FW: cement
At 08:18 AM 5/19/2005, Arto Wikla wrote: >I doubt that! The Finnish word "viha" is "hate" (noun) in English. ;-) At least vihuela would be a very small hate. But three would make twenty-four! Sorry, couldn't resist Ron (UK) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: cement
'bout pet size ... --- "Eugene C. Braig IV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > At 08:18 AM 5/19/2005, Arto Wikla wrote: > >I doubt that! The Finnish word "viha" is "hate" > (noun) in English. ;-) > > > At least vihuela would be a very small hate. > > Eugene > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > "and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of a creepy crawly..." - Don Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), "Historias de la Conquista del Mayab" by Fra Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm ___ Yahoo! Messenger - want a free and easy way to contact your friends online? http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Re: cement
> At 08:18 AM 5/19/2005, Arto Wikla wrote: >> I doubt that! The Finnish word "viha" is "hate" (noun) in English. ;-) > > > At least vihuela would be a very small hate. > > Eugene Certainly not loud RT http://polyhymnion.org ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: cement
At 08:18 AM 5/19/2005, Arto Wikla wrote: >I doubt that! The Finnish word "viha" is "hate" (noun) in English. ;-) At least vihuela would be a very small hate. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: cement
Dear Manolo and friends, I am surprised, if your friend consulted Corominas, to read that he finds the origins of "vihuela" obscure. Corominas does make a rather good case for deriving "vihuela" from the Latin "fides", string, via fidula, fidicula, vitula, viula, etc. (I cannot remember exactly as I am quoting from memory). In any case, both terms, vihuela and viola, derive from the same root and were even used intercheangaby on occassion from the 15th to the 17th centuries. On the other hand, the spelling varied widely since the written Spanish of the sixteenth century was more phonetic than nowadays when we have adopted the French etymologic rules (but that is another matter). The point is that you will find quite a variety of ways to call the instrument: vihuela, viguela, viyuela, biguela, bihuela, etc. With best wishes, Antonio --- Manolo Laguillo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dear list, dear Mathias, dear Arthur, > > I asked a friend, who teaches linguistics (more > specifically > lexicography) at the university in Madrid. > He said: The suffix "-uelo" (now it is in > masculinum) as a diminuitive > comes from the latin diminuitive form "-olo". The > "o" at the beginning > of "-olo" is short, and therefore diphtongs to "ue" > in spanish. > Then he looked into the main spanish etimologic > dictionary (the > multivolume "Corominas"), and found the recognition > of an ignorance: the > origins of the word "vihuela" are very obscure. My > friend told me that > every time he reads such acceptances of ignorance in > the said dictionary > he takes 'cum grano sali' the etimologies that > follow, because they can > be quite bizarre. > Regarding "-uela" in the case of "vihuela", he does > not think that it > could have a diminuitive meaning. > But he agrees with the possibility of a relationship > between "viola" and > "vihuela". > I told him about "Venezuela" as a diminuitive of > "Venecia" (=Venice), > and he was quite surprised. He said: "OK, toponimics > are not my > speciality..." > > Saludos from Barcelona, > > Manolo Laguillo > > PS By the way, for those with enough fluency in > spanish, there is a > modern edition (not a facsimil, but much better, a > transcription) of the > first edition (1611) of the famous dictionary by > Covarrubias, the first > for the spanish language: > > http://www.altafulla.com/ad_lit/covarrubias.htm > > > > > Mathias Rösel wrote: > > >>>I lack control of Spanish, unfortunately, but > with -uela is a > >>>diminuitive ending, doesn't that suggest that > vihuela is from a word > >>>like VIHA? > >>> > >>> > > > >actually, I was under the impression that *vihuela* > is just another form > >of the word *viola*, with the letter E signifying > the lengthened vowel U > >(vihooola). Once the stress was shifted from U to > E, the last four > >letters have come to resemble the Spanish > diminuitive ending -uela. > > > >Cheers, > > > >Mathias > >-- > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at > >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > > -- > ___ Yahoo! Messenger - want a free and easy way to contact your friends online? http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Re: cement
Dear list, dear Mathias, dear Arthur, I asked a friend, who teaches linguistics (more specifically lexicography) at the university in Madrid. He said: The suffix "-uelo" (now it is in masculinum) as a diminuitive comes from the latin diminuitive form "-olo". The "o" at the beginning of "-olo" is short, and therefore diphtongs to "ue" in spanish. Then he looked into the main spanish etimologic dictionary (the multivolume "Corominas"), and found the recognition of an ignorance: the origins of the word "vihuela" are very obscure. My friend told me that every time he reads such acceptances of ignorance in the said dictionary he takes 'cum grano sali' the etimologies that follow, because they can be quite bizarre. Regarding "-uela" in the case of "vihuela", he does not think that it could have a diminuitive meaning. But he agrees with the possibility of a relationship between "viola" and "vihuela". I told him about "Venezuela" as a diminuitive of "Venecia" (=Venice), and he was quite surprised. He said: "OK, toponimics are not my speciality..." Saludos from Barcelona, Manolo Laguillo PS By the way, for those with enough fluency in spanish, there is a modern edition (not a facsimil, but much better, a transcription) of the first edition (1611) of the famous dictionary by Covarrubias, the first for the spanish language: http://www.altafulla.com/ad_lit/covarrubias.htm Mathias Rösel wrote: >>>I lack control of Spanish, unfortunately, but with -uela is a >>>diminuitive ending, doesn't that suggest that vihuela is from a word >>>like VIHA? >>> >>> > >actually, I was under the impression that *vihuela* is just another form >of the word *viola*, with the letter E signifying the lengthened vowel U >(vihooola). Once the stress was shifted from U to E, the last four >letters have come to resemble the Spanish diminuitive ending -uela. > >Cheers, > >Mathias >-- > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > --
Re: cement
- Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Mathias Rösel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "LUTELIST" Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 5:11 AM Subject: Re: cement > > "Manolo Laguillo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > >> Could it be that "Vihuela" relates with "viola"? I would say yes, > >> absolutely. Vihuela = small (or whatever "-uela" could mean in the > >> spanish Renaissance) viola. > > > > I lack any control of Spanish, unfortunately, but with -uela is a > > diminuitive ending, doesn't that suggest that vihuela is from a word > > like VIHA? > > Mathias > Or BIGA.. Does it suggest an Indo-European or Semitic lineage? > RT I have seen it spelled "biguela" before. How about "Vina" for "Viha". There is a theory that the Romanie-Gypsy were a tribe or even a hired army originally out of India. http://www.thecipher.com/lute-vina-India_2nd-3rdCent.jpg Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: cement
>> I lack control of Spanish, unfortunately, but with -uela is a >> diminuitive ending, doesn't that suggest that vihuela is from a word >> like VIHA? actually, I was under the impression that *vihuela* is just another form of the word *viola*, with the letter E signifying the lengthened vowel U (vihooola). Once the stress was shifted from U to E, the last four letters have come to resemble the Spanish diminuitive ending -uela. Cheers, Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: cement
> Conjecture all you like about the origins of "vihuela", in the end the > vihuela looks like a guitar, is played like a guitar, sounds like a guitar > and is a guitar. The difference between "vihuela" and "guitarra" is no more > than the difference between "violin" and "fiddle". > > David Cameron Åspecially if one lives by the Hudson Bay. RT -- http://polyhymnion.org/torban ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: cement
Conjecture all you like about the origins of "vihuela", in the end the vihuela looks like a guitar, is played like a guitar, sounds like a guitar and is a guitar. The difference between "vihuela" and "guitarra" is no more than the difference between "violin" and "fiddle". David Cameron To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: cement (somewhat OT)
Dear Manolo, Yes, Venzuela is named after Venice, and means "Little Venice". It was settled by German merchants who were active inVenice and had headquarters in the Fondaco dei Tedeschi. Members of the Welser family from Augsburg were mainly responsible for the settlement (if memory serves). The German merchants were also active in the arts, and their funds paid for much artwork in Venice. Domenico Bianchini, whose little lutebook you may know, was apparently associated with them, and he dedicated his lute book to the merchants at the"Fontego Allemanni" (the name in Venetian dialect). Fondaco/Fontego means "hostelry." He may have been asking for more money, because one of the ricercars is based on Josquin's "Faulte d'argent." By profession, Bianchini was an artist, not a professional musician. If you have been to Venice, you may have been in the Fondaco dei Tedeschi,. It is now the main post office, near the Rialto. There was a famous luthier right around the corner, as Mimi Perufo discovered. What's his name? At one time the Fondaco was decorated with frescos by Giorgione andTitian, but they fadded away. And I think Napoleon carted away all of the paintings inside. Those merchants were VERY wealthy. I would suggest that Bribonzuelos would be Spanish for those silent screen kids, "Little Rascals." Greetings from Boston Arthur Ness. - Original Message - From: "Manolo Laguillo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "bill kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "LUTELIST" Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 4:53 AM Subject: Re: cement > dear Bill, > I would not care that much... > I am spanish, and therefore do know quite well my language. > So let me explain you some nice details about the last four letters of > the word "vihuela": > The suffix "-uela" (ending in "a", feminine) is a way of telling the > root (main part of the word) is small, or familiar (cosy?) for the > speaker. So "mozUELA" is a variation of "moza" (= country girl), and > adds a certain meaning to "moza". I am unable to translate that meaning: > my english does not suffice. > Another example, now in masculinum: "bribón (rascally)" is a tender > insult, said without the intention of really offending, and > "bribonzUELO" is even more tender, and apllies to a boy. > Now I am curious about "Venezuela". Does it relate to "Venecia" > (=Venice), and means "small Venice"? I will ask a linguist friend of mine. > Could it be that "Vihuela" relates with "viola"? I would say yes, > absolutely. Vihuela = small (or whatever "-uela" could mean in the > spanish Renaissance) viola. > In any case, the vihuela is a big mysterium. I attended some weeks ago a > lecture from Dinko Fabris about lutenists in Italy in the second part of > the XVI. He disagrees completely with the idea that the lute was not > played here in Spain because it could be associated with the arabs, > simply because nobody could arrive to that equation (lute = arabs) in > the XVI century. It is our equation, not theirs. > But not so long ago this interpretation was quite normal. I leave for > another time commenting about historians, critics, fields of > specialization and "real life"... (perhaps this is the real subject of > your email, is it not?) > By the way, I enjoy your postings... > Have a nice time. > Saludos from Barcelona, > Manolo Laguillo > > > > bill kilpatrick wrote: > >>"temple nuovo" in the search engine produced a macabre >>item about the world premiere of "The People's Temple" >>- a play about mass suicide and religion - which >>turned into a reunion for a small group of jonestown >>survivors and relatives, including jim jones's son but >>not much about mudarra and his baroque ukulele tuning. >> >>all i have is the internet. i didn't study music at >>school and i don't have access to a library - i'm >>totally dependent on you for information. >> >>in all the time that i've been banging on about the >>charango as a "living" instrument, suitable for the >>early music genre, i can't remember one reference to >>"temple nuovo" or a ukulele. >> >>the fact that you knew (collectively - i assume most >>of you know what it means) and i didn't is ignorance >>on my part - which says a lot about me that fact that >>you (collectively) couldn't or wouldn't make the >>association between it and the charango is equally >>revealing about you. >> >>those of you who - for whatever rea
Re: cement
Hi all, On Thursday 19 May 2005 14:38, "Mathias Rösel" wrote: > I lack any control of Spanish, unfortunately, but with -uela is a > diminuitive ending, doesn't that suggest that vihuela is from a word > like VIHA? I doubt that! The Finnish word "viha" is "hate" (noun) in English. ;-) Best wishes, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: cement
> "Manolo Laguillo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: >> Could it be that "Vihuela" relates with "viola"? I would say yes, >> absolutely. Vihuela = small (or whatever "-uela" could mean in the >> spanish Renaissance) viola. > > I lack any control of Spanish, unfortunately, but with -uela is a > diminuitive ending, doesn't that suggest that vihuela is from a word > like VIHA? > Mathias Or BIGA.. Does it suggest an Indo-European or Semitic lineage? RT -- http://polyhymnion.org/torban ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: cement
"Manolo Laguillo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > Could it be that "Vihuela" relates with "viola"? I would say yes, > absolutely. Vihuela = small (or whatever "-uela" could mean in the > spanish Renaissance) viola. I lack any control of Spanish, unfortunately, but with -uela is a diminuitive ending, doesn't that suggest that vihuela is from a word like VIHA? Best wishes, Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: cement
dear Bill, I would not care that much... I am spanish, and therefore do know quite well my language. So let me explain you some nice details about the last four letters of the word "vihuela": The suffix "-uela" (ending in "a", feminine) is a way of telling the root (main part of the word) is small, or familiar (cosy?) for the speaker. So "mozUELA" is a variation of "moza" (= country girl), and adds a certain meaning to "moza". I am unable to translate that meaning: my english does not suffice. Another example, now in masculinum: "bribón (rascally)" is a tender insult, said without the intention of really offending, and "bribonzUELO" is even more tender, and apllies to a boy. Now I am curious about "Venezuela". Does it relate to "Venecia" (=Venice), and means "small Venice"? I will ask a linguist friend of mine. Could it be that "Vihuela" relates with "viola"? I would say yes, absolutely. Vihuela = small (or whatever "-uela" could mean in the spanish Renaissance) viola. In any case, the vihuela is a big mysterium. I attended some weeks ago a lecture from Dinko Fabris about lutenists in Italy in the second part of the XVI. He disagrees completely with the idea that the lute was not played here in Spain because it could be associated with the arabs, simply because nobody could arrive to that equation (lute = arabs) in the XVI century. It is our equation, not theirs. But not so long ago this interpretation was quite normal. I leave for another time commenting about historians, critics, fields of specialization and "real life"... (perhaps this is the real subject of your email, is it not?) By the way, I enjoy your postings... Have a nice time. Saludos from Barcelona, Manolo Laguillo bill kilpatrick wrote: >"temple nuovo" in the search engine produced a macabre >item about the world premiere of "The People's Temple" >- a play about mass suicide and religion - which >turned into a reunion for a small group of jonestown >survivors and relatives, including jim jones's son but >not much about mudarra and his baroque ukulele tuning. > >all i have is the internet. i didn't study music at >school and i don't have access to a library - i'm >totally dependent on you for information. > >in all the time that i've been banging on about the >charango as a "living" instrument, suitable for the >early music genre, i can't remember one reference to >"temple nuovo" or a ukulele. > >the fact that you knew (collectively - i assume most >of you know what it means) and i didn't is ignorance >on my part - which says a lot about me that fact that >you (collectively) couldn't or wouldn't make the >association between it and the charango is equally >revealing about you. > >those of you who - for whatever reason - can not or >will not make the association between the modern >charango and whatever it was that the 16th cent. >europeans in south america referred to as a vihuela >must have the imaginative facility of a sack of >cement. > >one of the two period instrument luthiers that i >corresponded with who were open to this proposal asked >me not to mention his name. while he was in general >agreement about the charango he did NOT want his >opinions aired on the list(s), because - as he stated >" ... you know how it is." > >i didn't. > >i look forward to corresponding with you in the future >and learn whatever it is you might care to share. >further comment on the charango would be superfluous. > >- bill > > > >"and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of a creepy crawly..." - Don >Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), "Historias de la Conquista del Mayab" by Fra >Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: >http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm > > > >___ >How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday >snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > --
