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Further to my last about this, here's the picture and one of the email communications from the 07s. MH --- On Thu, 12/7/07, Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: From: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> Subject: Further to Fwd: Re: [LUTE] Lute straps To: "David Van Edwards" <da...@vanedwards.co.uk> Date: Thursday, 12 July, 2007, 8:53 AM Dear David, Here is the original (lower resolution) pic which seems strangely rather clearer. I think you may be right that what I took for the lower ribbon could well be the sleeve line. I'm afraid I accepted Kenneth's observations without looking too closely. Nevertheless, isn't it odd that no one else noticed a year ago! - as said earlier , it just goes to show how much interest most players really have in what the Old Ones actually did.................. Having said this, as far as I'm aware ALL extant lutes with the upper button also have an end button (do you know different) - of course some could, I suppose, be later additions but surely not all of them. Two button fixing (like with the back strap of a theorbo) certainly does provide much more security - nevertheless your observation certainly means that the case for using two buttons is not proved. I did, in fact, try just using the upper button fastening (as part of struggling to get two ribbons to work) - the problem was that to avoid the lute slipping down the leg (ie right thigh) the instrument had to be held with the belly almost vertically with the right forearm bracing it against the thigh (a la modern classical guitar position) which is not seen in most early iconography where a much more relaxed posture is displayed with mostly the belly turned somewhat upwards. If two body buttons were used, the crossed ribbon method seems to provide the necessary stability etc and looking like the pic in terms of even down to the topmost ribbon coming out of the jerkin as from the direction of the right arm (not left arm if the ribbon wasn't crossed). However, I may be in danger of not practising what I preach here and trying too hard to interpret the evidence in a particular way. Whatever, the problem remains of how to hold the lute without cradling the instrument in the lap (as modern guitar) with or without crossed legs................. regards, Martyn Kenneth Bé <kbe.l...@gmail.com> wrote:.. Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 09:36:37 -0400 From: "Kenneth Bé" <kbe.l...@gmail.com> To: s...@wollaton55.freeserve.co.uk, katherine_l...@sbcglobal.net, man...@manololaguillo.com, hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [LUTE] Lute straps Hello Stewart, Katherine, Luca, and Martin: I'm writing to the four of you individually from my private email address because there is a remarkable print I want to share by Wenceslaus Hollar, the early 17th C. German who worked in London, showing a lute player from the side angle where you can clearly see the strap attached to the body of the lute and looping around the button (actually it is attached to TWO buttons) on his jacket. I have scanned and attached it here (I don't know how to post images on the web, otherwise I'd share it with all on the lutelist). A Young Man Playing a Lute Etching (P.1698a) 185 x 130mm private collection Illustrated inL Wenceslaus Hollar: A Bohemian Artist in England by Richard T. Godfrey Yale Univ Press 1994 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Stewart McCoy" < s...@wollaton55.freeserve.co.uk> To: "Lute Net" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 17:43:02 +0100 Subject: [LUTE] Lute straps Dear Craig and Katherine, An alternative to using a strap, which was used in the 17th Century, is to tie a gut string between two pegs on the body of the instrument. One peg is where you'd expect to see a peg, i.e. in the middle of the end clasp; the other peg is fixed through the middle rib just before the body joins the neck. The string is tied so that it lies flush with the middle rib, and you hook it over a button on your coat to stabilise the lute. It is thought that Mouton may be holding his lute this way in that famous picture of him. If you think the artist hasn't quite got it right, and the lute looks as if it is suspended in front of the player as if by magic, it is possible that it is being held in this way. There is an article by Robert Spencer in _Early Music_, with a picture of the back of a lute, showing the gut string tied between two pegs. I could look up the reference if you want. If you play the lute standing up, and without a strap or a piece of string between two pegs, you have to use your left hand to support the instrument. This can be satisfactory for short periods, but can cause irritation to the part of the hand holding the neck, unaccustomed to the friction involved. Barré chords are problematic, so you may have to tinker with the music a bit, e.g. change |\ | |\ | |\ | _______________a_____ _____f__e____|_a__||_ ___________d_|_c__||_ _____e_______|_c__||_ __c__________|_c__||_ _____________|_a__||_ to |\ | |\ | |\ | _____a_________a_____ _____a__e____|_a__||_ _____a_____d_|_c__||_ _____________|____||_ __c__________|____||_ _____________|_a__||_ Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Allen" <co...@medievalist.org > To: <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 4:18 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute straps > Katherine Davies wrote: > > > >There are lots of renaissance pictures of people > >playing lutes while standing up without any sign of a > >strap. Does anyone do this? Any ideas on how - or if - > >it could be done? > > > >I'm not having a go at strap-users; I'm just a bit > >puzzled - I have enough trouble keeping the thing in > >place when I'm sitting down. > > A good friend of mine has been doing studies into the Medieval harp and all the iconography she's seen shows what she calls the magically levitating harp. No sign of a strap or other gadget to rest it on the knees (one harper I know has a crossbar on a wooden knob that fits into the sound hole in the back of the harp and the crossbar rests on his knees). She's been trying to figure out whether there is some sort of mechanism in place that the painted didn't see or if the painters simply didn't understand how the instrument is played took artiztic license. I"ve tried playing the lute standing up without a strap and it's very difficult for me. So I prefer to sit with a piece of suede across my knee to keep the lute from slipping. > > Regards, > Craig > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer > 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. > Signup at www.doteasy.com > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > Yahoo! Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign up for your free account today. --0-345006452-1235291295=:77846 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><DIV><BR>Further to my last about this, here's the picture and one of the email communications from the 07s.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>MH<BR>--- On <B>Thu, 12/7/07, Martyn Hodgson <I><hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">From: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk><BR>Subject: Further to Fwd: Re: [LUTE] Lute straps<BR>To: "David Van Edwards" <da...@vanedwards.co.uk><BR>Date: Thursday, 12 July, 2007, 8:53 AM<BR><BR> <DIV id=yiv800997777> <DIV><BR>Dear David,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here is the original (lower resolution) pic which seems strangely rather clearer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think you may be right that what I took for the lower ribbon could well be the sleeve line. I'm afraid I accepted Kenneth's observations without looking too closely. Nevertheless, isn't it odd that no one else noticed a year ago! - as said earlier , it just goes to show how much interest most players really have in what the Old Ones actually did..................</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Having said this, as far as I'm aware ALL extant lutes with the upper button also have an end button (do you know different) - of course some could, I suppose, be later additions but surely not all of them. Two button fixing (like with the back strap of a theorbo) certainly does provide much more security - nevertheless your observation certainly means that the case for using two buttons is not proved.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I did, in fact, try just using the upper button fastening (as part of struggling to get two ribbons to work) - the problem was that to avoid the lute slipping down the leg (ie right thigh) the instrument had to be held with the belly almost vertically with the right forearm bracing it against the thigh (a la modern classical guitar position) which is not seen in most early iconography where a much more relaxed posture is displayed with mostly the belly turned somewhat upwards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If two body buttons were used, the crossed ribbon method seems to provide the necessary stability etc and looking like the pic in terms of even down to the topmost ribbon coming out of the jerkin as from the direction of the right arm (not left arm if the ribbon wasn't crossed). However, I may be in danger of not practising what I preach here and trying too hard to interpret the evidence in a particular way. Whatever, the problem remains of how to hold the lute without cradling the instrument in the lap (as modern guitar) with or without crossed legs.................</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>regards,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Martyn</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR><B><I>Kenneth Bé <kbe.l...@gmail.com></I></B> wrote:..</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 09:36:37 -0400<BR>From: "Kenneth Bé" <kbe.l...@gmail.com><BR>To: s...@wollaton55.freeserve.co.uk, katherine_l...@sbcglobal.net, <BR>man...@manololaguillo.com, hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk<BR>Subject: Re: [LUTE] Lute straps<BR><BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid"> <DIV style="DIRECTION: ltr"><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2> <DIV>Hello Stewart, Katherine, Luca, and Martin:</DIV></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm writing to the four of you individually from my private email address because there is a remarkable print I want to share by Wenceslaus Hollar, the early 17th C. German who worked in London, showing a lute player from the side angle where you can clearly see the strap attached to the body of the lute and looping around the button (actually it is attached to TWO buttons) on his jacket. I have scanned and attached it here (I don't know how to post images on the web, otherwise I'd share it with all on the lutelist). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A Young Man Playing a Lute</DIV> <DIV>Etching (P.1698a)</DIV> <DIV>185 x 130mm</DIV> <DIV>private collection</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Illustrated inL</DIV> <DIV>Wenceslaus Hollar: A Bohemian Artist in England</DIV> <DIV>by Richard T. Godfrey</DIV> <DIV>Yale Univ Press 1994</DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">---------- Forwarded message ----------<BR>From: "Stewart McCoy" <<A href="mailto:s...@wollaton55.freeserve.co.uk"; target=_blank rel=nofollow> s...@wollaton55.freeserve.co.uk</A>><BR>To: "Lute Net" <<A href="mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"; target=_blank rel=nofollow>lute@cs.dartmouth.edu</A>><BR>Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 17:43:02 +0100<BR>Subject: [LUTE] Lute straps<BR>Dear Craig and Katherine, <BR><BR>An alternative to using a strap, which was used in the 17th Century,<BR>is to tie a gut string between two pegs on the body of the<BR>instrument. One peg is where you'd expect to see a peg, i.e. in the<BR>middle of the end clasp; the other peg is fixed through the middle <BR>rib just before the body joins the neck. The string is tied so that<BR>it lies flush with the middle rib, and you hook it over a button on<BR>your coat to stabilise the lute. It is thought that Mouton may be<BR>holding his lute this way in that famous picture of him. If you <BR>think the artist hasn't quite got it right, and the lute looks as if<BR>it is suspended in front of the player as if by magic, it is<BR>possible that it is being held in this way. There is an article by<BR>Robert Spencer in _Early Music_, with a picture of the back of a <BR>lute, showing the gut string tied between two pegs. I could look up<BR>the reference if you want.<BR><BR>If you play the lute standing up, and without a strap or a piece of<BR>string between two pegs, you have to use your left hand to support <BR>the instrument. This can be satisfactory for short periods, but can<BR>cause irritation to the part of the hand holding the neck,<BR>unaccustomed to the friction involved. Barré chords are problematic,<BR>so you may have to tinker with the music a bit, e.g. change<BR><BR> |\ |<BR> |\ |<BR> |\ |<BR>_______________a_____<BR>_____f__e____|_a__||_<BR>___________d_|_c__||_<BR>_____e_______|_c__||_<BR>__c__________|_c__||_<BR>_____________|_a__||_ <BR><BR>to<BR><BR> |\ |<BR> |\ |<BR> |\ |<BR>_____a_________a_____<BR>_____a__e____|_a__||_<BR>_____a_____d_|_c__||_<BR>_____________|____||_<BR>__c__________|____||_<BR>_____________|_a__||_ <BR><BR>Best wishes,<BR><BR>Stewart McCoy.<BR><BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Craig Allen" <<A href="mailto:co...@medievalist.org"; target=_blank rel=nofollow>co...@medievalist.org </A>><BR>To: <<A href="mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"; target=_blank rel=nofollow>lute@cs.dartmouth.edu</A>><BR>Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 4:18 PM<BR>Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute straps<BR><BR><BR>> Katherine Davies wrote:<BR>> ><BR>> >There are lots of renaissance pictures of people<BR>> >playing lutes while standing up without any sign of a<BR>> >strap. Does anyone do this? Any ideas on how - or if - <BR>> >it could be done?<BR>> ><BR>> >I'm not having a go at strap-users; I'm just a bit<BR>> >puzzled - I have enough trouble keeping the thing in<BR>> >place when I'm sitting down.<BR>><BR>> A good friend of mine has been doing studies into the Medieval<BR>harp and all the iconography she's seen shows what she calls the<BR>magically levitating harp. No sign of a strap or other gadget to<BR>rest it on the knees (one harper I know has a crossbar on a wooden <BR>knob that fits into the sound hole in the back of the harp and the<BR>crossbar rests on his knees). She's been trying to figure out<BR>whether there is some sort of mechanism in place that the painted<BR>didn't see or if the painters simply didn't understand how the <BR>instrument is played took artiztic license. I"ve tried playing the<BR>lute standing up without a strap and it's very difficult for me. So<BR>I prefer to sit with a piece of suede across my knee to keep the<BR>lute from slipping. <BR>><BR>> Regards,<BR>> Craig<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> ___________________________________________________________<BR>> $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer<BR>> 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. <BR>> Signup at <A href="http://www.doteasy.com/"; target=_blank rel=nofollow>www.doteasy.com</A><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> To get on or off this list see list information at <BR>> <A href="http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html"; target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html</A><BR>><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> <HR SIZE=1> Yahoo! Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, <A href="http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/evt=44106/*http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/mail/winter07.html"; target=_blank rel=nofollow>sign up for your free account today</A>.</DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table><br> --0-345006452-1235291295=:77846-- --
