Re: Practice Habits- (Hoppy)
Yes!! Claro que sì.. Saludos Donatella - Original Message - From: "Manolo Laguillo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Donatella Galletti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "LUTELIST" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2004 9:25 PM Subject: Re: Practice Habits- (Hoppy) > The sound, that's it... > > But, what does "intervals" mean? The jump from, say, c to e (major > third) or to f (quart)? Could you explain it better? Thank you very much! > > Saludos from Barcelona > > Manolo Laguillo > > PS Thank you to everybody who answered so nicely my question about the > Mary Burwell Tutor !!! > > > > > Donatella Galletti wrote: > > >I 've just listened to a lesson by Hoppy talking about this : he cited > >Besard, saying that you should practice not the whole piece from start to > >the end, but play a sentence 500 times, until it reflects yourself. > >H.Smith also added that it is depressing but anyway rewarding. I agree with > >this: I think one should need to practise the sound itself, because it is > >the main way of communicating, then the rythm, and at the same time trying > >excavating the piece ( the sentences in the piece and the voices) until you > >feel it part of yourself and expressing your personality perfectly. This > >cannot obviouly be obtained if you play following a metronome or the same > >model again and again, as this would just be like reading a poem as a > >kitchen recipy. On the other hand, the basics should be acquired before > >writing poems..but I prefer anyway someone playing poetry and making > >mistakes to someone playing it all correct and fast and that's it. Music > >should be a pleasure and meamingful everytime one touches the instrument, > >even to play open strings as an exercise. > > > >As I ws sitting in the back, I was not able to see whether Hoppy or the > >pupil was playing, but the difference in sound was immediately clear to me. > >I think it is the richness which comes from the soul directly and cannot > >really be taught, it must be found with years of practice and attention to > >that. > > > >Some more thoughts: I remember Oscar Ghiglia when talking about the same > >problem: he said to a student : "listen to the intervals , they never betray > >you, they never make you bored, listen how nice they are" . I think this is > >very true. > > > >Donatella > > > >http://web.tiscali.it/awebd > > > > > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at > >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > > --
Re: Practice Habits- (Hoppy)
The sound, that's it... But, what does "intervals" mean? The jump from, say, c to e (major third) or to f (quart)? Could you explain it better? Thank you very much! Saludos from Barcelona Manolo Laguillo PS Thank you to everybody who answered so nicely my question about the Mary Burwell Tutor !!! Donatella Galletti wrote: >I 've just listened to a lesson by Hoppy talking about this : he cited >Besard, saying that you should practice not the whole piece from start to >the end, but play a sentence 500 times, until it reflects yourself. >H.Smith also added that it is depressing but anyway rewarding. I agree with >this: I think one should need to practise the sound itself, because it is >the main way of communicating, then the rythm, and at the same time trying >excavating the piece ( the sentences in the piece and the voices) until you >feel it part of yourself and expressing your personality perfectly. This >cannot obviouly be obtained if you play following a metronome or the same >model again and again, as this would just be like reading a poem as a >kitchen recipy. On the other hand, the basics should be acquired before >writing poems..but I prefer anyway someone playing poetry and making >mistakes to someone playing it all correct and fast and that's it. Music >should be a pleasure and meamingful everytime one touches the instrument, >even to play open strings as an exercise. > >As I ws sitting in the back, I was not able to see whether Hoppy or the >pupil was playing, but the difference in sound was immediately clear to me. >I think it is the richness which comes from the soul directly and cannot >really be taught, it must be found with years of practice and attention to >that. > >Some more thoughts: I remember Oscar Ghiglia when talking about the same >problem: he said to a student : "listen to the intervals , they never betray >you, they never make you bored, listen how nice they are" . I think this is >very true. > >Donatella > >http://web.tiscali.it/awebd > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > --
Re: Practice Habits- (Hoppy)
I 've just listened to a lesson by Hoppy talking about this : he cited Besard, saying that you should practice not the whole piece from start to the end, but play a sentence 500 times, until it reflects yourself. H.Smith also added that it is depressing but anyway rewarding. I agree with this: I think one should need to practise the sound itself, because it is the main way of communicating, then the rythm, and at the same time trying excavating the piece ( the sentences in the piece and the voices) until you feel it part of yourself and expressing your personality perfectly. This cannot obviouly be obtained if you play following a metronome or the same model again and again, as this would just be like reading a poem as a kitchen recipy. On the other hand, the basics should be acquired before writing poems..but I prefer anyway someone playing poetry and making mistakes to someone playing it all correct and fast and that's it. Music should be a pleasure and meamingful everytime one touches the instrument, even to play open strings as an exercise. As I ws sitting in the back, I was not able to see whether Hoppy or the pupil was playing, but the difference in sound was immediately clear to me. I think it is the richness which comes from the soul directly and cannot really be taught, it must be found with years of practice and attention to that. Some more thoughts: I remember Oscar Ghiglia when talking about the same problem: he said to a student : "listen to the intervals , they never betray you, they never make you bored, listen how nice they are" . I think this is very true. Donatella http://web.tiscali.it/awebd To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Practice Habits
Dear Chris & All, It's a slightly different use of the computer to Stephen's, but I often use the midi output from Stringwalker or Fronimo to play along with to practice duets and song accompaniments. The sound is of course mechanically precise, much like using a metronome except with music attached, but given the lone player's tendency to veer off strict time that's not a bad thing. It's particularly useful with pieces like some of the Dowland songs that have long bars that are difficult to count. And for treble & ground duets you don't have to get someone to play the ground for you. Once I have the strict rhythms in my memory and fingers I can leave the computer and get on with thinking about how I want to perform the music. Best wishes, Denys - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 6:07 PM Subject: Re: Practice Habits > I would find this use of a computer terribly unhelpful > for myself. I can see how this could be helpful in > working out the compositional structure of a piece, > however listening to it in order to learn about how a > pieces goes would really block my personal > interpretation in performance. You're getting the > computer's rendition of the piece, and I would think > listening to that sterile version so many times would > embed it into your subconcious conception of how it > should go. I try to avoid listening to any recording > of a piece I'm learning until my own conception has > become manifest to some degree. (Only at that point > do I return to professional recordings in order to > discourage myself, or force me to realize how much > work I still have to go!) > > This should really even happen apart from the > mechanics of playing - if you can sing the piece > (aurally or mentally) both away from the instrument > and while playing, it makes usually makes it a lot > easier to overcome technical problems. This is > because you now have a musical reason to manifest > these or those notes a certain meaningful way rather > than simply thinking of them as awkward technical > turns. Ideally, all of the work you put in on > exercises, excised excerpts of pieces, etc., are only > part of the practice routine in order to teach your > fingers the freedom to "sing" what you have in your > head. Instead of focusing on "Ok... first finger, > third finger, index finger on the 4th string... now > the fast bit" you get to the point of the piece as a > musical whole. Tough work, this. - But very > rewarding in the end! > > Chris > > > > > > --- Vance Wood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > That's an interesting gambit to take. I like it but > > don't have the > > resources to pull it off, wish I did it would make > > figuring out the voicing > > a lot easier and clearly identifying the errors in > > the tablature if any. > > > > Vance Wood. > > - Original Message - > > From: "The Other" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "Vance Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute list" > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 12:42 PM > > Subject: Re: Practice Habits > > > > > > On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 12:33:34 -0700, Vance Wood > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > There has not been a great deal of response on the > > subject of practice. > > > This > > > leads me to believe that people are uninterested > > or are doing what I did > > > for > > > many years, specifically, playing the same piece > > over and over till I > > > thought I got it rightwhich was seldom, if the > > truth be known. > > > > I like to work up the piece on the computer using > > Harmony Assistant from > > Myriad Software (www.myriad-online.com) > > > > In conjunction with their Virtual Singer software > > version that comes with > > Harmony Assistant, you can work up the piece with > > vocals and instruments. > > Then I record the output to audio cassette tape > > (record it multiple times > > to fill up an entire side of 60 minute audio tape.) > > Finally, I go for a > > long walk and listen to the tape, hearing the > > instrumental and vocal parts > > over and over, letting it soak into the brain. > > > > It's easier for me to sing or play a piece when it's > > already in my > > subconscious. > > > > "The Other" Stephen Stubbs. > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > ___ > Do you Yahoo!? > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! > http://vote.yahoo.com > > >
Re: Practice Habits
For what its worth, there is a small paperback book written in the early nineties that I have found useful in my practicing and would recommend. It's called 'Mastery - the keys to success' by George Leonard. He is actually an Aikido instructor, but it is written generically and is a good book to help musicians improve their practicing. Tim Mills Denver - Original Message - From: "Ed Durbrow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 9:52 AM Subject: Re: Practice Habits > >I would find this use of a computer terribly unhelpful > >for myself. I can see how this could be helpful in > >working out the compositional structure of a piece, > >however listening to it in order to learn about how a > >pieces goes would really block my personal > >interpretation in performance. > > But the act of playing it into the computer is an act of learning. > > > You're getting the > >computer's rendition of the piece, and I would think > >listening to that sterile version so many times would > >embed it into your subconcious conception of how it > >should go. I try to avoid listening to any recording > >of a piece I'm learning until my own conception has > >become manifest to some degree. (Only at that point > >do I return to professional recordings in order to > >discourage myself, or force me to realize how much > >work I still have to go!) > > I understand what you are saying and what Steven is saying also. I > think both points of view are practical. It is essential to really > hear the shape of every phrase in all voices. This is hard for me to > do in a polyphonic piece and the only way for me is to just live with > it a good long while. The process can be sped along if I memorize it > and perform it. Of course, pushing even further and playing some > parts and singing another or transposing it or playing it on another > instrument help to take it to another level. Almost any FdaM ricercar > or fantasia is so deep it would take me untold lifetimes to learn > them all. If I can mentally slowly play the whole piece through in my > head imagining the fingerings and the sound of all the notes, then > I've pretty much got it. I find that very hard to do even with the > pieces my fingers have memorized. Whatever it takes. I've found when > I've had problems with my hands the things I've had to do to still > practice actually have helped because it gives me another angle to > look from: like playing with just one hand or the other or playing > extremely lightly. > > I think if you learn a piece by listening to someone else's > interpretation very much, it may put up a serious road block. I don't > think that often happens to me because, although I may have heard a > piece many times, when I stumble across it and decide to work on it, > I am not listening to it at that moment. I just remember it and > think, 'oh yeah, I know this'. I might listen to a recording and get > some ideas but usually not. I'm like you and don't want to get > influenced in the early stages of learning something. I'm usually not > too concerned about how someone else plays it anyway, I want to make > it my own. What usually happens is that after I've really, really > practiced a piece, I prefer the way I play it to other's > interpretation. This may be a bad thing and I have to fight this and > try and remain open to new ideas. > > > > >This should really even happen apart from the > >mechanics of playing - if you can sing the piece > >(aurally or mentally) both away from the instrument > >and while playing, it makes usually makes it a lot > >easier to overcome technical problems. This is > >because you now have a musical reason to manifest > >these or those notes a certain meaningful way rather > >than simply thinking of them as awkward technical > >turns. > > 100% agree. > > cheers, > > -- > Ed Durbrow > Saitama, Japan > http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
Re: Practice Habits
>I would find this use of a computer terribly unhelpful >for myself. I can see how this could be helpful in >working out the compositional structure of a piece, >however listening to it in order to learn about how a >pieces goes would really block my personal >interpretation in performance. But the act of playing it into the computer is an act of learning. > You're getting the >computer's rendition of the piece, and I would think >listening to that sterile version so many times would >embed it into your subconcious conception of how it >should go. I try to avoid listening to any recording >of a piece I'm learning until my own conception has >become manifest to some degree. (Only at that point >do I return to professional recordings in order to >discourage myself, or force me to realize how much >work I still have to go!) I understand what you are saying and what Steven is saying also. I think both points of view are practical. It is essential to really hear the shape of every phrase in all voices. This is hard for me to do in a polyphonic piece and the only way for me is to just live with it a good long while. The process can be sped along if I memorize it and perform it. Of course, pushing even further and playing some parts and singing another or transposing it or playing it on another instrument help to take it to another level. Almost any FdaM ricercar or fantasia is so deep it would take me untold lifetimes to learn them all. If I can mentally slowly play the whole piece through in my head imagining the fingerings and the sound of all the notes, then I've pretty much got it. I find that very hard to do even with the pieces my fingers have memorized. Whatever it takes. I've found when I've had problems with my hands the things I've had to do to still practice actually have helped because it gives me another angle to look from: like playing with just one hand or the other or playing extremely lightly. I think if you learn a piece by listening to someone else's interpretation very much, it may put up a serious road block. I don't think that often happens to me because, although I may have heard a piece many times, when I stumble across it and decide to work on it, I am not listening to it at that moment. I just remember it and think, 'oh yeah, I know this'. I might listen to a recording and get some ideas but usually not. I'm like you and don't want to get influenced in the early stages of learning something. I'm usually not too concerned about how someone else plays it anyway, I want to make it my own. What usually happens is that after I've really, really practiced a piece, I prefer the way I play it to other's interpretation. This may be a bad thing and I have to fight this and try and remain open to new ideas. > >This should really even happen apart from the >mechanics of playing - if you can sing the piece >(aurally or mentally) both away from the instrument >and while playing, it makes usually makes it a lot >easier to overcome technical problems. This is >because you now have a musical reason to manifest >these or those notes a certain meaningful way rather >than simply thinking of them as awkward technical >turns. 100% agree. cheers, -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Practice Habits
Practice is a funny word in English, our doctors and lawyers are said to practice when they are actually performing. Yet musicians are practicing when honing their skills without an audience. Taking the word only from the musical point of view there is yet a difference in the practice of practice, and this has been clear in the answers in this thread. Does one practice the technical skills or the music? Each is needed to make the music one hears. Does one listen to the "expert" on a CD and imitate his interpretation or does one read the music and get a sense of the music in one's head? I see no perfect solution, we are each different in our fingers and our ears. What works for one may not work for another. For myself I both practice music and technique. My harp is in front of my chair, and my lute is next to it (and my folk guitar within reach - and not far to go for the dulcimer and psalteries). My lute is my favorite (and I intend to become a "lutenist" of some sort by the time I'm 70, which leaves me a bit less than a year to go). I go through the Damiano exercises at the pace I can play them perfectly, then I play them, and the pieces he includes at a rythym that allows me to feel the piece. And the various pieces I've downloaded from the sites of this group, and the Ronn McFarlane Scot's Lute. I play the pieces I know up to pace, then I sight read a new piece and try to get the natural fingering. But in the middle of that I'll pull up the harp and play a piece I know, then sight read a piece (and less often the other instruments). If I get totally frustrated I'll grab the guitar and sing an old Irish ballad to myself, then put it down and pick up another instrument. I don't suggest this form of practice, but it works for me. Music is both in the "chops" and the mind. The finest fingers and technique in the world can make impressive sound, but not music if the musician can't hear it. A man with no fingers can make music on a theramin (or make a mess of it). The "I" in the HIP used on this list, as I understand it, means "informed". But my best guess is that that "informed" is yet a guess. I'm having a lot of fun with playing the Damiano exercises and pieces, and the McFalane ones, and the downloaded ones in different tempos and with changes of delays and emphasis. One of the nice things about lute notation is that it isn't set strictly note by note (unless one really makes it so). The divisions suggest, but don't define. One can picture the scene and play to it. Best, Jon To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Practice Habits
Dear Vance and All: It's true that there hasn't been a huge outpouring of response on practice habits, but I'd rather have a handful of thoughtful responses than three dozen half-baked wisecracks. Yours, Jim To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Practice Habits
I would find this use of a computer terribly unhelpful for myself. I can see how this could be helpful in working out the compositional structure of a piece, however listening to it in order to learn about how a pieces goes would really block my personal interpretation in performance. You're getting the computer's rendition of the piece, and I would think listening to that sterile version so many times would embed it into your subconcious conception of how it should go. I try to avoid listening to any recording of a piece I'm learning until my own conception has become manifest to some degree. (Only at that point do I return to professional recordings in order to discourage myself, or force me to realize how much work I still have to go!) This should really even happen apart from the mechanics of playing - if you can sing the piece (aurally or mentally) both away from the instrument and while playing, it makes usually makes it a lot easier to overcome technical problems. This is because you now have a musical reason to manifest these or those notes a certain meaningful way rather than simply thinking of them as awkward technical turns. Ideally, all of the work you put in on exercises, excised excerpts of pieces, etc., are only part of the practice routine in order to teach your fingers the freedom to "sing" what you have in your head. Instead of focusing on "Ok... first finger, third finger, index finger on the 4th string... now the fast bit" you get to the point of the piece as a musical whole. Tough work, this. - But very rewarding in the end! Chris --- Vance Wood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > That's an interesting gambit to take. I like it but > don't have the > resources to pull it off, wish I did it would make > figuring out the voicing > a lot easier and clearly identifying the errors in > the tablature if any. > > Vance Wood. > - Original Message - > From: "The Other" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Vance Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute list" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 12:42 PM > Subject: Re: Practice Habits > > > On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 12:33:34 -0700, Vance Wood > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > There has not been a great deal of response on the > subject of practice. > > This > > leads me to believe that people are uninterested > or are doing what I did > > for > > many years, specifically, playing the same piece > over and over till I > > thought I got it rightwhich was seldom, if the > truth be known. > > I like to work up the piece on the computer using > Harmony Assistant from > Myriad Software (www.myriad-online.com) > > In conjunction with their Virtual Singer software > version that comes with > Harmony Assistant, you can work up the piece with > vocals and instruments. > Then I record the output to audio cassette tape > (record it multiple times > to fill up an entire side of 60 minute audio tape.) > Finally, I go for a > long walk and listen to the tape, hearing the > instrumental and vocal parts > over and over, letting it soak into the brain. > > It's easier for me to sing or play a piece when it's > already in my > subconscious. > > "The Other" Stephen Stubbs. > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > ___ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com
Re: Practice Habits
That's an interesting gambit to take. I like it but don't have the resources to pull it off, wish I did it would make figuring out the voicing a lot easier and clearly identifying the errors in the tablature if any. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: "The Other" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Vance Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 12:42 PM Subject: Re: Practice Habits On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 12:33:34 -0700, Vance Wood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > There has not been a great deal of response on the subject of practice. > This > leads me to believe that people are uninterested or are doing what I did > for > many years, specifically, playing the same piece over and over till I > thought I got it rightwhich was seldom, if the truth be known. I like to work up the piece on the computer using Harmony Assistant from Myriad Software (www.myriad-online.com) In conjunction with their Virtual Singer software version that comes with Harmony Assistant, you can work up the piece with vocals and instruments. Then I record the output to audio cassette tape (record it multiple times to fill up an entire side of 60 minute audio tape.) Finally, I go for a long walk and listen to the tape, hearing the instrumental and vocal parts over and over, letting it soak into the brain. It's easier for me to sing or play a piece when it's already in my subconscious. "The Other" Stephen Stubbs. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Practice Habits
On Sun, 17 Oct 2004 12:33:34 -0700, Vance Wood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > There has not been a great deal of response on the subject of practice. > This > leads me to believe that people are uninterested or are doing what I did > for > many years, specifically, playing the same piece over and over till I > thought I got it rightwhich was seldom, if the truth be known. I like to work up the piece on the computer using Harmony Assistant from Myriad Software (www.myriad-online.com) In conjunction with their Virtual Singer software version that comes with Harmony Assistant, you can work up the piece with vocals and instruments. Then I record the output to audio cassette tape (record it multiple times to fill up an entire side of 60 minute audio tape.) Finally, I go for a long walk and listen to the tape, hearing the instrumental and vocal parts over and over, letting it soak into the brain. It's easier for me to sing or play a piece when it's already in my subconscious. "The Other" Stephen Stubbs. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Practice Habits
Many good points, Vance. It was unfortunate to be seperated from lute for a few years, I'm sure, but when you eventually picked it up again there was a different vantage point. This is important. Viewing the challenge from a different "place" can have many benefits. I wouldn't wish such an accident on anyone but there are ways to view the nature of the beast from different angles and one is to put it away for a while. Often you'll learn something in the meanwhile that may influence your views. Then you come back and see that what you thought was smooth suddenly can sound suddenly labored or misguided. I know a lutenist who loves to occasionally strum the theorbo on certain chords. What was to sound joyous really comes out awkward and strangled. I have a piece I've been struggling w/ for years and now that I can finally get the final section under my fingers it's become demoralizing to hear how labored it sounds. Maybe I'll have 'a accident' and return to it in a different frame of mind in a few years. Lesson: Getting your fingers around a piece makes the glass half full. Another way to build strength, patience and confidence is to work w/ others. Often accompaniments are a little easier and it does wonders for tempo and smoothness. Most renaissance lute music has a strong vocal influence and if you can tap into a singer's phraseology your phrases will become less self-conscious and more subconscious. This will inevitably flow into the non-vocal pieces. Don't be afraid to smile at the fun bits. There is a strong tendancy among lutenists and guitarists to play way too often by themselves. (Heck, why not? --they are wonderfully self-contained instruments!) Unfortunately this can create a myopia. If you can't find a singer to work with, find the vocal originals of intabulations. Write the words under the cantus, draw colored lines for the alto and tenor and understand their play and interplay, inspire the bassus loudly or solo to really understand it. Carefully read Ronn McFarlane's article on tone color in the next LSA newsletter--there are many roads to Rome! (& Venice, Lyons, Antwerp, Seville and London ;^). This is only a personal preference but spend some time exclusively w/ vocal music (intabs or songs w/ others) and then slowly wander back to the fantasies and recercars. I strongly believe the recercar could be the highest pinnacle of the wordless lutesong. It demands a lot of patience and attention to give the best of them their due. Remember, it's ok to slow it down to bring out the vocal lines--it's the interplay that's important, not the "flash". And position. Relax your face, shoulders and note your stability. Understand how your head rests on your spine (make a pig-snort: it's only an inch behind that. Thanks to JH!) and when your head balances, the face magically relaxes, the eyes see clearer and the breath flows nicer. (Gosh, all that from a piggy noise?). Are your legs stable? Are you wasting subconscious energy and attention on just staying upright? After years of saying I won't use any footstools I'm now using two and loving it (left one high; right low to medium) Too often we want the magic bullet of "How do I hold my hands" or "How do I keep from playing the wrong _?". It's never that easy. We are part of the instrument, as a performer we're part of the music and our insight is extension of the composer. The adventure continues, eh? Sean At 12:33 PM 10/17/04, you wrote: >Dear List: > >There has not been a great deal of response on the subject of practice. This >leads me to believe that people are uninterested or are doing what I did for >many years, specifically, playing the same piece over and over till I >thought I got it rightwhich was seldom, if the truth be known. > >Due to an auto accident I had to put the Lute down for an extended length of >time measured in years. When I got back to the instrument I discovered it >was like starting over, no real surprise there. I could read as well >as I did before but my hands would not cooperate and I had to reeducate >them. After a time of trying to play everything I formerly knew how to play >I realized that I must do something different in order to get my music back. >Continuing to play pieces over and over was not working, the mechanics were >bad and the tone was worse. I knew I had to go back to basics. > >How I got from that point to this point is a long and probably boring story >for most on the list. However what I am doing now does work and has made >learning a particular new composition less a matter of trial and error with >endless corrections of learned mistakes. It is this last point that I think >separates the Paul O'Dettes of the world from the rest of us ham-fisted >dilettantes. As I mentioned earlier, many times in our efforts to learn a >piece we will make the same mistakes in the same places and convince >ourselves that eventually we will get it right
Practice Habits
Dear List: There has not been a great deal of response on the subject of practice. This leads me to believe that people are uninterested or are doing what I did for many years, specifically, playing the same piece over and over till I thought I got it rightwhich was seldom, if the truth be known. Due to an auto accident I had to put the Lute down for an extended length of time measured in years. When I got back to the instrument I discovered it was like starting over, no real surprise there. I could read as well as I did before but my hands would not cooperate and I had to reeducate them. After a time of trying to play everything I formerly knew how to play I realized that I must do something different in order to get my music back. Continuing to play pieces over and over was not working, the mechanics were bad and the tone was worse. I knew I had to go back to basics. How I got from that point to this point is a long and probably boring story for most on the list. However what I am doing now does work and has made learning a particular new composition less a matter of trial and error with endless corrections of learned mistakes. It is this last point that I think separates the Paul O'Dettes of the world from the rest of us ham-fisted dilettantes. As I mentioned earlier, many times in our efforts to learn a piece we will make the same mistakes in the same places and convince ourselves that eventually we will get it right as we gain proficiency with the music. The truth is it is more likely we will learn the mistake and mentally ignore it as we have practiced to do. When I start out to learn a piece I sight read over it a number of times till I have a more or less cursory understanding of what it is supposed to sound like and I understand somewhat the voicing. This is not too difficult in learning a good deal of English music but it can be difficult in a lot of the Italian pieces which tend to be more contrapuntal in texture. I then pick out the areas where I did not understand what was going on and go over them individually to study the mechanics. I repeat these sections over and over till I am able to determine I have it some degree or that there may be a mistake in the tablature. I then practice this same section in context to determine the mechanical flow. This can be a real stumbling point with a lot of people. It is possible to learn a little self standing passage, and to learn all of the material around it, but bringing the two together can cause a great deal of difficulty. This kind of thing is often resolved by utilizing what one could call uncommon fingering which will allow a flowing of movement from one point to another with a minimum of movement and effort. But in order to accomplish this it becomes essential to repeat this contextual flow over and over until you know it better than the rest of the composition. This process is repeated with every hurdle within a composition. I will sometimes write down these little snippets in a separate book and use them as warm up exercises. I will go through a composition and pick these things out and work on them till I am more familiar with the problems than I am with the rest of the piece. When I start to get the problems down then it is time to put them back into the composition. There is a good deal more but I want to see what others have to say. Vance Wood. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: AW: Practice habits.
>Can somebody tell me where I can read this O'Dette-Interview? I couldn't >find it in the internet. > >Elias I'll put it up on my home page AFTER it appears in the LSA Quarterly. (Don't want to steal anyone's thunder). You can read the interview with Robert Barto there which has already appeared in the Lute News and the Japanese Lute Society Newsletter and one with Jacob Heringman there which apparently won't be printed in either of the English newsletters but will (if it hasn't already) appear in the Japanese one. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/luteinfo.html -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Practice habits
Mr O'Dette saying so long ago about all the exercises he has invented brings to mind that he and Pat O'Brien have been working on a book of technique and exercises for lutenists. Please encourage them in their endeavor! When Mr O'Brien gives workshops he generously passes out stacks of pages of exercises which are a part of this future book. Write them and say, "Please publish!!" Best, Candace Dr. Candace A. Magner [EMAIL PROTECTED] homepage http://clik.to/candace To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Practice habits.
Dear All, I would very much like to read Ed's interview, but as I'm not an LSA member I might not get to see it. Guess I should join! For comparison purposes I have pasted below a snippet from an interview the master gave to the English magazine "Guitar" in May 1980 - hope it's of interest. This interview was given not too long after the release of his landmark album of Dowland and Byrd which was quite jaw-dropping at the time. For me it was the first time a player using real lute technique went beyond the benchmark set by Julian Bream. With this practice regime it's not hard to see how he did it! Best wishes, Denys Interviewer: How do lutenists generally develop their technique; how do they become virtuosi? Paul O' Dette: " I think unfortunately most lutenists just play pieces. They start playing the lute and they hear all this music that they want to play, then next thing they dive head first into a Dowland fantasie. I think the lute is in dire need of a good pedagogical method. For myself I just invent hundreds of exercises, similar to things that I did on the guitar: chromatic exercises, string crossing exercises, the famous 24 combinations for the left hand and speed drills for the right hand. And I do a lot of slow practice and I take pieces that I'm playing, isolate the problems and then turn them into a big exercise." - Original Message - From: "Ed Durbrow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Daniel Shoskes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 11:22 AM Subject: Re: Practice habits. > >Ah, now an interesting question would be whether the routine followed by > >someone like O'Dette would also be applicable to a mere mortal like me. > > His approach is widely applicable, I believe. > > >Ed, did his routine differ with Baroque lute, for which he is more of a > >"beginner"? > > He didn't answer that specifically because I didn't think to ask it. > Would have been a good question. I don't think he's a beginner at > anything he plays. In fact, I might have mentioned that someone (Bill > Bowers) roomed with him ages ago at a summer school or something and > told me he would toss off a couple of Bach suites to warm up. > > You will learn something about practicing when you read the > interview. He's said it all before, I'm sure, in countless summer > schools. It's applying it that is hard. Maybe that's the difference > (along with raw talent) between us and him. > > cheers, > > PS, Glad people are posting again. This list actually inspires me. > Maybe I'll sacrifice some of my valuable TV time for a few moments of > lute practice. :-) > -- > Ed Durbrow > Saitama, Japan > http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
Re: Practice habits.
--- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.773 / Virus Database: 520 - Release Date: 10/5/2004 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Practice habits.
>Dear Ed: > >Of course more is better-but is it really??? It is possible to >continually play the same thing wrong over and over again thinking that if I >play it enough times I'll get it right. In the end that thought coursing >through your mind numbs you to the fact that an error has become part of >your performance. I used to think this way, mostly because I just enjoyed >playing the Lute and the thought of working out some difficulties seemed >boring to me. Don't misunderstand, I still believe more is better but I >have found it is not enough to just play a lot, you have to play smart. Okay, so much for the glib answer. I feel I'm just starting to make my practice more efficient. It's hard work. Harder than performing. Lots of analyzing, experimenting, isolating, doing things in extremes or odd ways. The main thing is to pick smaller chunks to work on: know the chunk musically and physically, - for me. I think I posted before the story about Rachmoninof practicing The Minute Waltz to the list. The gist of it was that he practiced VERY slowly. cheers, -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Practice habits.
>Ah, now an interesting question would be whether the routine followed by >someone like O'Dette would also be applicable to a mere mortal like me. His approach is widely applicable, I believe. >Ed, did his routine differ with Baroque lute, for which he is more of a >"beginner"? He didn't answer that specifically because I didn't think to ask it. Would have been a good question. I don't think he's a beginner at anything he plays. In fact, I might have mentioned that someone (Bill Bowers) roomed with him ages ago at a summer school or something and told me he would toss off a couple of Bach suites to warm up. You will learn something about practicing when you read the interview. He's said it all before, I'm sure, in countless summer schools. It's applying it that is hard. Maybe that's the difference (along with raw talent) between us and him. cheers, PS, Glad people are posting again. This list actually inspires me. Maybe I'll sacrifice some of my valuable TV time for a few moments of lute practice. :-) -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Practice habits.
At 08:08 PM 10/14/2004, Vance Wood wrote: >Don't misunderstand, I still believe more is better but I >have found it is not enough to just play a lot, you have to play smart. Drat! I'm doomed to mediocrity. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Practice habits.
Dear Ed: Of course more is better-but is it really??? It is possible to continually play the same thing wrong over and over again thinking that if I play it enough times I'll get it right. In the end that thought coursing through your mind numbs you to the fact that an error has become part of your performance. I used to think this way, mostly because I just enjoyed playing the Lute and the thought of working out some difficulties seemed boring to me. Don't misunderstand, I still believe more is better but I have found it is not enough to just play a lot, you have to play smart. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: "Ed Durbrow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 10:07 PM Subject: Re: Practice habits. > >Someone mentioned practice. This is a subject I not have seen covered here > >and it might be worth going over to see the different ways people go about > >developing technique and gaining competence with a particular composition. > > > >Vance Wood. > > More is better. :-) > -- > Ed Durbrow > Saitama, Japan > http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
Re: Practice habits.
Dear Vance and All:
One of the best pieces of advice I ever got was from Federico Marincola,
who said I should always strive to achieve good tone while practicing, and
never practice casually without paying attention to tone.
Those with experience in athletics may have heard coaches admonish players
to practice with the same focus and intensity they bring to games, and I
think this applies to music practice as well. Paying close attention to
fundamentals in practice means those things are more likely to take care of
themselves in a concert or recital.
It's easy after a hard day at work to sit down and just play for your own
pleasure. However, taking a moment to focus on the goals of your practice
before beginning can help a lot.
Another teacher -- I can't recall whom at the moment -- advised
exaggerating the dynamics of a piece when practicing for a performance.
This can help the final performance because players tend to "hold back" on
the dynamics when playing in front of an audience.
Jim
"Vance Wood"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: "lute list" <[EMAIL
PROTECTED]>
net> cc:
Subject: Practice habits.
10/13/2004 11:16
PM
Someone mentioned practice. This is a subject I not have seen covered
here
and it might be worth going over to see the different ways people go about
developing technique and gaining competence with a particular composition.
Vance Wood.
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Practice habits.
Ah, now an interesting question would be whether the routine followed by someone like O'Dette would also be applicable to a mere mortal like me. Ed, did his routine differ with Baroque lute, for which he is more of a "beginner"? >In the Lute Society of >In the Lute Society of America Quarterly that we have just mailed out, >there is quite a long interview with Paul O'Dette where he talks about >the >way he goes about practicing. The interview was done by Ed Durbrow. >Nancy Carlin >LSA Administrator > > >At 08:16 PM 10/13/2004 -0700, Vance Wood wrote: >>Someone mentioned practice. This is a subject I not have seen covered >here >>and it might be worth going over to see the different ways people go >about >>developing technique and gaining competence with a particular >composition. >> >>Vance Wood. >> >>To get on or off this list see list information at >>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >Nancy Carlin Associates >P.O. Box 6499 >Concord, CA 94524 USA >phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582 >web site - www.nancycarlinassociates.com > >Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA >web site - http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org > >--
Re: Practice habits.
In the Lute Society of America Quarterly that we have just mailed out, there is quite a long interview with Paul O'Dette where he talks about the way he goes about practicing. The interview was done by Ed Durbrow. Nancy Carlin LSA Administrator At 08:16 PM 10/13/2004 -0700, Vance Wood wrote: >Someone mentioned practice. This is a subject I not have seen covered here >and it might be worth going over to see the different ways people go about >developing technique and gaining competence with a particular composition. > >Vance Wood. > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Nancy Carlin Associates P.O. Box 6499 Concord, CA 94524 USA phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582 web site - www.nancycarlinassociates.com Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA web site - http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org --
Re: Practice habits.
>Someone mentioned practice. This is a subject I not have seen covered here >and it might be worth going over to see the different ways people go about >developing technique and gaining competence with a particular composition. > >Vance Wood. More is better. :-) -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Practice habits.
Someone mentioned practice. This is a subject I not have seen covered here and it might be worth going over to see the different ways people go about developing technique and gaining competence with a particular composition. Vance Wood. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
