Re: [OT] : Fumeux
Hi Berndt, Stuart and All, good to know there is a modern edition of Ars Subtilior - Chantilly codex. I'll try to get hold of it, but it probably won't be easy. Do you by any chance have the full particulars incl. ISDN? If there is more text than the one Stuart sent, it would be interesting to read what more Johannes Symonis Hasprois has to say in his Puis que je suis fumeux. (The piece sounds more like Charlie Parker than something from the 1380's! This is definitely novel-writing and/or movie-making material. I don't speak french though... Is there possibly any more info about this composer (and Solage, or possible other fumeurs)? I'd really like to know more about their movement. Arto hinted at antipapal Avignon. There must be books about this? What is it with these French...Rabelais, Baudelaire, a.s.o...a.s.f... Best Regards Göran - Original Message - From: Bernd Haegemann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 6:22 PM Subject: [OT] : Fumeux Dear all, in fact we don't know whether smoking sth. was involved. Also the editor of the Chantilly* codex in the series Polyphonic Music in the Fourteenth Century (vols. 18 19, ) (1981) wasn't really sure, as he wrote in his comment to puis que je suis fumeux that there is another song connected to fuming in the Ms. (Fumeux fume par fumee). * Yes! It's the time of the famous Duc de Berry and his Tres Riches Heures, also kept in Chantilly. http://humanities.uchicago.edu/images/heures/heures.html One would have liked to know what Mr. Greene thought that fuming is :-) What is the difference between fuming and fuming? ;-) But we know that there was an eccentrical club of writers and composers in Paris, called Les Fumeux. As it were, they derived the name from a certain Jean Fumeux - but is this name perhaps an allusion?? Eugene Deschamps (one of them, as it seems) said in his Charte des fumeux (1368): Ilz parlent variablement Ilz se demainent sotement ..Pour ce que dame Outrecuidance Maine chascun d'eulx a sa dance Folie par la main les tient Orgueil les gouverne et soutient Et le vest de riches joyaulx Et Jeunesse, qui est si beaux Leur prie, amonneste et ennorte Que chascuns folement se porte. I find it very fascinating to see, how modern those composers and writers were, how they wrote manifestos of their new art and how quickly the ars subtilior style spread over Europe: we can say roughly that it developed after Machaut's death in 1377 and lasted only until the first years of the 15th century. But we find sources from Britain to Cyprus. And the composers were well aware of the complexity of their new works, a certain Guido lets a Rondeau start with the blessing: Dieux gart qui bien le chantera May God guard him , who sings this well... :-) There is also a nice parallele to miniature painting: there are virelais with onomatopoetical settings of birds' voices and for the first time we find depiction of nature in book miniature painting. I remember how we played a good deal of the Chantilly and Modena mss. on saxophones. There was a lot of smoking and drinking, but only afterwards, the stuff is too complicated :-) Best wishes Bernd (Does somebody really wants the texts? I could type them from the edition.) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.6 - Release Date: 08/06/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.6 - Release Date: 08/06/2005
RE: [OT] : Fumeux
Check the text of Puisque je suis fumeux: Ceulx qui dient que j'ay teste fumee Par fumee, je les desmentiroye; Et non pourquant jamais ne fumeroye; De fumee qui fust contre rayson. [Those who call me smoke-head, By reason of smoke, I would prove them wrong. And yet never would I smoke Any smoke that might be against reason.] Whatever these guys might have been smoking, it is strongly implied that they had the hard stuff easily available. -Original Message- From: Bernd Haegemann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 11:23 AM To: lute list Subject: [OT] : Fumeux Dear all, in fact we don't know whether smoking sth. was involved. Also the editor of the Chantilly* codex in the series Polyphonic Music in the Fourteenth Century (vols. 18 19, ) (1981) wasn't really sure, as he wrote in his comment to puis que je suis fumeux that there is another song connected to fuming in the Ms. (Fumeux fume par fumee). * Yes! It's the time of the famous Duc de Berry and his Tres Riches Heures, also kept in Chantilly. http://humanities.uchicago.edu/images/heures/heures.html One would have liked to know what Mr. Greene thought that fuming is :-) What is the difference between fuming and fuming? ;-) But we know that there was an eccentrical club of writers and composers in Paris, called Les Fumeux. As it were, they derived the name from a certain Jean Fumeux - but is this name perhaps an allusion?? Eugene Deschamps (one of them, as it seems) said in his Charte des fumeux (1368): Ilz parlent variablement Ilz se demainent sotement .Pour ce que dame Outrecuidance Maine chascun d'eulx a sa dance Folie par la main les tient Orgueil les gouverne et soutient Et le vest de riches joyaulx Et Jeunesse, qui est si beaux Leur prie, amonneste et ennorte Que chascuns folement se porte. I find it very fascinating to see, how modern those composers and writers were, how they wrote manifestos of their new art and how quickly the ars subtilior style spread over Europe: we can say roughly that it developed after Machaut's death in 1377 and lasted only until the first years of the 15th century. But we find sources from Britain to Cyprus. And the composers were well aware of the complexity of their new works, a certain Guido lets a Rondeau start with the blessing: Dieux gart qui bien le chantera May God guard him , who sings this well... :-) There is also a nice parallele to miniature painting: there are virelais with onomatopoetical settings of birds' voices and for the first time we find depiction of nature in book miniature painting. I remember how we played a good deal of the Chantilly and Modena mss. on saxophones. There was a lot of smoking and drinking, but only afterwards, the stuff is too complicated :-) Best wishes Bernd (Does somebody really wants the texts? I could type them from the edition.) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: [OT] : Fumeux
Wow, now that's really odd. This is very similar to some Greek Rebetika lyrics I'm familiar with. Rebetika frequently deals with smoking of hard drugs as coping with atrocities, such as have your family shot in front of you. Pass the oud! For more on Rebetika check out: http://www.musiq.com/rebetika/http://www.musiq.com/rebetika/ Chad - Original Message - From: Stuart LeBlancmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Bernd Haegemannmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ; lute listmailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 3:44 PM Subject: RE: [OT] : Fumeux Check the text of Puisque je suis fumeux: Ceulx qui dient que j'ay teste fumee Par fumee, je les desmentiroye; Et non pourquant jamais ne fumeroye; De fumee qui fust contre rayson. [Those who call me smoke-head, By reason of smoke, I would prove them wrong. And yet never would I smoke Any smoke that might be against reason.] Whatever these guys might have been smoking, it is strongly implied that they had the hard stuff easily available. -Original Message- From: Bernd Haegemann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 11:23 AM To: lute list Subject: [OT] : Fumeux Dear all, in fact we don't know whether smoking sth. was involved. Also the editor of the Chantilly* codex in the series Polyphonic Music in the Fourteenth Century (vols. 18 19, ) (1981) wasn't really sure, as he wrote in his comment to puis que je suis fumeux that there is another song connected to fuming in the Ms. (Fumeux fume par fumee). * Yes! It's the time of the famous Duc de Berry and his Tres Riches Heures, also kept in Chantilly. http://humanities.uchicago.edu/images/heures/heures.htmlhttp://humanities.uchicago.edu/images/heures/heures.html One would have liked to know what Mr. Greene thought that fuming is :-) What is the difference between fuming and fuming? ;-) But we know that there was an eccentrical club of writers and composers in Paris, called Les Fumeux. As it were, they derived the name from a certain Jean Fumeux - but is this name perhaps an allusion?? Eugene Deschamps (one of them, as it seems) said in his Charte des fumeux (1368): Ilz parlent variablement Ilz se demainent sotement .Pour ce que dame Outrecuidance Maine chascun d'eulx a sa dance Folie par la main les tient Orgueil les gouverne et soutient Et le vest de riches joyaulx Et Jeunesse, qui est si beaux Leur prie, amonneste et ennorte Que chascuns folement se porte. I find it very fascinating to see, how modern those composers and writers were, how they wrote manifestos of their new art and how quickly the ars subtilior style spread over Europe: we can say roughly that it developed after Machaut's death in 1377 and lasted only until the first years of the 15th century. But we find sources from Britain to Cyprus. And the composers were well aware of the complexity of their new works, a certain Guido lets a Rondeau start with the blessing: Dieux gart qui bien le chantera May God guard him , who sings this well... :-) There is also a nice parallele to miniature painting: there are virelais with onomatopoetical settings of birds' voices and for the first time we find depiction of nature in book miniature painting. I remember how we played a good deal of the Chantilly and Modena mss. on saxophones. There was a lot of smoking and drinking, but only afterwards, the stuff is too complicated :-) Best wishes Bernd (Does somebody really wants the texts? I could type them from the edition.) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.htmlhttp://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
