[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace?
Dear Bill,
I meant to send the email to the lute list but pressed the wrong button
- I've rectified this now.
As you say it's unlikely we'll know for absolute certain - but I think
we can be pretty sure (95%+?) that before 1660 wire wounds were unknown
(tho' of course, twisted/braided wire was used for wire strung
instrument basses since the 16th century) and so paintings showing
coloured basses represent simple colouring effects or something else:
loading perhaps. Because of the limitation of string diameters on some
original bridges (and shown in some of the clearer paintings) I favour
denser basses which implies loaded strings. But they may have been
happy with a rubber band feel in the bass even when plucked at the
bridge - tho clearly there was an awareness that basses might be too
weak (hence theorbos etc) No need to go over the story again here
but its more a matter of the weight of evidence rather than a
categorical proof - ie more civil court than criminal court burden of
proof.
So I don't think we need be so pessimistic as to think 'In
all probability it will be different from what was admired at the time'
since the weight of evidence does indicate much. And this is the
history of such research - incremental steps.
regards
Martyn
--- On Wed, 28/11/12, William Samson wrote:
From: William Samson
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys
prone to rot according to Mace?
To: "Martyn Hodgson" , "Lute builder
Dmth"
Date: Wednesday, 28 November, 2012, 11:38
I don't suppose we'll ever know for sure, unless somebody comes
across
a well-preserved, accurately dated stash of old lute strings - or
perhaps they have all decayed/rotted?
Still, interesting views are being expressed. I suppose what we
should
all be doing is trying to produce as good a musical sound (to our
own
ears at least) as we can, using what's available to us. In all
probability it will be different from what was admired at the time,
but
short of discovering time-travel, there's not much we can do about
finding out how it actually did sound back then. I'd bet, though,
that
it would sound quite 'eccentric' to our ears.
Bill
From: Martyn Hodgson <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: Lute builder Dmth <[2]lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, 28 November 2012, 8:57
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys
prone
to rot according to Mace?
When you write 'The better explanation for seemingly thin,
coloured
strings on the basses of lutes...', what do you mean by
'better''?: - better in relation to the historical evidence (if so
precisely what)?; better for modern ears?; better for the cost?;
better
than currently available coloured /loaded strings?; better than
what?
And why would we wish to ignore clear iconographic evidence and
historical record?
MH
--- On Wed, 28/11/12, Shaun Ng <[1][3]shaunk...@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Shaun Ng <[2][4]shaunk...@gmail.com>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace?
To: "<[3][5]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl>" <[4][6]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl>
Cc: "<[5][7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>"
<[6][8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Wednesday, 28 November, 2012, 0:45
Just a short comment: I recently did some research on historical
stringing and in regards to pistoy loaded strings, there is no
evidence. The better explanation for seemingly thin, coloured
strings
on the basses of lutes is wound strings. At least we know such a
technology existed, even though their mention mostly comes a bit
too
late when we compare paintings of the time, which is not a good
way
to
get credible information about musical instruments anyway.
Shaun Ng
0426240 775 | [1][7][9]shaunk...@gmail.com | shaunng.blogspot.com
On 28/11/2012, at 5:35, <[2][8][10]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> wrote:
> Dear Anthony,
>
> Once more my apologies for such a hiatus in writing. As I said
before, the
> change of internet provider caused a lot of connection problems,
and
then
> traveling (a concert tour) didn't give me a chance to write
longer
messages.
> I'll try to catch up now, so please excuse me if I write too
long.
> You touched a couple of related topics in your last email, so I
will
try to
> address them separately.
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace?
I don't suppose we'll ever know for sure, unless somebody comes across a well-preserved, accurately dated stash of old lute strings - or perhaps they have all decayed/rotted? Still, interesting views are being expressed. I suppose what we should all be doing is trying to produce as good a musical sound (to our own ears at least) as we can, using what's available to us. In all probability it will be different from what was admired at the time, but short of discovering time-travel, there's not much we can do about finding out how it actually did sound back then. I'd bet, though, that it would sound quite 'eccentric' to our ears. Bill From: Martyn Hodgson To: Lute builder Dmth Sent: Wednesday, 28 November 2012, 8:57 Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? When you write 'The better explanation for seemingly thin, coloured strings on the basses of lutes...', what do you mean by 'better''?: - better in relation to the historical evidence (if so precisely what)?; better for modern ears?; better for the cost?; better than currently available coloured /loaded strings?; better than what? And why would we wish to ignore clear iconographic evidence and historical record? MH --- On Wed, 28/11/12, Shaun Ng <[1]shaunk...@gmail.com> wrote: From: Shaun Ng <[2]shaunk...@gmail.com> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? To: "<[3]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl>" <[4]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> Cc: "<[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>" <[6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: Wednesday, 28 November, 2012, 0:45 Just a short comment: I recently did some research on historical stringing and in regards to pistoy loaded strings, there is no evidence. The better explanation for seemingly thin, coloured strings on the basses of lutes is wound strings. At least we know such a technology existed, even though their mention mostly comes a bit too late when we compare paintings of the time, which is not a good way to get credible information about musical instruments anyway. Shaun Ng 0426240 775 | [1][7]shaunk...@gmail.com | shaunng.blogspot.com On 28/11/2012, at 5:35, <[2][8]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> wrote: > Dear Anthony, > > Once more my apologies for such a hiatus in writing. As I said before, the > change of internet provider caused a lot of connection problems, and then > traveling (a concert tour) didn't give me a chance to write longer messages. > I'll try to catch up now, so please excuse me if I write too long. > You touched a couple of related topics in your last email, so I will try to > address them separately. > > ROTTEN GUT > > Obviously the word "rotten" can have at least 2 meanings, however I am > afraid in this case Mace very clearly writes about decay of gut strings. > Just one example: > > "for that colour is a general sign of rottenness, or of the DECAY of the > string" > > The word "decay" reappears several times in the technical part of Music's > Monument, always in conjunction with the word "rottenness". This can't be > coincidental. > Now, one can consider why it is so difficult for us to accept that decay > process of a gut string could be real. I can see two reasons, namely: 1/ > none of us saw a rotting gut 2/ Mace is viewed as a very eccentric man > thence unreliable source of historical information. > I would like to challenge both of these notions. > > 1/ Is this possible for a gut to decay? Gut is an organic substance so if > unprotected it would start to decay very fast. Modern gut strings are very > well chemically protected against such a possibility. In Mace times gut was > treated with Griepoli i.e. tartar and a small quantity of Roch Allum (as > Philip Skippon an English traveller who visited an Italian string > manufacture testifies in 1663). In general gut absorbs humidity very easily > during which process it swells putting on some weight and volume. The porous > structure of gut and the way strands are assembled into a string makes it > even more susceptible to decay. Now, if we try to recreate conditions that > people were used to live in an average English household in 17c. (maybe > excluding aristocracy), and Mace was not a wealthy man, it is not difficult > to imagine that walls of such a building that had never seen a central > heating system would be prone to keep constant humidity inside. In that > light Mace's advice to keep a lute in the room with fireplace and even his > amusing remark to wrap
