[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Technical drawings (and ebony)

2009-04-10 Thread Jon Murphy

Tim,

I'm an amateur also, but isn't the pitch determined by the density and 
breaking strength of the string as well as its length?  And, of course the 
response of the instrument is determined by a number of factors, including 
volume of the bowl, size of the rose, and the makeup and bracing of the 
soundboard.


Tim


Quite correct, but there is a bit of an anomaly involved which which makes 
the length of the instrument the over-riding factor in the highest pitch for 
the top string. The lute, like the guitar and unlike the harp or psaltery, 
has the same length for all strings. The achievable pitch for the highest 
string will define the overall tuning of the instrument. Please pardon me if 
this reads a bit like a primer, I'm trying to sort out the competing 
factors - and those with more knowledge please allow that I'm trying to show 
the principles, not all the details.


The force required to break a string is a function of the tensile strength 
of the material and the diameter of the string. The tensile strength is 
measured in force per square unit, i.e. lbs. per square inch or kg. per 
square mm. or whatever (no arguments on force vs. weight, etc., please). The 
thicker the string the more force required to break it.


The pitch of a string is a function of the length, the tension, and the 
mass. Note that it is the mass of the string, not the density of the 
material. The mass is a cubic measure - the combination of the square 
measure that is guage (or diameter) and the length. There is an obvious 
interplay here as the vibrating length affects the pitch, and also affects 
the mass.


The anomaly that started me on my book on the topic is something understood 
by the old luthiers, but it came as a surprise to me when I first made my 
own instruments after over fifty years of playing guitar. (The book is on 
hold for the moment, I've been unable to complete my testing of the various 
string materials due to a medical matter - I carelessly left my right leg at 
the hospital some time ago and the testing involves lifting some heavy 
weights). I tuned up my first (and so far only) lute made from a kit and 
found I couldn't tune the chanterelle to g'. I took smaller and smaller 
guage strings, nylon and Nylgut, and they still broke at the same pitch. 
That got me started looking into it.


The apparant anomaly is that, given the material and the length, any string 
will break at the same pitch no matter the guage. When you think of it, it 
is no longer an anomaly. The greater guage requires more tension, given a 
fixed vibrating length, to come up to pitch as the string has more mass. It 
requires more force to break the thicker string, but also more tension to 
bring it up to pitch. Conversely it takes less tension to achieve the pitch 
on a lighter guage, but also less force to break it. It happens that the 
trade off is directly proportional and there is a breaking pitch for each 
material at a given vibrating length.


One thing that is an anomaly, however, is that the most commonly used string 
materials have factors that trade off and give them similar breaking 
pitches. Steel, gut, nylon and Nylgut have similar breaking pitches (about a 
tone and a half). Bronze and brass are quite different. I first worked this 
out mathematically from standard figures on the density and tensile strength 
of the materials. As I was unsatisfied with the standard specifications I 
decided to do actual tests to make averages for the various manufacturers - 
and that is what is on hold for the moment. (Breaking steel strings of some 
guages requires 150lbs of weight on my home made jig). But so far my results 
have confirmed the thesis, and also shown the standard figures to be a bit 
off.


BTW, I was able to tune my lute to G minor - I found a nylon fishing line at 
a sporting goods store that was just a bit more tensile strength than 
musical nylon. Nylgut would hold g' for an hour or so and f#' for a few 
days, musical nylon held the g' for a few days - the fishing line has held 
it for five years. I haven't tested gut yet, but from the standard figures 
it should break about a tone and a half below the nylon and Nylgut. I also 
converted a Bolivian charango to a Scot's mandora (g'' top string). No way, 
I tune it to d'', although it will take f''. That gives me a d'', g', d',g,d 
which can work with other instruments.


Again I beg the pardon of the list, most of you know far more than I. I have 
algebraically recast some of the string calculation formulae, and designed 
some graphic forms for the data. I am not comfortable with using the several 
computer programs for string selection as I don't know the underlying 
assumptions - I do mine on an ancient TI - 35 scientific calculator (and can 
do them quicker that booting the computer and using a program g). I'd be 
pleased to offer the form of calculation to any who want it. I've set them 
up so that one can make a single calculation of most of the 

[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Technical drawings (and ebony)

2009-04-09 Thread tamotz
I'm an amateur also, but isn't the pitch determined by the density and breaking 
strength of the string as well as its length?  And, of course the response of 
the instrument is determined by a number of factors, including volume of the 
bowl, size of the rose, and the makeup and bracing of the soundboard.  

I understand that more advanced luthiers are dealing with all of these 
variables to shape the sound, but at my point of ability I'm fascinated by the 
possibility of shaping the response by adjusting the bracing.  So far it's been 
largely a matter of luck with me, but I'd like to make it more certain and 
repeatable.  I find Lundberg's description of tuning the bracing rather 
bewildering.  With the lute I'm working on I'm thinking of trying tap tuning 
with a strobe meter.  Anyone have any advice on that?  It's an A lute.

Oh, and whoever it was who advised me over a month ago to use a wood other than 
ebony for the spacer strips in the bowl: were you ever right!  I went ahead 
with ebony because I thought I would need to scrape and sand the bowl enough to 
sand through any layer of black stain, but ebony just doesn't like to bend.  
I'm almost finished bending my 12 strips plus spares, but in the process I'm 
discovering new levels of patience in myself.  I have my bending iron turned up 
to nearly its highest setting and I'm re-wetting frequently, but I think it's 
taking me about an hour per strip.  And to think that people have built entire 
lutes out of ebony!  I'm doing this to match a lute that my teacher already 
has, but on my own I think if I ever use spacer strips again I would use 
another wood.  

Ah well, at this point for me every instrument is a learning opportunity.  And 
basically, it's still fun.

Tim



--- j...@murphsays.com wrote:

From: Jon Murphy j...@murphsays.com
To: d...@sardin.co.uk, David Van Edwards da...@vanedwards.co.uk
Cc: lute-buil...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Technical drawings
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 02:42:04 -0400

I wonder about the matter of technical drawings, and am comfortable about 
writing on the topic since David V. has entered into the discussion. A 
gentleman who understands the instrument, and the variations.

The lute isn't a single instrument, in the sense of the modern guitar. As I 
understand it it was made in varying lengths, which would define the pitch. 
The chanterelle defined the overall pitch of the instrument, by setting the 
max . I may be wrong, as I'm not a luthier, but my impression is that the 
various makers made instruments of differing length.The lutenist of early 
times wasn't really concerned about the absolute pitch, most played solo. 
And absolute pitch itself is a bit of a canard as the preserved organs of 
the Baroque period range from A=380 to a bit below our standard of A=400.

With the full expectation of being corrected I'l say that the real art of 
the luthier was the shaping, not the dimensions. The length dictates the 
highest pitch of the chanterelle, the string spacing could have been 
individually dictated by the lutenist who commissioned the instrument 
according to his needs. Pure speculation, would be interested in comments.

Best, Jon

 



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