes 
and Viols” by David Dolata. Indiana University Press 2016. History 
covered in part 1, theory in part 2 and practicalities in part 3 (by ear 
and using a tuning device).

 >>>
 >>> goo.gl/9Aewv2 <http://goo.gl/9Aewv2>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>> On Mar 8, 2018, at 9:54 AM, Matthew Daillie 
 wrote:

 >>>>
 >>>> I totally agree with Martin Shepherd (indeed two of our messages 
said the same thing) but what is the valid point Ron was making ??

 >>>>
 >>>> Leonard's original post was a question about his method for tuning 
1/4 comma meantone, not whether it was appropriate or not to use it on 
lutes, a can of worms I certainly did not wish to open (personally I use 
both equal and 1/5 comma mean-tone on my lutes).

 >>>>
 >>>> Best,
 >>>> Matthew
 >>>>
 >>>>
 >>>> On 08/03/2018 15:31, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
 >>>>>   Ron and Martin have valid points - in particular the advocacy 
of a true
 >>>>>   meantone is something of a chimera on the lute. Indeed, this 
matter of

 >>>>>   non-equal temperament on lutes has been considered on this forum a
 >>>>>   number of times before - just search the archives.  For example 
this

 >>>>>   some seven years ago (and quite a few much more recently):
 >>>>> * [1]Martyn Hodgson 
 >>>>
 >>>>
 >>>>
 >>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
 >>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 >>>
 >>>
 >>> --
 >>
 >> Andreas Schlegel
 >> Eckstr. 6
 >> CH-5737 Menziken
 >> Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
 >> Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
 >> lute.cor...@sunrise.ch
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> --
 >
 >
 >
 >

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Rainer]

On 08.03.2018 13:18, Martin Shepherd wrote:

I should just point out that there are no pure fifths in meantone temperaments. 
 The fifths are close to pure in equal temperament, just 2 cents narrow, but in 
meantone temperaments they are much more narrow.

I usually use 6th comma, and I do find the fifths useful as a tuning check, but 
only because I know by ear how flat they should sound.  I often play (as 
arpeggios) a sequence:

c1c2a3, a1a2c4, d2d3a4, etc.

To check that all the fifths are equally narrow. (and the octaves are perfect).


Many years ago I checked which tuning methods have perfect octaves and unisons.

That's a simple problem in linear algebra - trivial.

There is only one solution: Equal temperament.

Rainer  




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[spiffys84121]

   It is quite easy to tighten frets when they become loose. It baffles me
   when I see lutes with shims on several frets. Changing your frets when
   they are loose is like changing your shoe laces every time they become
   loose. Just tighten those frets!

   Sterling

   Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

    Original message 
   From: Tristan von Neumann 
   Date: 3/8/18 6:28 PM (GMT-07:00)
   To: lutelist Net 
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

   My frets move even if I don't want them to move... at least after some
   time. Maybe my knots are not good enough. But once you move them, they
   become loose.
   Actually I find some differences in tone very appealing.
   Even if some pieces sound dark or harsh, I try to think of it as color
   and not a flaw.
   I don't know how this was in different climate zones of Europe, but is
   there a region where Lutes are always in tune, considering the "Little
   Ice Age" of course, not today's reemerging from it.
   But with gut and mostly difficult weather conditions back then, I might
   want to think that we're already in Lute Heaven with being able to
   choose our room temperature and even avoid gut strings if you're ok
   with
   it...
   I sometimes wonder who Archicembali were kept in tune...
   Am 08.03.2018 um 18:39 schrieb Daniel Shoskes:
   > I don't have OUP access so can't read the entire review, but would be
   rather surprised to have a criticism boil down to Dolata's thesis was
   "the frets can move so they must have moved". I read the book a couple
   of years ago but glancing through it again there is a balanced and
   measured weighing of evidence including iconography, spacing of
   historical fixed fret instruments and multiple vihuela, viol and lute
   sources including Galilei. If someone can share the entire review with
   me I would be happy to re-evalutate and reconsider. For me personally,
   spending most of my plucking in the d minor tuning world, equal
   temperament is the norm.
   >
   > Returning to the original question of the original poster, the book
   contains practical advice for tuning in meantone temperaments using the
   ear and/or a commercial electronic tuner and deals with pros and cons
   for solo and ensemble players.
   >
   > Danny
   >
   >> On Mar 8, 2018, at 10:57 AM, Andreas Schlegel
wrote:
   >>
   >> There's a different view here:
   >> A. Otterstedt, Fretting about tuning (review of D. Dolata, Meantone
   temperaments on lutes and viols, Bloomington und Indiana, 2016), in:
   Early Music, cax101, https://doi.org/10.1093/em/cax101
   >>
   >> Andreas
   >>
   >>> Am 08.03.2018 um 16:09 schrieb Daniel Shoskes
   :
   >>>
   >>> For an excellent book by a musicologist and busy lute performer
   (solo and continuo), I highly recommend "Meantone Temperaments on Lutes
   and Viols" by David Dolata. Indiana University Press 2016. History
   covered in part 1, theory in part 2 and practicalities in part 3 (by
   ear and using a tuning device).
   >>>
   >>> goo.gl/9Aewv2 <http://goo.gl/9Aewv2>
   >>>
   >>>
   >>>> On Mar 8, 2018, at 9:54 AM, Matthew Daillie
wrote:
   >>>>
   >>>> I totally agree with Martin Shepherd (indeed two of our messages
   said the same thing) but what is the valid point Ron was making ??
   >>>>
   >>>> Leonard's original post was a question about his method for tuning
   1/4 comma meantone, not whether it was appropriate or not to use it on
   lutes, a can of worms I certainly did not wish to open (personally I
   use both equal and 1/5 comma mean-tone on my lutes).
   >>>>
   >>>> Best,
   >>>> Matthew
   >>>>
   >>>>
   >>>> On 08/03/2018 15:31, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
   >>>>>   Ron and Martin have valid points - in particular the advocacy
   of a true
   >>>>>   meantone is something of a chimera on the lute. Indeed, this
   matter of
   >>>>>   non-equal temperament on lutes has been considered on this
   forum a
   >>>>>   number of times before - just search the archives.  For example
   this
   >>>>>   some seven years ago (and quite a few much more recently):
   >>>>> * [1]Martyn Hodgson 
   >>>>
   >>>>
   >>>>
   >>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
   >>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >>>
   >>>
   >>> --
   >>
   >> Andreas Schlegel
   >> Eckstr. 6
   >> CH-5737 Menziken
   >> Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
   >> Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
   >> lute.cor...@sunrise.ch
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >> --
   >
   >
   >
   >

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Tristan von Neumann]

My frets move even if I don't want them to move... at least after some 
time. Maybe my knots are not good enough. But once you move them, they 
become loose.

Actually I find some differences in tone very appealing.
Even if some pieces sound dark or harsh, I try to think of it as color 
and not a flaw.
I don't know how this was in different climate zones of Europe, but is 
there a region where Lutes are always in tune, considering the "Little 
Ice Age" of course, not today's reemerging from it.
But with gut and mostly difficult weather conditions back then, I might 
want to think that we're already in Lute Heaven with being able to 
choose our room temperature and even avoid gut strings if you're ok with 
it...

I sometimes wonder who Archicembali were kept in tune...

Am 08.03.2018 um 18:39 schrieb Daniel Shoskes:

I don’t have OUP access so can’t read the entire review, but would be rather 
surprised to have a criticism boil down to Dolata's thesis was “the frets can 
move so they must have moved”. I read the book a couple of years ago but 
glancing through it again there is a balanced and measured weighing of evidence 
including iconography, spacing of historical fixed fret instruments and 
multiple vihuela, viol and lute sources including Galilei. If someone can share 
the entire review with me I would be happy to re-evalutate and reconsider. For 
me personally, spending most of my plucking in the d minor tuning world, equal 
temperament is the norm.

Returning to the original question of the original poster, the book contains 
practical advice for tuning in meantone temperaments using the ear and/or a 
commercial electronic tuner and deals with pros and cons for solo and ensemble 
players.

Danny


On Mar 8, 2018, at 10:57 AM, Andreas Schlegel  wrote:

There’s a different view here:
A. Otterstedt, Fretting about tuning (review of D. Dolata, Meantone 
temperaments on lutes and viols, Bloomington und Indiana, 2016), in: Early 
Music, cax101, https://doi.org/10.1093/em/cax101

Andreas


Am 08.03.2018 um 16:09 schrieb Daniel Shoskes :

For an excellent book by a musicologist and busy lute performer (solo and 
continuo), I highly recommend “Meantone Temperaments on Lutes and Viols” by 
David Dolata. Indiana University Press 2016. History covered in part 1, theory 
in part 2 and practicalities in part 3 (by ear and using a tuning device).

goo.gl/9Aewv2 



On Mar 8, 2018, at 9:54 AM, Matthew Daillie  wrote:

I totally agree with Martin Shepherd (indeed two of our messages said the same 
thing) but what is the valid point Ron was making ??

Leonard's original post was a question about his method for tuning 1/4 comma 
meantone, not whether it was appropriate or not to use it on lutes, a can of 
worms I certainly did not wish to open (personally I use both equal and 1/5 
comma mean-tone on my lutes).

Best,
Matthew


On 08/03/2018 15:31, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

  Ron and Martin have valid points - in particular the advocacy of a true
  meantone is something of a chimera on the lute. Indeed, this matter of
  non-equal temperament on lutes has been considered on this forum a
  number of times before - just search the archives.  For example this
  some seven years ago (and quite a few much more recently):
* [1]Martyn Hodgson 




To get on or off this list see list information at
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--


Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch




--

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Arto Wikla]

Hi dear fellow lutenists

My experience in many international "master courses" is that those, who 
talk most of this or that tuning, "4th" or "6th" or "equal", are just 
those, who are not the best in the intonation...


Lute is a strange animal: you make compromises, you put tastini, you set 
your frets in different places, and most importantly, you really can 
also effect the pitch by your finger, not as much as the viola di gamba 
players, but yes, you can! :-)


Arto



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Leonard Williams]

  Perhaps, having movable frets, an appropriate approach would be to
   find some predominant chords in a selection of pieces and tune to those
   chords.  Retune between groupings.  Makes designing a program trickier,
   but possibly with more consistent consonance.  Unless, of course,
   you're aiming for distinctive dissonances to define various modes.

  I'm not trying to promote any particular tuning method--every lute
   and its player are different.  Just playing with ideas for tuning
   toward best outcome.  There's always the chance that after one has
   gotten those gut strings "perfect" someone will turn on the air
   conditioning.

   Leonard

   Sorry if this is a duplicate mailing

   -Original Message-
   From: Martin Shepherd 
   To: Lute List 
   Sent: Thu, Mar 8, 2018 11:11 am
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech
   I was not advocating any particular temperament, just trying to explain
   that even in equal temperament, the fifths are not pure.
   M
   ---
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References

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   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Daniel Shoskes]

I don’t have OUP access so can’t read the entire review, but would be rather 
surprised to have a criticism boil down to Dolata's thesis was “the frets can 
move so they must have moved”. I read the book a couple of years ago but 
glancing through it again there is a balanced and measured weighing of evidence 
including iconography, spacing of historical fixed fret instruments and 
multiple vihuela, viol and lute sources including Galilei. If someone can share 
the entire review with me I would be happy to re-evalutate and reconsider. For 
me personally, spending most of my plucking in the d minor tuning world, equal 
temperament is the norm.

Returning to the original question of the original poster, the book contains 
practical advice for tuning in meantone temperaments using the ear and/or a 
commercial electronic tuner and deals with pros and cons for solo and ensemble 
players.

Danny

> On Mar 8, 2018, at 10:57 AM, Andreas Schlegel  wrote:
> 
> There’s a different view here:
> A. Otterstedt, Fretting about tuning (review of D. Dolata, Meantone 
> temperaments on lutes and viols, Bloomington und Indiana, 2016), in: Early 
> Music, cax101, https://doi.org/10.1093/em/cax101 
> 
> Andreas
> 
>> Am 08.03.2018 um 16:09 schrieb Daniel Shoskes :
>> 
>> For an excellent book by a musicologist and busy lute performer (solo and 
>> continuo), I highly recommend “Meantone Temperaments on Lutes and Viols” by 
>> David Dolata. Indiana University Press 2016. History covered in part 1, 
>> theory in part 2 and practicalities in part 3 (by ear and using a tuning 
>> device).
>> 
>> goo.gl/9Aewv2 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Mar 8, 2018, at 9:54 AM, Matthew Daillie  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I totally agree with Martin Shepherd (indeed two of our messages said the 
>>> same thing) but what is the valid point Ron was making ??
>>> 
>>> Leonard's original post was a question about his method for tuning 1/4 
>>> comma meantone, not whether it was appropriate or not to use it on lutes, a 
>>> can of worms I certainly did not wish to open (personally I use both equal 
>>> and 1/5 comma mean-tone on my lutes).
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> Matthew
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 08/03/2018 15:31, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
  Ron and Martin have valid points - in particular the advocacy of a true
  meantone is something of a chimera on the lute. Indeed, this matter of
  non-equal temperament on lutes has been considered on this forum a
  number of times before - just search the archives.  For example this
  some seven years ago (and quite a few much more recently):
* [1]Martyn Hodgson 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 
>> 
>> --
> 
> Andreas Schlegel
> Eckstr. 6
> CH-5737 Menziken
> Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
> Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
> lute.cor...@sunrise.ch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Martyn Hodgson]

   I should have added to my comment below that, because tied frets makes
   it easy to have carefully graduated frets and thus to set a lute very
   'fine' indeed (ie with a relatively low distance between the string and
   fingerboard even in high positions), it makes playing considerably
   easier in the higher positions. We also know that this was a preferred
   historic practice.
   MH
 __

   From: Martyn Hodgson 
   To: Andreas Schlegel ; Daniel Shoskes
   
   Cc: Matthew Daillie ; lute list
   
   Sent: Thursday, 8 March 2018, 16:25
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech
 I agree with the review: just because frets could be moved doesn't
   mean
 they were. The historical evidence is thin indeed. Tying frets is a
 very convenient way to fret a lute and, an added advantage, can
   easily
 be replaced when worn.
 MH
   __
 From: Andreas Schlegel <[1]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch>
 To: Daniel Shoskes <[2]kidneykut...@gmail.com>
 Cc: Matthew Daillie <[3]dail...@club-internet.fr>; lute list
 <[4]Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 Sent: Thursday, 8 March 2018, 16:02
     Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech
 There's a different view here:
 A. Otterstedt, Fretting about tuning (review of D. Dolata, Meantone
 temperaments on lutes and viols, Bloomington und Indiana, 2016), in:
 Early Music, cax101, [1][5]https://doi.org/10.1093/em/cax101
 Andreas
 > Am 08.03.2018 um 16:09 schrieb Daniel Shoskes
 <[2][6]kidneykut...@gmail.com>:
 >
 > For an excellent book by a musicologist and busy lute performer
   (solo
 and continuo), I highly recommend "Meantone Temperaments on Lutes and
 Viols" by David Dolata. Indiana University Press 2016. History
   covered
 in part 1, theory in part 2 and practicalities in part 3 (by ear and
 using a tuning device).
 >
 > goo.gl/9Aewv2 <[3][7]http://goo.gl/9Aewv2>
 >
 >
 >> On Mar 8, 2018, at 9:54 AM, Matthew Daillie
 <[4][8]dail...@club-internet.fr> wrote:
 >>
 >> I totally agree with Martin Shepherd (indeed two of our messages
 said the same thing) but what is the valid point Ron was making ??
 >>
 >> Leonard's original post was a question about his method for tuning
 1/4 comma meantone, not whether it was appropriate or not to use it
   on
 lutes, a can of worms I certainly did not wish to open (personally I
 use both equal and 1/5 comma mean-tone on my lutes).
 >>
 >> Best,
 >> Matthew
 >>
 >>
 >> On 08/03/2018 15:31, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
 >>>  Ron and Martin have valid points - in particular the advocacy of
   a
 true
 >>>  meantone is something of a chimera on the lute. Indeed, this
 matter of
 >>>  non-equal temperament on lutes has been considered on this forum
   a
 >>>  number of times before - just search the archives.  For example
 this
 >>>  some seven years ago (and quite a few much more recently):
 >>>* [1]Martyn Hodgson <[5][9]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> To get on or off this list see list information at
 >> [6][10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 >
 >
 > --
 Andreas Schlegel
 Eckstr. 6
 CH-5737 Menziken
 Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
 Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
 [7][11]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch
 --
 --
   References
 1. [12]https://doi.org/10.1093/em/cax101
 2. mailto:[13]kidneykut...@gmail.com
 3. [14]http://goo.gl/9Aewv2
 4. mailto:[15]dail...@club-internet.fr
 5. mailto:[16]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 6. [17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 7. mailto:[18]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch

   --

References

   1. mailto:lute.cor...@sunrise.ch
   2. mailto:kidneykut...@gmail.com
   3. mailto:dail...@club-internet.fr
   4. mailto:Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   5. https://doi.org/10.1093/em/cax101
   6. mailto:kidneykut...@gmail.com
   7. http://goo.gl/9Aewv2
   8. mailto:dail...@club-internet.fr
   9. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
  10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  11. mailto:lute.cor...@sunrise.ch
  12. https://doi.org/10.1093/em/cax101
  13. mailto:kidneykut...@gmail.com
  14. http://goo.gl/9Aewv2
  15. mailto:dail...@club-internet.fr
  16. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
  17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  18. mailto:lute.cor...@sunrise.ch

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Leonard Williams]

   Perhaps, having movable frets, an appropriate approach would be to
   find some predominant chords in a selection of pieces and tune to those
   chords.  Retune between groupings.  Makes designing a program trickier,
   but possibly with more consistent consonance.  Unless, of course,
   you're aiming for distinctive dissonances to define various modes.

  I'm not trying to promote any particular tuning method--every lute
   and its player are different.  Just playing with ideas for tuning
   toward best outcome.  There's always the chance that after one has
   gotten those gut strings "perfect" someone will turn on the air
   conditioning.

   Leonard
   -Original Message-
   From: Martin Shepherd 
   To: Lute List 
   Sent: Thu, Mar 8, 2018 11:11 am
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech
   I was not advocating any particular temperament, just trying to explain
   that even in equal temperament, the fifths are not pure.
   M
   ---
   This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
   [1]https://www.avast.com/antivirus
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Martyn Hodgson]

   I agree with the review: just because frets could be moved doesn't mean
   they were. The historical evidence is thin indeed. Tying frets is a
   very convenient way to fret a lute and, an added advantage, can easily
   be replaced when worn.
   MH
 __

   From: Andreas Schlegel 
   To: Daniel Shoskes 
   Cc: Matthew Daillie ; lute list
   
   Sent: Thursday, 8 March 2018, 16:02
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech
   There's a different view here:
   A. Otterstedt, Fretting about tuning (review of D. Dolata, Meantone
   temperaments on lutes and viols, Bloomington und Indiana, 2016), in:
   Early Music, cax101, [1]https://doi.org/10.1093/em/cax101
   Andreas
   > Am 08.03.2018 um 16:09 schrieb Daniel Shoskes
   <[2]kidneykut...@gmail.com>:
   >
   > For an excellent book by a musicologist and busy lute performer (solo
   and continuo), I highly recommend "Meantone Temperaments on Lutes and
   Viols" by David Dolata. Indiana University Press 2016. History covered
   in part 1, theory in part 2 and practicalities in part 3 (by ear and
   using a tuning device).
   >
   > goo.gl/9Aewv2 <[3]http://goo.gl/9Aewv2>
   >
   >
   >> On Mar 8, 2018, at 9:54 AM, Matthew Daillie
   <[4]dail...@club-internet.fr> wrote:
   >>
   >> I totally agree with Martin Shepherd (indeed two of our messages
   said the same thing) but what is the valid point Ron was making ??
   >>
   >> Leonard's original post was a question about his method for tuning
   1/4 comma meantone, not whether it was appropriate or not to use it on
   lutes, a can of worms I certainly did not wish to open (personally I
   use both equal and 1/5 comma mean-tone on my lutes).
   >>
   >> Best,
   >> Matthew
   >>
   >>
   >> On 08/03/2018 15:31, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
   >>>  Ron and Martin have valid points - in particular the advocacy of a
   true
   >>>  meantone is something of a chimera on the lute. Indeed, this
   matter of
   >>>  non-equal temperament on lutes has been considered on this forum a
   >>>  number of times before - just search the archives.  For example
   this
   >>>  some seven years ago (and quite a few much more recently):
   >>>* [1]Martyn Hodgson <[5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
   >>
   >>
   >>
   >> To get on or off this list see list information at
   >> [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   >
   >
   > --
   Andreas Schlegel
   Eckstr. 6
   CH-5737 Menziken
   Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
   Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
   [7]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch
   --

   --

References

   1. https://doi.org/10.1093/em/cax101
   2. mailto:kidneykut...@gmail.com
   3. http://goo.gl/9Aewv2
   4. mailto:dail...@club-internet.fr
   5. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   7. mailto:lute.cor...@sunrise.ch

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Martin Shepherd]

I was not advocating any particular temperament, just trying to explain 
that even in equal temperament, the fifths are not pure.


M


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Andreas Schlegel]

There’s a different view here:
A. Otterstedt, Fretting about tuning (review of D. Dolata, Meantone 
temperaments on lutes and viols, Bloomington und Indiana, 2016), in: Early 
Music, cax101, https://doi.org/10.1093/em/cax101 

Andreas

> Am 08.03.2018 um 16:09 schrieb Daniel Shoskes :
> 
> For an excellent book by a musicologist and busy lute performer (solo and 
> continuo), I highly recommend “Meantone Temperaments on Lutes and Viols” 
> by David Dolata. Indiana University Press 2016. History covered in part 1, 
> theory in part 2 and practicalities in part 3 (by ear and using a tuning 
> device).
> 
> goo.gl/9Aewv2 
> 
> 
>> On Mar 8, 2018, at 9:54 AM, Matthew Daillie  wrote:
>> 
>> I totally agree with Martin Shepherd (indeed two of our messages said the 
>> same thing) but what is the valid point Ron was making ??
>> 
>> Leonard's original post was a question about his method for tuning 1/4 comma 
>> meantone, not whether it was appropriate or not to use it on lutes, a can of 
>> worms I certainly did not wish to open (personally I use both equal and 1/5 
>> comma mean-tone on my lutes).
>> 
>> Best,
>> Matthew
>> 
>> 
>> On 08/03/2018 15:31, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
>>>   Ron and Martin have valid points - in particular the advocacy of a true
>>>   meantone is something of a chimera on the lute. Indeed, this matter of
>>>   non-equal temperament on lutes has been considered on this forum a
>>>   number of times before - just search the archives.  For example this
>>>   some seven years ago (and quite a few much more recently):
>>> * [1]Martyn Hodgson 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 
> --

Andreas Schlegel
Eckstr. 6
CH-5737 Menziken
Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
lute.cor...@sunrise.ch




--

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Daniel Shoskes]

For an excellent book by a musicologist and busy lute performer (solo and 
continuo), I highly recommend “Meantone Temperaments on Lutes and Viols” by 
David Dolata. Indiana University Press 2016. History covered in part 1, theory 
in part 2 and practicalities in part 3 (by ear and using a tuning device).

goo.gl/9Aewv2 


> On Mar 8, 2018, at 9:54 AM, Matthew Daillie  wrote:
> 
> I totally agree with Martin Shepherd (indeed two of our messages said the 
> same thing) but what is the valid point Ron was making ??
> 
> Leonard's original post was a question about his method for tuning 1/4 comma 
> meantone, not whether it was appropriate or not to use it on lutes, a can of 
> worms I certainly did not wish to open (personally I use both equal and 1/5 
> comma mean-tone on my lutes).
> 
> Best,
> Matthew
> 
> 
> On 08/03/2018 15:31, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
>>Ron and Martin have valid points - in particular the advocacy of a true
>>meantone is something of a chimera on the lute. Indeed, this matter of
>>non-equal temperament on lutes has been considered on this forum a
>>number of times before - just search the archives.  For example this
>>some seven years ago (and quite a few much more recently):
>>  * [1]Martyn Hodgson 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


--

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Tristan von Neumann]

e third fret 4th
  course is given in its G# position whereas its much commoner use is
at
  Ab, etc).  You'll have to analyse Kapsberger's diatonic/chromatic
  usage at each fret position to be able to estimate what temperament
he
  employed - when I did it I found equal temparament was generally
  indicated..
  MH
  PS This topic generally has been the subject of repeated threads on
  this list - Andrew, you may care to trawl the substantial archives.
  __________

    From: Ron Andrico 
To: Martin Shepherd ; Lute List

Sent: Thursday, 8 March 2018, 12:42
Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech
  And I will add that thirds are not and never were meant to be pure.
  Octaves, fifths, and fourths are pure and thirds are dissonant.  This
  is fundamental to understanding the character of early music, and
  reinforced as pertains to fretting the lute by Vincenzo Galilei.  I
  agree with Galilei, who was one smart fella, and all this mucking
about
  with temperament is really keyboard-centric.
  RA
__
  From: [3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on
    behalf
  of Martin Shepherd <[5]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
  Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2018 12:18 PM
  To: Lute List
  Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech
  I should just point out that there are no pure fifths in meantone
  temperaments.  The fifths are close to pure in equal temperament,
just
  2
  cents narrow, but in meantone temperaments they are much more narrow.
  I usually use 6th comma, and I do find the fifths useful as a tuning
  check, but only because I know by ear how flat they should sound.  I
  often play (as arpeggios) a sequence:
  c1c2a3, a1a2c4, d2d3a4, etc.
  To check that all the fifths are equally narrow. (and the octaves are
  perfect).
  Martin
  On 08/03/2018 12:45, Leonard Williams wrote:
  >I should have added--it seems to work quite well.  I check
  perfect
  >fifths from open to 2nd fret on the next higher string also.
The
  ear
  >tuning has, to be sure, the final say.  But for starters, when
  things
  >get a bit off, the f transposition has been nice for getting the
  open
  >strings in place. When my strings are behaving, the tuning stays
  pretty
  >good, so I don't do this every time I practice.
  >
  >Thanks for your input!
  >Leonard
  >-Original Message-
  >From: Matthew Daillie <[6]dail...@club-internet.fr>
  >To: Leonard Williams <[7]arc...@verizon.net>; Lute List
  ><[8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
  >Sent: Thu, Mar 8, 2018 5:31 am
  >Subject: Re: [LUTE] meantone tuning tech
  >Hi Leonard,
  >This seems to be a very convoluted and hit and miss method to
me.
  Maybe
  >it would be good to get back to basics (which is what you are
  doing
  >when
  >checking the major thirds between the fifth and third courses of
  your
  >lute).
  >With 1/4 comma meantone you are looking to have 8 pure,
beat-less
  major
  >thirds (C-E, for example). These are narrower than equal
  temperament
  >thirds which can sound pretty awful once you get used to the
  purity of
  >major thirds. It is not always easy to hear the beats on a lute
  (far
  >less evident than with the metal strings and clear harmonics of
a
  >harpsichord, for example) so it is generally advised to set the
  frets
  >based on calculations for your string length. You can use a
  calculator
  >such as the one provided online by Lauri Niskanen which will
give
  you
  >the distances between the nut and the various frets. All you
need
  to do
  >is enter the string length of your lute and place your frets
  >accordingly. Here's the link:
  >[1][9]https://www.niskanenlutes.com/index.php?p=frets
  >Once you've done that you will need to see if you require extra
  frets
  >(tastini) for notes that would not be in tune without them (such
  as the
  >first position F# on the 4th course of a lute in g'). Mean tone
  >distinguishes between enharmonic notes, (so D# will be lower
than
  Eb
  >flat, for example) and you can't have both at the same time on
  the lute
  >and you will need to adjust the position of certain frets
  according to
  >the piece yo

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Matthew Daillie]

I totally agree with Martin Shepherd (indeed two of our messages said 
the same thing) but what is the valid point Ron was making ??


Leonard's original post was a question about his method for tuning 1/4 
comma meantone, not whether it was appropriate or not to use it on 
lutes, a can of worms I certainly did not wish to open (personally I use 
both equal and 1/5 comma mean-tone on my lutes).


Best,
Matthew


On 08/03/2018 15:31, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

Ron and Martin have valid points - in particular the advocacy of a true
meantone is something of a chimera on the lute. Indeed, this matter of
non-equal temperament on lutes has been considered on this forum a
number of times before - just search the archives.  For example this
some seven years ago (and quite a few much more recently):
  * [1]Martyn Hodgson 




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[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Ron and Martin have valid points - in particular the advocacy of a true
   meantone is something of a chimera on the lute. Indeed, this matter of
   non-equal temperament on lutes has been considered on this forum a
   number of times before - just search the archives.  For example this
   some seven years ago (and quite a few much more recently):
 * [1]Martyn Hodgson 
 *
 * 09/01/11 at 2:50 PM

   To[2]Lute Net

   Dear Andrew,
 The problem with a lot of writing about unequal temperament on the
   lute
 is that it's either written by many who base their conclusions almost
 entirely on keyboard practice (where, of course, with individual keys
 one can indeed make a deliberate choice between a chromatic or
   diatonic
 semitone in all octaves) or those who have heard that 'meantone'
   gives
 purer thirds and therefore by asserting this they are somehow
   'better'
 than those inclined to other views.
 Most such writers seem blissfully unaware of the fundemental problems
 that many of the Old Ones themselves squarely faced up to: that by
 having a fret across the fingerboard it is not possible to set up a
 lute in such a meantone (ie on some courses the fret will have to
   stop
 a chromatic note; on another a diatonic one). In a few early pieces
   it
 may be possible to set up a suitable meantone (say 1/6 comma, which
 gives both thirds and fifths roughly the same distance from pure) but
 even here one runs into problems as I pointed out in my original
 reviews (in FoMRHI Quarterly) of Lindley's still unsurpassed book: eg
 Luis Milan does in fact use the first fret for chromatic notes on the
 4th course.
 My own view is that in practice a modest degree of tempering can
   often
 end up with more harmonious results for many pieces - in particular
   by
 moving the second fret a bit towards the nut and the third a bit
 towards the neck (both around an 1/8th commas worth) and then
   tempering
 the open strings accordingly by following the old unison/octave
   tuning
 checks.
 However I'm often outfaced by many late 16th century Italian sources
 which, for example, freely use the first fret on the first course for
   a
 chromatic or a diatonic note! - implying either they had no sense of
 tuning or something pretty close to equal temperament was routinely
 employed (as Lindley concludes).
 Of course there is the red herring that one can use 'tastini' (ie
   small
 additional frets placed against certain fret/courses to allow a
   choice
 of diatonic or chromatic). Even allowing that it's always technically
 possible to employ these and that the buzzing on the paired fret is
 somehow overcome, there is the problem that the sole source which
 mentions these (Vincenzo Galilei - a celebrated thoerist as well as
 practicing lutenist - in 'Fromino Dialogo' 1568,1584)  speaks of the
 practice in a  most disparaging manner:  "Now I come to the
   matter
 of 'tastini' which lately some people seek to introduce to remove
   some
 of the sharpness from the thirds and major tenths (as they try to
 persuade those who are more foolish than they).  but those using
 'tastini' do not know much about thoery". Unsurprisingly, no other
 contemporary lutenists seem to make any reference to such
   affectations.
 David van Ooijen has probably made the best stab at simple
   instructions
 on how to set up a lute for various meantone temperaments (see his
 site) but even he is obliged to fudge the outcome by assuming
 particular diatonic or chromatic settings for certain frets which
   wont
 work in many pieces/keys (eg for a nominal G lute the third fret 4th
 course is given in its G# position whereas its much commoner use is
   at
 Ab, etc).  You'll have to analyse Kapsberger's diatonic/chromatic
 usage at each fret position to be able to estimate what temperament
   he
 employed - when I did it I found equal temparament was generally
 indicated..
 MH
 PS This topic generally has been the subject of repeated threads on
 this list - Andrew, you may care to trawl the substantial archives.
 __

   From: Ron Andrico 
   To: Martin Shepherd ; Lute List
   
   Sent: Thursday, 8 March 2018, 12:42
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech
 And I will add that thirds are not and never were meant to be pure.
 Octaves, fifths, and fourths are pure and thirds are dissonant.  This
 is fundamental to understanding the character of early music, and
 reinforced as pertains to fretting the lute by Vincenzo Galilei.  I
 agree with Galilei, who was one 

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Leonard Williams]

   I'm sure I never get things really perfect--there's also the chance
   that further up the string some falseness will intrude, or I'm just not
   hearing beats that are there.  Nevertheless, I do keep trying to make
   it sound nice.  And I've found that my lute, when well tuned, actually
   sounds louder (from more sympathetic vibes?).

   Leonard
   -Original Message-
   From: Matthew Daillie 
   To: lute 
   Sent: Thu, Mar 8, 2018 8:04 am
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech
   I fear that there is a misunderstanding here. The 'perfect' fifths you
   are checking (intervals of three tones and a semi-tone) are not 'pure'
   fifths. One cannot have pure major thirds and pure (beat-less) fifths
   in
   the same temperament. The fifths (and fourths) in 1/4 mean tone are
   tempered.
   Best,
   Matthew
   On 08/03/2018 12:45, Leonard Williams wrote:
   > I should have added--it seems to work quite well. I check perfect
   > fifths from open to 2nd fret on the next higher string also.
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Matthew Daillie]

You are confusing two totally different things Ron and your comment is 
completely misleading.


Of course major thirds can be pure. When the corresponding harmonics of 
the two notes constituting a major third are aligned, then the interval 
is pure. This is a physical, acoustical phenomenon.


Dissonance and consonance are something else and to an extent depict a 
subjective stance. The intervals considered to be dissonant were not the 
same in different periods. In medieval music, intervals other than 
unisons, fourths, fifths and octaves were considered dissonant. Fifths 
and fourths were sung (and played) pure. Thirds and sixths were not used 
as they are today to provide harmonic texture. The thirds in Pythagorean 
tuning (which featured pure fifths except for one wolf fifth) were far 
from pure and so sounded very dissonant. In Renaissance music, thirds 
and sixths became the essential building blocks and were considered 
consonant. Dissonance required preparing and resolving the dissonant 
intervals which were not at all the same as those in medieval times.


Whether you like it or not, the choice of temperament impacts upon the 
musical result. You cannot play a lute without tuning it to a particular 
temperament. You can tune it to equal temperament if you like, and there 
is historical evidence for equal temperament having been used in the 
16th century, but hopefully it is an informed choice on your part.


We have a lot to learn from keyboard players and their various 
instruments just as they probably have a lot to learn from us. After 
all, the repertoire was clearly intertwined for several centuries. To 
dismiss temperament as 'keyboard-centric mucking around' is verging on 
obscurantism.


Best,

Matthew

- On 08/03/2018 13:38, Ron Andrico wrote:

And I will add that thirds are not and never were meant to be pure.
Octaves, fifths, and fourths are pure and thirds are dissonant.  This
is fundamental to understanding the character of early music, and
reinforced as pertains to fretting the lute by Vincenzo Galilei.  I
agree with Galilei, who was one smart fella, and all this mucking about
with temperament is really keyboard-centric.
RA





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[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Matthew Daillie]

I fear that there is a misunderstanding here. The 'perfect' fifths you 
are checking (intervals of three tones and a semi-tone) are not 'pure' 
fifths. One cannot have pure major thirds and pure (beat-less) fifths in 
the same temperament. The fifths (and fourths) in 1/4 mean tone are 
tempered.


Best,

Matthew

On 08/03/2018 12:45, Leonard Williams wrote:

  I should have added--it seems to work quite well.  I check perfect
fifths from open to 2nd fret on the next higher string also.





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[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Martin Shepherd]

I should just point out that there are no pure fifths in meantone 
temperaments.  The fifths are close to pure in equal temperament, just 2 
cents narrow, but in meantone temperaments they are much more narrow.


I usually use 6th comma, and I do find the fifths useful as a tuning 
check, but only because I know by ear how flat they should sound.  I 
often play (as arpeggios) a sequence:


c1c2a3, a1a2c4, d2d3a4, etc.

To check that all the fifths are equally narrow. (and the octaves are 
perfect).


Martin

On 08/03/2018 12:45, Leonard Williams wrote:

I should have added--it seems to work quite well.  I check perfect
fifths from open to 2nd fret on the next higher string also.  The ear
tuning has, to be sure, the final say.  But for starters, when things
get a bit off, the f transposition has been nice for getting the open
strings in place. When my strings are behaving, the tuning stays pretty
good, so I don't do this every time I practice.

Thanks for your input!
Leonard
-Original Message-
From: Matthew Daillie 
To: Leonard Williams ; Lute List

Sent: Thu, Mar 8, 2018 5:31 am
Subject: Re: [LUTE] meantone tuning tech
Hi Leonard,
This seems to be a very convoluted and hit and miss method to me. Maybe
it would be good to get back to basics (which is what you are doing
when
checking the major thirds between the fifth and third courses of your
lute).
With 1/4 comma meantone you are looking to have 8 pure, beat-less major
thirds (C-E, for example). These are narrower than equal temperament
thirds which can sound pretty awful once you get used to the purity of
major thirds. It is not always easy to hear the beats on a lute (far
less evident than with the metal strings and clear harmonics of a
harpsichord, for example) so it is generally advised to set the frets
based on calculations for your string length. You can use a calculator
such as the one provided online by Lauri Niskanen which will give you
the distances between the nut and the various frets. All you need to do
is enter the string length of your lute and place your frets
accordingly. Here's the link:
[1]https://www.niskanenlutes.com/index.php?p=frets
Once you've done that you will need to see if you require extra frets
(tastini) for notes that would not be in tune without them (such as the
first position F# on the 4th course of a lute in g'). Mean tone
distinguishes between enharmonic notes, (so D# will be lower than Eb
flat, for example) and you can't have both at the same time on the lute
and you will need to adjust the position of certain frets according to
the piece you are playing. Once your frets are set, I would suggest
tuning an a' from a tuning fork or electronic tuner and then tuning the
other courses by ear from that by using octaves. If you do not feel
comfortable tuning by ear then use the setting on your tuner to get 1/4
comma mean-tone with an Eb as you will be playing music in flat keys.
The final adjustments really do need to be made by ear, however good
your tuner and you can check the major thirds of the piece you are
playing.
Hope this helps.
Best,
Matthew
can use a pr
On 08/03/2018 02:17, Leonard Williams wrote:
> Here's a tuning method I've been experimenting with, and I'm
wondering about others' related experiences. My 8 course is nominally
in g (i.e., g treble), 1/4 comma meantone. But - since most of the
music I play is in flat keys, I set my Peterson tuner for an instrument
in F instead of C. Thus when I tune the g, the readout is d, etc. I've
also found that using a chord consisting of fret d on 3rd, e on 4th,
and f on fifth is helpful in refining the tuning and those frets.
> Any similar experiences?
>
> Best to all,
> Leonard Williams

--

References

1. https://www.niskanenlutes.com/index.php?p=frets


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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html




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[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Leonard Williams]

   I should have added--it seems to work quite well.  I check perfect
   fifths from open to 2nd fret on the next higher string also.  The ear
   tuning has, to be sure, the final say.  But for starters, when things
   get a bit off, the f transposition has been nice for getting the open
   strings in place. When my strings are behaving, the tuning stays pretty
   good, so I don't do this every time I practice.

   Thanks for your input!
   Leonard
   -Original Message-
   From: Matthew Daillie 
   To: Leonard Williams ; Lute List
   
   Sent: Thu, Mar 8, 2018 5:31 am
   Subject: Re: [LUTE] meantone tuning tech
   Hi Leonard,
   This seems to be a very convoluted and hit and miss method to me. Maybe
   it would be good to get back to basics (which is what you are doing
   when
   checking the major thirds between the fifth and third courses of your
   lute).
   With 1/4 comma meantone you are looking to have 8 pure, beat-less major
   thirds (C-E, for example). These are narrower than equal temperament
   thirds which can sound pretty awful once you get used to the purity of
   major thirds. It is not always easy to hear the beats on a lute (far
   less evident than with the metal strings and clear harmonics of a
   harpsichord, for example) so it is generally advised to set the frets
   based on calculations for your string length. You can use a calculator
   such as the one provided online by Lauri Niskanen which will give you
   the distances between the nut and the various frets. All you need to do
   is enter the string length of your lute and place your frets
   accordingly. Here's the link:
   [1]https://www.niskanenlutes.com/index.php?p=frets
   Once you've done that you will need to see if you require extra frets
   (tastini) for notes that would not be in tune without them (such as the
   first position F# on the 4th course of a lute in g'). Mean tone
   distinguishes between enharmonic notes, (so D# will be lower than Eb
   flat, for example) and you can't have both at the same time on the lute
   and you will need to adjust the position of certain frets according to
   the piece you are playing. Once your frets are set, I would suggest
   tuning an a' from a tuning fork or electronic tuner and then tuning the
   other courses by ear from that by using octaves. If you do not feel
   comfortable tuning by ear then use the setting on your tuner to get 1/4
   comma mean-tone with an Eb as you will be playing music in flat keys.
   The final adjustments really do need to be made by ear, however good
   your tuner and you can check the major thirds of the piece you are
   playing.
   Hope this helps.
   Best,
   Matthew
   can use a pr
   On 08/03/2018 02:17, Leonard Williams wrote:
   > Here's a tuning method I've been experimenting with, and I'm
   wondering about others' related experiences. My 8 course is nominally
   in g (i.e., g treble), 1/4 comma meantone. But - since most of the
   music I play is in flat keys, I set my Peterson tuner for an instrument
   in F instead of C. Thus when I tune the g, the readout is d, etc. I've
   also found that using a chord consisting of fret d on 3rd, e on 4th,
   and f on fifth is helpful in refining the tuning and those frets.
   > Any similar experiences?
   >
   > Best to all,
   > Leonard Williams

   --

References

   1. https://www.niskanenlutes.com/index.php?p=frets


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Matthew Daillie]

Hi Leonard,

This seems to be a very convoluted and hit and miss method to me. Maybe 
it would be good to get back to basics (which is what you are doing when 
checking the major thirds between the fifth and third courses of your lute).


With 1/4 comma meantone you are looking to have 8 pure, beat-less major 
thirds (C-E, for example). These are narrower than equal temperament 
thirds which can sound pretty awful once you get used to the purity of 
major thirds. It is not always easy to hear the beats on a lute (far 
less evident than with the metal strings and clear harmonics of a 
harpsichord, for example) so it is generally advised to set the frets 
based on calculations for your string length. You can use a calculator 
such as the one provided online by Lauri Niskanen which will give you 
the distances between the nut and the various frets. All you need to do 
is enter the string length of your lute and place your frets 
accordingly. Here's the link:


https://www.niskanenlutes.com/index.php?p=frets

Once you've done that you will need to see if you require extra frets 
(tastini) for notes that would not be in tune without them (such as the 
first position F# on the 4th course of a lute in g'). Mean tone 
distinguishes between enharmonic notes, (so D# will be lower than Eb 
flat, for example) and you can't have both at the same time on the lute 
and you will need to adjust the position of certain frets according to 
the piece you are playing. Once your frets are set, I would suggest 
tuning an a' from a tuning fork or electronic tuner and then tuning the 
other courses by ear from that by using octaves. If you do not feel 
comfortable tuning by ear then use the setting on your tuner to get 1/4 
comma mean-tone with an Eb as you will be playing music in flat keys. 
The final adjustments really do need to be made by ear, however good 
your tuner and you can check the major thirds of the piece you are playing.


Hope this helps.

Best,

Matthew

can use a pr

On 08/03/2018 02:17, Leonard Williams wrote:

Here’s a tuning method I’ve been experimenting with, and I’m wondering about 
others’ related experiences.  My 8 course is nominally in g (i.e., g treble), 
1/4 comma meantone. But - since most of the music I play is in flat keys, I set 
my Peterson tuner for an instrument in F instead of C.  Thus when I tune the g, 
the readout is d, etc.  I’ve also found that using a chord consisting of fret d 
on 3rd, e on 4th, and f on fifth is helpful in refining the tuning and those 
frets.
Any similar experiences?

Best to all,
Leonard Williams





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