Re: Paste Recent - wrong
On Wed, Jul 02, 2003 at 12:03:16AM +0200, Lars Gullik Bj?nnes wrote: Open Recent means to me Recently opened documents Ah, but why ? It's because it's in the File menu and (most of) the surrounding actions operate on documents or files. Similarly the Edit menu generally operates on the current selection or the implicit current selection identified by the blinking cursor. So the user inside this menu will have the notion of document selection in mind. Paste extends along the time axis for selection by one step. Paste Recent extends further along the time axis. But we also have a document axis, namely traversal and selection through the document. The user's concepts for this are position and selection in a general sense. The user's concepts for the time axis is categorised by words such as recent etc. This is exactly why re-using the word Select in this context will lead to momentary confusion. No user is stupid enough to be baffled by this permanently, *but* users are humans, and even the most minor of confusions is enough to lead to a general feeling of clunkiness. What do you think of the Pick and Paste proposal? It's preferable to Select and Paste. regards, john
Re: Paste Recent - wrong
On Wed, Jul 02, 2003 at 12:03:16AM +0200, Lars Gullik Bj?nnes wrote: > "Open Recent" means to me "Recently opened documents" Ah, but why ? It's because it's in the File menu and (most of) the surrounding actions operate on documents or files. Similarly the Edit menu generally operates on the current selection or the implicit current selection identified by the blinking cursor. So the user inside this menu will have the notion of "document selection" in mind. Paste extends along the time axis for selection by one step. Paste Recent extends further along the time axis. But we also have a document axis, namely traversal and selection through the document. The user's concepts for this are "position" and "selection" in a general sense. The user's concepts for the time axis is categorised by words such as "recent" etc. This is exactly why re-using the word "Select" in this context will lead to momentary confusion. No user is stupid enough to be baffled by this permanently, *but* users are humans, and even the most minor of confusions is enough to lead to a general feeling of "clunkiness". > What do you think of the "Pick and Paste" proposal? It's preferable to "Select and Paste". regards, john
Re: Paste Recent - wrong
On Mon, Jun 30, 2003 at 01:58:46PM +0200, Andre Poenitz wrote: Lars SO IMO Paste Recent is utterly misnamed. Unless I get strong Lars objections and well founded objections I am going to change this Lars to Select and Paste. I've already covered why I think it's wrong, and Alfredo has mentioned it too. Wait until John is back, so that has has an occasion to give strong and well founded objections... I'd give you 70/100 for that ;-} Why not just let Lars commit what he wants and John change it later if he wants etc. There won't be consensus anyway. Well Lars is boss. My personal preference (Juergen's suggestion) and rationale are known, I'm not going to kick up a fuss again... regards, john
Re: Paste Recent - wrong
On Sun, Jun 29, 2003 at 01:42:50PM +0200, Lars Gullik Bj?nnes wrote: There is nothing in common between Open Recent and Paste Recent, OR has a list of recently opened documents. PR has a list of recently copied and cut selections, not a list of recently pasted selections. The linguistic implication of a submenu is finish the sentence (action). Open Recent means Open Recent [Document] blah.lyx. Paste Recent means Paste Recent [selection that starts with] blah de blah... The verb in this sentence does not refer to the object of the action - that's what the submenu is. The verb refers to the *action itself*: namely, Open, or Paste. Now I'll shut up ... john
Re: Paste Recent - wrong
John Levon [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | On Sun, Jun 29, 2003 at 01:42:50PM +0200, Lars Gullik Bj?nnes wrote: | | There is nothing in common between Open Recent and Paste Recent, | OR has a list of recently opened documents. PR has a list of recently | copied and cut selections, not a list of recently pasted selections. | | The linguistic implication of a submenu is finish the sentence | (action). | | Open Recent means Open Recent [Document] blah.lyx. Paste Recent | means Paste Recent [selection that starts with] blah de blah... Open Recent means to me Recently opened documents Paste Recent follows same pattern Recently pasted selections(cuts) and this is not true. | The verb in this sentence does not refer to the object of the action - | that's what the submenu is. The verb refers to the *action itself*: | namely, Open, or Paste. but in the case of paste, the verb is not really paste... but cut/copied. | Now I'll shut up ... Please don't. What do you think of the Pick and Paste proposal? (Pick then Paste?) (Pick for Paste?) -- Lgb
Re: Paste Recent - wrong
John Levon [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | Open Recent means Open Recent [Document] blah.lyx. Paste Recent | means Paste Recent [selection that starts with] blah de blah... To me this seems almost seem like a ad-hoc explanation tuned to agree with your opinions. Note that you add-on to Paste Recent almost is a whole sentence in itself... not exactly self evident. -- Lgb
Re: Paste Recent - wrong
On Mon, Jun 30, 2003 at 01:58:46PM +0200, Andre Poenitz wrote: > > Lars> SO IMO "Paste Recent" is utterly misnamed. Unless I get strong > > Lars> objections and well founded objections I am going to change this > > Lars> to "Select and Paste". I've already covered why I think it's wrong, and Alfredo has mentioned it too. > > Wait until John is back, so that has has an occasion to give strong > > and well founded objections... > > I'd give you 70/100 for that ;-} > > Why not just let Lars commit what he wants and John change it later if he > wants etc. There won't be consensus anyway. Well Lars is boss. My personal preference (Juergen's suggestion) and rationale are known, I'm not going to kick up a fuss again... regards, john
Re: Paste Recent - wrong
On Sun, Jun 29, 2003 at 01:42:50PM +0200, Lars Gullik Bj?nnes wrote: > There is nothing in common between "Open Recent" and "Paste Recent", > OR has a list of recently opened documents. PR has a list of recently > copied and cut selections, not a list of recently pasted selections. The linguistic implication of a submenu is "finish the sentence (action)". "Open Recent" means "Open Recent [Document] blah.lyx". "Paste Recent" means "Paste Recent [selection that starts with] blah de blah..." The verb in this sentence does not refer to the object of the action - that's what the submenu is. The verb refers to the *action itself*: namely, Open, or Paste. Now I'll shut up ... john
Re: Paste Recent - wrong
John Levon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
| On Sun, Jun 29, 2003 at 01:42:50PM +0200, Lars Gullik Bj?nnes wrote:
|
| > There is nothing in common between "Open Recent" and "Paste Recent",
| > OR has a list of recently opened documents. PR has a list of recently
| > copied and cut selections, not a list of recently pasted selections.
|
| The linguistic implication of a submenu is "finish the sentence
| (action)".
|
| "Open Recent" means "Open Recent [Document] blah.lyx". "Paste Recent"
| means "Paste Recent [selection that starts with] blah de blah..."
"Open Recent" means to me "Recently opened documents"
"Paste Recent" follows same pattern "Recently pasted selections(cuts)"
and this is not true.
| The verb in this sentence does not refer to the object of the action -
| that's what the submenu is. The verb refers to the *action itself*:
| namely, Open, or Paste.
but in the case of paste, the verb is not really paste... but
cut/copied.
| Now I'll shut up ...
Please don't.
What do you think of the "Pick and Paste" proposal?
("Pick then Paste"?)
("Pick for Paste"?)
--
Lgb
Re: Paste Recent - wrong
John Levon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: | "Open Recent" means "Open Recent [Document] blah.lyx". "Paste Recent" | means "Paste Recent [selection that starts with] blah de blah..." To me this seems almost seem like a ad-hoc explanation tuned to agree with your opinions. Note that you add-on to "Paste Recent" almost is a whole sentence in itself... not exactly self evident. -- Lgb
Re: Paste Recent - wrong
Garst R. Reese wrote: What's wrong with: Paste C-v Paste... Tha answer I got to this: dithering. I didn't dare to ask more... I would put Pick Paste, but partially because it sounds funny. ;^) Regards, Alfredo
Re: Paste Recent - wrong
Lars == Lars Gullik Bjønnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Lars SO IMO Paste Recent is utterly misnamed. Unless I get strong Lars objections and well founded objections I am going to change this Lars to Select and Paste. Wait until John is back, so that has has an occasion to give strong and well founded objections... Pick Paste is not bad. I can see the announcement ``The new LyX. Now with PickPaste(tm) technology!'' JMarc
Re: Paste Recent - wrong
On Mon, Jun 30, 2003 at 01:52:59PM +0200, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: Lars == Lars Gullik Bjønnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Lars SO IMO Paste Recent is utterly misnamed. Unless I get strong Lars objections and well founded objections I am going to change this Lars to Select and Paste. Wait until John is back, so that has has an occasion to give strong and well founded objections... I'd give you 70/100 for that ;-} Why not just let Lars commit what he wants and John change it later if he wants etc. There won't be consensus anyway. It's annoying to have such 'almost finished' stuff lying around especially if it piles up until it doesn't apply anymore. Pick Paste is not bad. I can see the announcement ``The new LyX. Now with PickPaste(tm) technology!'' [PickPaste is fine with me, too...] Andre' -- Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one. (T. Jefferson or B. Franklin or both...)
Re: Paste Recent - wrong
Andre Poenitz wrote: Why not just let Lars commit what he wants and John change it later if he wants etc. There won't be consensus anyway. And some more users on the devel front may comment, since it is then more visible what this discussion is actually all about ;). R.
Re: Paste Recent - wrong
Garst R. Reese wrote: > What's wrong with: > Paste C-v > Paste... > Tha answer I got to this: dithering. I didn't dare to ask more... I would put "Pick & Paste", but partially because it sounds funny. ;^) Regards, Alfredo
Re: Paste Recent - wrong
> "Lars" == Lars Gullik Bjønnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Lars> SO IMO "Paste Recent" is utterly misnamed. Unless I get strong Lars> objections and well founded objections I am going to change this Lars> to "Select and Paste". Wait until John is back, so that has has an occasion to give strong and well founded objections... Pick & Paste is not bad. I can see the announcement ``The new LyX. Now with Pick(tm) technology!'' JMarc
Re: Paste Recent - wrong
On Mon, Jun 30, 2003 at 01:52:59PM +0200, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: > > "Lars" == Lars Gullik Bjønnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > Lars> SO IMO "Paste Recent" is utterly misnamed. Unless I get strong > Lars> objections and well founded objections I am going to change this > Lars> to "Select and Paste". > > Wait until John is back, so that has has an occasion to give strong > and well founded objections... I'd give you 70/100 for that ;-} Why not just let Lars commit what he wants and John change it later if he wants etc. There won't be consensus anyway. It's annoying to have such 'almost finished' stuff lying around especially if it piles up until it doesn't apply anymore. > Pick & Paste is not bad. I can see the announcement > ``The new LyX. Now with Pick(tm) technology!'' [Pick is fine with me, too...] Andre' -- Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one. (T. Jefferson or B. Franklin or both...)
Re: Paste Recent - wrong
Andre Poenitz wrote: > > Why not just let Lars commit what he wants and John change it later if he > wants etc. There won't be consensus anyway. And some more users on the devel front may comment, since it is then more visible what this discussion is actually all about ;). R.
Paste Recent - wrong
There is nothing in common between Open Recent and Paste Recent, OR has a list of recently opened documents. PR has a list of recently copied and cut selections, not a list of recently pasted selections. SO IMO Paste Recent is utterly misnamed. Unless I get strong objections and well founded objections I am going to change this to Select and Paste. -- Lgb
Re: Paste Recent - wrong
Lars Gullik Bjnnes wrote: SO IMO Paste Recent is utterly misnamed. Unless I get strong objections and well founded objections I am going to change this to Select and Paste. I find that the select word is confusing in this context, because it seems to refer to the action of selection (in the workarea). Think about how common is the action select and cut for instance. Regards, Alfredo
Re: Paste Recent - wrong
Alfredo Braunstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: | | SO IMO Paste Recent is utterly misnamed. Unless I get strong | objections and well founded objections I am going to change this to | Select and Paste. | | I find that the select word is confusing in this context, because it seems | to refer to the action of selection (in the workarea). Think about how | common is the action select and cut for instance. And how would you imaginge Select and Cut working from a menu? What would it do? Select and Paste from a menu otoh... I am not putting this in the well founded box. -- Lgb
Re: Paste Recent - wrong
Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: There is nothing in common between Open Recent and Paste Recent, OR has a list of recently opened documents. PR has a list of recently copied and cut selections, not a list of recently pasted selections. SO IMO Paste Recent is utterly misnamed. Unless I get strong objections and well founded objections I am going to change this to Select and Paste. -- Lgb What's wrong with: Paste C-v Paste... ? Garst
Re: Paste Recent - wrong
Garst R. Reese [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: | | There is nothing in common between Open Recent and Paste Recent, | OR has a list of recently opened documents. PR has a list of recently | copied and cut selections, not a list of recently pasted selections. | | SO IMO Paste Recent is utterly misnamed. Unless I get strong | objections and well founded objections I am going to change this to | Select and Paste. | | -- | Lgb | What's wrong with: | Paste C-v | Paste... | | ? IMHO too similar. but it is better than Recent -- Lgb
Re: Paste Recent - wrong
Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: Garst R. Reese [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | What's wrong with: | Paste C-v | Paste... | | ? IMHO too similar. but it is better than Recent -- Lgb Well, I'm wondering why we have both. C-v could bring up the list if it there are more than one items, otherwise paste. I'm also wondering how long the list of items can grow. For this feature to be complete, I think we would need: Copy Item Cut Item Paste Item Remove Item in addition to the old Copy, Cut, Paste, which would not put an item on the history list. Garst
Re: Paste Recent - wrong
Garst R. Reese [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: | | Garst R. Reese [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | | What's wrong with: | | Paste C-v | | Paste... | | | | ? | | IMHO too similar. | | but it is better than Recent | | -- | Lgb | Well, I'm wondering why we have both. C-v could bring up the list if it | there are more than one items, otherwise paste. I disagree. I would imagine that in 95% of the cases you want to paste what you just cut or copied. And you should not have to use the menus for that or more than one key-combo. | I'm also wondering how | long the list of items can grow. Hardcoded to 10 for now, I am planning to increase that to 20. | For this feature to be complete, I | think we would need: | Copy Item | Cut Item | Paste Item | Remove Item | in addition to the old Copy, Cut, Paste, which would not put an item on | the history list. I disagree. No need to make this more complicated. -- Lgb
Paste Recent - wrong
There is nothing in common between "Open Recent" and "Paste Recent", OR has a list of recently opened documents. PR has a list of recently copied and cut selections, not a list of recently pasted selections. SO IMO "Paste Recent" is utterly misnamed. Unless I get strong objections and well founded objections I am going to change this to "Select and Paste". -- Lgb
Re: Paste Recent - wrong
Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: > SO IMO "Paste Recent" is utterly misnamed. Unless I get strong > objections and well founded objections I am going to change this to > "Select and Paste". I find that the "select" word is confusing in this context, because it seems to refer to the action of selection (in the workarea). Think about how common is the action "select and cut" for instance. Regards, Alfredo
Re: Paste Recent - wrong
Alfredo Braunstein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: | Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: | | > SO IMO "Paste Recent" is utterly misnamed. Unless I get strong | > objections and well founded objections I am going to change this to | > "Select and Paste". | | I find that the "select" word is confusing in this context, because it seems | to refer to the action of selection (in the workarea). Think about how | common is the action "select and cut" for instance. And how would you imaginge "Select and Cut" working from a menu? What would it do? "Select and Paste" from a menu otoh... I am not putting this in the "well founded" box. -- Lgb
Re: Paste Recent - wrong
Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: > > There is nothing in common between "Open Recent" and "Paste Recent", > OR has a list of recently opened documents. PR has a list of recently > copied and cut selections, not a list of recently pasted selections. > > SO IMO "Paste Recent" is utterly misnamed. Unless I get strong > objections and well founded objections I am going to change this to > "Select and Paste". > > -- > Lgb What's wrong with: Paste C-v Paste... > ? Garst
Re: Paste Recent - wrong
"Garst R. Reese" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: | Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: | > | > There is nothing in common between "Open Recent" and "Paste Recent", | > OR has a list of recently opened documents. PR has a list of recently | > copied and cut selections, not a list of recently pasted selections. | > | > SO IMO "Paste Recent" is utterly misnamed. Unless I get strong | > objections and well founded objections I am going to change this to | > "Select and Paste". | > | > -- | > Lgb | What's wrong with: | Paste C-v | Paste... > | | ? IMHO too similar. but it is better than "Recent" -- Lgb
Re: Paste Recent - wrong
Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: > > "Garst R. Reese" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > | What's wrong with: > | Paste C-v > | Paste... > > | > | ? > > IMHO too similar. > > but it is better than "Recent" > > -- > Lgb Well, I'm wondering why we have both. C-v could bring up the list if it there are more than one items, otherwise paste. I'm also wondering how long the list of items can grow. For this feature to be complete, I think we would need: Copy Item Cut Item Paste Item > Remove Item > in addition to the old Copy, Cut, Paste, which would not put an item on the history list. Garst
Re: Paste Recent - wrong
"Garst R. Reese" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: | Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: | > | > "Garst R. Reese" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: | > | What's wrong with: | > | Paste C-v | > | Paste... > | > | | > | ? | > | > IMHO too similar. | > | > but it is better than "Recent" | > | > -- | > Lgb | Well, I'm wondering why we have both. C-v could bring up the list if it | there are more than one items, otherwise paste. I disagree. I would imagine that in 95% of the cases you want to paste what you just cut or copied. And you should not have to use the menus for that or more than one key-combo. | I'm also wondering how | long the list of items can grow. Hardcoded to 10 for now, I am planning to increase that to 20. | For this feature to be complete, I | think we would need: | Copy Item | Cut Item | Paste Item > | Remove Item > | in addition to the old Copy, Cut, Paste, which would not put an item on | the history list. I disagree. No need to make this more complicated. -- Lgb
